Wario's Match-Ups!

[LOE1]

i'll go with the majority and say +1

 

[xzx]

I wouldn't say this MU is +1 in Wario's favour. I think it's actually even. Lucario has disjointed range and a great aerial game, which is a pain for Wario. The aura boost is scary - once it reaches 170% or more, his (aura) power increases, which means we have to kill him before that happens. Staling our killing moves against him is really dangerous, because if we can't kill him when he reaches his power increasal level called the Aura Boost, we will mostly die before he does (excluding waft kill). Waft should be the main move for KOing him, so we need to charge it (Wario has the tools for doing so). Wario can "camp" Lucario until he gets a waft. Tires are good against his recovery (and so is the bike), but not against him in general since he can just Double Team or use aura moves to eliminate them. This MU is weird and I'm not so experienced in it, so I can't provide more. We have killing power and camp (and maybe off stage game), and Lucario has disjointed range and increased power due to aura boost. Lucario gets weaker if he has more stocks than us, and he'll get stronger when we have more stocks than him. Nothing more, nothing less. Oh, and suck the Aura Spheres up with bike! He shouldn't kill with it if he doesn't have serious mindgames or punishes.


DrSoussou: +1
Croi: +1
hichez50: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1
LOE1: +1
xzx: 0


@ViperGold42: Super k.

 

[hichez50]

I wouldn't say this MU is +1 in Wario's favour. I think it's actually even. Lucario has disjointed range and a great aerial game, which is a pain for Wario. The aura boost is scary - once it reaches 170% or more, his (aura) power increases, which means we have to kill him before that happens. Staling our killing moves against him is really dangerous, because if we can't kill him when he reaches his power increasal level called the Aura Boost,..

Why wouldn't you be able to kill us? If you haven't killed us by then you are doing something wrong. You have Dacus, fsmash(super good if you can space and time it right against our fsmash), dsmash, waft, and ftilt. All of those moves are perfectly capable of killing lucario without any crazy mindgames. You just need a solid well refined wario play style. There is no reason to stall your kill moves. Then even if we do get our maximum aura boost more lucario's aren't going to go super aggressive, and wario will probably still have lower percents than us meaning he can just camp us with his great mobility.

 

[Lord Chair]

I'd say you do need the craziest mindgames if you want to kill any character with dsmash.

 

[LOE1]

dsmash dabest

1 question tho. if you happen to get a fully charged waft, im unsure what to do with it. it prob wont kill until like 100%, which he might even live that, plus it adds like 45%, making lucario stronger. what to do with that waft....

 

[Croi]

Full waft has a surprising amount of vertical kill power. Try killing over the top instead.

 

[DMG]

Just use waft to kill. I never use that to rack up damage in that MU, strictly kill. I mean you can sometimes on the same stock when they are low if it gets them in a reasonable kill % or if it's to establish a small lead early on, but yeah not killing with waft in this MU suckssssss

 

[xzx]

Why wouldn't you be able to kill us? If you haven't killed us by then you are doing something wrong. You have Dacus, fsmash(super good if you can space and time it right against our fsmash), dsmash, waft, and ftilt. All of those moves are perfectly capable of killing lucario without any crazy mindgames. You just need a solid well refined wario play style. There is no reason to stall your kill moves. Then even if we do get our maximum aura boost more lucario's aren't going to go super aggressive, and wario will probably still have lower percents than us meaning he can just camp us with his great mobility.

I haven't said Wario cannot kill Lucario. But if Wario always try to land the waft for killing him it will become rather predictable, and it seems that the waft is a must for killing Lucario... I know Wario's f-smash is great but it's not so smart to just throw it out randomly. It should be a punish move or w/e. But what I said was that if Wario has his killing moves staled then it will mean trouble for Wario. F-tilt is a great surprise attack so maybe Wario should use that instead... You also wrote "stall your kill moves", but I assume you mean "stale".

 

[DMG]

It's not TOO bad if your moves won't kill him, but it does mean you gotta trap him when he's forced to recover. I don't mind if Waft or something doesn't kill, but I also don't want that *** comin back onstage

 

[Labernash]

Never played a really good Lucario. But, far as I can tell, it's +1 Wario's favor. Everythings pretty much be covered so far.

Use N-air.

 

[xzx]

DrSoussou: +1
Croi: +1
hichez50: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1
LOE1: +1
xzx: 0
Labernash: +1

 

[Waymas]

Ill say is even or maybe im just bad on this MU i have problems when it comes on killing him , but croi's idea is really good waft camp , cause the more damage lucario has the more powerful he is. Ill do that next time . I also suggest the use of tires really useful and safe damage.

 

[Iota]

It's very difficult to kill Lucario before he kills you if you can't land waft. Usually once he's around 90% you should just be looking for waft openings and trying to put him in a position to gimp him.

If you miss with Waft it's best to play very safe and do poke damage till he's in f-smash/clap kill percent or until your waft is back.

Not sure if it's just the Lucarios I play messing up the follow-up but when they try to uair you I think there's a certain timing for air dodge where you'll be able to hit them with waft after the air dodge.

 

[DMG]

That doesn't sound right unless you are airdodging early and they react to it late with Uair. Frame wise if you two start off at roughly the same time maybe a few frames faster on your end, Im nearly positive he recovers at the very least at the same time you do if not a bit sooner.

 

[xzx]

DrSoussou: +1
Croi: +1
hichez50: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1
LOE1: +1
xzx: 0
Labernash: +1
Buff: 0

Btw, Wario can nair Lucario's up-tilt juggle.

 

[Pwneroni]

Wario's edgeguarding can absolutely destroy Lucario if you do it right. Edge crashing your bike, Uthrowing it then grabbing the ledge really puts Lucario in a tight spot! Tires can be really good for covering rolls, but be careful because Lucario can use them quite well in tandem with Dair and Aura Sphere.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Random question!
Is Bite a viable edguard against Lucario?

 

[Croi]

Frankly, bite is never a viable edgeguard against anybody.

 

[Tesh]

It can be DIed up pretty nicely so I don't see what the point would be. Lucario's aerials definitely don't lose to it so he would have to airdodge into you, which means you could have used something better.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Frankly, bite is never a viable edgeguard against anybody.

I've seen it quite often against Snake

It can be DIed up pretty nicely so I don't see what the point would be. Lucario's aerials definitely don't lose to it so he would have to airdodge into you, which means you could have used something better.

I thought a reversal Bite (facing the stage, looking for a possible Stagespike or bad positioning) could be useful, specially against him because there are no hitbox in Extreme Speed.
For avoid he grab Lucario would have to take an unconfortable route, and he may could be punished for that.

But that's just a brainstorming, if that does not work, just ignore that.

 

[Croi]

I've seen it quite often against Snake

Hah, okay, fair enough.

 

[Pwneroni]

Yup, definitely good against Snakes that recover at a medium height. Against Lucario, I think the best application of bite would be mixing it in with your aerials to punish shield. Lucario's roll is really quite fast and he can escape the bite on reaction if you do it too high, so bite right before you land. You could even mix it up further by doing Nairs right before you land, so if he tries to roll or shield drop he will get hit. Beware of shield grab.

If you have a tire in your hand, do not throw it directly at Lucario. His aura easily destroys the wheels of rubber, and if he decides to catch them for himself then it can be potentially be very difficult to regain the advantage. If you can drop a tire on Lucario's shield from above, a bite can be inescapable if you fall and bite at the right speed. Even if Lucario perfect shields you can still land a guaranteed bite.

 

[xzx]

Okay let's move on to King Dedede (or King CgCgCg). Like, his bair and fair destroys Wario, his grab range can grab Wario's bite, he has a giant mallet which has disjointed range and many many more pesky stuff. On the ground DDD wins - it's no idea to even bother challenging him on the ground. Having stage controll is really important in this MU since the tires and the bike can interrupt many things DDD has up his sleeves, like the CG, Waddle Dee Toss and his recovery. Keeping pressuring DDD to the edge is nice and getting him offstage is where we can snap his stock the best. If DDD attempts to use his up-b and land on the ground, we can punish him really hard! We can also up-air his recovery in the midst of it and trade a full waft with it. The fun thing is that DDD always want to grab the edge due to not having to use his Up-B and getting punished for it. The bike and tires are really good against DDD offstage and for edge guarding him, as well as on the ground. Especially the tires are life savers. Look out for his aerials when he is trying to jump back to the stage and also look out for his inhale which can lead to a sacrificial KO. DDD's uptilt is ridiculously strong in terms of knockback, start up and lastingness. It can even block Wario's vertical approach. And finally, his all-famous silly chain grab + grab-release combo on Wario that does massive damage and will KO Wario at around 120% fresh (I think). Avoid it at all costs. DDD can even grab-release Wario to up-tilt (correct me if I'm wrong) which is rude. Wow. DDD - what a character!

The only one true great advantage Wario has against DDD is the camping game. Wario can outcamp DDD really well and going for the time-out is a good shot for winning. DDD is so sloooow in the air, that's why. Wario has other great tools such as his bite, bike, tires and waft. Wario's bite beats DDD's inhale so use it. There are many things to write about in this MU but I'm too lazy to do it. What more to say... oh. This MU is silly. -2 for Wario.


xzx: -2

 

[Croi]

The MU depends too much on the stage to be accurate. Zero.

Not even - just zero.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The shorter the stagelist, the worse the matchup is for Wario. Will elaborate later.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Way in his favor in neutral position, but not impossible. He does way more damage per move than we do, and he has a fair amount of tools to reset the situation as long as he's not offstage. I'll say -2.

 

[LOE1]

oh ...ive never liked going wario against him, i like going secondaries. i donnt like to stay on the ground vs him, but when im in the air, his bair can punish all my approaches. not to mention a waft wont kill him until like 100%, he is ridiculously hard to kill. falling bite can be a good tool, but try not to miss it, or else ur etting cg'd. i'd say this mu is a -2 for sure. i think this is wario's worst mu. also, if you get caught in dedede's swallocide, its not too hard to mash out and survive it because of wario''s insane recovery. just a thought

 

[xzx]

xzx: -2
Croi: Not even, just zero
TheReflexWonder: -2
LOE1: -2

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

-1

 

[CRODD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJOQeVniXPQ Another way to win against d3 other than being campy as hell. Also playing against kyon's d3 said that falling bite really helps in this mu since d3 will try to grabbing and shielding all the time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also playing against kyon's d3 said that falling bite really helps in this mu since d3 will try to grabbing and shielding all the time.

Falling Bite is not particularly useful in this matchup. Rising Bite can be good to catch shorthop B-Air, but, Dedede has no reason to just shield underneath you, and Bite is just asking to get pivot grabbed when you're near the ground.

 

[One-Up]

King DDD is a pain in the ***. He is hard to kill and his CG too good. I usually just camp on the Smashville platform, go in for a couple of dair's and retreat and repeat. Going for the timeout might be a good idea! Tires **** in this MU(Glutonny showed that at SKTAR) I'd say this is a -2

 

[waldorf2007]

I pretty much just watch the gluttony v Seibrik match that happened recently. watch it over and over.
I'm never gonna be able to play it like that though. camping is king.
the biggest problem I have is when DDD is below me, and I'm on a platform. it's that situation where you have to choose whether you're going to hold shield and DDD sits double jumping for a while, or you're going to get the **** out of there. if you don't make the situation quickly enough, then you're screwed. It's probably a bigger problem for me than for others, but if I land on a platform (especially with RC frames) and DDD is almost over there, I'm like a deer in headlights.

 

[Waymas]

imo i think this matchup is stage dependant ,remember D3 is big and fat you can easily land a hit on him , also dthrow to buffered dtilt works till 50% if im not mistaken. Yea you have to play really campy on this MU and get tires everytime you can so u can make some walls in case he cg you. Bite is really good on this MU at early % you can do 2 bites to a grab. Fair and bair will help you a ton with your spacing. Save your smashes when he is at 120%+

Again i say its stage dependant. So i guess thats a 0?

 

[xzx]

xzx: -2
Croi: Not even, just zero
TheReflexWonder: -2
LOE1: -2
One-Up: -2
Buff: 0

But Buff, King Dedede's big size comes up with his incredible range. D= Some of his moves (if not all) are bigger than Wario himself which helps the fatty... Also, his pivot grab litteraly screws Wario haaard. It's definetily not even. King Dedede has more and better stages against Wario than vice versa (i.e. the starter stages).

 

[ぱみゅ]

The main problem with the matchup for Wario is the starter stage set.
As most people will all always begin with a flat stage, DDD will OBVIOUSLY have the advantage.
The more we expand that probability, the better are the odds for Wario.


From DDD's perspective, Wario is annoying if he just camps and keeps doing anything but attack. Also, anytime DDD whiffs an attack, he gets damaged, and that's when Wario must try to get the advantage, by punishing every mistake. Wario is just very good at that.
DDD outranges Wario, particulary his Bair is a big deal, but in the end, as long as Wario has room for scape, he can land a couple attacks that deals little damage each, and cover up for it.
Tires are relly helpful, DDD has trouble overall against pressure (pretty much why Olimar ***** him), plus his item throw is really slow and annoying. Ise them to set frame traps/combos, add pressure, or just forcing a mistake.
Waft will kill DDD at 100% or something like that, less if close a corner or offstage. It may be too much for Wario vs a difficult matchup, but for DDD, anything that kills him below 120% is just too powerful.
Also, juggling DDD is a bliss. He has a terrible landing animation, so you can hit him even if he airdodges to the ground.

So, by definition, DDD having tools and Wario having to punish mistakes, DDD has a solid advantage.
However, as I said before, depending on the stagelist could Wario have better chances and more room to do his stuff.

As for a ratio, on a 3-stage ruleset, it could even be -3.
With 5-7 Starters, -2 (assuming both players know how to strike).
With 11 Starters, -1 or even 0.
More, and it's definetly 0.
Wario counterpicking is advantage for Wario.

So... I'll go with Croi and call it "not even, just Zero"

 

[Lord Chair]

wtf? wario being able to win his counterpick means the matchup is 0?

also, ddd can whiff moves just fine if he knows how to whiff them

-2, i dont see the point of giving overviews of the MU, atomsk vs glutonny really shows all there is to it (except for blatantly being dumb on atomsks part)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You all massively overrate the extent by which counterpick stages help Wario's performance in this match-up - only Brinstar and RC actually do. Bite is only effective if DDD uses his sidestep or shield a lot but neither is a good, let alone necessary option in this match-up. DDD's bair is enough to beat Wario's bite and alongside utilt it covers virtually all of Wario's approach options from the air. [Pivot] grab is merely a mix-up to remind you what DDD can do to you if you try increase the pressure - do it and you'll eat a CG to GR usmash, don't do it and you're not getting past bair and utilt / djump dair mix-ups. So you basically have the choice of not getting past DDD's wall and trying to get through it and run into a like 60-40 chance [DDD's favor] to get grabbed. This match-up is bad, no matter what stages you allow, +2 for DDD easily.

Edit: And before Olaf calls me out on it - I have actually played this match-up in tourney and beat Bilo with it [I also win this MU like 75% of my games vs Lp's Wario].

 

[Lord Chair]

gheb you just made a post with which i completely agree

im stunned

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I make a lot of posts like that. You just always pick out the ones you don't agree with!