Wario Matchup Discussion

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

My record with Kryz is 0-3 every set being 2-1. I generally win game 1.
I have however played a few other warios tho none of them very reputable.

Now i ask how many good sheiks have you played?

Also i quoted you simply so you knew who i was addressing.

With Wario I don't think I've come across a good sheik. I don't even think there's a sheik in my region. I know neo played/plays sheik. But other than him I can't think of anyone but he's MD/Va. So na man I haven't come across one.

@ mars IDK man a lot of times Wario's will be less inclined to use bite if they know a character has few options to deal with it like let's say a Falcon. If I know my bite will beat out the majority of you moves then I have no problem attempting bite or just site there will bite up. Especially when you approach or when you've thrown out a move. If you look at how Ominswell used bite against Ankoku I think you should rethink your opinion. That was round 2.

 

[Judo777]

With Wario I don't think I've come across a good sheik. I don't even think there's a sheik in my region. I know neo played/plays sheik. But other than him I can't think of anyone but he's MD/Va. So na man I haven't come across one.

@ mars IDK man a lot of times Wario's will be less inclined to use bite if they know a character has few options to deal with it like let's say a Falcon. If I know my bite will beat out the majority of you moves then I have no problem attempting bite or just site there will bite up. Especially when you approach or when you've thrown out a move. If you look at how Ominswell used bite against Ankoku I think you should rethink your opinion. That was round 2.

Ok to be fair. I don't mind you coming in here and talking about the matchup simply from a theorized perspective. However if you are going to discuss matchup's please do it with an attitude that are simply speculating. Because to be honest you really can't hold much weight at all if you have never played the MU. If you disagree with something thats fine and you can address it but saying that us sheik mains who have actually played the MU and know how well certain moves work in certain situations are just straight up wrong is pretty absurd tbh.

To say that needles for instance can't force warios to approach when we sheiks have thrown needles and then gotten wario to approach is....... well i just don't see how you have a leg to stand on.

And again i'm not like trying to get on you just please have a little humility when discussing with people who actually have some experience with the topic at hand.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok to be fair. I don't mind you coming in here and talking about the matchup simply from a theorized perspective. However if you are going to discuss matchup's please do it with an attitude that are simply speculating. Because to be honest you really can't hold much weight at all if you have never played the MU. If you disagree with something thats fine and you can address it but saying that us sheik mains who have actually played the MU and know how well certain moves work in certain situations are just straight up wrong is pretty absurd tbh.

To say that needles for instance can't force warios to approach when we sheiks have thrown needles and then gotten wario to approach is....... well i just don't see how you have a leg to stand on.

And again i'm not like trying to get on you just please have a little humility when discussing with people who actually have some experience with the topic at hand.

The Wario decided to approach after you threw the needles he could of returned to the previous position in was in afterwards and continued to camp. I think you need to realize the difference. Also you asked how many good sheiks have I played, I've played the MU before but not against sheik's that are considered good. Have you played a Wario who tried to time you out ?

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm sure any FL Sheik who's played Masky has had plenty of experience with air camping LOL

 

[-Mars-]

The Wario decided to approach after you threw the needles he could of returned to the previous position in was in afterwards and continued to camp. I think you need to realize the difference. Also you asked how many good sheiks have I played, I've played the MU before but not against sheik's that are considered good. Have you played a Wario who tried to time you out ?

Sheik is extremely mobile and has a super fast double jump, we've already went over this in the thread. Timing out Sheik as Wario probably wont be happening unless we had been wasting time in the match as well.

 

[Judo777]

The Wario decided to approach after you threw the needles he could of returned to the previous position in was in afterwards and continued to camp. I think you need to realize the difference. Also you asked how many good sheiks have I played, I've played the MU before but not against sheik's that are considered good. Have you played a Wario who tried to time you out ?

If u havent played a good sheik........ then you havent played the MU. Cause the MU is supposed to be between 2 equal or close skilled players that know how to fight the other character. You have not done this. And yes i have played a wario who has tried to time me out. But if he ever has to land on the same level as me i get 18%. That really limits his camping options.

Dude i make people approach all the time with needles. I make MK's, Marths, and every character that isn't falco, pit, samus, and olimar approach me. Needles are fast and go through everything, they force alot of people to approach. Snakes even have to approach me.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If u havent played a good sheik........ then you havent played the MU. Cause the MU is supposed to be between 2 equal or close skilled players that know how to fight the other character. You have not done this. And yes i have played a wario who has tried to time me out. But if he ever has to land on the same level as me i get 18%. That really limits his camping options.

Dude i make people approach all the time with needles. I make MK's, Marths, and every character that isn't falco, pit, samus, and olimar approach me. Needles are fast and go through everything, they force alot of people to approach. Snakes even have to approach me.

Alright, I'll just take your word for it and if I come around a sheik I'll keep the things you've said in mind. The back and forth I grow tired of. Thanks for the info you provided.

 

[-Cross-]

I'm not really sure if sheik has better range. But if you guys want to win the range battle thats fine. Also you're pretty much describing how Wario is played. Baiting/get a read/punishing. However, I wouldn't be willing to say the MU is in shiek's favor because of her range

Dude seriously? I have said in every post that I think this MU is even, so have most people. I'm sorry, but I did mention the fact that Wario takes a long time to die, that he ***** Sheik with juggling, and that he will generally kill Sheik earlier. However, he will have a much harder time getting in against Sheik, if he didn't then lol Wario is definitely a Sheik counter.

If you have to bait/get a read in order to do damage, then you should realize that your character can not actually compete in straight up offense. That immediately puts you at a disadvantage, but the fact that you are rewarded very nicely for getting the approriate punish in is what makes this MU even. And I believe Wario can not compete in straight up offense with Sheik because she not only has better range but generally faster options. And most of her aerials have sex kick properties so unless you reset your position she can still hit you out of an air dodge. Now please tell me the reason you believe that Wario is not bothered at all by the fact that Sheik can cover Wario's offensive and defensive options at the same time most of the time.

 

[Renki]

I believe I did mention Wario's Bite in my initial post too. Annoying move, but not one that really changes the matchup. I'd say it's just a reward for the Sheik doing something dumb or making a common mistake.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful AL, but it just seemed like we were falling on deaf ears trying to explain the benefits of Sheik's tools against a character like Wario. However, in retrospect, you are right in the fact that Wario can change his position drastically just by his double jump. We can as well while you're doing it, but I digress. Also, Bike is definitely something to take into consideration. It's ability to refresh your kill moves, give you tires, etc is definitely not something to ignore. If you want to educate us more on Bike uses and tire properties, please do so. I've had my fair share of bad run-ins with the Bike, haha.

Just as a reminder, I initially said my ratio for this matchup is 45-55 Wario's slight adv, and I don't really intend on changing it to say it's even. As it's been stated, Wario lives a good long time if he isn't grabbed, and if there isn't a platform in the way.

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, if shiek manages to shield wario on his bike, she can SH fair, nair or bair punish it everytime based on positioning, the fair has a chance to put him into that weird animation where he doesnt go anywhere and just falls off the bike, which is disorienting and possibly laggy enough that its usually a good idea to fast fall and go for a grab afterwards.

shiek can also air needle him off the bike into basically the same situation.

and yes, Ive played this matchup against a wario that has tried everything to beat me, from being super agressive to fart camping to time outs. and I dont think hes ever beaten me. I am however better at the game, so I dont go overboard with my assumptions of the matchup based on that.

you can also SDI up out of his dacus and bair him for it, should he ever try it.

is there anything else that wario can do that we havent gone over already?

 

[<π]

I haven't had many issues with wario's but I don't play many wario mains.

needles **** because if you are using them right they are a zero risk punisher. Even if they aren't forcing an approch persay they are forcing a reaction and that can often be exploited.

bair and uair beat pretty much every aerial option wario has.

sheik DOES NOT have bad range. she has really good range expeaiclaly when compared to the whole of the cast. what she is lacking is disjointed attacks thet let her arms and legs get beat out by characters like marth mk olimar peach luigi, etc.

Her tilts out range D3's grab range most characters don't have poking tools that can do that. wario definitely doesn't.

sheiks horizontal ground speed and vertical air speed are nothing to ignore. wario can jump circles around MK because of Mk's certical speed sucks. sheik is always under you and even if you use that second jump in responce to both of hers she'll be back on the ground and under you again. in situations where MK would be trying to catch up with a tornado or something.

 

[-Cross-]

<3 what's your ratio?

I think it's even as of now, but the MU is dependent on the Sheik player's ability. A MU where your character's mistakes is the opponent's main source of damage is always nice, because with good decision making and gameplay, you can effectively take control of the match.


Btw I believe we can still u-smash out of GR even if Wario tries to land on the moving platform of SV.... anybody know for sure? I also know for sure that you can still uair Wario on SV regardless of platform, and on BF u-smash is guaranteed out of GR no matter what.

 

[-Mars-]

Are you sure? Shield comes out on frame 1, I would think that he would have landed by the time we can react out of GR and started our relatively slow usmash.

 

[-Cross-]

That's why I'm asking, at least for the GR u-smash on SV. But I was just playing earlier today just a couple matches and I was able to land a uair through the SV platform, and Wario was still in the air. Same with u-smash at BF, which is why I wonder if u-smash on SV would work. But my memory can also suck at times, and I really can't be bothered to check for myself right now. So somebody else confirm this for me?

 

[Judo777]

Haha not to doubt u again lol but like mars said shield comes out frame 1and i have treid many times and if he lands on the ground i believe he is safe. I dont think our uair hits any higher than the plat so idt we can hit him even on BF.

 

[-Cross-]

ok... I actually wouldn't count out the possibility that my friend just didn't shield, and my memory is wrong. If I have time, I'll test it, and hopefully prove you wrong again XD. I don't think it will change the overall MU, but it will just make it so that Wario can never escape GR without taking damage, which might open up stage selection a bit, depending on your priorities. No more avoiding damage on SV.

 

[Judo777]

ok... I actually wouldn't count out the possibility that my friend just didn't shield, and my memory is wrong. If I have time, I'll test it, and hopefully prove you wrong again XD. I don't think it will change the overall MU, but it will just make it so that Wario can never escape GR without taking damage, which might open up stage selection a bit, depending on your priorities. No more avoiding damage on SV.

I hope you do too. Like seriously if we could still hit ppl landing on plats with GR options that would be awesome.

 

[-Cross-]

Just a question about the MU, when you are going to edgeguard Wario, what point of his recovery do you aim for/punish? I aim for when he gets on his bike, because unless he does it from very high up or far away from the stage, Bike can be punished by Sheik on it or during his bike jump. Is there a better strategy?

@Judo, hopefully I can do something tomorrow, but the wii is not mine so it may take a while before I can test. You should also test it out in the mean time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I usually go to fair/bair him, or needle him either at the point where he pulls out the bike, or at the point where hes jumping off, because if you can hit him at one of those 2 points, hes pretty much dead.

 

[riocosta123]

To be honest, I don't think you're going to be getting many chances to edgeguard any Wario with decent di.

If he's coming from above I try to get a frame trap/clash with upair, but his air maneuverability is really good. You're probably better off charging needles.

 

[Fuujin]

He gets a guaranteed fart if he knocks you far enough offstage and Sheik is forced to recover.
If the Wario has any knowledge as to how Sheik recovers you can consider yourself dead once youre at like 50.
Unless you grab release you wont be killing him until like 160 :/
You also can't really force him to approach unless you're at FD.
Yeah he jumps a lot but you wont be able to punish his landings at a stage with platforms.
Maybe 45-55 at FD other than that it's like 40-60.

 

[Orion*]

neo ***** slik in this mu really hard

shiek can literally just super camp wario

 

[<π]

you can't usmash him out of GR on the SV plat (or any plat I'm pretty sure) uair will always work though.

I don't really like ratios much but I'd say 50-50

At sheik's recovery if Sheik is DIing correctly getting to an edge should be an issue. all of warrios attacks have really high knock back angles so forcing him off the ledge or keeping him off with needles or what ever is rarely a large issue I can't remember the last time my sheik got pooped on while recovering.

 

[-Cross-]

Alright so I got some unexpected free time, and I just did a quick test. Some GR info: Wario can be GR>uair guaranteed regardless of platform on all the neutrals in the EC rule set. So YI (depending on platform tilt), SV, BF, and Lylat. Wario can be GR>u-smash on BF regardless of platform. He can also be GR>u-smash under the side platforms on Lylat, but you actually need to time the u-smash or you'll either miss because you did it too quickly or get shielded because you did it too late. On YI, GR>usmash just depends on how tilted the center platform is. Also on SV, I lol'd because u-smash can't even reach the person on the moving platform.

On some CP's... GR>u-smash is guaranteed on the second transformation of Castle Siege, the second transformation of Halberd and I believe the standard transformation of PS1. Those were the only stages I tested in the short time I had. GR>uair is guaranteed on all these stages regardless of platform.

Some key notes:
When you GR>uair on some of these stages, do not dash, just jump straight away and uair, you will still get the strong hitbox if you do it properly. You may want to use the buffering uair described in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11423761#post11423761
or you can learn how to claw like I did and just time uair right after jump.

Also the side platforms on Lylat, the 2nd transformation on CS and the 1st transformation on PS1 are the stages where you need to "time" your u-smash. You'll see what I mean when you try, but you can't buffer run>u-smash asap or you will completely whiff. Also, Lylat is still kind of annoying, because depending on where you grab him you may or may not air release him, because of the incline located on the sides of the stage.

Hope this helps, btw on a slightly off topic note, Sheik may be able to DACUS MK out of GR on the2nd transformation of Halberd and maybe, maybe even BF. I know shield is frame 1, but when I perfectly buffered DACUS, it was very close and I could not tell whether he landed or not. The 2nd transformation of Halberd looks more hopeful than BF but I'll get somebody to hold the shield button next time I test, and check it out.

Edit: IF you are wondering how I tested this by myself, all I did was take two controllers hold the shield button for Wario with my pinky on my left hand then I held the other controller right above it. After a couple minutes, I got used to the awkward positioning so the results are reliable. The only reason I can't confirm GF>DACUS on MK, is because I can't properly perform the DACUS with my left hand in such an awkward position

 

[-Mars-]

Wow great work Cross. If we are able to GR DACUS MK on Halberd with that low ceiling that is huge.

Also Sheik completely ***** Wario out of a grab lol....nice work.

 

[-Mars-]

Kaylo confirmed that GR infinite does NOT work on Wario:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...1#post11436841

He can jump out. However, if you grab him out of his DJ he's pretty much helpless I would think.

*Edit for Cross*: http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...1#post11436841


If that doesnt work just go to the Fairy Fountain Research thread on the Zelda boards and go back about 1 page and it's on there. Tested with the Frame machine thingy.

 

[-Cross-]

Can you repost the link? It's not working for me for some reason.
Would it be worth the risk to ftilt late and try to catch Wario out of a DJ for the chance of getting him into the infinte at lowish %'s?

 

[da K.I.D.]

if it doesnt work when he can jump, he can probably fart (and maybe up b) out of it too.

 

[Judo777]

Kaylo confirmed that GR infinite does NOT work on Wario:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...1#post11436841

He can jump out. However, if you grab him out of his DJ he's pretty much helpless I would think.

*Edit for Cross*: http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...1#post11436841


If that doesnt work just go to the Fairy Fountain Research thread on the Zelda boards and go back about 1 page and it's on there. Tested with the Frame machine thingy.

Why is it on the zelda boards? also are u saying sheiks pivot grab infinite was tested using frame data cause if not i wont buy it yet.

 

[-Cross-]

Yeah it was, I would believe their results and it does make sense, sucks that Sheik loses vertical range on her grab.

Btw Mars, I realized why I kept getting an error message when I clicked your link. My post count per page is set at 40, so post #11436841 doesn't exist for me lolol, everybody should just use 40 posts per page, less pages are loaded

 

[<π]

if it doesnt work when he can jump, he can probably fart (and maybe up b) out of it too.

fart isn't fast enough. and it doesn't have invulnerability.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what frame does fart hit on anyway?

 

[<π]

Down-B:
First Attack Frame:
Charge Level Zero (about 0:00 – 0:17): Trips on Frame 16 (no damage)
Charge Level One (about 0:17 – 0:57): Frame 10
Charge Level Two (about 0:57 – 1:50): Frame 5
Charge Level Three (Full Charge): Frame 9 (Super Armor Frames 5-10)

 

[-Mars-]

Why is it on the zelda boards? also are u saying sheiks pivot grab infinite was tested using frame data cause if not i wont buy it yet.

We were testing whether or not Zelda could infinite Wario since she's the same height as Sheik.
I asked her to test Sheiks version as well since she had the equipment.

I'm with you though....i'm almost certain it works. Sheiks has an invisible grab box/zone when you pivot grab so im not so certain that you lose all that vertical range. Frame data doesn't lie.....maybe she wasn't doing it fast enough though because from my experiences it seems you have a 1-3 frame window.

 

[-Cross-]

Who knows, it may just be an issue of timing. Regardless, we still have plenty of options against Wario out of GR. And nobody has answered this question which i've posted for the third time, can we ftilt>regrab at reasonable %'s on Wario out of GR?

 

[KayLo!]

I'm with you though....i'm almost certain it works. Sheiks has an invisible grab box/zone when you pivot grab so im not so certain that you lose all that vertical range. Frame data doesn't lie.....maybe she wasn't doing it fast enough though because from my experiences it seems you have a 1-3 frame window.

I'll record it frame-by-frame if you want, lol. And like I said, K Prime tested it as well just to double check.

It doesn't work.

EDIT: Because I wanted to be 120% positive, I went back and re-tested it just now from every single frame leading up to and past Wario's first actionable frame. I tried grabbing with each of Sheik's pivot grab and standing grab hitbubbles..... from every conceivable range. Sorry guys, it definitely, certainly, absolutely doesn't work if Wario jumps on his FAF.

 

[-Mars-]

I'll record it frame-by-frame if you want, lol. And like I said, K Prime tested it as well just to double check.

It doesn't work.

EDIT: Because I wanted to be 120% positive, I went back and re-tested it just now from every single frame leading up to and past Wario's first actionable frame. I tried grabbing with each of Sheik's pivot grab and standing grab hitbubbles..... from every conceivable range. Sorry guys, it definitely, certainly, absolutely doesn't work if Wario jumps on his FAF.

Lol. I guess i'll just resign myself to the fact that it doesn't work. I appreciate you checking it out for us though thanks.

Oh and guys the Wario boards have the MU as Wario advantage 6-4. There MU thread is complete garbage with almost no actual knowledge of Sheik.....but they somehow seem that the MU is easy. Character bias on our part? I really wish some Wario's would come over here.

Edit: I really want to get the Matchups down pretty accurate this time around since in the past I felt we had been too generous with the ratios.

 

[-Cross-]

You know, I'm starting to agree with <3 about not liking ratios. It may be easier just labeling MU's as disadvantage or even and such, the exact number imo shouldn't matter so much as the content. Although before we can put a close on this discussion we need somebody besides AL posting >_>

 

[Renki]

I agree that certain matchups were a bit too generous on our part. The thing is, if certain character boards are set in their ways, there's not much we can do to convince them since we play a character majority of them have probably never even played in a tournament setting.

I'd personally trust our input on the ratios(since it seems like majority of us are realistic, level-headed players anyways.) It doesn't hurt to ask particular players on certain character boards though for their input.


Edit: And Cross said my point about certain players before I even posted it. Good stuff. xD

 

[Judo777]

I'll record it frame-by-frame if you want, lol. And like I said, K Prime tested it as well just to double check.

It doesn't work.

EDIT: Because I wanted to be 120% positive, I went back and re-tested it just now from every single frame leading up to and past Wario's first actionable frame. I tried grabbing with each of Sheik's pivot grab and standing grab hitbubbles..... from every conceivable range. Sorry guys, it definitely, certainly, absolutely doesn't work if Wario jumps on his FAF.

hahaha alright man thnx for being so thorough. I guess it doesn't work guys.

Also yea i think the first time around we were waaaaaayyyyyyy too generous with the ratios.