Wario Matchup Discussion

[-Mars-]

Wario Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210128

Sheik Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248288

 

[-Cross-]

Hmmm my most played MU, my thoughts will be general though, since I can not cover high levels of play. (Since both my friend and I are not high level players).

Due to Sheik's obvious range on her aerials and nice anti-air ftilt, Wario's will try and approach with either SH airdodge or from above. I find having needles charged or charging them whenever possible will result in a lot of damage. Every chance Wario trys to poke at you from the air or bait you with his air dodge represents a chance to hit him in his landing lag with needles.

The troubling thing about playing Wario is when you are above him. With below average horizontal aerial movement, Sheik is in a pretty bad position when above Wario. This is also due to the fact that Sheik does not have a fast and ranged dair. Mix it up with reverse needle charges and retreat to the edge or onto a platform. Just try and get away from Wario because his uair does ridiculous damage (17% fresh?) and will combo into itself at low %'s.

In terms of recovering Sheik has a lot of fun harassing Wario off stage. Most times Wario will recover high and above you, if he goes below you either get free % or a kill. When he is edgeguarding you, remember that you generally have better range on your aerials, mix in attacking him with needles or an aerial or air dodge. It's also nice if you reverse the direction your facing with a quick needle cancel to the other direction (careful not to change your momentum), then you can challenge Wario with bair which does not have as much lag as nair and just as good.

Don't exactly have a ratio, Sheik has some nice guaranteed damage and kill setup along with good edgeguarding, but Wario is heavy and can afford to take a lot of hits. Wario also has an early% kill move which can easily turn the tides on Sheik.

 

[Renki]

Hmm, I think I still have a bit of trouble in this matchup, even though I -know- Sheik handles Wario pretty well.

Well, Wario's an interesting character. We get our usual f-tilt shenanigans on him if it's stale enough, we get grab release u-smash on him for free(barring no platforms to mess you up.) Everytime I try to jab him more than once though, I eat a bite. I'm not sure if he can get through our f-tilt lock as well, but it's still rather annoying.

Approaching is...weird to say the least. I would say Wario's forced to approach, but needles don't seem all that useful in this matchup to me. Wario's aerial acceleration is just crazy. You really have to pay extreme close attention to where he's going to be and what he's doing for needles to do anything imo.
I would comment on his approaches, but I'm still learning the quirks of those. :\

Wario doesn't seem like he'd be all that fat, but Jesus, for such a small character, he lives FOREVER. Personally, unless the ceiling is really high, I'd just kill him off the top and be done with it. His recovery options are effective enough to come back more often than not from the sides.

I know Wario has lots of grab shenanigans on lots of grabs and guaranteed combos on people too. Not sure if he has some on Sheik, but I just wanted to address that.

Uhhh....I know I'm forgetting a lot of things, but I'm still kind of new to this matchup. :\

Uhh... 45-55 Wario's adv or 50-50 imo. Stay Sheik unless you're -really- confident in your Zelda, lol

 

[<π]

grab release!

He is nice and heavy so despite his low fall speed he will stay in locks a decent amount of time and that nets free damage. you can move on the ground while he is in the air to keep a nice zone up. utilt beat all of his attack options from above. and bair beats everything he can do period except fart.
um......... needles **** in the match up wait for the second jump and wait for him to commit to landing on the same level as you and throw them its free damage.

wario kills kinda low in the match up, always DI so you can recover with the most options because if you are force to land on stage you'll get farted on .

don't try and fight wario on the ground too too much? he has ftilt and fsmash which are just stupid good. stay out of his range and bait errors when he is on the ground.

 

[-Cross-]

Yeah, needles are definitely useful in this MU. Going off <3's logic, think of needles as a guaranteed punish on whenever a person lands, and since Wario jumps a lot, you will have a lot of opportunities to land needles. Dunno about the reliability of utilt, it will definitely beat Wario if he chooses the attacking option, but if he decides to FF air dodge, even the lingering hitbox of utilt will miss as Wario has more than enough speed to air dodge away. I like SH uair a lot because it has a bit farther range and you are more mobile while doing it, so it leaves less of an opportunity for Wario to punish.

I'm pretty sure that Wario doesn't have any grab combos on Sheik, although i think his d-throw may be a sort of a frame trap(?). Anybody know for sure?

 

[Judo777]

Yeah, needles are definitely useful in this MU. Going off <3's logic, think of needles as a guaranteed punish on whenever a person lands, and since Wario jumps a lot, you will have a lot of opportunities to land needles. Dunno about the reliability of utilt, it will definitely beat Wario if he chooses the attacking option, but if he decides to FF air dodge, even the lingering hitbox of utilt will miss as Wario has more than enough speed to air dodge away. I like SH uair a lot because it has a bit farther range and you are more mobile while doing it, so it leaves less of an opportunity for Wario to punish.

I'm pretty sure that Wario doesn't have any grab combos on Sheik, although i think his d-throw may be a sort of a frame trap(?). Anybody know for sure?

he can probably dthrow to buffered turnaround dtilt but he can do that to like everyone.

 

[choknater]

yea i find this match easy

cover urself with bair, utilt, sh uair
always charge needles while hes jumping around
grab release usmash

if hes avoiding getting grabbed, hes probably jumping a lot, so its easy to get needles charged

just stay away and stay grounded, cuz even though his aerial movement is better, he has to approach to hit us so just react and punish his poor range with ur excellent sheik's legs range. just watch out for his trixies, all warios have diff choices of how they can fake u out, just memorize what they do.

dont get farted on, never put urself in a situation where u can get hit by that. hes basically the melee jiggs of brawl which is why i find him easy lol (for those of u who play melee.....)

 

[Juno McGrath]

I hate this match up so much, as a wario player that is.

You guys got this.

When i get home from school ill write something up.

 

[Judo777]

When it comes kill time DONT FISH FOR GRABS i can't stress that enough. Its tempting but dont do it. The number one player in our region is a wario and hes is hella good (arguably best wario in the MW. Blue Rogue is the only one who might be better but its close.) . I have played him quite a bit but he is so unorthodox that i dont feel i can contribute that much. Krystedez just beats the hell out of you with the bike lol. Which isnt typical of warios.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Here's what I think when I come across a sheik.

He range isn't good. Her recover is balls. She's light. She's a FF and easy to juggle at low percentages. She also has a bad projectile. If I avoid her ftilt shenanigans she's screwed. She can't make force approaches. Her kill moves is balls. She'll be fishing for GR > usmash. When I knock her off stage I should throw my bike at her or use invincible nairs for gimps. As long as I play patiently and don't rush there really isn't anything she can do.

@Judo do you realize that Hunger is MW?

 

[Renki]

^ Obviously has no clue about Sheik, what her moveset entails, what she can do to Wario, let alone other characters, and...Sheik in general? Think I said that.

You sound almost as bad as DMG when it comes to Wario, lol(except he's realistic when it comes to Marth and MK against Wario.) Extreme character bias for sure on your part. Must be trolling, yep. That, or you're clueless. xD


I'll just believe you're trolling, mhm.

Anyways, Wario's no walk in the park for Sheik. But, it's no easy case for Wario at all...except killing her. But, he does that well enough to every character regardless.

 

[-Mars-]

I've played a couple Wario's from Norcal. Erow? Or something like that is power ranked over there and I lost to a Wario in brackets 2-1 last hit last stock. Shoulda won it too.

Biggest thing for me that I noticed was that spacing with aerials and running around is vital. Whenever I tried to shield an approach I would get grabbed through bite or regular grab. He has a lot of mixups in his approach game so you have to be on your toes and read his patterns and habits. Lots of Warios like to land immediately into spotdodges.....**** that. SH Aerials and lots of ftilt, utilt, pivot grabs. Don't FH or DJ in this matchup because Wario will punish you in the air or upon landing 90% of the time.

As for GR I would like someone to confirm something for me. The double usmash hitbox that sends Wario off to the sides is the one that lands 30%......in order for me to get that instead of the more potent single tipper hitbox I have to delay the usmash out of the GR. Can Wario escape before that version of the usmash? Reason I ask is because he can escape the pivot grab infinite it seems like so I was wondering.

Bair outranges everything he has in the air, uair ***** from underneath him, and fair/nair are quick enough to hit before the majority of his attacks come out. Jab also outspeeds him up close. Frame Data ftw.

Ftilt doesn't work here unless you have it decayed. Warios are going to ban FD inevitably so when they do laugh and pick Castle Seige. Not only does it have lots of open space for you to GR to your hearts content, it also allows you to decay your ftilt and lock Wario. Just DO NOT lose the lead on this stage or it will be very hard for you to catch him.

For those who don't know, Wario can drop his bike during an ftilt lock unless you have decayed it. Standard ftilt combos like ftilt>dsmash or ftilt>nair are still effective here.....or my personal favorite ftilt>grab.

I agree with Judo in that you shouldn't fish for grabs. Let them come naturally and just keep camping and spacing properly. This actually applies to all of Sheiks matchups, she isn't a character that can force kills like Snake.

Wario kills Sheik so early though. You can have a sizeable lead and be comfortable about the outcome of the match....and then Wario could run away for a minute and get right back in it. Even fsmash and uair kill Sheik really early. His grab range is also a pain and his fthrow does a ton of damage. Her air movement is also easy to read and punish. he also can have a field day on her recovery.

Pretty even imo.

 

[-Cross-]

Does GR>ftilt not continue the lock? Because if it does, then couldn't you pivot grab him away from the bike, GR and just keep ftilt locking?

I really do think Sheik is in a lot of trouble recovering though. Once she loses her second jump, it's pretty much a stock and if not guaranteed damage from vanish landing lag. I would be careful when you get hit by Bite near the edge. DI away from Wario as he can easily fair and take away your second jump if you DI toward the stage, because Bite post lag is ridiculously low. Now I'm talking about specific strategies which doesn't really help.... I think everybody pretty much understands the strengths and weaknesses of Sheik in this MU, so it may be helpful to compare general MU strategies vs Wario.

I'll go first. Personally, my general strategy in this MU is: I know he has good aerial approaches with his SH and quick DJ>FF, along with an air grab. Therefore I conclude that shielding is not my best option, and instead I should either choose my appropriate attacking option which covers most of his options at the needed time or run away and create more space. All the while, I charge my needles as much as possible. In any MU generally, I keep a charge of 4-5 needles and rarely will I get all 6 charges (this is a personal preference, I like needle cancel mindgames), but once I get multiple charges, I use run away>b-reverse needle to punish any "safe" approaches he may do.

Once I reach the end of the stage, I look for ways to get to the other side/just create more room. Dash below him when he DJ's, attack him, even roll etc. Then I rinse repeat. My goal is to get the Wario to realize that he needs to commit on some attack as I am always retreating, and then hopefully by annoying him with enough needles, get him to overcommit. Once he overcommits, I can potentially attack him earlier than he would expect me to or land a pivot grab. This is my game plan when I go against Wario, it's general, and specific strategies tend to change once I actually start playing. Is this a good strategy or do you see any obvious flaws? I would be speaking of flaws in the general sense but specific strategies that may counter my approach are also appreciated. Also would you guys care to post how you generally approach this MU?

 

[riocosta123]

The only wario I've lost to in tournament or in a MM was Fiction's so I really enjoy this MU.

Although you're right that Wario has a lot of kill moves if he misses/hits shield on ANY of them besides waft/uair he gets grabbed . Once Wario's realize this they start to play more conservatively and it becomes much easier to predict them. Sheik has so many quick, low-lag options to cover herself in air that even if he airdodges or weaves out/in you can recover in time without a problem. Nair is long and lasts through most AD.

 

[-Mars-]

Is the pivot grab infinite guaranteed on Wario? It seems to work on level 9 cpu's but nobody has confirmed for me whether or not it's guaranteed on humans attempting to escape.

 

[<π]

I can't do it...

set the computer to jump and see if you as still getting it.

 

[Judo777]

Is the pivot grab infinite guaranteed on Wario? It seems to work on level 9 cpu's but nobody has confirmed for me whether or not it's guaranteed on humans attempting to escape.

It's strict timing but i do believe it is legit. If it's any consolation i believe innocent roads came up with it and that guy hasn't been wrong so far on any of his discoveries (which btw he has made alot and props to him for developing sheiks metagame as well as he has)

At legendary no i wasn't aware the hunger was MW. Although i wouldn't necessarily count out Blue Rouge or Kryz from Hunger so fast. Kryz did upset DEHF at MLG columbus. Partly due to his very unorthodox style but still.

And like renki said you obviously have no idea about the sheik wario MU.

 

[da K.I.D.]

just keep moving around. dont let him hold you in the same place for too long.

the best offence is a good defence sheiks aerials usually beat warios.

up tilt beats them too.

what is the % that up smash will kill wario at?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=659v54XU0fk

 

[-Mars-]

Tested it. Sheik and Zelda can both pivot grab infinite Wario.

Fresh usmash would more than likely kill Wario at 95-98.

 

[da K.I.D.]

good to know, thanks.

 

[Judo777]

Tested it. Sheik and Zelda can both pivot grab infinite Wario.

Fresh usmash would more than likely kill Wario at 95-98.

Dont be so sure lol. In my experience the only warios i have ever played have insane DI cause they are used to that gay crap. Kryz lives up until about 105% with a fresh usmash.

 

[-Mars-]

Which is why i said more than likely, Gluttony survived an utilt from Ally at 145%. Vertical KO moves are hard to DI though and DI doesn't effect them as much.

It's safe to say if you grab Wario around 100 and pummel him he's probably going to die.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's strict timing but i do believe it is legit. If it's any consolation i believe innocent roads came up with it and that guy hasn't been wrong so far on any of his discoveries (which btw he has made alot and props to him for developing sheiks metagame as well as he has)

At legendary no i wasn't aware the hunger was MW. Although i wouldn't necessarily count out Blue Rouge or Kryz from Hunger so fast. Kryz did upset DEHF at MLG columbus. Partly due to his very unorthodox style but still.

And like renki said you obviously have no idea about the sheik wario MU.

What am I getting confused about sheik?

Her range isn't good. Her recover is balls. She's light. She's a FF and easy to juggle at low percentages. She also has a bad projectile. If I avoid her ftilt shenanigans she's screwed. She can't force approaches. Her kill moves is balls. She'll be fishing for GR > usmash. When I knock her off stage I should throw my bike at her or use invincible nairs for gimps. As long as I play patiently and don't rush there really isn't anything she can do.

Instead of just saying oh legend you're wrong. Can you point it out for me?

 

[Judo777]

What am I getting confused about sheik?



Instead of just saying oh legend you're wrong. Can you point it out for me?

Ok well firstly. Our range is not that bad and more importantly its better than warios. We can stuff most of wario's approaches. Saying Needles are a bad projectile actually made me laugh a little bit. Needles are easily the top 5 best non item projectile in the game. 18% fully charged plus tanscendant and the fastest moving projectile in the game with 2 directions to be thrown is amazing. Its very free damage if ur opponent jumps.

Our recovery isn't great but its not an auto gimp for wario. Our tether is waaaaaaayyyyy better than everyone elses (if you dont know we are 100% invincible on retraction). And we can cancel the lag on our vanish. Gimping sheik is not that easy if they know what they are doing (Judge even commented on my recovery during the match complimenting that he couldn't gimp me.)

Wario has no chance of avoiding us all game (unless the stage is huge and then its still tough) cause our ground speed and vertical airspeed is insane.

We can tilt lock wario a little which is free damage, and our fast moves give us a good chance at him on the ground.

Sheik is very good at getting grabs cause we are fast and we can technically infinite you out of a grab. Lastly GR Usmash kills at 100 about so killing wario isn't as tricky as other matchups.

Id say its even a little in his favor.

 

[choknater]

needles and jumping under him beat his camping

bair utilt uair outrange all his aerials

if wario has offense trixies, thats harder to deal with.

stay grounded, sheiks

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok well firstly. Our range is not that bad and more importantly its better than warios. We can stuff most of wario's approaches. Saying Needles are a bad projectile actually made me laugh a little bit. Needles are easily the top 5 best non item projectile in the game. 18% fully charged plus tanscendant and the fastest moving projectile in the game with 2 directions to be thrown is amazing. Its very free damage if ur opponent jumps.

Our recovery isn't great but its not an auto gimp for wario. Our tether is waaaaaaayyyyy better than everyone elses (if you dont know we are 100% invincible on retraction). And we can cancel the lag on our vanish. Gimping sheik is not that easy if they know what they are doing (Judge even commented on my recovery during the match complimenting that he couldn't gimp me.)

Wario has no chance of avoiding us all game (unless the stage is huge and then its still tough) cause our ground speed and vertical airspeed is insane.

We can tilt lock wario a little which is free damage, and our fast moves give us a good chance at him on the ground.

Sheik is very good at getting grabs cause we are fast and we can technically infinite you out of a grab. Lastly GR Usmash kills at 100 about so killing wario isn't as tricky as other matchups.

Id say its even a little in his favor.

Needles is a bad projectile. Damage doesn't = good projectile. How can it be applied ? Can it force Wario to approach ? Can you constantly throw them out with out much lag in between? No. Do they need to be charged? yes.

As for range sheiks range is bad. Her longest ranging ground move is fsmash ? Her longest ranging aerial is bair. Bair can be applied a lot more than her fsmash. If you're going to try and keep wario out you're going to use ftilt and utilt? The range on her fair and nair isn't far.

Fast run doesn't mean ==== you get grabs you need to time and grab us in our landing lag. However, depending on the stage like let's see BF or SV it can become an even harder task for you to land the grab. Then factor in the fact that I already know you'll going to be fishing for grabs.

Please tell me how reliable sheiks kills moves are? Strong nair? strong bair? tippered usmash from a gR? Just because you have GR > Usmash doesn't all of a sudden mean sheik is this over powered killing machine.

Yeah you can ftilt lock us I acknowledge this already. This is what I'm most worried about in this MU. Please don't bring up an infinite that no one is don't haven't done in a match and can't be applied. Random infinite on Wario doesn't = good MU for you.

I also never said she was auto gimp I just pointed out her recovery is bad and it's harassing her recovery is a lot easier than the other way around which you guys are stating. If anyone thinks this MU is even I'd disagree with this. I don't really see much sheik can do against wario and the small things she does have can be avoided. So don't overstate your advantages and make it seem like Wario is at a disadvantage because this is a bad mu for you.

 

[Judo777]

Needles is a bad projectile. Damage doesn't = good projectile. How can it be applied ? Can it force Wario to approach ? Can you constantly throw them out with out much lag in between? No. Do they need to be charged? yes.

As for range sheiks range is bad. Her longest ranging ground move is fsmash ? Her longest ranging aerial is bair. Bair can be applied a lot more than her fsmash. If you're going to try and keep wario out you're going to use ftilt and utilt? The range on her fair and nair isn't far.

Fast run doesn't mean ==== you get grabs you need to time and grab us in our landing lag. However, depending on the stage like let's see BF or SV it can become an even harder task for you to land the grab. Then factor in the fact that I already know you'll going to be fishing for grabs.

Please tell me how reliable sheiks kills moves are? Strong nair? strong bair? tippered usmash from a gR? Just because you have GR > Usmash doesn't all of a sudden mean sheik is this over powered killing machine.

Yeah you can ftilt lock us I acknowledge this already. This is what I'm most worried about in this MU. Please don't bring up an infinite that no one is don't haven't done in a match and can't be applied. Random infinite on Wario doesn't = good MU for you.

I also never said she was auto gimp I just pointed out her recovery is bad and it's harassing her recovery is a lot easier than the other way around which you guys are stating. If anyone thinks this MU is even I'd disagree with this. I don't really see much sheik can do against falco and the small things she does have can be avoided. So don't overstate your advantages and make it seem like Wario is at a disadvantage because this is a bad mu for you.

ftilt is a plenty long range move. Its longer than all of warios moves except maybe ftilt. And needles dont have to be charged to be used. 1 or 2 is sufficient and if your not approaching we can always charge em (which in turn can force u to approach) . And again ur crazy if you think needles are bad.

And if the sheik your playing isn't ******** they wont be fishing for grabs. you go for grabs when u see em. which btw we get grabs after jabs which is a frame 2 move. Also i have already done the infinite in tournament quite a few times. its good for forcing warios to not be able to use their farts under 2 minutes.

We outrange a good majority of warios moves with ftilt, bair and utilt. And our kill moves are as you said 3 frame strong nair, tippered bair, 4 frame dsmash, Gr usmash. I really dont see what wario can do to really cripple us in this MU.

I have played Kryz i think 4 times in tournament and its always really close. trust me its fairly close to even.

 

[Renki]

So don't overstate your advantages and make it seem like Wario is at a disadvantage because this is a bad mu for you.

You seem rather salty that Sheik doesn't lose badly to Wario. You also seem to think we're trying to say we're "whoamg amazing" against Wario. We haven't said such, and we're not going to say such either. Let it sink in, and move on.

You're not a top wario, you don't play Sheik, you say needles are a bad projectile(I chuckled as well), and I'm not sure if you meant to say Wario, but you said, "There's not a lot Sheik can do against Falco, and the small things she does have can be avoided." I really hope you were joking. I can say that about any and every character in the game...does it actually happen that way? No. Please don't say fruitless things such as that. (Just an fyi: Falco's think Sheik is even or slightly in her adv, I wonder why. )


Wario's no cake walk if he plays gay, but it's certainly not 60-40 or anything, lol.

 

[choknater]

yah thats why ur not legendary yet :D

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ftilt is a plenty long range move. Its longer than all of warios moves except maybe ftilt. And needles dont have to be charged to be used. 1 or 2 is sufficient and if your not approaching we can always charge em (which in turn can force u to approach) . And again ur crazy if you think needles are bad.

And if the sheik your playing isn't ******** they wont be fishing for grabs. you go for grabs when u see em. which btw we get grabs after jabs which is a frame 2 move. Also i have already done the infinite in tournament quite a few times. its good for forcing warios to not be able to use their farts under 2 minutes.

We outrange a good majority of warios moves with ftilt, bair and utilt. And our kill moves are as you said 3 frame strong nair, tippered bair, 4 frame dsmash, Gr usmash. I really dont see what wario can do to really cripple us in this MU.

I have played Kryz i think 4 times in tournament and its always really close. trust me its fairly close to even.

Sheik's needles forces approaches ? I don't know if sheik's bair out ranges Wario bair. I know our Ftilt out ranges yours but it's not a realistic spacing tool because of the start up. So who really has the range advantage? Not like have a range advantage matters to me as a Wario player. I'm willing to admit my character's range is balls are you?

I understand you've played Krystedez however, just understand that he's one Wario with a totally different style then most. The same way a hunger will play a blue rogue won't play. All of the top Wario's have different styles. If you think because you've played kystedez you have the inside track on Wario I'll disagree with this. You'll never find two wario's who play the same. Because of how differently he is. However, limited characters such as sheik will as fall back and rely on the same things more or less. What's your set count with krystedez if you don't mind me asking ?

Outside of tippered usmash which kills at around 106 or something Mars said. What percentages do they other moves kill at ?

You seem rather salty that Sheik doesn't lose badly to Wario. You also seem to think we're trying to say we're "whoamg amazing" against Wario. We haven't said such, and we're not going to say such either. Let it sink in, and move on.

You're not a top wario, you don't play Sheik, you say needles are a bad projectile(I chuckled as well), and I'm not sure if you meant to say Wario, but you said, "There's not a lot Sheik can do against Falco, and the small things she does have can be avoided." I really hope you were joking. I can say that about any and every character in the game...does it actually happen that way? No. Please don't say fruitless things such as that. (Just an fyi: Falco's think Sheik is even or slightly in her adv, I wonder why. )


Wario's no cake walk if he plays gay, but it's certainly not 60-40 or anything, lol.

I'm not salty I just don't like when people overstate their advantages and start to generate false sentiments around their boards and big up their match ups *cough* Marth boards *cough*. If you want people to be able to learn the MU and understand things then you'll have to start being more realistic. If I said falco then I meant wario. I must of thought about falco. If they falco says the MU is even or in your favor it's because of the ftilt lock. Let's see a good projectile nades, falco's lasors wolfs lasors yoshi's eggs snake nades diddy's nanners. You can't effectively zone with needles nor can you camp with them. You can try to but it's not as effective as zoning tool as the other projectiles I've named. it moves in 2 arcs straight and diagonal. I forgot to mention T. Link Olimar.

Actually I can say that Wario can avoid these things because he can and run away Wario is one of the types of way that Wario can play and a lot of characters not have answers for. I also think it's at least 6-4 and it's not playing gay either. Sorry for not walking/running / jumping into ****. Would you kindly sit there and let me waft on you ?

No, I'm not a top Wario. I've dabbled with sheik a little in the past. Actually you'd be surprised about which characters I have played with/ haven't. I actually was learning sheik before I decided to learn Zelda however, that was a long time again. While I may not be a top Wario I think I do have enough knowledge to be able to speak on MU's until I can actually put what I know into matches I won't be a top Wario. I've been messing around with sheik again lately though since I've been using Zelda a lot more and was thinking a Zelda/Sheik combination may be better then going Zelda against snake. However, the only characters I've ever used in tourney are Marth, DK and Wario.


@choknater that was clever that's the first time anyone has every said that to me.

I wonder why da kidd only posted round one of that set of ominswell vs ankoku

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyKYu_BcLdo&feature=related

there's round 2 round three he goes marth

 

[da K.I.D.]

number 1. if you are going to refer to me, its KID. All caps. get it straight.

2. I posted that match because its a very good showcasing of sheik ability to outmanuver wario, use up tilt to beat all of warios aerial approaches with up tilt and get free needle damage on his landing. thats all.

3. ankoku, while he is a really cool guy, to my knowledge isnt a super top level player so saying that he lost the matchup or switched characters doesnt mean much to me.

4. He probably switched to marth because marth beats wario while shiek probably only goes even with him.

5. The FIRST two sentances of your last post was, 'sheiks needles force approaches?' and 'I dont know what shieks bair beats of warios.'
That alone is a firm basis to ignore everything you say, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

number 1. if you are going to refer to me, its KID. All caps. get it straight.

2. I posted that match because its a very good showcasing of sheik ability to outmanuver wario, use up tilt to beat all of warios aerial approaches with up tilt and get free needle damage on his landing. thats all.

3. ankoku, while he is a really cool guy, to my knowledge isnt a super top level player so saying that he lost the matchup or switched characters doesnt mean much to me.

4. He probably switched to marth because marth beats wario while shiek probably only goes even with him.

5. The FIRST two sentances of your last post was, 'sheiks needles force approaches?' and 'I dont know what shieks bair beats of warios.'
That alone is a firm basis to ignore everything you say, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

1 I don't care bout your name.
2. Sheik throw needles at me isn't going to force approach it's not a projectile that forces approaches.
3. I said I don't know if she's bair has more range than Wario's Bair.
4. That video shows what happens if the Wario dominates the who game then eventually does nothing and let sheiks comes back
5. . Learn to actually read post. Get the stick out your ***. and Relax kid.

 

[da K.I.D.]

and you expect people to take you seriously when you cant even give someone the common courtesy and respect to spell their name correctly?


also, why are you even here? honestly? all youve done is state your unbudging opinion on how bad sheik is. what does that contribute? honestly, if thats all youre going to do, whats the point of even coming here in the first place?
serious question, I really want to know.

 

[-Cross-]

I'm not salty I just don't like when people overstate their advantages and start to generate false sentiments around their boards and big up their match ups *cough* Marth boards *cough*. If you want people to be able to learn the MU and understand things then you'll have to start being more realistic. You can't effectively zone with needles nor can you camp with them. You can try to but it's not as effective as zoning tool as the other projectiles I've named. it moves in 2 arcs straight and diagonal. I forgot to mention T. Link Olimar.

lol Marth boards is such an extreme example to compare this to; in fact, it's not even an example because we have never overstated our advantages. I was a part of Marth boards since the beginning of Brawl until like mid 2009, and looking back I do realize how bad it was. Of course I didn't at the time, but it was different back then. So much theorycrafting and arrogance, the game was young, Marth metagame was young, and most of the contributors were new to the whole competitve scene, it's easy to see how such a thing happened. However, you should also realize that Marth is a very good character and the fact that he has 50-50 and 60-40 MU's on most of the cast does not change.

Needles aren't meant for zoning nor do they actually force an approach. That's not the point of needles though. I'm going to assume out the extreme example of Wario camping from the start and not trying to approach at all, because frankly if it starts at that point the MU is a much different game. Now that we have assumed out this case, if I understand correctly Wario's best approaches are with his aerial approach game. Needles' strength shines here because if you do not commit to an aerial approach as in actually get into Sheik's zone and potentially land a hit/threaten her, then Sheik can use needles to punish your landing lag. No it's not guaranteed damage, but it's safe and reliable damage for Sheik. Even if you actually threaten her, Sheik still has the option of reseting her spacing by running away, and punishing your landing lag again. Needles are still baitable and you can still avoid them, but can you see where needles can be seen as a strength in a MU against a character that jumps a lot?

Also even if that is how you naturally speak, I hope you can put a little respect in how you post, even if the MU was obviously in your favor doesn't give you the right to just walk in here and post with an attitude of "your character is trash 60-40", if you actually want to learn/discuss the MU like you said then at least post like you do. Otherwise you should kindly gtfo.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

and you expect people to take you seriously when you cant even give someone the common courtesy and respect to spell their name correctly?


also, why are you even here? honestly? all youve done is state your unbudging opinion on how bad sheik is. what does that contribute? honestly, if thats all youre going to do, whats the point of even coming here in the first place?
serious question, I really want to know.

It's not the fact that I don't have the common courtesy to spell your name right or wrong however, when you go over the top the way you did in your post and said my name is KID all caps and use it that way. My response to you taking that stance is me not giving a **** if you're so up in arms about it. If you would of been like oh you spelled my name wrong and I prefer all caps then I'd would understand however, you came at my neck and I don't take too kindly to that. So i'll tell you this I didn't intentionally spell your name wrong nor did I realize I spelled it wrong. With that said I'm going to move on to your next point.

I'm here to discuss the sheik MU. When I approach a MU I think of the tools a character has and their options over my character. I'm not saying ZOMG sheik is bad pick up MK lawl. I've talked about sheiks strengths (jab, ftilt shenanigans, GR) and her weakness her lack or range and her being light and her recovery. So for me when I approach this MU I take these things into account and try to exploit her weakness's while reducing her strengths and with a Character like Wario I can do that. Her projectile doesn't force me to approach so I can effectively camp her. That's all I was trying to get across. Not sheik can pressure wario while he's recovering and whatever else was flying around.

@cross I won't comment on the Marth stuff since that's going too far off topic but a lot of the things you brought up about those boards is right. If you use needles that way I can see how that could work. Also I'm not aware of what you mean about my post and the respect. I don't see why people get up in arms about my post anyways. You may want to be careful all the other sheiks have claimed needles being capable of forcing wario to approach.

 

[da K.I.D.]

your talking about shieks general strengths, and you are some what ignoring the niche stuff that is matchup dependant. of course, sheik doesnt have mk or marth range, but in the context of vs wario, she clearly has superior range in just about every situation.

her projectile doesnt force you to approach in the idea that she can just throw it out at max range every half second with complete safety the way someone like falco can. its more along the lines of if you try to do that BS air camping with the airdodges and mobility, sheiks needles pretty much completely destroy that concept because he only has 2 jumps and after that he has to AD into the ground at which point he will eat up to 18% or so from needles. and the only way to really keep that from happening is for the wario to approach the sheik.

also a nice little thing to know, sheik SH and FH nair oos can punish warios dair on shield about 90% of the time, he cant move back far enough to not get hit by the strong hitbox.

 

[-Cross-]

Here's what I think when I come across a sheik.

He range isn't good. Her recover is balls. She's light. She's a FF and easy to juggle at low percentages. She also has a bad projectile. If I avoid her ftilt shenanigans she's screwed. She can't make force approaches. Her kill moves is balls. She'll be fishing for GR > usmash. When I knock her off stage I should throw my bike at her or use invincible nairs for gimps. As long as I play patiently and don't rush there really isn't anything she can do.

Well like I said, even if it is how you normally speak making this your first post in this thread was not a good start. Making statements such as "her .... is balls" is not good especially if you are making them without reasoning behind them. From this post, it just seemed like you were here to flame/troll and I hope you can see why. Although I understand this is not your original intent, you should realize what effects your words had.

Also imo this MU is essentially Wario baiting/getting the right read and then when he gets the right hit in, he can translate it into damage and possibly death. Sheik has better range and equal or more quickness on her moves with little post lag on her counters to Wario's moves which is why Wario will be the disadvantaged one in direct offense imo. Also a camping Wario does not impress me terribly either, especially due to the fact that Sheik has a frame trap on air dodge, if Wario's air camping and guaranteed punishes against Wario's spot dodge. The reason why the MU is even is because of how easily Wario can destroy Sheik if he gets into the advantageous position along with how long it will take to kill Wario bar grab release.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

your talking about shieks general strengths, and you are some what ignoring the niche stuff that is matchup dependant. of course, sheik doesnt have mk or marth range, but in the context of vs wario, she clearly has superior range in just about every situation.

We've already came to a conclusion that Wario's Ftilt has more range on it than any of sheik's grounded moves. If we compare each other's Fair's bair's and nair's does sheik really have the range advantage? I'm not sure but if you want the range advantage that's fine that's nothing new to Wario.

her projectile doesnt force you to approach in the idea that she can just throw it out at max range every half second with complete safety the way someone like falco can. its more along the lines of if you try to do that BS air camping with the airdodges and mobility, sheiks needles pretty much completely destroy that concept because he only has 2 jumps and after that he has to AD into the ground at which point he will eat up to 18% or so from needles. and the only way to really keep that from happening is for the wario to approach the sheik.

Why are you assuming that the wario is doing things that you're able to punish ? what if I jump from one end of the stage to other? What if I bike wario has 3 jumps. What if I don't air dodge and just fF and PS. What's your position in relation to wario? What if my bike is in between me and you? Are there no platforms for me to land on?

also a nice little thing to know, sheik SH and FH nair oos can punish warios dair on shield about 90% of the time, he cant move back far enough to not get hit by the strong hitbox.

That is nice to know. I'll try to keep that in mind.

Well like I said, even if it is how you normally speak making this your first post in this thread was not a good start. Making statements such as "her .... is balls" is not good especially if you are making them without reasoning behind them. From this post, it just seemed like you were here to flame/troll and I hope you can see why. Although I understand this is not your original intent, you should realize what effects your words had.

Like I said in the first post when I come across a sheik this is what goes through my mind. I shouldn't have to explain how/why how recovery is bad when you guys already know why/how it's bad. It's not a news flash that sheiks recovery is balls nor is it a news flash that she's lacking in range and power. I know that if you don't get a GR to Usmash on me I'm not going to die under 150 and that's being generous.

Also imo this MU is essentially Wario baiting/getting the right read and then when he gets the right hit in, he can translate it into damage and possibly death. Sheik has better range and equal or more quickness on her moves with little post lag on her counters to Wario's moves which is why Wario will be the disadvantaged one in direct offense imo. Also a camping Wario does not impress me terribly either, especially due to the fact that Sheik has a frame trap on air dodge, if Wario's air camping and guaranteed punishes against Wario's spot dodge. The reason why the MU is even is because of how easily Wario can destroy Sheik if he gets into the advantageous position along with how long it will take to kill Wario bar grab release.

I'm not really sure if sheik has better range. But if you guys want to win the range battle thats fine. Also you're pretty much describing how Wario is played. Baiting/get a read/punishing. However, I wouldn't be willing to say the MU is in shiek's favor because of her range and the needle thing you guys keep bringing up. A camping Wario doesn't need to impress you it just needs to win. The fact that my character lives longer than yours and get's stronger as the time goes up is good enough for me. The fact that you die so early is also good enough for me. There's plenty of factors that goes into a MU with Wario. I argue one play style which is camping. Not everyone Wario air dodges into the ground. Not every wario camps. Some are more aggresive some or less. Some use their bikes to camp. This discussion / argument or whatever the hell you want to call it has gone on for 3 pages and we haven't even said anything about bite. How does Sheik's moves interact with bite ? Which of her ground/air moves are disjointed and beat this out? But no one want's to talk about this everyone just wants the Wario to either be super aggro or fall into the some stupid air dodging into the ground pattern. His bite or Bike (even though I brought it up) Hasn't been mentioned be any of you sheiks. Maybe my original post distracted you guys from this however, I didn't see any mention of this.

What I did see/ do see is you guys consistently talking about the options you have over him with out even really talking about his options. If you guys want to see that this MU is even then fine that's your choice. However, like I've said I don't really see much of anything sheik has on Wario. So continue to cling on to the little options sheik does have on him. I don't really care. If I derailed your MU thread which you guys seem to be saying sense everyone's focus is on me and not the MU i'll just stop posting and let you guys continue.


However, before I go I'd really like to know how in the hell does sheik harass wario's recovery?

 

[-Mars-]

I mentioned bite in my post on the first page. Nice approach for Wario but it doesnt have a major affect on the MU. I hope you aren't asking me to list you moves that beat out bite if your just standing there. Otherwise Wario will land bite the way he usually does.....when he reads a shield or spotdodge.

 

[Judo777]

We've already came to a conclusion that Wario's Ftilt has more range on it than any of sheik's grounded moves. If we compare each other's Fair's bair's and nair's does sheik really have the range advantage? I'm not sure but if you want the range advantage that's fine that's nothing new to Wario.



Why are you assuming that the wario is doing things that you're able to punish ? what if I jump from one end of the stage to other? What if I bike wario has 3 jumps. What if I don't air dodge and just fF and PS. What's your position in relation to wario? What if my bike is in between me and you? Are there no platforms for me to land on?



That is nice to know. I'll try to keep that in mind.



Like I said in the first post when I come across a sheik this is what goes through my mind. I shouldn't have to explain how/why how recovery is bad when you guys already know why/how it's bad. It's not a news flash that sheiks recovery is balls nor is it a news flash that she's lacking in range and power. I know that if you don't get a GR to Usmash on me I'm not going to die under 150 and that's being generous.




I'm not really sure if sheik has better range. But if you guys want to win the range battle thats fine. Also you're pretty much describing how Wario is played. Baiting/get a read/punishing. However, I wouldn't be willing to say the MU is in shiek's favor because of her range and the needle thing you guys keep bringing up. A camping Wario doesn't need to impress you it just needs to win. The fact that my character lives longer than yours and get's stronger as the time goes up is good enough for me. The fact that you die so early is also good enough for me. There's plenty of factors that goes into a MU with Wario. I argue one play style which is camping. Not everyone Wario air dodges into the ground. Not every wario camps. Some are more aggresive some or less. Some use their bikes to camp. This discussion / argument or whatever the hell you want to call it has gone on for 3 pages and we haven't even said anything about bite. How does Sheik's moves interact with bite ? Which of her ground/air moves are disjointed and beat this out? But no one want's to talk about this everyone just wants the Wario to either be super aggro or fall into the some stupid air dodging into the ground pattern. His bite or Bike (even though I brought it up) Hasn't been mentioned be any of you sheiks. Maybe my original post distracted you guys from this however, I didn't see any mention of this.

What I did see/ do see is you guys consistently talking about the options you have over him with out even really talking about his options. If you guys want to see that this MU is even then fine that's your choice. However, like I've said I don't really see much of anything sheik has on Wario. So continue to cling on to the little options sheik does have on him. I don't really care. If I derailed your MU thread which you guys seem to be saying sense everyone's focus is on me and not the MU i'll just stop posting and let you guys continue.


However, before I go I'd really like to know how in the hell does sheik harass wario's recovery?

My record with Kryz is 0-3 every set being 2-1. I generally win game 1.
I have however played a few other warios tho none of them very reputable.

Now i ask how many good sheiks have you played?

Also i quoted you simply so you knew who i was addressing.