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[WA] Perth Smash Thread
- Thread starter Vlade
- Start date
Technically MK's air dodge is the best. By frame relation only. Wario may have an acceptable recovery in always getting back to the stage, but it is no where near as versatile as MKs. And off the top of my head, Dedede's ftilt and fsmash, IC's blizzard, Lucario's fsmash are some of the only moves in the game to out disjoint MK.
Ness and Lucas may have good anti-grab games, but you mention ICs and Dedede, whilst MK has better grab set ups than both of them.
Force an approach? How about using MK's amazing approach options, get the higher damage, then use his amazing defense and evasive game to force you to approach? MK can force any Falco to approach, MK can force any Snake to approach.
Lucas has a subpar projectile game, when you are to consider how much more detrimental pew pew run away projectilers are (Falco, Pikachu, TOON LINK, Snake to a degree). He does not have a safe, effective range. Lucas has no instantaenous solutions to tornado. Tornado is better used as a punisher to everything, and Lucas has no way to avoid that.
MK outranges Snake.
The second hit of Snake's Ftilt has comparable range (I believe it does slightly outrange but not outdisjoint some of MK's moves). DK for examples outranges MK but doesn't outdisjoint him at all.
Snake's disjoints are stupid for his character, but are less than MKs.
Lucas does not really limit MK's options at all. In some matchups his ability to force punishable options is lessened, and those characters are not really located in Low Tier. Bowser has great aerial mobility and an effective ISJ, better kill power, and a great punisher (Fortress). I'd argue Bowser does better against MK than Lucas does.
And I know you're not arguing MK shouldnt be top, nor Lucas having it in his favour.
Ness and Lucas may have good anti-grab games, but you mention ICs and Dedede, whilst MK has better grab set ups than both of them.
Force an approach? How about using MK's amazing approach options, get the higher damage, then use his amazing defense and evasive game to force you to approach? MK can force any Falco to approach, MK can force any Snake to approach.
Lucas has a subpar projectile game, when you are to consider how much more detrimental pew pew run away projectilers are (Falco, Pikachu, TOON LINK, Snake to a degree). He does not have a safe, effective range. Lucas has no instantaenous solutions to tornado. Tornado is better used as a punisher to everything, and Lucas has no way to avoid that.
MK outranges Snake.
The second hit of Snake's Ftilt has comparable range (I believe it does slightly outrange but not outdisjoint some of MK's moves). DK for examples outranges MK but doesn't outdisjoint him at all.
Snake's disjoints are stupid for his character, but are less than MKs.
Lucas does not really limit MK's options at all. In some matchups his ability to force punishable options is lessened, and those characters are not really located in Low Tier. Bowser has great aerial mobility and an effective ISJ, better kill power, and a great punisher (Fortress). I'd argue Bowser does better against MK than Lucas does.
And I know you're not arguing MK shouldnt be top, nor Lucas having it in his favour.
Jupz
Smash Master
You can't punish PK fire if he spaces it and uses it in the air.
Pete278
Smash Lord
A Lucas approaching from a position where Dtilt will hit him is not really a good Lucas.
EDIT:
I can't really be bothered to quote block again so quickly, so I'll just comment on some major stuff rather than going point by point:
Yes, he does have a subpar projectile game, but relative to MK, his projectile game is good mostly due to MK not having a projectile. He may not have instantaneous punishers for Tornado, but if given enough time, dair, and either PK-Fire or (if you have enough accuracy with it) its possible to use PK-Thunder, although most Lucases really haven't got the accuracy to be quick enough with Thunder.
The main hideous disjoint I was thinking of for Snake was utilt, with its huge hitbox and relatively minor hitbox. Really, it should not be capable of stagespiking if they recover from underneath, and I doubt MK has a really huge hitbox comparable to that. If he has and I've missed it, my apologies there.
Also, some people do claim Bowser vs MK isn't as bad as 70-30, but Trav seems to yell at anyone who thinks so. Johns, or maybe it really is 70-30.
Jupz
Smash Master
How else is he gonna approach? lol everything else will be punished with UpB OOS.
off to bball tryouts
off to bball tryouts
Pete278
Smash Lord
Dair has a hitbox on the side of Lucas that knocks MK out of Shuttle Loop.
Technodeath
Smash Champion
who really cares for the Lucas v MK matchup?
because i certainly dont
because i certainly dont
Pete278
Smash Lord
Fair call, fair call.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Lucas players? 
But honestly, I'm completely with Shaya here. The more I verse Metaknight (which isn't all that often in Perth) the more I realise how many options he has for everything I do. The only reason I'm really beating these MK players is because I outsmart them since it's easy to tell what MK's best option is. The fact that he has so many good options is the problem, a good MK will always be mixing it up and winning the 'rock paper scissors.'
Metaknight has the best defensive options in the game by far. Due to brawl's mechanics it is very possible to just force an opponent to approach even without projectiles (yes, falco is FORCED to approach MK at times). Then he just upb's OOS or whatever.
Metaknight deals very good damage from any perspective too, and so easily as well. Look at his ****ing tornado. His nair does 19 god**** % percent when connected perfectly. His dthrow does like 10% I think, same with his uthrow.
Oh god don't get me started with MK's ****ing dsmash. It's what I call the 'panic button' which MK's go to whenever they're under pressure. All they do is spam c-stick down and it ****ING WORKS. On top of that, it's literally unpunishable, you might as well not bother.
I also believe MK has 'built-in mindgames'. Just do a fsmash and it breaks a spotdodge rofl.
Yeah I used to completely disagree with the idea of MK being banned, but as I keep versing this character the more and more I think he's 'bannable'. But I still lean towards the anti-ban side simply because characters CAN win against him, although it takes a **** load of work and a **** load of smarts and wits.
But honestly, I'm completely with Shaya here. The more I verse Metaknight (which isn't all that often in Perth) the more I realise how many options he has for everything I do. The only reason I'm really beating these MK players is because I outsmart them since it's easy to tell what MK's best option is. The fact that he has so many good options is the problem, a good MK will always be mixing it up and winning the 'rock paper scissors.'
Metaknight has the best defensive options in the game by far. Due to brawl's mechanics it is very possible to just force an opponent to approach even without projectiles (yes, falco is FORCED to approach MK at times). Then he just upb's OOS or whatever.
Metaknight deals very good damage from any perspective too, and so easily as well. Look at his ****ing tornado. His nair does 19 god**** % percent when connected perfectly. His dthrow does like 10% I think, same with his uthrow.
Oh god don't get me started with MK's ****ing dsmash. It's what I call the 'panic button' which MK's go to whenever they're under pressure. All they do is spam c-stick down and it ****ING WORKS. On top of that, it's literally unpunishable, you might as well not bother.
I also believe MK has 'built-in mindgames'. Just do a fsmash and it breaks a spotdodge rofl.
Yeah I used to completely disagree with the idea of MK being banned, but as I keep versing this character the more and more I think he's 'bannable'. But I still lean towards the anti-ban side simply because characters CAN win against him, although it takes a **** load of work and a **** load of smarts and wits.
Pete278
Smash Lord
I think Tyr getting M2K down to 60% on his last stock on a neutral stage, and Nasty doing the same to M2k during a friendly back when he was more meh than he is now (i.e. not the best Lucas on a coast, only top 5 ) should be proof enough that Lucas vs MK isn't that bad, though.
MK makes me appreciate how close to the rest of the cast Sagat is, though.
EDIT: Vlade, change your signature, or I swear I'll find out how you managed to put nicotine in image form.
) should be proof enough that Lucas vs MK isn't that bad, though.MK makes me appreciate how close to the rest of the cast Sagat is, though.
EDIT: Vlade, change your signature, or I swear I'll find out how you managed to put nicotine in image form.
Vlade
Social Outcast
It's addicting, huh? 
Pete278
Smash Lord
When I look at it once, its like I have to watch it for four more playthroughs.
Technodeath
Smash Champion
not our fault they're really good looking
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
Vex agree's Bowser vs MK is 70:30, though I think it's closer to 65:35. Once MK figures out the matchup there's not much Bowser can do, all they need is a percent/stock lead and can effectively camp out the rest of the match.
I actually saw Lord Bowser beat Muzga in a money match him using bowser and muzga using metaknight. When trav won he didn't accept the taking of money of muzga. That is true play right there.
Cannot wait for christmas holidays.
Cannot wait for christmas holidays.
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
Don't get any ideas people, I have no qualms leaving you broke.
True Romance
Smash Ace
Tyr getting M2K down to his last stock doesnt mean ****.I think Tyr getting M2K down to 60% on his last stock on a neutral stage, and Nasty doing the same to M2k during a friendly back when he was more meh than he is now (i.e. not the best Lucas on a coast, only top 5
MK makes me appreciate how close to the rest of the cast Sagat is, though.
EDIT: Vlade, change your signature, or I swear I'll find out how you managed to put nicotine in image form.
If people don't realise by now match up experience counts for something...
Alot of boards still have fail match up threads, an example just recently was gnw boards having gannon and falco both as 60-40 advantages. So so so silly. Tonnes of match ups need to be reassessed, and people who look to character boards as the be all and end all of how match ups work need to wake up and actually make some common sense assessments from their own match up experience.
Lucas AND Ness vs MK is not better then 65-35 MK's favour IMO. And although I admit I haven't played an abundant amount of Lucas players, my experience in the match up is you get Lucas off stage and then he dies.
Richard7
Smash Ace
Pretty much EXACTLY what I think about Falco. And of course, MK.
Pete278
Smash Lord
M2K has played quite a few high class Lucas', though. Its not like he was playing against Lucas for the very first time.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
I have only been half assedly skimming these arguements but let me say this
first of all I have said this many many times, but NO ONE in Australia knows how to use metaknight properly, that means that he's not really a problem here, but it also means that many of your opinions on him sadly, are wrong.
second, shaya knows what he's talking about, we've been to America, we've met and played all the world famous players, we stayed with havok (one of the best MK's) for like 2 weeks and he taught us heaps of ****.
my point? MK is the best character in the game by a LOOOOOONG shot (if only I could say that about link right?)
first of all I have said this many many times, but NO ONE in Australia knows how to use metaknight properly, that means that he's not really a problem here, but it also means that many of your opinions on him sadly, are wrong.
second, shaya knows what he's talking about, we've been to America, we've met and played all the world famous players, we stayed with havok (one of the best MK's) for like 2 weeks and he taught us heaps of ****.
my point? MK is the best character in the game by a LOOOOOONG shot (if only I could say that about link right?)
How about we quit brawl and start doing some other things.
I don't see the point in going in tourneys and trying to improve to become better since really you are just lol to the Americans. Some people in Australia could do well there but only a few. The only reasons i can see for going to a tourney is to have fun and get along with people and just lol in general not to improve since imo that will never happen.
I don't see the point in going in tourneys and trying to improve to become better since really you are just lol to the Americans. Some people in Australia could do well there but only a few. The only reasons i can see for going to a tourney is to have fun and get along with people and just lol in general not to improve since imo that will never happen.
Improving within your own bounds is what it IS all about though.
You think local soccer teams give a rats *** they'll never be able to play for their country against other nations?
Teams and players striving to beat their opponents is all that matters.
This also applies to smash.
And having America in your scope for 'opponents' is both a depressing and a striving factor to play more/better.
But I can guarantee you it isn't in yours.
You think local soccer teams give a rats *** they'll never be able to play for their country against other nations?
Teams and players striving to beat their opponents is all that matters.
This also applies to smash.
And having America in your scope for 'opponents' is both a depressing and a striving factor to play more/better.
But I can guarantee you it isn't in yours.
Vlade
Social Outcast
I think people who haven't been to America still deserve a say, even though we haven't versed the top MK players that doesn't mean we can't understand his limitless options as a character.
Technically there isn't a universally 'proper' way to use MK (or any character for that matter) as per say, it's really what personally works for you. You can argue about this all day if you wish but M2K definitely plays more aggressively than say, Spammer who camps a lot more and is still very successful (not sure if he plays anymore though). Obviously, there are going to be universally accepted things which work for the character but I don't believe that a universally proper playstyle exists because that means everyone will be playing exactly the same.
Technically there isn't a universally 'proper' way to use MK (or any character for that matter) as per say, it's really what personally works for you. You can argue about this all day if you wish but M2K definitely plays more aggressively than say, Spammer who camps a lot more and is still very successful (not sure if he plays anymore though). Obviously, there are going to be universally accepted things which work for the character but I don't believe that a universally proper playstyle exists because that means everyone will be playing exactly the same.
Pete278
Smash Lord
I'm considering quitting Brawl and maining SF4 as my fighting game, thanks to this argument making me appreciate Sagat having actual flaws. Pros and cons?
Technodeath
Smash Champion
are you being serious pete?
Pete278
Smash Lord
100% so. I know some guys in the SF4 scene, so I can switch easily if need be.
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
Con: None of us.
That should pretty much do it.
That should pretty much do it.
Technodeath
Smash Champion
well fair enough i suppose, i've played SF4 and whatnot, but i've never been good at it, im alright at tekken, pretty good in soul calibur and whatnot. i hated Melee when i first played it, sort of liked it the second time, and then brawl came out. been hooked ever since.
it's probably one of my more favourite games of all time aside from FF7/8/10, Donkey Kong64 and a few other retro titles.
it's probably one of my more favourite games of all time aside from FF7/8/10, Donkey Kong64 and a few other retro titles.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
yea I can see where your coming from Vlade, and its a valid point, its just that alot of "people who havnt been to America" say things out of ignorance, and I dont mean that in an insulting way, I meant that in a ok sure lets go with the ignorant oppinion istead of the well informed opinion.
see what I'm getting at?
but yeah alzi America both does and doesnt matter here, but when we went there we got 3 stocked by pretty much everyone, the standard is so much higher.
of course by the end of the trip we'd gotten pretty good and were placing decently but then we came home and got suck again.
moral of the story? dont you dare send corpse to America
see what I'm getting at?
but yeah alzi America both does and doesnt matter here, but when we went there we got 3 stocked by pretty much everyone, the standard is so much higher.
of course by the end of the trip we'd gotten pretty good and were placing decently but then we came home and got suck again.
moral of the story? dont you dare send corpse to America
Vlade
Social Outcast
Just go to both Pete
You could go to SF4 but at least drop by every now and then
And yeah i see where you're coming from Luke
Shaya just said Dsmash IS punishable with some solid frame data to prove so. That is probably one of the things I said out of ignorance (since I just don't know how to punish it safely)
You could go to SF4 but at least drop by every now and then
And yeah i see where you're coming from Luke
Shaya just said Dsmash IS punishable with some solid frame data to prove so. That is probably one of the things I said out of ignorance (since I just don't know how to punish it safely)
Jupz
Smash Master
Ehh. I know how to use MK and beat him but sometimes its hard to put it into practice.
Also pete why the hell would I UpB into your Dair??I'll shield then upB OOS. Or just Utilt it. Just verse me with Lucas if you want.
MK is good but hes beatable. Dsmash is punishable of course. Thats why you learn matchups. Especially if you grab first hit you can get more stuff in.
Just can't wait for the 29th. If I win hopefully I can come to squat. But I probs wont cause sam is too good
Also pete why the hell would I UpB into your Dair??I'll shield then upB OOS. Or just Utilt it. Just verse me with Lucas if you want.
MK is good but hes beatable. Dsmash is punishable of course. Thats why you learn matchups. Especially if you grab first hit you can get more stuff in.
Just can't wait for the 29th. If I win hopefully I can come to squat. But I probs wont cause sam is too good
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
not to harp on or anything, but I wouldnt say MK is beatable,
I think it'd be more accurate to say, "x" player is beatable
MK's only real weakness's are being light and the fact that pretty much everyone knows the matchup somewhat.
I think it'd be more accurate to say, "x" player is beatable
MK's only real weakness's are being light and the fact that pretty much everyone knows the matchup somewhat.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Jupz
Smash Master
Lol. He better not get banned though. Just learn to deal with him or pick him up
No-one has any right to complain; we all have the chance to pick up MK. If you don't main MK, then don't complain. Lol
No-one has any right to complain; we all have the chance to pick up MK. If you don't main MK, then don't complain. Lol
Bsrk_
Smash Ace
Nice point_ It's not just your characters flaws you are looking for but also (especially) your opponents_ Although a character may have a better overall advantage, it doesn't mean that the player will play a perfect match everytime_ You need to work unpredictability into your favour_ Luke's comment sums this up nicely_
Vlade
Social Outcast
Bob why don't you use msn anymore?
Just curious
And you should get on skype. Same with everyone else
Just curious
And you should get on skype. Same with everyone else
Technodeath
Smash Champion
you dont see or hear me complaining.
Jupz
Smash Master
I wanna get skype but I need a microphone...