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W00t Were Low Tier Guys!
- Thread starter imdavid
- Start date
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
The only real other person I ever played was a Luigi.
He's not a Sheik Killer. A bit of a challenge. Takes some time to adjust.
His powerful moves and her ridiculous light nature don't go well together. That's pretty much Sheik's biggest weakness. She's as light as a ****ing feather. Ninjas need to eat more.
He's not a Sheik Killer. A bit of a challenge. Takes some time to adjust.
His powerful moves and her ridiculous light nature don't go well together. That's pretty much Sheik's biggest weakness. She's as light as a ****ing feather. Ninjas need to eat more.
lol, that they do
Well, this isn't an official tier list guys so don't get your hopes up/ dreams crushed. Just because its made by a few "popular smashers" it does not prove anything. And in my opinion, this seems to be quite inaccurate.....but don't get me started on that.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
I think the problem with Sheik is that her game is totally different to Melee. It's a sharper learning curve, on a completely different graph.
Mario is very much the same, for example, in terms of play style. Sheik's strategies and moves ahve changed drastically. Once people begin adapting to this, Sheik might come back to her former glory.
Mario is very much the same, for example, in terms of play style. Sheik's strategies and moves ahve changed drastically. Once people begin adapting to this, Sheik might come back to her former glory.
TigerWoods
Smash Champion
True, we just need more (good) players. And I'm really the only shiek/zelda player in my area (0.0) and i get a few surprises, like...
"WTF SHE TILT LOCKS??"
"HUH THE CHAIN CANT DO THAT!"
"VANISH IS REALLY GAY"
"SHES FAST??"
^which are the basics?
"WTF SHE TILT LOCKS??"
"HUH THE CHAIN CANT DO THAT!"
"VANISH IS REALLY GAY"
"SHES FAST??"
^which are the basics?
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
Still better than bowser.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
Sheik doesn't need Zelda that badly. Upsmash and Vanish are pretty good kill moves, Zelda is just a good option because all her moves are kill moves and all those kill moves are fresh. If Sheik could refresh her moves at high percent, barely anyone would transform.
Umm... yes she does.
Vanish is not a good kill move... it has good killing "potential". Good kill moves are usually safe or easier to land.
Upsmash is ok, but most players use it for damaging. That being said, it would be pretty **** decayed when your opponent is reaching KOing %s, plus you kinda have to sweetspot it regardless.
Zelda isn't just good option, she's the best option in.
Vanish is not a good kill move... it has good killing "potential". Good kill moves are usually safe or easier to land.
Upsmash is ok, but most players use it for damaging. That being said, it would be pretty **** decayed when your opponent is reaching KOing %s, plus you kinda have to sweetspot it regardless.
Zelda isn't just good option, she's the best option in.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Yeah down b is our weapon. Since sheik got nerfed in terms of KO potential, we'll have to use down b as our best KO move.
Sheik is middle tier anyway, well she will be in the end.
Sheik is middle tier anyway, well she will be in the end.
Teir don't define how good a character is. It is a hint at the current meta game. if you aren't happy with shiekds spot make her better. If you are using her placing as an excuse for your losses you aren't an actual shiek player, you aren't even a competitive smash player IMO.
Hmm...
It's true that tiers don't exactly define how good a character is. Kirby was definitely the worst in Melee, but Mewtwo was the lowest on the tier list. There was pretty much one good Mewtwo player, Taj... who used Marth (wonder why). But...they're both bottom tier... and they both suck booty, so tiers do have some influence on how good a character can be.
"I can't win with Pichu, I think it's because he's bottom tier. Guess, I'm not a real player *shrug*"
What do you want someone like that to do lol? He can be an amazing Pichu player and still get beat by any decent Sheik (ex. Chu Dat vs Inui).
It's true that tiers don't exactly define how good a character is. Kirby was definitely the worst in Melee, but Mewtwo was the lowest on the tier list. There was pretty much one good Mewtwo player, Taj... who used Marth (wonder why). But...they're both bottom tier... and they both suck booty, so tiers do have some influence on how good a character can be.
"I can't win with Pichu, I think it's because he's bottom tier. Guess, I'm not a real player
*shrug*"What do you want someone like that to do lol? He can be an amazing Pichu player and still get beat by any decent Sheik (ex. Chu Dat vs Inui).
ADHD
Smash Hero
First off, tiers > skill in brawl, this is mostly true. Not now though, near the end of brawl the tiers will be pretty much correct, some characters are just underrated. I don't even think Mew2King can win a large tourney with captain falcon or even stand a chance.Hmm...
It's true that tiers don't exactly define how good a character is. Kirby was definitely the worst in Melee, but Mewtwo was the lowest on the tier list. There was pretty much one good Mewtwo player, Taj... who used Marth (wonder why). But...they're both bottom tier... and they both suck booty, so tiers do have some influence on how good a character can be.
"I can't win with Pichu, I think it's because he's bottom tier. Guess, I'm not a real player
What do you want someone like that to do lol? He can be an amazing Pichu player and still get beat by any decent Sheik (ex. Chu Dat vs Inui).
It was possible for Taj to win a tourney with mewtwo, all the way in bottom tier, the lowest of the bottom.
Depends what tournys. I've only heard of him going Mewtwo in tourneys within his state. I should also probably add that he's one of the best Melee Marth players.
He even made a post in the upcoming months before Brawl saying "yeah, I'm going to actually go Mewtwo in tournaments now".
But yea, good players using low tiers stand a better chance in Melee then Brawl fo sho.
He even made a post in the upcoming months before Brawl saying "yeah, I'm going to actually go Mewtwo in tournaments now".
But yea, good players using low tiers stand a better chance in Melee then Brawl fo sho.
The Great Leon
Smash Champion
Me thinks that Sheik was designed to switch to Zelda to finish a stock. They synergize really well, seeing that Sheik has high damage potential/low kill potential while Zelda is the exact opposite. Not that this list, or a list at all, really matters, but I would imagine that Sheik was ranked as Sheik and not Sheik/Zelda.
NJ, I think you know what I mean. I'm sure you remember I played pichu quite a bit in melee, thats probably where most of my attitude regarding this comes from. While I can't really put what I mean into words, I think the ideology should be more of a "I can't find a way around my characters weaknesses yet." and not "No one else can why should I feel the need to."Hmm...
It's true that tiers don't exactly define how good a character is. Kirby was definitely the worst in Melee, but Mewtwo was the lowest on the tier list. There was pretty much one good Mewtwo player, Taj... who used Marth (wonder why). But...they're both bottom tier... and they both suck booty, so tiers do have some influence on how good a character can be.
"I can't win with Pichu, I think it's because he's bottom tier. Guess, I'm not a real player
What do you want someone like that to do lol? He can be an amazing Pichu player and still get beat by any decent Sheik (ex. Chu Dat vs Inui).
And I'm not really saying that to everyone either I guess but more to people who pick up a lot teir for compedetive play and use "My characters sucks" as an excuse for their losses.b If you main marth and win every day and switch over to pichu and fail you obviously wouldn't be in this same catagory.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
I really hope you're kidding.
Sheik is better than you seem to think. Trying practicing with her a little.
!!!, that's a perfect way to put it.
I'm not kidding and... I main Sheik.
I realized Bowser's potential from talking to/looking up some of the Midwest players. You should look up Kishsquared... he goes stock for stock with Overswarms ROB with Bowser and does well in tournaments. He's actually the only player I know of that even mains Bowser and uses him in tournaments.
You have to take a long look at both characters before you just go around comparing any two SinkingHigher. There are a lot of things I just won't compare because I don't know the limits of that character at all.
Like jigglypuff, I haven't put any effort of my own into the character or any into research so I can't accurately tell you my opinion on match ups or even things as global as tier listings.
You should really understand both of the characters you are comparing or just keep comments about them to inquiry rather than declaration.
@ NJ
I guess what I really meant when I said:
That sound more fair?
Like jigglypuff, I haven't put any effort of my own into the character or any into research so I can't accurately tell you my opinion on match ups or even things as global as tier listings.
You should really understand both of the characters you are comparing or just keep comments about them to inquiry rather than declaration.
@ NJ
I guess what I really meant when I said:
was if you aren't playing with the intention of winning or progressing you aren't a competitive player.<3 said:
That sound more fair?
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I've used Bowser plenty. He was my secondary for two months or so, until i dropped him. To me, Sheik supported by Zelda (which is Sheik you guys. One of Sheik's moves is down B, so this is like saying "Snake supported by C4") definitely and certainly has more potential than Bowser. It's just my opinion, but i'm not uncertain about it. I'm aware of what bowser can do, he's got some cool features that really help him out. The whirling fortress is one of the best moves in the game, he has a grab attack, which can be shorthopped, in the air he's very very strong from the front, and on top of everything else, he kills at low percents.
Bowser is kind of impaired though, because there's not many different ways to play the character. He cah become very predictable after you practice against him. He has to work with the bad lag on his upair, so you know it's coming and you can airdodge it (i've found he has too much fall speed to mind game it usually). He has a limited number of approaches, i don't know the official list but the main one's i use is SH fire, SH klaw, and SH fair. Ness could see the spacing on that fire and have a field day. His bair has good range, but you can only do it once, and you can't miss. If you play someone familiar with it's big range, it can get airdodged and then you are done for, you can't do another aerial and you hit the ground with massive punishable landing lag. Once again, Bair is difficult to mindgame because Bowser doesn't move that well in the air. He has worse defense below him than either Sheik or Zelda, his dair is almost never used because of its risk, he uses nair for those below him and it doesn't have much range below it.
Bowsercide is very difficult to implement. Opponents know it's coming, and avoid the klaw, stay in the middle of the stage, and DI towards the stage. The damage difference between Bowser and his opponent must be so large that you might as well kill.
Sheik has many approaches, and doesn't even have to approach most of the cast at all. She has a great air game complemented by better aerial maneuverability. Her downsmash is several frames worse than the fortress, admittedly. Zelda gives Sheik a pretty equal kill game. Bowser's is still better, only because he doesn't have knock the opponent away before he gets his kill moves. She can combo, at ranges similar to which Bowser gets 10% take it or leave it. (I'm pretty sure Sheik's ftilt is outranged by Bowser's, but Sheik's has much better payoff). Most of the approaches Bowser can stop with ftilt are also stopped with the chain. Bowser is a big target and he gets comboed easily, Sheik is a fairly good combo breaker with nair. Sheik's needles have far less risky afterlag than Bowser's fire. Her grab game is much better. Her aerials are all allowed to miss, which is very important against people who have practiced against a character's aerials (many people observe players fighting Bowser for the first time and conclude the character is more useful than is true). Her jab is much faster than Bowser's.
Sheik is really a much much better character than Bowser as much as like the turtle.
Bowser is kind of impaired though, because there's not many different ways to play the character. He cah become very predictable after you practice against him. He has to work with the bad lag on his upair, so you know it's coming and you can airdodge it (i've found he has too much fall speed to mind game it usually). He has a limited number of approaches, i don't know the official list but the main one's i use is SH fire, SH klaw, and SH fair. Ness could see the spacing on that fire and have a field day. His bair has good range, but you can only do it once, and you can't miss. If you play someone familiar with it's big range, it can get airdodged and then you are done for, you can't do another aerial and you hit the ground with massive punishable landing lag. Once again, Bair is difficult to mindgame because Bowser doesn't move that well in the air. He has worse defense below him than either Sheik or Zelda, his dair is almost never used because of its risk, he uses nair for those below him and it doesn't have much range below it.
Bowsercide is very difficult to implement. Opponents know it's coming, and avoid the klaw, stay in the middle of the stage, and DI towards the stage. The damage difference between Bowser and his opponent must be so large that you might as well kill.
Sheik has many approaches, and doesn't even have to approach most of the cast at all. She has a great air game complemented by better aerial maneuverability. Her downsmash is several frames worse than the fortress, admittedly. Zelda gives Sheik a pretty equal kill game. Bowser's is still better, only because he doesn't have knock the opponent away before he gets his kill moves. She can combo, at ranges similar to which Bowser gets 10% take it or leave it. (I'm pretty sure Sheik's ftilt is outranged by Bowser's, but Sheik's has much better payoff). Most of the approaches Bowser can stop with ftilt are also stopped with the chain. Bowser is a big target and he gets comboed easily, Sheik is a fairly good combo breaker with nair. Sheik's needles have far less risky afterlag than Bowser's fire. Her grab game is much better. Her aerials are all allowed to miss, which is very important against people who have practiced against a character's aerials (many people observe players fighting Bowser for the first time and conclude the character is more useful than is true). Her jab is much faster than Bowser's.
Sheik is really a much much better character than Bowser as much as like the turtle.
I guess like wise to what I said earlier I should make assumptions about players knowledge.
i like low tier characters because people won't take them seriously until you wipe the floor with them. It takes more skill to win with lower tiers so when you do win against a higher tier then yourselve there are no excuses except to say that im better.
Serris
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
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Yeah. Right.
A character that can rack up 63% damage in under 5 seconds? Low tier?
Screw that list.
A character that can rack up 63% damage in under 5 seconds? Low tier?
Screw that list.
<3, thanks for clearing that up, I agree 100%.
popsofctown,... LOL, I'm not going even going to bother.
Serris, she doesn't rack up 63% in under 5 seconds. Assuming you're talking about the ftilt lock, it doesn't even rack up 63% on pretty much any character.
It's looking more and more that Sheik is now the new Roy. Only people who been on the boards for a decent amount will know what I mean when I say that. At least the Brawl Sheik forums aren't nearly as bad as the Melee Roy forums.
popsofctown,... LOL, I'm not going even going to bother.
Serris, she doesn't rack up 63% in under 5 seconds. Assuming you're talking about the ftilt lock, it doesn't even rack up 63% on pretty much any character.
It's looking more and more that Sheik is now the new Roy. Only people who been on the boards for a decent amount will know what I mean when I say that. At least the Brawl Sheik forums aren't nearly as bad as the Melee Roy forums.
Serris
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
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I was able to get 63% on a Marth in less than five seconds by doing f-tilt, u-tilt, d-smash, u-air, and u-smash.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
He's talking about the chainlock. Or that footstool combo.
Oh, nevermind then.
Well, that's 3 ways.
Oh, nevermind then.
Well, that's 3 ways.
WWOOOOOOOOOWWWWW, that Marth must be freaking terrible he if actually got hit repetitively by those moves in order.
Not even a tilt lock combo or even a jab combo on Marth works too well; his Up B is too good.
JackieRabbit5
Smash Journeyman
it seems like ur oversimplifying things...maybe when i've played as many competitive matches as u i might see what u mean better but for me the one constant about Brawl is that it isn't.
A Bowser can beat a Shiek and vice versa depending on innumerable factors during gameplay. It's like ppl think they can break down the game w/ math and statistics but i don't see how thats possible. Go ahead and call me a noob if u must but thats just my opinion
so maybe there are certain tendencies...but they don't decide everything
A Bowser can beat a Shiek and vice versa depending on innumerable factors during gameplay. It's like ppl think they can break down the game w/ math and statistics but i don't see how thats possible. Go ahead and call me a noob if u must but thats just my opinion
so maybe there are certain tendencies...but they don't decide everything
popsofctown
Smash Champion
That's a disrespectful way to hold a different opinion from me.
Drephen
Smash Master
guuuuuuysssssssss
i said this before in this thread
this is CHILLINDUDE829's tier list not the official one
shiek is not low "tier" as of currently
i said this before in this thread
this is CHILLINDUDE829's tier list not the official one
shiek is not low "tier" as of currently
imdavid
Smash Journeyman
Drephen for God Tier
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
I don't get it.
Why don't we just set all the players against one another as lvl9 CPUs. That way all this stuff about players being more experienced and what not will be invalid. Human influence in things like this is too great not to affect the outcome.
Say, for example, like, nobody ever plays... Mario. The few people that do play him happen to suck. Does that mean that he sucks? Um, noooo.
Tiers are full of crap. Not just because Sheik is low tier. I'm not that ignorant.
Anyway, there's no real way to prove tiers. Mainly because they don't exist. Ergo, CPUs should take over the world.
Why don't we just set all the players against one another as lvl9 CPUs. That way all this stuff about players being more experienced and what not will be invalid. Human influence in things like this is too great not to affect the outcome.
Say, for example, like, nobody ever plays... Mario. The few people that do play him happen to suck. Does that mean that he sucks? Um, noooo.
Tiers are full of crap. Not just because Sheik is low tier. I'm not that ignorant.
Anyway, there's no real way to prove tiers. Mainly because they don't exist. Ergo, CPUs should take over the world.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
I'd like to see a simple CPU tournament. Skill level more often than not will determine a match so with lvl 9's, they'll all be on an even field. Last one standing wins 
CPUs are morons. It wouldn't help in creating a tier list at all.
TigerWoods
Smash Champion
Tiers are somewhat greatly decided on the popularity of the character. If you think about it, when you first saw brawl, mk, snake, ddd, wario etc looked really cool(lack of a better word). I swore to myself I was going to play as meta... when i found out the rest of the world was going to main the people i decided too, i wanted to be more unique and use shiek.
Anyway that is relevant because the more players playing that character, the faster the metagame is developed. The more combo's are discovered. The more they learn from each other. Also there is a greater chance to have more jesus players in your character with more ppl. For example a larger school tends to be better in football then the neighboring smaller school.
For example, there are 500 mk's and 250 shieks in a giant tornament. Due to odds(and the law of large numbers, look it up in statistical mathematics) the mk's have a drastic advantage over the shieks.
Anyway that is relevant because the more players playing that character, the faster the metagame is developed. The more combo's are discovered. The more they learn from each other. Also there is a greater chance to have more jesus players in your character with more ppl. For example a larger school tends to be better in football then the neighboring smaller school.
For example, there are 500 mk's and 250 shieks in a giant tornament. Due to odds(and the law of large numbers, look it up in statistical mathematics) the mk's have a drastic advantage over the shieks.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
I made a thread like this. It got closed. Well, congrats guys! I'm probably going to start having Shiek be my third main soon. She's amazing with her ftilt lock and from that, excessive hits will happen. Bottom, Mid and low tier! Awesome.
Bottom, Mid and low tier! Awesome.Newuser12345215
Smash Journeyman
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Here's SLAPAHO tier list. They basically switched some of the top tier characters to bottom, placed some of the bottom to middle, and some of of the high tier characters to low.
Not sure if they backed up their tier list with videos or anything but kudos for them for being different and saying things like Captain Falcon is better than Snake I guess.
Here's a link(just click the topic thread).
almost lol'd when I read it, anyway, that's the "computers copy/learn from players?" topic.
Anyway, a couple of theories:
1. They learn from replays
2. They copy exact button presses.
3. They learn your playstyle somehow(I think this could be possible, I think Tekken 4: DR does it too with ghost data, does it?)
Anyway, I posted this simply because:
1. Need more people to figure this out.
2. So, join in the research.
Not sure if they backed up their tier list with videos or anything but kudos for them for being different and saying things like Captain Falcon is better than Snake I guess.
Well, not exactly true, they aren't morons(of course, players are better and I know they won't help create a tier list). It seems they appear to copy/learn from what a player's playstyle.
Here's a link(just click the topic thread).
almost lol'd when I read it, anyway, that's the "computers copy/learn from players?" topic.
Anyway, a couple of theories:
1. They learn from replays
2. They copy exact button presses.
3. They learn your playstyle somehow(I think this could be possible, I think Tekken 4: DR does it too with ghost data, does it?)
Anyway, I posted this simply because:
1. Need more people to figure this out.
2. So, join in the research.