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Vs Snake.

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
What are some of your personal methods, tactics, techniques and strategies for dealing with Snake? I'm studying the match up currently and would like some informative and fresh advice if anyone is willing to share their knowledge. It is much appreciated.
 

Kamikaze*

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
803
First off, I try to avoid smashville. It's a nice little flat stage with a moving platform in which he can use to make moving C4's

Don't think you can tilt him to death because his tilts have more range then yours.

You can't be super aggressive in this match up nor can you be super campy

If you knock snake off the side of the stage, try to gimp him. Or else he will live to 160% and you will be frustrated.
 

SwastikaPyle

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
811
When you're on the stage, camp like there's no time limit.

When you're off the stage, follow him like there's no tomorrow.


Also, dtilt is pretty much a lifesaver. It seems like the only thing that competes with his tilts most of the time.
 

Vel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
123
Location
Florida, USA
Like others have said - gimping is your best bet and by far the best way to kill him at percents lower than 150%.

Watch out for where he puts his nades/C4 - if he's dumb enough not to cook a nade to toss it near you, just toss it back. I've never had a problem with his RPG (just jump over the thing), but I've learned through hard experience to never let him get under you - his U-tilt outranges your D-air by a good margin.

His horizontal recovery is amazing with that copter of his, so you either need to get him to higher percents (150% is when you should just start entertaining the idea of a horizontal KO) or just get him off the top.
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,953
Location
Tennessee V_V
^

WHAT?!

Thats not how I kill him..

Also, grab more than you would. If he drops a nade, time it so you u-throw to safety.
 

brinboy789

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
2,684
Location
Suffolk, Long Island, NY
well....

"Snake is heavy and very powerful. His F-tilt and Jab combo will send you flying. Always space well; this is especially important in this match-up.

Approach with SH F-airs, Mach tornado, and F-tilts/D-tilts.
-When approaching with F-airs, never get in to close; if he shields, you'll have either a F-tilt or Jab combo waiting for you. You want to hit him with the very tip of your sword; this will make it harder for him to punish you.
-Approaching with Mach Tornado works well against Snake, being the heavy character that he is. However, DO NOT SPAM IT. A good Snake with start noticing patterns and punish you for it. Also, make sure Snake is not holding a grenade; it will make you both explode, but the tornado warning will be called off.
-F-tilts and D-tilts are great for approaching Snake. Space like crazy these moves. Poke at him with these until you see an opening, then capitalize upon it with a grab/dash attack/etc.

Watch out for his mortar slide; it comes out fast. However if you see a mortar slide your way, D-tilt him. This works extremely and will cause him to trip a lot of the time leaving him vulnerable and punishable. F-tilt doesn't trip him, however it also works wells."

-Affinity


"[Against Snake's Mortar Slide,] Shield it if your level with them. After shielding you can grab them. If they end up behind you, d-smash or nair out of shield. Or MT out of shield. You know, just to piss them off. If you're above, then dodge it and get level so you can approach via glide or some other approach method (which you should have ready)."

-Zephyr


"Be wary of Snake's U-tilt, otherwise known as the Boot of Doom. This move has a ridiculous hitbox, amazing power, great priority, and will kill you at 91%... (Seriously...). Don't always try to glide attack out of a glide or shuttle loop; the boot, most of the time, will say NO. Bottom Line: Don't get hit by this move; if you space well, it shouldn't be a huge worry.

Watch out for C4's and Mines; they can kill you at around 82%. Snakes like to plant these on platforms, especially moving ones (Yoshi's Island, Smashville, etc.). These explosives have a huge hitbox and will do a good amount of damage to you, even while you stand below the platforms they're on. Always remember where they are hiding. ALWAYS."

-Affinity


"The mines are different story since they are a double edged sword weapon of Snake.
#1 Whatever you do be particularly careful of not get getting grabbed or knocked back into the mine
#2 Get the opponent into their own mine try grabs but in this case particularly b grab since all the other grabs will make the opponent fly "over" the mine (f grab) or get yourself and your opponent into the mine and you both blow up (d grab and u grab (on another note this type of kamikaze grab is done by sliding grab))


C4s what can I say but not go near them or not let them get onto your MK. If worst comes to worst make contact as soon as you can with your opponent(s) to pass on the C4 to turn it into a frantic game of hot potato. (Yes it is not only remote control activated but also timed)"

-Terranrox


"Against campy Snakes, watch out for grenades laid along the ground. Most of the time these snakes will simply shield-drop their grenade and roll away, while waiting for you to approach. If you see a Snake doing this, DO NOT MACH TORNADO TOWARDS HIM; you will go *kaboom* and only get frustrated. Instead, wait until the grenades blow; then make your approach.

Edgeguarding a Snake can be annoying if he Cyphers up high, but if he does simply wait for him to start coming down. From there you can U-air, bait airdodges > N-air, Tornado if you're confident enough you'll KO with it, or whatever else works best for you.

Here are a few ways to successfully edgeguard Snake if he's not up so high:
- D-air/N-air edgeguard him while hes below the level
-Shuttle Loop him while he's in his Cypher, but be fast about it. When he first uses it, he can't do anything.
-You can shuttle loop him nearly anywhere off the stage and survive. If done correctly, you will always hit the cypher after your Shuttle Loop hits Snake. This prevents you from going into free-fall, allowing you to recover with Drill rush, Mach tornado, etc...
-Grab his Cypher when he tries to recover towards the ledge"

-Affinity


"MK vs. Snake is dangerous. IMO, a perfect MK will always beat a perfect Snake, but that's a silly analogy. Simply put, MK's speed allows him to manuever and punish Snake violently. All setups with MK should have the common goal of attempting to knock him off the stage, no matter what his % is. Once Snake is in the air for whatever reason, don't be an idiot and chase after him like a dog to the neighborhood car. Wait for the airdodge, then attack. If they catch on, assume that they won't air-dodge and punish before they can think twice. It's a rock, paper, scissors game. Oh, and if they f-tilt you and your shield, please dash grab them ty.

A little more about campy Snakes. If you rely on tornado, you're screwed. Campy Snakes will hold on to their grenades (leaving room for the Omnigay), or the majority of the time roll -> grenade drop because it's an anti-tornado defense. Get slightly out of Snake's f-tilt range and be patient. Alot of them will roll into you or sidestep. A MK slightly outside of anyone's range makes them get very anxious to do some kind of evasive manuever. When in doubt, just stick to the air. If you see them full-hopping to n-air, learn what parts of the move you can punish it."

-InfernoOmni


"I know what some of you are thinking, and the answer NO; you will almost NEVER be able to pull of an Omnigay against a good Snake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmRoAz_4CQ . The chances of you pulling this off against a good Snake are slim to none; don't count on it.
(Even if it is really, really cool )"

-Affinity


yyyyyyyyyyyyyyup. pretty much all there is to it lol
 

Vel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
123
Location
Florida, USA
^

WHAT?!

Thats not how I kill him..

Also, grab more than you would. If he drops a nade, time it so you u-throw to safety.
It may just be the Snakes I play, but unless he's at high enough percent and I hit him hard enough to KO immediately/so hard that DI is useless, I can never KO him off the side - he just copters back.

So that leaves gimping or an attempted star KO (now that I think a bit about my matches, I've remembered that star KO almost never works for me); so that leaves gimping

EDIT - just had a match and this happened a few times (I'm not sure if this has been said somewhere else), but when he first pulls out his copter, he's either invincible or has super armor, so (in my experience) I haven't been able to knock him off when he first pulls it out
 

DotHack

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
189
Lately I've been seeing alot of videos where when edgeguarding, MK's will camp the stage once Snake hits 140 or so and just do a grounded shuttle loop. Is this something I should be incorporating into my game? I've had so much trouble with snakes it's just hard to know what to use in each situation. ._.
 

FunkMaster

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 29, 2005
Messages
460
Location
CAT LAND MEOW MEOW MEOW
hmm if you grab snake out of a mortar slide it may be best to F-Throw so the mortar doesn't hit you. since F-Throw is so fast and stuff.

hmm.

there are times when this match-up seems impossible to me because there's grenades everywhere and his F-Tilt is nonsense.

Although it may just be because of player skill more then anything else.

And I keep forgetting about the dash mechanics and stuff.

I would also assume that tornado is just about useless because of grenades. It certainly works that way with me.

maybe my spacing is just bad against Snake.

spacing is apparently is of even more importance in this matchup then in others.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
I am not looking for basic tactics and general information or common knowledge, which is essentially what you are all giving me.

well....

"Snake is heavy and very powerful. His F-tilt and Jab combo will send you flying. Always space well; this is especially important in this match-up.
It's redundant posts like these that really don't provide any use to me. I'm pretty sure I know how heavy and powerful Snake is, as well as the fact that F-tilt and Jab will send me flying (along with any attack in the game with reasonable knock back). And please tell me a match up where spacing isn't important with any character.

I want specific tactics or pieces of information. i.e. "Use Shuttle Loop against Snake once he starts the Cypher to effectively knock him out of SA and gimp him. You'll hit the Cypher as you loop which will prevent you from dying off stage, and you'll be able to recover. Nair works for this too." I'm not ignorant on how Snake works, I just need an extra advantage to the basic knowledge I am already aware of. Advice like "space well" has no place in this thread.
 

Affinity

Smash Hero
Joined
May 27, 2006
Messages
6,876
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Wichita, KS
NNID
Affinity2412
Horizontally Off-Stage

Get Snake off the stage as quickly as possible (D-smash, B-throw, etc). Use a few of your jumps to N-air him father and father off the stage, then try and nail a shuttle loop.

If you see you didn't position yourself correctly for the Shuttle Loop, head back to the level, wait, and punish him when he gets back. Just throw him or hit him with another D-smash to get him off the stage, or grab his cypher from him if you get the chance.


Vertically Off-Stage

If Snake recovers high, harass him with falling-U-airs. Baiting an airdodge to N-air works as great as well. Mix it up with tornado if very up high. If you see you're not positioned correctly, get back to the level and wait to punish him like you would if he was coming back horizontally (D-smash, grab, etc.)


I'll post more later when I have more time.
 

Clouderz

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
696
Location
Canada
grab

all snake does is justg ftilt / utilt out of sheild / sheild nade

just be aggressive offstage
People need to stop making countless pointless snake topics, If you know how to play this game, you know that MK ***** snake, just look at m2k
Affinity DID make a "un-official" thread for matchups ...
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
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Unlimited Blade Works
grab

all snake does is justg ftilt / utilt out of sheild / sheild nade

just be aggressive offstage
People need to stop making countless pointless snake topics, If you know how to play this game, you know that MK ***** snake, just look at m2k
Affinity DID make a "un-official" thread for matchups ...
If I wanted to read common knowledge, I would have referred myself to match up threads, rather than making a topic. I am looking for specific, intricate and elaborate tactics that people first hand feel work well against Snake that wouldn't be in such threads.

And you chose a rather poor example for a player to base your assumptions on. M2K essentially degrades any player at this game regardless of what character they use, even if it happens to be another Meta Knight.
 

Clouderz

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
696
Location
Canada
If I wanted to read common knowledge, I would have referred myself to match up threads, rather than making a topic. I am looking for specific, intricate and elaborate tactics that people first hand feel work well against Snake that wouldn't be in such threads.

And you chose a rather poor example for a player to base your assumptions on. M2K essentially degrades any player at this game regardless of what character they use, even if it happens to be another Meta Knight.

Still, M2k ***** snake all day
Asking for tactics from people on this board, you should just try it yourself for once and learn instead of feeding off other peoples playstyle o_O you wont learn much that way, atleast for me..
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
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Unlimited Blade Works
Still, M2k ***** snake all day
Asking for tactics from people on this board, you should just try it yourself for once and learn instead of feeding off other peoples playstyle o_O you wont learn much that way, atleast for me..
...as well as any other character all day. Or any player for that matter. Your point really is moot.

Feeding off other peoples play styles? What the hell do you think these boards are for? Their purpose is to provide people with a learning tool by discussing, sharing and contributing. Any player can learn, and I too am learning myself. But one will always learn faster and more efficiently with the help of other peoples experience, regardless of what caliber player you happen to be.

I'm not going to bother justifying my reasons for why I made this thread to you Clouderz. I did it for the right intentions, and that is to improve myself. If you do not wish to contribute or make note of something relevant, please don't bother replying.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
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Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
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Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
Use grabs more against Snake. Make sure your plugged into port 4 so you can pull off a possible Omnigay.
Grounded Shuttle Loop works great against a grenade camping Snake because of the invinci frames, so it goes through the nades explosion and hits Snake. Keep in mind that grenades explode every 3 seconds. Snake can't do anything out of Up+B for 1 second, so it's safer to D-air or N-air Snake out of cypher is the Snake is being unpredictable, keep on edge guarding from there, Snake will be forced to Up+B usually after N-air of D-air connects, expect that and use Shuttle Loop.
Also don't be afraid to keep on attacking Snake all the way to the blastzone and using up all your jumps, MK has a good enough recovery to make it back with Drill Rush. Beware of Snake's F-air when he is trying to make it back on stage. Snake will not use F-air is he is low on the screen, otherwise he might not make it back on stage.
If you get caught in a jab ftilt combo, and you have your shield up, up+B out of shield. Use Tornado only when Snake is in lag from a move to force Snake up in the air, if Snake is not stunned he will grenade all over the place. Basically, grounded shuttle loop, grabs, and down smashes will help alot in this match up.

I hate Snake, so I basically been trying to find many ways around him since day 1. Now he isn't as hard. Unless its a Snake with no soul (A Snake player who practices all day and has no life.)
 

Dojo

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,978
Location
Time Chamber, Texas
After playing with Ally at CoT4, I've realized Snake's not as bad as you'd think. He's still tough, but not all that bad. I still have some things I need to learn as well. >.>

Calibur actually pointed out some things that work well.
-Grounded shuttle loops work wonders against grenade campers.
-Don't be afraid to chase them far off the edge to get your kill.
-Grabs help alot.

Also
-Try baiting them into ftilts. If you space yourself correctly with a fair or dair just out of reach, you can bait them into ftilting and you can tornado directly into them. Try experimenting with this. Tornado can be an amazing asset in this matchup if you use it correctly.
-Remember that dair will knock them out of cypher if it's completely fresh. Use this to your advantage while edgeguarding.
-Try to learn their edgeguard/attack patterns when coming from the air. Keeping them in the air is vital in this match. Try to read airdodges then jump into a Nair/Uair as they're falling. Be careful with this though, Snakes will start falling with Nairs/Bairs. Uair will handle it. You can rack up tons of damage keeping them up in the air.
-Nair offstage is your very best friend. <3
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
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Location
Unlimited Blade Works
Thank you Dojo. I wasn't aware Dair fresh also worked on Cypher'd Snake. Caliburs advice was helpful to, I wasn't aware Shuttle Loop would keep you safe despite the explosions. That would actually be very useful considering the explosion would damage Snake as well.

Does anyone have any good stage recommendations, such as counter picks? What stage should I go for out of the five neutrals? I would prefer recommendations other than Rainbow Cruise or Luigis Mansion, as Luigis Mansion is banned in most tournaments, and Snakes always strike off Rainbow Cruise from a match.
 

laki

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
154
By fresh dair, do you literally mean just fresh, or the 105% power dair you get at the beginning of your stock?
 

Vel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
123
Location
Florida, USA
I second Delfino - it's easy to just fly under the stage when it's flying and SL the guy on the platform

If you can't KO them when it's flying, just keep them in the water (via d-airs) long enough to drown - I don't think any character can attack when they're swimming, so you shouldn't have to worry about any u-air/u-tilts; they'll be more pre-occupied with getting out of the water than with attacking (if they even can), so you've got plenty working for you
 

Affinity

Smash Hero
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May 27, 2006
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Wichita, KS
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Affinity2412
The Snake Match-up Thread said:
Bans:

* Battlefield : Meta Knight can really destroy a Snake on this stage. MK is capable of doing combos that can take away a full stock from Snake. Avoid this stage at all costs.
This is what I'm going off of, along with personal experience.

The platforms allow MK to combo Snake like crazy. They also keep MK from getting hit by mortars the majority of the time.
 

FunkMaster

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 29, 2005
Messages
460
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CAT LAND MEOW MEOW MEOW
if you happen to grab Snake near the edge might it be best to just go for a grab release?

I realize it's nothing like grab releases with Marth/Wario or Yoshi/Metaknight but I'd think it could put Snake in a worse position then by just D-Throwing him.

Maybe? Or not?

-edit -

I recommend those interested in the match up to watch Ally vs. M2K. (Snake vs. Metaknight.)

It may help, seeing as it's two of those best players of their respective characters going at it.
It certainly showed me stuff.
 

Super Perfect Cell

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2009
Messages
19
Grab alot. Pressure him with aerials but space yourself so you don't get hit by the explosion of the nades. Dair, nair, dtilt, and shuttle loop to get him off stage.
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,953
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Tennessee V_V
DZhou is right.. it knocks him out of it and you are safe wherever!

Really, while it is said at least 100 times when this matchup is mentioned, it is great everywhere.

Also, jump at him, and FF u-airs at his feet. He will get hit and juggled back up, and if he airdodges you can jump -> nair or just u-air again.


Try and see if your snake likes to aerial or airdodge into the ground, and punish that.

Don't be afraid to dodge grenades for 2 minutes while the timer runs out >=]
 
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