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[VIC] Melbourne CouchWarriors 2011 - AGM News

Would you like to see a cash prize pool? (Public vote)


  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
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Suntan Luigi

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it is based upon who is best, but it HUGELY favors people for turning up more often than actually being good
Obviously those who turn up more will be higher. If you don't turn up to a tournament how do you expect to win? You can't just be #1 and then never show up again. You have to show up consistently to keep your place in line.

Edit: Omg let's talk about something else other than points.
@Atticus: I think there is a flaw with your GS2. I seem to be stuck at one point and I read the guide but the character just doesn't seem to be able to pass a certain point aka dead end. It's not a maze or anything either.
 

Dekar289

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just as a side note, single elim singles is a bit extreme, k, if by some chance everyone ****ing loves this idea, then at the absolute most make doubles single elim k? thx
 

_X_

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just as a side note, single elim singles is a bit extreme, k, if by some chance everyone ****ing loves this idea, then at the absolute most make doubles single elim k? thx
No single elimination at all, ever. Single Elim give a too large margin for luck and is therefor fail.

X says there should be a doubles Ranking system, how hard would it be, really?

To the ladder idea Shaz... I'm a little both ways at this point (inb4 bisexual). Why not, since you're running it, just do it this month anyway and see how it goes, if it fails too hard scrap it and think of another idea. Also challenges should be either after singles, between doubles, or at the very end (IMO).

How about another pole like Cao did with the Melee thing.
 

Dekar289

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nah just rank individually
with points for individuals, not teams

also x

poll
poll
not pole
lol pole
LOL PATROL
 

CAOTIC

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challenge thing is dumb to implement midway through the season, just beat everyone in the tourney if you want to challenge the best, or place inside top 10 if you want some points

rankings are there to seed for the 'boss stage' of 2008 so it's going to have to stay ~ perhaps you can find ways to weave your ideas into the boss stage for a bit of flair and flavour

Shameless plug! :)
http://www.allisbrawl.com/news/newspost.aspx?id=123
 

Cronos_Rainbow

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Keep in mind:
A) It is theoretically impossible to drag anyone down beyond a certain point as players may only challenge those above them.
B_ If the 'top player' is really the better player they should welcome the chance to prove it rather than shy away from it. The point of the implementation is to improve everyone...not to boohoo about who played X-well on Y day. Singular events along the lines of Rambo do this and reward it heavily. If it's rankings we want this is a better way.
C) As with the Random Stage selection the key to a good system is starting loosely and refining from there. If we set everything in stone immediately then all is for naught.

Okay now as for working up not dragging down.
This would be unfair, as if Challenger A at position 18 beats Defender X at position 3, those between 18 and 3 unfairly discredited if Challenger A gains points. This system will not work.

No single elimination at all, ever. Single Elim give a too large margin for luck and is therefor fail.

X says there should be a doubles Ranking system, how hard would it be, really?
Ideally both of these things would be great to go by...but really time is our greatest enemy...and starting at 2:30pm doesn't exactly leave much room for error even as things are. Depending on how we go for time (which depends on everyone) we will see how things go. Keep in mind however that the scene is ever expanding and so time will be of greater concern as things progress.

As for luck, it is a factor for sure, but preparation for things that may been 'unfortunate' for you the player will ultimately lead to your having less to possibly knock you out come the majors.

Challenge matches would be held at the end of the singles and doubles events. Consider them a reward for everything running smoothly.

like if 10th challenges first and wins, 10th gets 5 pts, but if 1st wins, 1st gets 1 point

OR, in addition to only being able to make 1 challenge per monthly, if somebody who is challenged wins by like 3 stock, they are safe from further challenges, or something along these lines
It would be unfair on positions 9 through 2 to further award first for beating someone vastly beneath them.

As for the immunity to further challenges...this once again will be unfiar on those upcoming players who wish to challenge the same person. For example, if last position got ***** by first...which is pretty likely, all between that will not be able to stand a chance to move up in the rankings. For example 2nd may be able to elevate themselves to equal 1st if they remove one point from top player....if however this top player is immune, this will never happen, and 2nd position will be unable to make a challenge. Furthermore this snowballs until very few can challenge at all.

last vs 1st. immunity.
2nd last vs 2nd. immunity.
etc. until many players have noone above them who is viable for challenge.


As for this:

challenge thing is dumb to implement midway through the season, just beat everyone in the tourney if you want to challenge the best, or place inside top 10 if you want some points
Were someone to join the scene now or recently....as many have done and are doing, even if they were to place first for the remainder of the year, and Cobalt were to be forced down to second...the great advantage in point margin he has will see him win against this newcomer at the conclusion of the year regardless.

This is a very important factor!

I know people aren't welcoming the idea greatly...but believe me I have not arrived at such a decision lightly.
The idea here is that the newcomers will feel as if despite their late start they too are in the running, and can also feel as if there is purpose to attending from this point on.
Growth is key here, not discouraging newcomers because they feel they have no hope for progression.

Like I stated in an earlier post, to avoid someone being picked on there is a likely needed future implementation of a rule to stop anyone challenging above 6 places over their current standing.

This means that you have to master the game and that's just wasting someone's time. It's a game but by having to learn all its tactics and strategies you're ruining it. Who's going to go play each stage and each character just to learn every single one of their weaknesses?
This is of course your decision. I wont be forcing anyone to do anything with their spare time, which character/s to play or use (other than Dedede rule application) or stages to play on. All I will do is remove a point (or three) from someones total score if they lose to a player beneath them under challenge circumstances. Stages are random, and you still have the opportunity to pick whichever character you like for the match. Blinds are also welcome, so you will be absolutely free to take the challenge in any way you see fit within those boundaries.


Now is the best time to play around with new rules as it will mean we can iron out any faults before the onset of next year - and enjoy a smooth and fair rule set for everyone without discrepancies.

IN CONCLUSION

-SINGLE ELIMINATION isn't confirmed just yet. In the event we do switch to single elim. I leave it to you guys to show we can finish it with enough time to manage a comfortable double elim. I myself dislike single elimination as much as the next guy, but I have to do what the rest of you have the luxury of avoiding...look at this from an organisers point of view.
-KO covered meal-time question. If you wish to leave during tourney do it at your own risk of disqualification. It's not impossible, just needs a little timing on your part :)
-I have confidence in the challenge system. If changes need to be made...which in all likelihood they will - they will be done once further information is considered and we get some data.
-Point deduction is the only way to achieve a fair result. Addition of points is unfair on players who will be affected but have no input on the outcome.
-Anyone who would like to see the 6 position rule implemented immediately please make a post to say so and I will by popular demand do so now rather than later, with an option of expanding on this rather than shaving it down.
 

Jei Jei

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longest. post. ever.

I cbf inputting my opinion on the matter, I just know there's alot of people beneath me on the rankings that can beat me most, if not all of the time. Scary for me.

Shaz talks (types?) too much.
 

Cronos_Rainbow

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Yup doing so bothers me ><...but I hope now I've covered everyones concerns. Nothing worse than a leader who ignores everyone ^^. Second worst is one that babbles on however, so all regarding challenge is in my last two posts. Seek answers there if you need them :)
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
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Important non-Monthly related stuffs:

1. SKI TRIP! I'll call everyone soon to confirm driving/car and accomodation arrangements! I have a new number Ill be all calling you with so use that! 100% Confirmation list: CAOTIC, Nancy, Fork, Jontz, Devil, Ammeren, Blazey, Blazey's sister, Syrick, Sam
CARS: 1 x Devil, 1 x Nancy, 1 x the Blazey family (need to sort out chains and food too)
Basic plan: Meet at my address at 6AM (besides the Sydneysiders, we'll pick them up on the way) - My address is 4 George Street, East Melbourne 3002)

2. COUCH WARRIORS DINNER MEETING
Next Tuesday night at the Curtin! Get smashed for real and have some dinner with the CW committee fellas - they make our events happen as much as I/we do, so why not expand your network and get to know them better? 7pm Tuesday, John Curtin Hotel - btw this should be a smash'dfest <- note i purposely spelled it this way - NOT A SMASHFEST

3. Taste of Melbourne (Festival)
Love gourmet food = go to this next Thursday night, let me know if you want in
Will also go to the best cocktail bar in the world cus apparently it's good - 1809
 

Suntan Luigi

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If the way you put it is true, then why don't all tournaments, not only games, apply your idea? In the Beijing Olympics, I don't think they are taking away gold medals just because that person was better than the person in last place. China has a very high lead in Gold Medals at the moment so should we strip them of what they earned? Sorry this had to turn into a debate and hopefully a solution can be found prompto.

The challenge idea was a smart idea but how it works isn't. Those who are new will know that they won't place very high this year AT ALL since they are newbies. They will learn tactics and strategies from us and build up from there. If they expect to reach top ranks within a matter of a couple of months, then there is no point of attending these tournaments every month resulting in less people coming.

Last year when I first attended a monthly I didn't expect to come in top 5 and that's exactly what happened. I was new to the tournament scene and no matter how many ATs I knew I couldn't possibly beat the top players. What I did do was watch them play and play friendlies with them. I had a lot of fun even though I was getting 4-stocked because I was learning to get better.
 

Jei Jei

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I agree, challenge idea is a good one but not how it works.
There's only 5 tourneys left we should keep it the way it's been all year. Except faster of course.
We didn't do the challenge idea during the whole Melee era, is Brawl that boring that we must come up with ideas like this one? Oh well I said before I didn't want to input my views on the matter and here I am.

Jei shuts up now.
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
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Shaz is a man of creativity. His ideas aren't generated due to the game itself being bad, rather, the burst of energy that has come with his new position.

Anyway, I don't really foresee much benefit from the challenge system, because people who don't return to the monthlies aren't competitive anyway ~ no need to throw the scrubs a bone. However, it is good in reorganising those who already have points, but to me it seems the costs (single elimination, instability) outweigh the benefits (greater equality and representation).

Cobalt - Atlus said he's coming this month, so I'm afraid I'll have to team with him like I previously promised. It would have been fun to team with you though
 

Suntan Luigi

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Well it's good to hear that Atlus is coming since he can FINALLY pay me back. Bad to hear that you're not teaming with me but promises need to be kept.

Bryan are you out there? Team with me plz.:)

Edit: Someone bring Melee. I haven't played in ages.
 

Cronos_Rainbow

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The Olympics are a one time event like Rambo. Olympic selection however is more of a similar system to the RanBats.

The Melee/system is antique and inaccurate for the purpose it sets out to achieve, giving accurate rankings of skill level at the game Smash Bros. Brawl. This system will quickly give a good indication of skill level and meet the target aim, while rewarding players greatly for their efforts throughout the year and at each monthly event.

If you can't hold your own against the majority of people beneath you it goes to show you don't belong in your current position in the standings.

Look at it mathematically and not defensively on a personal level.

High player A gains 10 points by brackets - loses to low player. Total earning for the period = 7 points.
High player B gains 8 points by brackets - loses to close player. Total earning for the period = 7 points.

Winning is still very important, as are the accumulated points you gain throughout the year. Keep in mind everyone will be subjected to these challenge matches and so all but the lowest ranked players stand to lose sets of 3 points for loses.


Dekar aside no-one has offered any alternatives just sat back and complained. I assure you I've thought over it carefully, and as far as I can see is no more accurate, simple and easy way to do this.

PS: Sorry I wont be staying the duration of this monthly. I'll be heading to a wedding at around 5ish. KO will see out the rest of the tournament in my absence, and will be helping me for a few months at least till I can settle totally into the position (thanks Woxy cuute xD)
 

Suntan Luigi

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Fine if you want a suggestion...


A=higher player
B=lower player

If B challenges A and wins, B gains __ point(s) and A doesn't lose anything.

How to determine the points:
It depends on how far away you are from that player. If you're only:
Up to 3 places away, you get 1 point for winning.
Up to 6 places away, you get 2 points for winning.
etc

The maximum amount of points you can get from a monthly is ten anyways. Now you can get up to 14 or 15 points which is a 40% or 50% increase.

# of challenges per month is 1. This way people will have to think carefully on who they want to verse and whether or not it will benefit them.

Stages: Neutral only
All other tournament rules apply.

There's no point of lowering someone else's points since it won't help you in raising your own.

Also like a few others said it's sort of late to apply a new system but you're the one in charge so it's up to you.
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
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*fail* those are friendly stages - there's nothing neutral about them.

I need to fill you in on my Mr. Burns' multiple-disease-survival theory <3
 

Shaya

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Let me help you guys understand what neutral is with brawl:

Is the stage neutral in the eyes of a Smash Veteran who loved the Melee?
Yes (1) No (1)

Yes (1):
Is any of the opponents MetaKnight?
Yes(2) No(2)

No (1):

If this is the case, then would it be more neutral for a non-metaknight player if they were against a metaknight?
Yes (3) No(3)

Yes(2): No (3)
It is not neutral.

No(2):
It is potentially neutral.

Yes(3)
Is is neutral.
 

Jei Jei

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I think the person who challenges another should have something to lose for being the actual challengER that way they would be a bit more hesitant to challenge someone above them. If they really have nothing to lose then I can just see most people going 'challenge-crazy'(TM). If that becomes the case we will probably find there are way too many matches played and time will become short again.

What I'm trying to get at is it would be cool if challenging was a bit like gambling, if you know what I mean. Where if the challenger was to lose, then it's their own fault for challenging someone better than them and they lose something because of it, be it a point or whatever but if they win then they receive something a whole lot better.

I don't know I'm just spitballing now. I just think it's unfair for a person to be challenged, then if they win they get nothing for their troubles where as the challenger reaps benefits for being a little prick by trying to bump my...err the challengees points down. Alot of enemies could be made this way lol.

This challenge mode could mistakenly be seen as a sort of survival mode. Word up.
 

Suntan Luigi

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How are those not neutral stages? They are all flat and have a couple of platforms. They are friendly stages so that makes them neutral. Oh wait what am I saying I'm confusing myself. *need sleep*

Jei's right. Shaz, you're the one who said time is our enemy but this challenge thing will make the monthly last forever and let's not forget that the day after people have work/school/uni.
 

Jei Jei

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Jei's right. Shaz, you're the one who said time is our enemy but this challenge thing will make the monthly last forever and let's not forget that the day after people have work/school/uni.
Ah good at least someone could find one point I made in my ramblings.


Cao dammit what's your new mobile number? I tried to call you to meet up for lunch but all I received was that freakin' "ding-dong" crap.
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
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Cobalt - a singluar event doesn't prove anything. A series of events increases your chances of proving something. Anyway, should you verse Ammeren this weekend, good luck. it'll be a great match to watch.

Ready for another jugular (lol Shaya) by Caotique? Try and read it, it's pretty significant. Here goes:

How are those not neutral stages? They are all flat and have a couple of platforms. They are friendly stages so that makes them neutral. Oh wait what am I saying I'm confusing myself. *need sleep*
It's not just Metaknight, it's also the other characters high-ranked players use for kills - Falco, Snake and Ice Climbers (popular character choices for Cobalt) rely on flat open stages primarily for their kills. Many of the gay stages that feature obstructions actually lowers their chances to exploit the tactics that make them by far and away, the best characters in the game. In all honesty, the best and fairest way to judge a player's true skill is to broaden the base of playable stages.
For every stage that is claimed to be more fair than another, there is always a valid counter-argument as to why it's in fact, broken. Thus, I shall introduce my Mr. Burns' multiple-disease-survival theory:
- Mr. Burns has 1000 diseases that try to pass through the door – if 1 gets through, he’s dead. But Mr Burns is still alive because all of the bugs that are trying to squeeze in the door – they are blocking every other bug from passing through that door as they fight to pass through, keeping him alive. (watch the ep. if this makes no sense)
Let’s just say I’m glad it’s a theory, lol. But there is a lot of truth to this statement that shares a context with Brawl.
Simple diseases include:
- D3 chain on walk offs
- Falco downthrow chain on many characters into spike in starter stages
- IC grab anything into death on many characters on any stage with stability
- Marth dtilt jab infinite on many characters in anything with walls
- MK’s ability to win a match on any stage with a uninterrupted ledge (ie. Friendly stage) by indirectly stalling on it (this cannot be regulated if smartly exploited unless MK or stages ledges are banned)

Brawl is not a refined game. It is unfair and biased to the upper echelons of characters that are featured in this game. In Melee, the same could be said, except that the extra dimensions of depth allowed skilled players to do very well with virtually any character. The ‘neutral 6’ stages of old was a bit more valid in theory, since it was highly agreeable and comfortable for players demonstrate their skills in l-cancelling, wavedashing, comboing, shuffling, and the physics behind complete control, required stages of stability. Brawl, on the other hand, is a very different ballgame. It is rare to see lower tiered characters to ever perform against higher tiered characters because their options have now become 1 or 2 dimensional (instead of 3 dimensional in Melee). Additionally, you don’t need a big, open stage to perform any prementioned complexities, so the role of a friendly stage needs to be downplayed in Brawl. As a tournament director, I feel as if I have been forced to explore other options if I ever hoped to keep Brawl as a sustainable competitive movement into the future.

It is my belief that people have tried to emulate the same winning framework from Melee for Brawl - the crossover of similar rulesets have proven to generate very undesirable outcomes for the new game. Evidence of this can be seen in tournament results worldwide, but particularly in North America where their rules have dangerous global influence.

As a tournament director that has decided to take on some risk at the expense of reputation and credibility within Australia, I had decided to gamble on a ruleset, in order to provide empirical evidence that my theory has some truth behind it. After all, discussions that had preceded this post were purely speculative and the Melbourne Ranbats were a perfect opportunity to test my hypothesis (that being the Burns theory).

If you wanted to analyse the results (after running with it for 5-6 months) you can probably take the following out of it:
1. Good characters can still win – this is a natural fact that cannot be fully changed. However, looking at the Ranbat rankings, there is arguably a more equitable spread of characters (in comparison to other regions) that are placing high through the 6 month run of the 2008 Ranbats.
2. There has been a low movement of players using the best characters to win. I would argue that the diversified ruleset has provided some headway into this and helps people stay loyal to their characters throughout their competitive adventures. I have seen this first hand with tactical decisions made by players to utilise stage advantages to defeat typically unassailable matchups on traditional stages.
3. There is no consistent winner in Melbourne. This speaks for itself. Had we have used a more stringent ruleset, it would be guaranteed that tournament results would be far more one-sided. I argue that the closesness between results and the skill level of players is an accurate representation of where people really stand.
4. Player retainment has been extremely high. There is no evidence to suggest that the use of gay stages has lowered the enjoyment or attendance of regulars. In fact, I'd argue that additional stages has kept things more interesting for most people.
5. People are understading. To those who have properly discussed with me the reasons behind such a left-of-center ruleset, have understood one main point – there IS a place for unconventional stages in a modern competitive ruleset. To challenge conventional thinking is probably the hardest thing to achieve in Smash.

So there you have it – if anyone had wondered why things are the way they are down here, this is it. Some people will not like this design because it's inherently unfriendly and possibly even seen as a lowering of one's standard and expectation of Smash, but they can appreciate what the ruleset sets out to acheive.
 

Jei Jei

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and after that impressively long, well-written post Cao, you didn't answer my question: What's your new number? =P

edit: I think subconciously I'm just trying to get my post count up with these pointless posts
 

CAOTIC

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CAOTIC - 0466.352.145
Anyone who calls me on my old number will be forever bing-bonged
 

Cronos_Rainbow

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Cobalt. It's about position not points. Lowering the points of the higher players will close the gap for you to overtake them if you consistently play well enough. Giving points for winning as I've already stated is unfair on everyone who isn't a part of the particular challenge match.

Time is our enemy....and for that reason if you had read any of my obscenely long posts carefully you'd realise:
A: Challenges are to be held in spare time at the end of event starting from the bottom of the ladder up.
B: Every other change I've made aside from the naming of televisions being a winnable right will help to reduce the time of the events overall.

All your posts are really starting to sound a lot like your aim is to remain in your position without need to defend it moreso than a want to contribute to a well working system.

As for Jei's concerns and his (TM)'d 'Challenge-Crazy', keep in mind it is a one challenge per player per month system, starting from the lowest ranking players working its way up. Challenging is like gambling - the higher you challenge the greater the reward. Improve your chances by one point rather easily, or risk wasting your challenge on someone you're statistically unable to beat in order to bring them 3 points closer to you. The system encourages a 'the bigger they are the harder they fall' system rather than 'the rich get richer and the poor get poorer'.

I'm starting to think some of you guys just read the first two sentences and hit the post reply button in a furious rage. I've covered the points you're concerned about several times...most of them in the introductory post, and if not in the follow on. Take a long hard read of all that fine print before you poo-poo the system please so we can avoid lengthy posting rallies like this in the future.

As for KOs recent post - it's exactly the Cats and I supported so many stages early on in ruleset development. Not to sound like I'm picking on you Cobalt but your arguments almost sound like "Well at least make it on stages I know I can win easily on."
 

Suntan Luigi

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Like I said before I don't care where I'm positioned on the rankings. I did contribute. I offered a suggestion. Did you read that and what did you think of it(previous page or page before that one)?

I didn't pick stages that I'm good on. Just the ones that people (I assumed) enjoyed playing on. Battlefield is one of my worst stages.

Well as long as everyone is happy with it then I'm fine. I guess it'll make the monthlies more exciting. Hope to see you all this Sunday!
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
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Fo shizzle!

All credit into Melbourne's ruleset goes to Shaz and Cats - they passed it on to me ~ I'm merely the bandwagon that has a 6 month delay on anything Shaz thinks =P
 
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