[VIC] BAM6 announced, May 9-11 2014! Congrats to Dekar, SD and Shaya!

[Splice]

I think anyone who thinks not banding together with the FGC is a good thing is horribly misguided. Our scene is incredibly lazy in most ways; we've organized one tourney for ourselves in the last 8 months. And people think we can support ourselves? Not unless individuals start stepping up. srs

I don't think anyone disagrees with you here. It's just that banding together with the FGC doesn't come in the form of changing our ruleset/gameplay.
Attila, is Tibs coming? Are you teaming with him?

 

[Luco]

Ok well we'll be using 1 stock Brawl format for this event though.

You failed to address anything that really makes the 1 stock format an issue. The fact that we only use certain stages already damages several characters. As long as a decent pool of characters are able to compete the game can function, and anything that's a detriment to top tiers isn't really that bad. Specific rules for MK are subjective and far more messy than using 1 stock, yet you don't have a problem with those?
The increased matches played in the set allows the 1 stock format to be a little less punishing on making big mistakes and also means more different stages played which is a good thing. Sets will still take much less time, especially if one player wins all the games, then it's way faster than winning multiple 3 stock matches. It's not a weird compensation at all, it's a logical move.
Your analogies are bull**** also

I really don't feel like opening the MK can of worms, it's just easier to leave that whole thing out when i'm discussing this.

Anyway, it's late and i'm tired but i'll respond to the rest of your post tomorrow when i've mulled it over a little more.

 

[Jamwa]

Hey guys will there be time for sanicball? The scene's really building up in the FGC and I think if one of us TO it we will get some better reputations.

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

I bet they will respek my 420 sanicball no scope sweg
#rekt

EDIT:
I think we should ban super sanic though because he is imba and the FGC hates him

 

[Splice]

Honestly this would be a great step forward, especially with Brawl on the downfall.
To fill in the gaps left by the 8 minute camp fests of yesteryear, Sanicball could join our regular scene along with Smash 4.

It's unlikely that it could run at BAM, for sure, but I definitely think some of the time on the exhibition stream should be spent playing Sanicball to hit the ground running when
we add Sanicball to our tournament roster for the rest of the season, and get hype for a big showing at Shadowloo Showdown.

+Australia has a really good showing for this game which would be good for our rep in the FGC

 

[Jamwa]

For those who really wanna get behind this idea, here's a tech skill video showing the competitive prowess of sanicball and it's promise to become an FGC staple.

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

Honestly this would be a great step forward, especially with Brawl on the downfall.
To fill in the gaps left by the 8 minute camp fests of yesteryear, Sanicball could join our regular scene along with Smash 4.

It's unlikely that it could run at BAM, for sure, but I definitely think some of the time on the exhibition stream should be spent playing Sanicball to hit the ground running when
we add Sanicball to our tournament roster for the rest of the season, and get hype for a big showing at Shadowloo Showdown.

+Australia has a really good showing for this game which would be good for our rep in the FGC

I've already started work on a poster we could use to advertise for SS

 

[Attila_]

Yeah, tibor is coming, and will be my brawl team partner.

 

[Jei Jei]

I guess idgaf about brawl singles enough to continue arguing the 1 stock thing lol. I play for doubles anyway.

@interstaters: I made a post about my ability to house people which went completely ignored. Too bad you missed it. I can't be bothered making arrangements now.

What is sanicball? I'm 100% committed to making this game my main focus.

 

[Shaya]

3. ZSS is only buffed if you're bad with items. Or an MK main. In which case, stfu anyway.

Really bro? Really? ZSS only buffed if you're bad with items? ;\
Really?

 

[dean.]

yosh got this tournament in da bag.

 

[S.D]

Shaya you prob already made your opinion known but what do you think of this one stock biz?

Have you trialled it in NSW?

 

[Shaya]

I like that people are willing to try new formats/etc. I personally think people's issues with brawl are perception of gameplay, so I don't really see changing the game to 1 stock achieving that. There haven't been any events for it yet in NSW, but may try it at the next event to see how people like it.

But to exemplify the whole perception thing, changing the game to 1 stock isn't going to change people disliking the game because of MK cheesing them with unsafe options like double dsmash [e.g] due to a majority not knowing how to be technically proficient with basic punishment options.

 

[SurPr15e]

yosh got this tournament in da bag.

Are Yosh and Sato coming this year?

 

[Jamwa]

Tbh, changing it to one stock does make it faster and I guess a lot easier to adapt to.
The way I view Brawl is a game of consistent reads, and I guess without combos, it's not 'fun' for others because you're not rewarded highly for getting in on your opponent.
I guess it's going to be similar, but in a 1 stock format, the stage will be changing so often and the game will reset so often that I don't think there will be the chance to show the extent to which you can adapt (like coming back from 3 stocks to 1).
I know some people play a lot better on their last stock just because of psychological reasons (@Sebby )
So that being said, 1 stock format kind of takes away from what Brawl differ from the other smash games; how dynamic it is (kind of character dependent).
I'm just going to miss being 2 stocks ahead and having the leisure to style on people, but that's just me.
If your character isn't Lucas you don't have the option to style anyway.

 

[dean.]

if yer character's Lucas you don't have the option of being two stocks ahead either.

@ SurPr15e sorry, don't know. @YoshiAustralia are you coming?

 

[Splice]

1 Stock sits well with me because 3 Stock seems mostly superfluous. I don't know about this whole perception thing, but it's a good thing if it's not really changing gameplay too much.
1 Stock format feels much better for mid tiers/low tiers, since you only have to pull off consistent jank **** for one stock.
I think 1 stock lets you adapt better to your opponent, going from one game to the next with fresh stock, then a 3 stock match where you will still be behind. I feel very strongly about that from my experience too.
To me it would appear very little dynamic is lost, but you need to have a much better mindset/readiness from the start of the match.
Some nice things have been lost with the departure of playing from behind, however in itself it is generally uninteresting to watch this.

At this point BAM is definitely a 1 stock Brawl tournament, and whether this should be the case forever is a discussion for a different place. Confirming numbers/partners/exhibitions/details and trash talking other players is more important at this point.

Brawl Crew battle looks like it could happen with ACT packing heat. I think it could be close, 4v4 yeah?
Apollo + Tinman + 2 more AGAINST Attila, Tibs, Me/Steve, Seb?

 

[Luco]

I don't really plan on changing BAM and i'm willing to try it and even have my viewpoint changed, the reason i'm mainly so opposed is we're beginning to play around with certain characters which is a bit of a slippery slope and I honestly don't know where our middle ground would be in that case (you get the idea, judging what affects certain characters some way and bringing more salt into the wound than there already is). Afaik the idea of the unity ruleset was to try and even it out for the vast majority of players and characters and for me at least, I found it not that uncommon to watch some really nice upsets with a bunch of characters. Coming from a low tier perspective, at first glance this would appear to make the game more volatile which allows for anything to happen but I don't know if I like that in the end, as I like to be able to learn what my opponent is doing and having that happen over several one stock matches generally feels more disruptive to my mindset than the one match where i'm down a stock.

But the thing for me is, what this change most seems to indicate to me is an extremifying of MU values. Even MUs are still relatively simple because our MU system for most characters is done on a stock by stock basis - but the more skewed the MU, the more ridiculous that advantage is allowed to push itself (or disadvantage if you're the character underfoot) - case in point coming from a PK kid main, the chain grab infinite from characters such as Marth and DK. What I really fear is that the greater ability to CP won't mitigate the potential pit many LT mains are being thrown into here because even on stages like PS1 and Delfino, if that character gets the grab early enough on, that's a game i've just lost. Even if they don't, even if they get it halfway through, that's 50% gone that I have to make up. This means that players severely less skilled than their opponents can win by abusing particular traits whilst the other hasn't enough time or room for mistakes to respond or adapt.

To note on the MK deal, the reason those rules were placed were specifically to deal with him. These rules would inadvertedly affect the game in a way I feel is negative in an effort to save time. Put simply, if MK weren't as god tier as he is, I would hate the idea of the rules that bind him being in place. The rest of the cast doesn't really have that issue though, so with the exception of wanting characters buffed rather than nerfed (a tactic they're employing in smash 4), I prefer the rest of the cast the way they are.

Shaya brings up a good point and yes I will be willing to trial it. If it ends up working out the way I predict then I think we should re-evaluate it. The most notable shove in that direction, I believe, would be discussing the legality of CGs and infinites under such a ruleset... but maybe you're right and we won't need to have that discussion.

EDIT: @ Attila_ : Once upon a time, I tried to step up in the NSW community and asked what people would think if I ran a tournament. Iirc the answer I got was "Nobody would come.... for various reasons."

No-one can say I didn't try.

But although I worded it badly, I do agree with Splice in that while joining the FGC community would be nice, if it clashes with how we do things then I don't think it's worth it. The same mentality that Dekar used for melee could be applied to Brawl (even if Brawl does die ).

EDIT2: If crews are happening on the Friday night with little else happening, I think we could easily afford to make it a bit bigger than just 4v4. I mean... well, uhm... you know... i'd kinda like to be in the OoS again this year ahahah

 

[Splice]

If crews are happening on the Friday night with little else happening, I think we could easily afford to make it a bit bigger than just 4v4. I mean... well, uhm... you know... i'd kinda like to be in the OoS again this year ahahah

There's no point making the crew battle bigger with more players if it's going to make it less hype. I'm sure ACT and whoevers coming from NSW and QLD can pull an extra 2 people to play with Tinman and Apollo that would meet the standard.
If we go to like 8 players then it's likely to become more lopsided towards VIC (since we have more high level players in attendance, although I can't speak for the ACT crew)

With ACT having a reasonably strong showing, we could probably get away with some VIC vs ACT related activities, at least in Brawl.

 

[Tin Man]

Apollo confirmed with me at our last tournament that he is coming. I'll double check with him.

I think it may be to quick to make this tournament a 1 stock tournament given the lack there of notice and how close the tournament is :/. Having time to prepare would have beene.

And housing anyone? Need housing for 3!

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

Since Billy likes alternate rulesets
I like BSR better than DSR because not being able to cp to the stage you struck to if you win the first game is really dumb

 

[Splice]

Yeah Bones ruleset overall is really cool, but since everyone is fine with the Melee ruleset and would rather just get better it's not worth discussing.
I like not being able to ban the same stage twice more than having no bans in a best of 5, but I haven't thought it over properly yet so it's w/e

 

[Jei Jei]

Just a thought, how is brawl pools going to run? 1 stock bo5 or...

 

[Baron Omega]

Just a thought, how is brawl pools going to run? 1 stock bo5 or...

yes that is how it is goin to work

 

[Hobs_]

BAM6 is gonna be my first Smash tournament. Haven't played Melee in probably ten years until a few weeks ago (after I watched the Smash Brothers documentary).

I'm expecting to be knocked out immediately but hopefully it's fun!

 

[Attila_]

5 things:

1. One stock makes matchups closer to even
Purely on the basis that you don't have to play amazing for a really long time to win. In Ness/Lucas terms, any 0 to death should result in their lose of the match. In a stand bo3, that means they only have one more chance. But in a 1 stock bo5, they completely reset the situation after the first loss, giving them another 4 chances. That makes things much, much more doable. Better players/characters definitely build an advantage the longer the game/set continues for.

2. Brawl pools will run standard bo5 sets. I will be writing these up in the next few days.

3. Anyone from melee wanna write pools for me?

4. 3 guys from Canberra really need housing. They have a car. They can drive you. Pls <3

5. Exhibitions are not on the main stage, since we couldn't organize anything sufficient. We can have our own business on our normal corner. Crews are good, whatever else. Someone make a poll or something.

 

[1ampercent]

Never been in tournament, nor do I know any of you personally, but may I suggest something?

First time tourney goers Vs. SurPr15e crew battle.

 

[S.D]

If we have our own corner there might be time for new players v surprise. Would be fun to watch anyways.

Attila - is a registered player list available to us??

 

[Attila_]

I have the registration list at home on my computer. Can pass on the melee list tonight?

 

[DD_]

Anyone else still keen for hotel split? Looking to sort something ASAP

 

[Luco]

Apologies for the terribly thought out post, I do better when i've thought about things for some time.

5 things:

1. One stock makes matchups closer to even
Purely on the basis that you don't have to play amazing for a really long time to win. In Ness/Lucas terms, any 0 to death should result in their lose of the match. In a stand bo3, that means they only have one more chance. But in a 1 stock bo5, they completely reset the situation after the first loss, giving them another 4 chances. That makes things much, much more doable. Better players/characters definitely build an advantage the longer the game/set continues for.

As I said in my original post, I fear the greater ability to CP won't mitigate the disadvantage of a single CG resulting in the loss of a match.

That would be great with we had a larger stage list to choose from and my entire point revolved around the ability to adapt to your opponent in a stable and pre-existing environment anyway which is less so in this format. I can only partially reset the situation in my case because I only have 2 places where I can rely on the stage to save me from the infinite - Lylat on a good day (well the tilting patterns are known but still) and PS1. On BF and SV the only thing saving me from the grab is the platform which is a terrible position to be in vs someone like Marth. The 3 stock format allows me to adapt to his playstyle in a better way, I feel.

Isn't the point of a longer match to establish a better player btw? As in, bad players can have spontaneous bursts of strings and kills, I thought the 3 stock system was there to even all that out.

But alright. Taking your point and Splice's post into account, shouldn't that mean we need more stages to CP to? If CPs are as important as you're saying then I shouldn't have to be reduced to like 1 legitimate CP against certain characters that will actually make a difference (lylat is terribad for PK kids anyway). :/

I still think skill could be far more easily preserved in this format with the discontinuation of infinites. But there you go.

 

[Timic83]

more CPs is never a bad thing the brawl stagelist conservatism doesnt make sense with 1 stock lets get shadow moses up in here

 

[S.D]

First off - if your character has a glaring weakness ala Lucas getting grab release infinited, reconsider your low-tier main lifestyle for a start.
Secondly, if you are grabbed, infinited and killed in the first stock of a match, you shouldn't be able to mount a comeback against a player with a lead in any event - point being, a single CG SHOULD spell a loss if it is achieved on the opening stock whether its 1 stock, 3 stock or 7 stock.
A lot of your arguments are centred around why this ruleset makes it hard for YOU as a LOW TIER player.
Guess what, low tiers tend to lose anyway. Get used to it.

 

[Baron Omega]

First off - if your character has a glaring weakness ala Lucas getting grab release infinited, reconsider your low-tier main lifestyle for a start.
Secondly, if you are grabbed, infinited and killed in the first stock of a match, you shouldn't be able to mount a comeback against a player with a lead in any event - point being, a single CG SHOULD spell a loss if it is achieved on the opening stock whether its 1 stock, 3 stock or 7 stock.
A lot of your arguments are centred around why this ruleset makes it hard for YOU as a LOW TIER player.
Guess what, low tiers tend to lose anyway. Get used to it.

well uno man it doesnt exactly matter what character ur using. In my opinion its all dependant on the player and how he uses the character u must know the weaknesses of ur character before u can make it into something u can overcome.

 

[Jamwa]

First off - if your character has a glaring weakness ala Lucas getting grab release infinited, reconsider your low-tier main lifestyle for a start.
Secondly, if you are grabbed, infinited and killed in the first stock of a match, you shouldn't be able to mount a comeback against a player with a lead in any event - point being, a single CG SHOULD spell a loss if it is achieved on the opening stock whether its 1 stock, 3 stock or 7 stock.
A lot of your arguments are centred around why this ruleset makes it hard for YOU as a LOW TIER player.
Guess what, low tiers tend to lose anyway. Get used to it.

disclaimer: I don't agree with Luco, CGs are avoided by standing next to the ledge - simple. Mekos did it very well against Gluttony. strategy is op

Anyway, the ruleset should aim to be fair for the whole cast of characters, not just 'high-tiers'. The point of rules is to remove (as appropriate) any stupidly inherent **** in the game that isn't considered fair. That's why Meta knight's planking or w/e was removed and stalling past 300% or w/e cos ICs could timeout or something like that.

Also it's super easy to comeback in Brawl if you're a better player (= skill ye cg should mean a loss but marth players are usually super bad). You just figure out how your opponent is playing, and then adjust over the next stocks. Consistency will pay off compared to losing your first stock to a gimmick. Yeah, I agree with Billy here that 1 stock is advantageous to Lucas because Lucas is gimmick incarnate. I'm not against the new ruleset other than a few stage things but those can't be avoided because it's b05s and 2 bans would be op.
But my main point was that rulesets should accommodate the entire cast. If the rulesets are inherently unfair then there's no point in competing.
But of course there's currently no competitive problems. The 1 stock just limits how much of a difference there can be in a match due to skill levels - so it takes away from the game a bit but not really. winner is still winner.
or w/e

 

[Luco]

Again, apologies for the muddled up way of thinking and responding.

First off - if your character has a glaring weakness ala Lucas getting grab release infinited, reconsider your low-tier main lifestyle for a start.
Secondly, if you are grabbed, infinited and killed in the first stock of a match, you shouldn't be able to mount a comeback against a player with a lead in any event - point being, a single CG SHOULD spell a loss if it is achieved on the opening stock whether its 1 stock, 3 stock or 7 stock.
A lot of your arguments are centred around why this ruleset makes it hard for YOU as a LOW TIER player.
Guess what, low tiers tend to lose anyway. Get used to it.

I've kind of been waiting for this point to show up; I knew it would.

The thing is, Low Tiers do indeed tend to lose anyway. But not always. And I disagree with a CG in the first stock spelling doom in a 'correct' case because of adapting to the other player's style.

But my point is, Low Tier players manage playing their character by focusing on doing the best they can rather than just necessarily to win. This is my mentality. LT mains still find fun in the game, probably because for us it's still "doable". I see this change as polarising the whole LT thing and quite a lot of players don't play top tiers nor would find it enjoyable to only watch such. If you're going to say that this puts more pressure on already unviable characters then so be it, but expect less attendance from those players because at the end of the day, LT players play for fun. We don't find getting trampled fun and yes I see this as trampling because it means less adaptation is seen than in longer games and you can't deny that this change would make games shorter and therefore limiting that adaptation potential.

But I am considering your point in that the first o-death = kill. Seeing as that's the crux of both arguments i'll think about it a while and get back to you. If you're right then a lot of what i'm saying here would need to be re-evaluated by myself.

EDIT: jamwa brings up a good point. And yes there's obviously merit to the idea of purposely avoiding grabs.

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

If you're adapting, you get literally 1 less stock to work with if you're not just getting beat. Because the sets are Bo5 now, you just have to adapt in the next game instead of the next stock. RIGHT?!? Isn't that the whole point?

 

[Jamwa]

If you're adapting, you get literally 1 less stock to work with if you're not just getting beat. Because the sets are Bo5 now, you just have to adapt in the next game instead of the next stock. RIGHT?!? Isn't that the whole point?

Ye but you lose alex.
cmon dude step it up

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

GOTTA GO FAST

 

[Splice]

you can adapt from one game to the next not just stock to stock
if you lose coz u got cg'd once then you can figure out ur opponent or whatever and not let it happen next game
having 1 stock bo5's doesn't change your ability to evolve throughout the set.

this is a rly dumb conversation when there's still ppl looking for housing and making plans
U wanna get some ppl to put their heads together to organise some exhibitions? no1 says anything
1 stock for Brawl Singles and it's NOT GONNA CHANGE? +3 pages on thread