Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

Jigglypuff really isn't safe at all, and I don't see how she wins against Mario.

Not to mention having to possibly contend with the brick-busting head of doom whenever she tries to approach him when he's grounded.

 

[Zelder]

I don't think Jigglypuff has a winning matchup against anyone who matters, honestly. Jigglypuff is very not good in this game.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yea....she has a great deal of flaws that most likely won't even be fixed....

 

[Nobie]

There was some theory that Jigglypuff could benefit considerably from increased shield stun, because one of her issues is that being airborne all the time means that she can't actually take advantage of shields outside of some Pound shenanigans. Has nothing come of that?

Actually, now that I think about it, what Jigglypuff probably needs is a command grab that she can use in the air.

Either that or just make Sing unblockable.

 

[Antonykun]

Either that or just make Sing unblockable.

do you really want whats effectively an unblockable rest?

 

[Greward]

Unblockable sing would suck anyways. You can wake up before she ends, and the startup is enough that with some matchup experience you would roll away on reaction (starts on frame 29 lol).

 

[Firefoxx]

Jiggs might win against Falcon, only because if she can get Falcon to waste his double jump off-stage (or relatively close to the edge) she has a high chance to convert that into a stock. But also she dies to most random hits from him at like 80 so...

 

[DunnoBro]

Have people not figured out yet that Mario is nowhere near top 5?

Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosie, Ryu, Diddy and Fox are most certainly better characters than Mario. So if you're as generous as realistically possible you could argue that Mario is 8th but that'd still mean that you're arguing him to be better than Pikachu, Ness, Villager, MK, Yoshi, Luigi ... that's not really in the cards. Mario isn't that good.

I personally doubt that a character that loses to Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosie and Ryu [which may very well be the post-patch top 5] can even be top 10.

I wouldn't say nowhere near top 5, but the top 5 slot I think is reserved for fox currently, though the only real edge over other candidates he has is results. Ryu could be there in theory but too soon to tell.

(Also mario is definitely better than pika and yoshi lol. Both in results and theory. Pika is extremely overhyped)

@Komokiri's MU Chart: Should be taken with a grain of salt as this chart assumes sonic can always start on FD/Smashville and doesn't have to play battlefield if he doesn't want to.

Ex. Considering how close he considers the Mario MU with that in mind, when mario can ensure he gets to play bf/dl/t&c to start and way better CPs I think it's safe to say the MU is likely even here.

 

[Xeze]

Jigglypuff's main problem is the lack of a good neutral game and shield pressure outside of pound.

Mario is definitely not top 5, considering how he has to fish for kills. Top 10 maybe. Mario is one of the characters that does well vs Sheik, imo. Anti's Mario showed that and even Ally does well vs Sheik's that aren't ZeRo (ZeRo gives Ally a mental block everytime they play apparently).

 

[Antonykun]

Have people not figured out yet that Mario is nowhere near top 5?

Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosie, Ryu, Diddy and Fox are most certainly better characters than Mario. So if you're as generous as realistically possible you could argue that Mario is 8th but that'd still mean that you're arguing him to be better than Pikachu, Ness, Villager, MK, Yoshi, Luigi ... that's not really in the cards. Mario isn't that good.

I personally doubt that a character that loses to Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Rosie and Ryu [which may very well be the post-patch top 5] can even be top 10.

again top X is pretty arbitrary.

I know you believe that Mario's pretty good and Ally been putting work with him so whether or not he's top 5/10 matters very little because i doubt he has MU's where he gets bodied.

call me a pessimistic villager main but i think Mario>Villager, though that might just be me feeling the unpleasantness that is the Mario/Villager MU

 

[Greward]

Ryu has a very bad matchup against Sonic, I think this really hurts his chances at top5.

 

[Zannabluke]

does it? or was just 6wx beating trela at mlg and not sonic beating ryu

i think the former

 

[LuLLo]

Jiggs might win against Falcon, only because if she can get Falcon to waste his double jump off-stage (or relatively close to the edge) she has a high chance to convert that into a stock. But also she dies to most random hits from him at like 80 so...

Falcon needs no random hit at 80, he has a guaranteed kill setup starting at something like 40% and ending at around 60-70%. A dashgrab to immediate dthrow -> knee is a true combo and kills near the ledge on all lightweights. Falcon's neutral is also too good for her to keep him out. I'd say 65-35 onstage for Falcon, 70-30 offstage for Jiggs.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I have to agree that Mario isn't really really top 5 material; top 10, maybe, but not top 5. He's fundamentally solid, he's got some tricks in his bag, but overall he's sort of outclassed by other characters in most places.

 

[the king of murder]

I am curious but who does Jigglypuff even win against including the irrelevant characters?

 

[DunnoBro]

Jigglypuff's main problem is the lack of a good neutral game and shield pressure outside of pound.

Mario is definitely not top 5, considering how he has to fish for kills. Top 10 maybe. Mario is one of the characters that does well vs Sheik, imo. Anti's Mario showed that and even Ally does well vs Sheik's that aren't ZeRo (ZeRo gives Ally a mental block everytime they play apparently).

Mario doesn't "do well" vs sheik so much as he's one of the characters that scares her most when she can't get the kill.

She dominates neutral and has a much easier time killing unless the mario is in rage mode(then mario is much better at killing depending on the stage). Essentially, mario and sheik are about on even footing stock per stock. But sheik gets the first stock, she's probably still low on %. Mario gets the first stock, he's high so things are still pretty even.

 

[Tri Knight]

(I swear if FIXED becomes a new Smash meme...)

Tri Knight So Link's second jab can't be used to send opponents into enough hitstun to where he can actively hit them with a lot of attacks? So the official information in the game about it was wrong despite the developers intending for Link's Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Smash Attack/Spin Attack to work?

Oh it works... against incompetent players. But no, it does not put them into enough hit stun to create a true combo. It can combo. But it can't true combo. It's not guaranteed. Any attack you throw out after jab2 can be blocked and punished accordingly. Especially if it's a smash or spin attack. Then you might argue, try to grab after. No, that doesn't work either because that can put you in a bad spot as well.

You're talking about gambles that can cost Link a whole stock.

 

[Doomsday]

Maybe we should make a thread where we put chars into certain rankings without actually choosing the minor details(except maybe sheik as #1). Such as these chars are in top 10, these chars are in 10-20, etc.

Then we could also label like 1-25 as tourney viable alone, 26-50 as viable with secondary, and 50 onward as viable as counter pick. I don't know if you that's the correct way, I'm just giving ideas.

 

[Zelder]

Maybe we should make a thread where we put chars into certain rankings without actually choosing the minor details(except maybe sheik as #1). Such as these chars are in top 10, these chars are in 10-20, etc.

I too, live for endless arguments over minor minutia.

 

[Doomsday]

I too, live for endless arguments over minor minutia.

I meant just to agree certain chars are in top 20 or in top 10 etc.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

I meant just to agree certain chars are in top 20 or in top 10 etc.

Yeah I feel that'd be better. Top 5 is not really debatable. However once it goes to top 10 and top 20 it's debatable.

 

[teddystalin]

Yeah I feel that'd be better. Top 5 is not really debatable. However once it goes to top 10 and top 20 it's debatable.

If people can't even settle on a consistent top 3, top 5 is most certainly debatable. No matter how big you make the distinctions, they're all going to suffer from the same list-making problem: you'll reach the last spot and still have ~5 deserving characters who slipped your mind competing for it.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I hate the fact some characters are literally always high or top tier.......give someone like Link or Donkey kong a chance(not saying their bad at all, just saying they never have really been high to begin with)

 

[Antonykun]

If people can't even settle on a consistent top 3, top 5 is most certainly debatable.

before this patch/MLG people couldn't even settle on top 2 it was a battle between ZSS and Rosalina with the likes of Fox and Pikachu showing up here and there

I hate the fact some characters are literally always high or top tier.......give someone like Link or Donkey kong a chance(not saying their bad at all, just saying they never have really been high to begin with)

that has more to do with their designs not being well cut for competitive smash

 

[Doomsday]

IMO top 4 is Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, and Diddy, in that order. My diddy opinion is only based off of how good he's still doing in tournaments even after all the nerfs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I see little point in debating Top X for any value of X. I'm more concerned about the distinction between characters that can feasibly win on their own, characters that can feasibly win with help from secondaries, characters that are good as secondaries but not mains, and characters that aren't worth using at all. The number of characters in each of those categories should be irrelevant. (I'm not even sure that last category has any members as of right now.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know you believe that Mario's pretty good and Ally been putting work with him so whether or not he's top 5/10 matters very little because i doubt he has MU's where he gets bodied.

Maybe not anymore but Mario did kinda get bodied by Luigi pre-patch. People like HeroMystic probably know better but I'd wager the matchup is still in Luigi's favor.

 

[Trifroze]

Not to mention Sheik wants to combo you horizontally while ZSS wants to combo you vertically, it's a pretty big core gameplan difference as well. you might even say Sheik likes sideways while ZSS would rather be below you. For instance I think ZSS punishes landings better, not due to marginally faster run speed but because of her grab, dash attack and vertical juggle potential and threat due to uair. Sheik just doesn't have anything similar, although on the other hand her tools are far better for gimps offstage due to her better horizontal hitboxes and lingering attacks. This plays a part in neutral as well, as ZSS' hitboxes are really precise and short in their duration.

Sheik is low risk high reward and ZSS is medium risk very high reward. This is largely due to their risk of going for grabs and the reward for landing one, but at the same time I can't call ZSS high risk when her aerials are so safe on shield and also lead to combos or confirm into grab. Sheik on the other hand has fair which also leads to her combos, and not only is it super safe but it also comes out fast at the same time since you can hit with it out of rising SH and then autocancel it perfectly. ZSS has aerials that are just as safe on whiff/shield but she has to be in the air for about 30 frames first compared to Sheik's 4 frames of fair startup in addition to their 4 frame jumpsquats. This is in my opinion the biggest reason why neutral vs Sheik feels so difficult with ZSS for example, and ZSS' clutch advantage is the only reason the MU could be considered anything other than a clear losing one, and so it's probably approximately even.

Paralyzer isn't really good if you focus on avoiding it, and I think the best usage for it is to force an airdodge or a jump offstage and then punish it with something. It's one of those things that's a lot better if the opponent doesn't have the sufficient MU experience. Needles on the other hand remain amazing on any level for pretty much any purpose except maybe setups, although aerial needles can do that pretty well too. Sheik can force anyone to approach or to stop their actions and focus on shielding, while ZSS can only really force approaches from those who don't have an answer for zair, although ZSS' defense is probably ultimately equal to or better than Sheik's despite the lack of a usable shieldgrab due to up b OoS, nair and zair disjoints, dsmash spacing and ftilt. Jab is a bit unreliable despite being frame 1. Regardless, ZSS has to play defense and a very retreating sort of shield pressure while Sheik can just go in, or when she wants to, pull back and throw needles and fairs and then dash grab without much risk when there's an opening.

I think the only similarities between Sheik and ZSS really are a good disadvantage, essentially free recovery, mobility and the fact that they're both top characters.

 

[HeroMystic]

Maybe not anymore but Mario did kinda get bodied by Luigi pre-patch. People like HeroMystic probably know better but I'd wager the matchup is still in Luigi's favor.

Pre-patch was definitely in Luigi's favor and it was for more than just the death combos.

Without the kill set-ups, it's easier, but there's no way to swing this in Mario's favor. He still trades badly with Luigi, and Luigi's low mobility doesn't matter much when Mario doesn't have a range advantage. Luigi's U-Smash is also a very effective anti-air, and he is also still hard to disrespect due to N-air.

Mario's only real advantage is he juggles Luigi harder due to U-Smash and having a better neutral game. Without the death combos they're both forced to use reads to kill. Mario's U-Smash is better in this case, though Luigi has a very efficient F-Smash.

Arguably even, but it's still slightly in Luigi's favor imo, mainly due to the fact that Mario can't disrespect his kit while Luigi can.

---

In my opinion of Mario's hardest MUs from greatest to least.

1. Rosalina
2. Sonic
3. Sheik
4. Ryu
5. ZSS

Honorable mention of Greninja.

None of them are hard counters but they are losing MUs.

 

[Coopwastaken]

Why is it that people have pikachu outside of top 5 now? Maybe I was looking at the wrong list, but he seemed to always be the talk of the town when it came to the top 5, and he was usually sitting at 3 or 4.

 

[hypersonicJD]

How can Mario be losing to Ryu? He can just stop Hadouken with a fireball or reflecting it, Mario can hit Ryu very nicely with Up Air and Up TIlt, and gimp him with Cape and Fludd. I don't really see it as a losing match-up to Mario. Hell, not even Sonic isn't that bad for Mario. It's 55:45 in favor of Sonic but it really isn't that bad. Rosalina on the other hand... Yeah... If you use Mario againts Rosalina, is a massacre.

 

[Antonykun]

Why is it that people have pikachu outside of top 5 now? Maybe I was looking at the wrong list, but he seemed to always be the talk of the town when it came to the top 5, and he was usually sitting at 3 or 4.

"name another high level Pikachhu that isn't ESAM"
is the argument

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario loses to Ryu because despite how good Mario is, Ryu has the mobility to keep up with him and Ryu if playing reactively just doesn't have to worry about most of Mario's approaches because of his INSANE damage and range on top of said damage. Mario has to worry about trades and even getting outsped frame data wise (Ryu's Fair is frame 6, the same speed of Mario's Bair, except it does like 15% and is way longer and also doesn't require a RAR which is good for Ryu so he can still face forward).

Ryu also lives forever and Ryu with Rage is scary for anyone, so Mario does not like that either considering his kill setups (The ones that exist) are really hard to land (Dair into PP USmash, landing Dair specifically) and Ryu comparatively kills him a lot easier by any fast action into SRK.

 

[FullMoon]

In my opinion of Mario's hardest MUs from least to greatest.

1. Rosalina
2. Sonic
3. Sheik
4. Ryu
5. ZSS

Honorable mention of Greninja.

None of them are hard counters but they are losing MUs.

Oh? This is interesting. I've seen people say that this MU was in Mario's favor before, interesting to see a Mario main think it's in our favor.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Mario loses to Ryu because despite how good Mario is, Ryu has the mobility to keep up with him and Ryu if playing reactively just doesn't have to worry about most of Mario's approaches because of his INSANE damage and range on top of said damage. Mario has to worry about trades and even getting outsped frame data wise (Ryu's Fair is frame 6, the same speed of Mario's Bair, except it does like 15% and is way longer and also doesn't require a RAR which is good for Ryu so he can still face forward).

Ryu also lives forever and Ryu with Rage is scary for anyone, so Mario does not like that either considering his kill setups (The ones that exist) are really hard to land (Dair into PP USmash, landing Dair specifically) and Ryu comparatively kills him a lot easier by any fast action into SRK.

Alright then. I think I learned something new today

 

[Xeze]

In my opinion of Mario's hardest MUs from greatest to least.

1. Rosalina
2. Sonic
3. Sheik
4. Ryu
5. ZSS

Honorable mention of Greninja.

None of them are hard counters but they are losing MUs.

Where is DK on that list? He is way harder than Ryu, ZSS and even Sheik.

 

[HeroMystic]

How can Mario be losing to Ryu? He can just stop Hadouken with a fireball or reflecting it, Mario can hit Ryu very nicely with Up Air and Up TIlt, and gimp him with Cape and Fludd. I don't really see it as a losing match-up to Mario. Hell, not even Sonic isn't that bad for Mario. It's 55:45 in favor of Sonic but it really isn't that bad. Rosalina on the other hand... Yeah... If you use Mario againts Rosalina, is a massacre.

Ryu is difficult to juggle due to Focus Attack, meaning he can block our BnB strings forcing us to respect him. Ryu's damage and shield pressure is also insane, and he has legit kill confirms that come from U-tilt and D-tilt. Mario is forced to play very safe against him, especially during kill percents.

Sonic is hard for Mario if his goal is to time you out. Fortunately there are like, no campy Sonics. Not even Manny is campy anymore.

Where is DK on that list? He is way harder than Ryu, ZSS and even Sheik.

Can't take you seriously, bro.

 

[bpjk27]

I wouldn't say nowhere near top 5, but the top 5 slot I think is reserved for fox currently, though the only real edge over other candidates he has is results. Ryu could be there in theory but too soon to tell.

(Also mario is definitely better than pika and yoshi lol. Both in results and theory. Pika is extremely overhyped)

@Komokiri's MU Chart: Should be taken with a grain of salt as this chart assumes sonic can always start on FD/Smashville and doesn't have to play battlefield if he doesn't want to.

Ex. Considering how close he considers the Mario MU with that in mind, when mario can ensure he gets to play bf/dl/t&c to start and way better CPs I think it's safe to say the MU is likely even here.

Should be noted that Komorikiri and Ally struck to battlefield for game 1, which Komorikiri won.
Ally actually counter picked SV. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcSrOklBYuw

 

[TurboLink]

I thought Mario vs. Rosalina was even. Is it in Rosalina's favor because of her range?

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK is in no way Mario's worst MU. It is even or in Mario's favor. Mario can get in DK's face and still rack up damage and cover his landing all day. Sure mid range, DK may have the leg up, but close range and and farther ranged, DK suffers. Having an easy to cape recovery and no ledge options means that getting back on stage means possibly taking like 40%. Onstage, the game is probably in DK's favor if the Mario is so bold and stupid to straight up go and fight him. Offstage is more important IMO, so Mario has the leg up there.

I hate the fact some characters are literally always high or top tier.......give someone like Link or Donkey kong a chance(not saying their bad at all, just saying they never have really been high to begin with)

Well, rush down characters are usually going to prevail because mobility and good frame data is important in fighting games. Also having kill confirms is important which most top tiers had.