Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Amadeus9]

I thought this was our not quite social but still sort of social, tier list debating, opinion confirming/debunking, tournament hyping, top level result having match up spread debating thread.

In all honesty I check up on this to make sure I don't miss anything that happened. It's sort of like a news feed to me. I do learn some things about frame data though.

General Meta Discussion basically. What's going on and what has changed. That's just me though.

Fair enough. But if that's what it is, there shouldn't be any complaints about the discussion repeating itself or being unproductive, because that's a result of the format. I'm sick of seeing the same complaint every couple pages.

 

[wedl!!]

Even though SlayerZ is starting to place consistently with solo Peach, that's not enough to make her relevant (or close to it)? TIL.

Won't be saying that next major/national he goes to, I can bet you that.

 

[Gawain]

I'm very sad that I'm seeing people saying 1-1-1-1 Brawler and Sword are garbage here after I lined out quite clearly how they can do tons of stuff the characters we like to say are top tier do. Lemme quote that again in case it got missed:

Spoiler

Someone mentioned 1-1-1-1 Mii Brawler. Well it's time for an adventure in the weird fun facts I know about characters no one else pays attention to!

Fun Fact: Down throw into fair into grab reset into pummel into downthrow into fair reset into down throw into up air into back air can do 60% DAMAGE ON SHEIK FROM 0%. And yeah if you follow DI it can true combo from as far as any testing/matches I've had can tell. Works on a lot of fast fallers/heavies. This combo can do a lot of things too like you can go for dair and finish it early but try to spike off stage and other stuff.

Down throw into up b near the ledge at low percents can either spike (with you dieing with them) or you can just down throw - dair them. Down tilt can start combos and goes into up air until rather high percents and up tilt can start some things too.

The shotput can work for zoning and as a unique movement option, up b can spike folks with creative ledge trumping, side b is an okay punish and as far as I know down b is crap outside of a magical hard read at high percents to try and link into f-smash.

So you have a Marioish character that can actually put up some serious damage rather early and quickly. Here's the issue: KILLING WITH MII BRAWLER IS A [expletive deleted]

F-smash is SO laggy. Up smash takes a while to kill but as an odd tipper at the end of the move that could have edge guarding properties. side b can kill but it takes a strong punish at high percents. Outside of spikes if you're lucky there's maybe down smash which isn't horrible but isn't great either.

So in all honesty, we probably have a yoshi-esque character in a way where they have decent speed and can wrack up damage but as of now securing the kill is a pain. Plus with a rather linear recovery gimping is doable. To be honest I could still see Mii Brawler actually being high up there on the viable list but probably JUST at the very end.

---​

Now onto the Mii I also know a lot about: Swordfighter. He's basically got 3 of the best moves he could want in 1-1-1-1: he's the Mii hurt the least by that arbitrary rule. I'll put it bluntly: if you think characters like Roy, Ike and Marth should be up there you probably should put Swordfighter right near them in a neat little bunch.

His buffs have been great for wracking on more damage, speed, and being a bit more safe. Fair can cancel into kill moves (and jab can too as a 50/50), his recovery has the sexy spike, up air can kill and combos out of throws very well, down air can poke shields, makes coming down nice, and can combo into footstool nicely for combos and/or off stage death. Bair can do nice damage and is rather fast/kill move. It can be comboed into too! Down tilt can combo into nair which can actually end up with grab resets at mid percents or you can just Fair for damage.

Hows about up air into up air TRUE COMBOS at kill percents? (is more complicated but is honestly landable for real)

He's a solid character with decent atributes, combos, and a disjoint. Don't count him out. He's nowheres near this whole (bottom character) thing people keep throwing him in. It's hard to cut the "worst character in the game" attitudes people got about him before ignoring he existed back in the early days

---​

Mii Gunner: ask someone who knows more. I gotta toy with gunner more in 1-1-1-1.

Get out of the dark ages. a 1-1-1-1 brawler could hold his own in the upper areas if we think Yoshi can and if you think Ike/Marth/Roy/Lucina is any good Swordfighter at worst trails right behind them (if not above some of them). People REALLY need to go learn about Miis more.

It doesn't matter how well you line something out here. If the minority-majority of this thread disagrees,then you're wrong after a nice little quip and no discussion on what you posted. It's like the theme of this thread.

For the record I definitely agree that the thread needs to run on a rotation, but that's not going to solve the issue that this place is broken record.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

He just pulled it out last Smash Conference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YYK_WZGhKo

Oh... huh. Stopped seeing/hearing about his Palutena a little after the Diddy nerfs. I know he preferred using her against Diddy even before the nerfs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Even though SlayerZ is starting to place consistently with solo Peach, that's not enough to make her relevant (or close to it)? TIL.

Won't be saying that next major/national he goes to, I can bet you that.

To be completely fair though, SlayerZ is an outstanding individual player to the point where he might have to be considered an outlier. Most non-high tier mains would love to have a player of his skill on their side.

 

[Djent]

Does have any unwinnable MUs? seems to be on the doable side of bad, but I'm less sure about /.

 

[Nu~]

I would assume that the characters that give peach the most trouble would be strong zoners. How is the villager matchup?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox doesn't have a huge advantage against Peach and I heard that she gives Rosa a hard time.

 

[thegrovylekid]

this was made using Warchamp7's #PostYourRosterHD, then minimized to 33% so it could all fit onto one screen.

The tiers are as follows:
Red - S
Blue - A+
Yellow - A
Green - B+
Orange - C+
Teal - C
Pink - D
Gray - E
Purple - F

Placements:
Rosalina & Luma over ZSS: I feel like ZSS's slow grab places her just behind the other two, who can easily tack on ~30% by punishing it. ZSS is definitely top 3 though, and easily S tier.

Luigi's low placement: Luigi has many flaws, including a hard time returning to the stage horizontally, a hard time landing from above, and awful traction, which outshine his combo ability and land him at 7th.

Ike in B+: Ike's spacing with his sword [second longest sword in the game] and ease of which he gets KOs, especially with BAir, which is his second fastest move and kills earlier than most of Shiek's moves make him a very strong character.

That's it, feel free to politely point out things you find odd!

Also, is probably 's worst matchup.

 

[Rizen]

On the OP: I'm curious as to why are on the same tier as characters like ? They seem underwhelming but I'm probably unaware of recent patch buffs/results.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So uh ... what's the thought process behind Mario > Fox that a lot of these custom made tier lists claim?

Not that I should take tier lists very serious that have Rosalina at #2 and Roy in the same tier as Sonic but I'm still kinda curious.

 

[wedl!!]

The Rosa MU isn't that bad, lol. It's a way harder version of the Icie MU. Play really patient and you win. In footsies Luma doesn't do that much other than try to defend with lunar landing Nair, and then get murdered while Rosa sits in shield.

IDK the Fox MU that well to write anything about it, but from what I've played of it it's not awful, but still in Fox's favor because of how hard he punishes her.

Sheik's pretty hard. You NEED a good turnip game to catch a campy Sheik (read: optimal) off, which even then isn't realistic because you'd probably be sent across the ends of the stage with fair strings. Peach's great edgeguarding (which is a good chunk of her punish game after 100% where her setups don't work) really doesn't matter against Sheik. It also doesn't help that her best stages (SV, FD, Battlefield) are also Sheik's best stages.

Sonic is close to even even lmao. QFC Nair beats out most of his game and he gets walled super hard. Stay on the ground and it's easier to win. Ask @Seagull Joe about it, he'll go more in-depth.

Villager is definitely her worst matchup. She gets zoned so hard it's physically straining to play against. Turnips don't even matter because they clank slingshot, so she can't do anything except hope a float aerial lands and that she doesn't get zoned back to the end of the stage.

 

[Smog Frog]

View attachment 72279
this was made using Warchamp7's #PostYourRosterHD, then minimized to 33% so it could all fit onto one screen.

The tiers are as follows:
Red - S
Blue - A+
Yellow - A
Green - B+
Orange - C+
Teal - C
Pink - D
Gray - E
Purple - F

Placements:
Rosalina & Luma over ZSS: I feel like ZSS's slow grab places her just behind the other two, who can easily tack on ~30% by punishing it. ZSS is definitely top 3 though, and easily S tier.

Luigi's low placement: Luigi has many flaws, including a hard time returning to the stage horizontally, a hard time landing from above, and awful traction, which outshine his combo ability and land him at 7th.

Ike in B+: Ike's spacing with his sword [second longest sword in the game] and ease of which he gets KOs, especially with BAir, which is his second fastest move and kills earlier than most of Shiek's moves make him a very strong character.

That's it, feel free to politely point out things you find odd!

Also, is probably 's worst matchup.

i dont give a **** about the other odd placings; why the **** is so low? thats the thing that stands out to me the most and demands the most immediate explanation out of any of your placings. at best its a radical opinion and at worst its straight up stupid.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Sonic is close to even even lmao. QFC Nair beats out most of his game and he gets walled super hard. Stay on the ground and it's easier to win. Ask @Seagull Joe about it, he'll go more in-depth.

Good to know.

On Peach MUs, usually, I end up having the most trouble facing characters with disjointed hitboxes such as Ike and the pits. maybe I'm just playing it wrong, but those are the characters I have the most trouble with.

 

[Snackss]

On the OP: I'm curious as to why are on the same tier as characters like ? They seem underwhelming but I'm probably unaware of recent patch buffs/results.

It says "inconclusive." Robin has considerable KO power, spacing, and aerials, but terrible movement and pretty bad grab. Falco is just, not great really, but people don't want to write him off as hopeless. His moves individually aren't bad enough to put him in bottom tier anymore, but he still doesn't have a good neutral or camping.

Game and Watch I have no idea.

 

[thegrovylekid]

i dont give a **** about the other odd placings; why the **** is so low? thats the thing that stands out to me the most and demands the most immediate explanation out of any of your placings. at best its a radical opinion and at worst its straight up stupid.

I actually mained for a long period of time, until they nerfed ALL of his viable kill options. He some of the most trouble killing out of any character, even shiek, a character harped on frequently for trouble KOing, kills earlier than Sonic on average.

So uh ... what's the thought process behind Mario > Fox that a lot of these custom made tier lists claim?

Umm, the r/smashbros tier list puts Mario above Fox, too. the main reason I did it was because Fox's Jab Lock was removed while Mario still has one.

 

[Smog Frog]

you seem to be overreacting to his kill power nerfs. the only really significant one was bthrow which was about as significant as bair getting nerfed. is still top 10 and is most likely top 5.

 

[Wintermelon43]

View attachment 72279
this was made using Warchamp7's #PostYourRosterHD, then minimized to 33% so it could all fit onto one screen.

The tiers are as follows:
Red - S
Blue - A+
Yellow - A
Green - B+
Orange - C+
Teal - C
Pink - D
Gray - E
Purple - F

Placements:
Rosalina & Luma over ZSS: I feel like ZSS's slow grab places her just behind the other two, who can easily tack on ~30% by punishing it. ZSS is definitely top 3 though, and easily S tier.

Luigi's low placement: Luigi has many flaws, including a hard time returning to the stage horizontally, a hard time landing from above, and awful traction, which outshine his combo ability and land him at 7th.

Ike in B+: Ike's spacing with his sword [second longest sword in the game] and ease of which he gets KOs, especially with BAir, which is his second fastest move and kills earlier than most of Shiek's moves make him a very strong character.

That's it, feel free to politely point out things you find odd!

Also, is probably 's worst matchup.

Pac-Man 27th? Obvisualy you have no idea what Abadango is. He has great KO Power, good recovery, is hard to kill (Unless you're Rosalina), has great specials, Great projectiles, and good tilts, smashes, and air attacks. But why am I wasting my time, if you just watch Abadango's Pac-Man you'll put him up like ten places in a heartbeat.

 

[Ffamran]

Even though SlayerZ is starting to place consistently with solo Peach, that's not enough to make her relevant (or close to it)? TIL.

Won't be saying that next major/national he goes to, I can bet you that.

I'm being a hard *** to drive a point. Still, Peach is kind of in a situation Greninja is in, but if she gets into a situation where Meta Knight is in, then it would prove she's not being played by just 1 extraordinary player and her theories are practical. Greninja has pretty much aMSa as the most well known and most skilled Greninja - kind of the same with Pac-Man and Bowser Jr. too with Abandango and Tweek, maybe Duck Hunt and Brood or Mr. Game & Watch and GimR. Meta Knight had only Ito at one point with so-so players like Unknown, Tyrant, and even lloD. It wasn't until Tyrant, Leo, Mr. R, Ally, Zex, and more showed up - read: bandwagoning - and placed consistently well. Greninja kind of has NinjaLink, but Peach at least had SlayerZ and lloD in the beginning. More people show up or more players getting better and she'll probably be up there.

Even then, it could all end horribly where only 1 player is playing a character no matter how good or bad. Greninja could end up as the Wolf of Smash 4.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Some people wonder why the act of posting tier lists is frowned upon and this is it. "X is too low are you stupid?!?!" posts for pages.

On topic: Sonic's killpower isnt bad. Saying it's "bad" is like saying Diddy can't kill, which is outright false unless you think the Hoo Hah was his only kill option. Sonic's Fsmash and Usmash are still incridible KO options. Back air is still a great kill option. Even Nair can kill at higher percents.

 

[Zage]

Pac-Man 27th? Obvisualy you have no idea what Abadango is. He has great KO Power

That just isn't true. Pac-man isn't KOing anyone in shield. As it is now, he is easily bottom of B tier if we're being generous, top of C tier seems to be a the most realistic placement.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Pac-Man 27th? Obvisualy you have no idea what Abadango is. He has great KO Power, good recovery, is hard to kill (Unless you're Rosalina), has great specials, Great projectiles, and good tilts, smashes, and air attacks. But why am I wasting my time, if you just watch Abadango's Pac-Man you'll put him up like ten places in a heartbeat.

The only Abadango match I could find was him vs. Dabuz. I also don't like moving players upwards on my lists because of just one player. If a Meta Knight-esque situation occurs where many people begin making waves with him, then I will move him up 10 places in a heartbeat.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Umm, the r/smashbros tier list puts Mario above Fox, too.

That's ... just about the least convincing argument you could've made.

Even then, it could all end horribly where only 1 player is playing a character no matter how good or bad. Greninja could end up as the Wolf of Smash 4.

Fyi, Wolf almost always had at least two players repping the character.

 

[thegrovylekid]

That's ... just about the least convincing argument you could've made.

understandable. My point about the Jab Lock still stands.

 

[teddystalin]

The only Abadango match I could find was him vs. Dabuz. I also don't like moving players upwards on my lists because of just one player.

But isn't that how Pikachu always gets put in top 5...? Also, judging by where you put Lucas and Roy, you felt comfortable moving characters upward based on no players.

 

[Amadeus9]

While we're posting tier lists, here's mine.

Made this a couple weeks ago. If i were to change anything now I would move dk up to b+, swap ryu and greninja, and move samus up to c- and remove d tier altogether. If anyone has any complaints I can address them or maybe you can change my mind.

Miis are odd because of weight and customs sets and their legality. I assumed medium size and 1111. In this set I'm strongly of the opinion that brawler is the worst mii fighter and gunner and sword are close to each other.

 

[Ffamran]

Fyi, Wolf almost always had at least two players repping the character.

Yeah, Seagull and Kain were the most notable. Kain dropped off while the other Wolf players listed in the wiki I don't really know about them.

 

[Hippieslayer]

View attachment 72279
this was made using Warchamp7's #PostYourRosterHD, then minimized to 33% so it could all fit onto one screen.

The tiers are as follows:
Red - S
Blue - A+
Yellow - A
Green - B+
Orange - C+
Teal - C
Pink - D
Gray - E
Purple - F

Placements:
Rosalina & Luma over ZSS: I feel like ZSS's slow grab places her just behind the other two, who can easily tack on ~30% by punishing it. ZSS is definitely top 3 though, and easily S tier.

Luigi's low placement: Luigi has many flaws, including a hard time returning to the stage horizontally, a hard time landing from above, and awful traction, which outshine his combo ability and land him at 7th.

Ike in B+: Ike's spacing with his sword [second longest sword in the game] and ease of which he gets KOs, especially with BAir, which is his second fastest move and kills earlier than most of Shiek's moves make him a very strong character.

That's it, feel free to politely point out things you find odd!

Also, is probably 's worst matchup.

Well the list is full of stuff which makes no sense at all, such as Roy being even close to where he is and Donkey not being on the list at all. But most of all I find it odd that you felt the need to post this list in the first place. These tier lists really do little to encourage any constructive discussion seeing as about 80% of them are just smack full of errors. All they do is cause facepalms and instigate irritated responses.

While we're posting tier lists, here's mine.

Made this a couple weeks ago. If i were to change anything now I would move dk up to b+, swap ryu and greninja, and move samus up to c- and remove d tier altogether. If anyone has any complaints I can address them or maybe you can change my mind.

Miis are odd because of weight and customs sets and their legality. I assumed medium size and 1111. In this set I'm strongly of the opinion that brawler is the worst mii fighter and gunner and sword are close to each other.

TBH, we need a rule against this. If you think a character is better or worse than the general consensus deems it just make an argument about that. A tier list like this is essentially just a ****ton of blanket statements á "x character is this good/bad" condensed into a list, ie a whole lot of non-content. Why should people care about your blanket statements again?

 

[DblCrest]

I'm actually surprised Kirby is usually in the middle somewhere on most lists.
I expect the majority to put him somewhere lower due to how much work you have put in with him on some match ups. Though I could be underrating him these days. Haven't checked if of Triple R or Mike Kirby have been up to much with him as of late.

Though he's a good doubles partner apparently.
Speaking of doubles, is the Vanish + Oil panic combo still the best solution these days?

 

[ARGHETH]

TBH, we need a rule against this. If you think a character is better or worse than the general consensus deems it just make an argument about that. A tier list like this is essentially just a ****ton of blanket statements á "x character is this good/bad" condensed into a list, ie a whole lot of non-content. Why should people care about your blanket statements again?

Would going by the OP for something close to "general consensus" work? Or would they have to read the last fifty or so pages of the thread? (just asking; I'm not planning on making a tier list of my own)

 

[Thinkaman]

People thought this topic was about ranking characters, but it's really about ranking tier lists. Such meta.

 

[Hippieslayer]

That's ... just about the least convincing argument you could've made.



Fyi, Wolf almost always had at least two players repping the character.

Post count 45, brings up reddits tier list as an argument. It seems to me that a lot of the people who feel the need to post tier list are new people who want to brandish their grasp of the smash meta but instead succeed only in brandishing their susceptibility to Dunning Kruger syndrome.

 

[Amadeus9]

Well the list is full of stuff which makes no sense at all, such as Roy being even close to where he is and Donkey not being on the list at all. But most of all I find it odd that you felt the need to post this list in the first place. These tier lists really do little to encourage any constructive discussion seeing as about 80% of them are just smack full of errors. All they do is cause facepalms and instigate irritated responses.



TBH, we need a rule against this. If you think a character is better or worse than the general consensus deems it just make an argument about that. A tier list like this is essentially just a ****ton of blanket statements á "x character is this good/bad" condensed into a list, ie a whole lot of non-content. Why should people care about your blanket statements again?

Maybe I'm making a point about arguing a bunch of opposing viewpoints on arbitrary tier lists? I didn't expect anyone to agree with my list. It's stupid we're even having this discussion.

 

[Nu~]

That just isn't true. Pac-man isn't KOing anyone in shield. As it is now, he is easily bottom of B tier if we're being generous, top of C tier seems to be a the most realistic placement.

Lol at Pac isn't killing anyone inside of shield.
Upwards Apple toss -> trampoline says hi. Hydrant pressure + trampoline?
Galxian tosses + hydrant pressure?

Please proceed to sit back and hold shield against my assault. I will use that time to set up, then come to beat your face in.
We know that he has an awful grab, but you are being hyperbolic. Actually, if we're playing that game...guess abadango only got far in EVO because everyone forgot to hold that shield button.
Dee must also be a fraud because those bells and galaxian tosses could have all been shielded.


If your argument is that is that Pacman is low because he "loses to shield", then why is fox perceived to be so high? Pikachu? Yoshi? Toon link? Villager?

Having a smaller pool of options to kill an opponent in shield isn't the end-all-be-all determinant of kill power. Being that liberal with your shield is going to earn you a shield break, trampoline + fruit kill, or time out.

 

[NegaNixx]

We talking about tier list? I only have a rough top 15. But I'll post top 20 for discussion purposes.


_____________





_____________




Other Threats:
Notable:

Looking In:

Ordered from 1-10
10-25 is unordered except for the tier they're in.

Yoshi is pretty low because I haven't seen him perform, at high level, Peach has just started to perform so she's still looking in though probably at the top of it. Olimar seems more like a counterpick character than one who can solo perform and succeed at nationals. Marth hasn't had all his traps optimized yet having False and Ally pick up the character is amazing though since we now have some representation.

Fox I feel is a better character than Mario but Mario has the better results. They're interchangeable in my mind. Luigi is the gate keeper character not quite type ten but still a threat after the fireball nerf it allowed people to better challenge his fireballs and not get trapped as easily. He's also been very absent as of late. Ryu has been pretty much living up to expectations now that his play style is taking form.

Anything odd about this one? I tried to mix theory with results equally.

 

[wedl!!]

• Ike has no results except for Ryo stomping weeklies
• Peach actually gets results at tournaments that matter a lot more
• Ike is more notable than her

otherwise our top 10s are exactly the same except for fox>mario wtf

 

[Zage]

Lol at Pac isn't killing anyone inside of shield.
Upwards Apple toss -> trampoline says hi. Hydrant pressure + trampoline?
Galxian tosses + hydrant pressure?

Please proceed to sit back and hold shield against my assault. I will use that time to set up, then come to beat your face in.
We know that he has an awful grab, but you are being hyperbolic. Actually, if we're playing that game...guess abadango only got far in EVO because everyone forgot to hold that shield button.
Dee must also be a fraud because those bells and galaxian tosses could have all been shielded.


If your argument is that is that Pacman is low because he "loses to shield", then why is fox so high? Pikachu? Yoshi? Toon link? Villager?

Having a smaller pool of options to kill an opponent in shield isn't the end-all-be-all determinant of kill power. Being that liberal with your shield is going to earn you a shield break, trampoline + fruit kill, or time out.

Being optimistic about a character strengths is one thing, but flat out ignoring your weaknesses is doing nothing but hurting your own character lol. You can't even begin to compare Pac-man to the likes of Fox/Yoshi/Toon Link who all have guaranteed KO options out of basic reads.

Abadango and Dee are very good players in their own right and know how to play Pacman and use his tricks to a extremely high level to get what they want. They're outliers and any run of the mill Pac-man is not going to perform at the same level.

I honestly don't understand why this is even a debate, Pac-man has to work much harder than any other characer (maybe other than Duck Hunt?) to get his KOs, it's just how it is. There is no reason not to hold shield against Pac-man's wall. You aren't dying until 120+. Anyone who is experienced in the MU will tell you this, and I'm more than sure some of our resident pac-man mains will agree.

 

[thegrovylekid]

The way I make my lists is based usually on potential and data combined with results. Therefore, a character with excellent data could go up higher [Pikachu] than someone with better results but worse data. Flawed? Maybe. Better than simply ranking characters based on how good I am with them? Definitely.

 

[ARGHETH]

Notable:

Looking In:

Why are there more than eight characters between Pit and Dark Pit?

 

[FullMoon]

While we're posting tier lists, here's mine.

Made this a couple weeks ago. If i were to change anything now I would move dk up to b+, swap ryu and greninja, and move samus up to c- and remove d tier altogether. If anyone has any complaints I can address them or maybe you can change my mind.

Miis are odd because of weight and customs sets and their legality. I assumed medium size and 1111. In this set I'm strongly of the opinion that brawler is the worst mii fighter and gunner and sword are close to each other.

Oh wow Greninja is higher than B for once.