Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[DavemanCozy]

If you're playing as Fox and the opponent keeps shielding? Just keep grabbing them and freaken' throwing them. They're going to climb in percent and they're eventually going to die off of something.

Not disagreeing with Gheb here, shields are actually stupidly good in this game. The above just shows how long the match has to go for Fox when someone keeps shielding. One of the reasons I picked Wario as a secondary.

 

[Gawain]

This post hurts me. It literally hurts me.

Ryu hits you 5 times and then puts you in a legit 50/50 where you could die.

Thinking not getting grabbed by Ryu is just how you get killed. Getting grabbed is a big deal when it only takes 5 or so and you are in death percent.

I just took out Max ketchm at a local the other day. Same dude that took Fatality's CF in a 100 dollar money match. Wanna know where alot of my damage came from?

Granted we both think Ryu stomps CF, but I'm trying to make a point here.

Also...why is Ryu hitting shields with his buttons besides Collarbone Breaker and d-smash in certain match-ups? Thats not what he does.

Collarbone Breaker is just not able to be reacted too consistently. Its frame 13 and you may avoid the second hit but even then the most you will do is get away. You wont punish it unless you have an invincible/super armor up b. It is basically free shield pressure. It only takes one utilt to collarbone breaker to break shield vs the majority of the cast. And yes I broke Max's shield. I break shields pretty consistently in tourney. Certainly more then I ever did with Marth.

Plz keep blocking.

Ryus neutral comes down to one concept. Risk vs Reward. Ryu is ALWAYS favored in ANY neutral scenario. He hits too hard and too fast. And mistakes vs him cost his opponents the match plain and simple. He doesnt need to beat shield.

Shield actually beats itself anyway. When someone shields the best thing to do is actually nothing.

Pretty much agreed, but I think you might be overreaching a bit by saying that Ryu is favored in neutral all the time. I'm not really seeing how he can beat people with faster hitboxes with disjoints for example. He still has to get a punish.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The characters with disjoints are generally weaker then him or get slightly less reward off a poke. Link for example.

Marth is the only character I am legitimately afraid to engage in footsies with.

Tipper is no ****ing joke.

 

[Gawain]

The characters with disjoints are generally weaker then him or get slightly less reward off a poke. Link for example.

Marth is the only character I am legitimately afraid to engage in footsies with.

Tipper is no ****ing joke.

Really? Not even Sheik? I'm not seeing how Ryu wins in neutral vs Sheik or Fox or someone else who is just way faster than he is. I mean sure, if the Fox player screws up then he's gonna eat dirt hard, but he can run circle around him.

 

[Trifroze]

Also...why is Ryu hitting shields with his buttons besides Collarbone Breaker and d-smash in certain match-ups? Thats not what he does.

Collarbone Breaker is just not able to be reacted too consistently. Its frame 13 and you may avoid the second hit but even then the most you will do is get away. You wont punish it unless you have an invincible/super armor up b. It is basically free shield pressure. It only takes one utilt to collarbone breaker to break shield vs the majority of the cast. And yes I broke Max's shield. I break shields pretty consistently in tourney. Certainly more then I ever did with Marth.

Plz keep blocking.

Ryus neutral comes down to one concept. Risk vs Reward. Ryu is ALWAYS favored in ANY neutral scenario. He hits too hard and too fast. And mistakes vs him cost his opponents the match plain and simple. He doesnt need to beat shield.

Shield actually beats itself anyway. When someone shields the best thing to do is actually nothing.

?

That's not how shielding works. You shield when you anticipate that the opponent is going to hit you with something, and when they do in the case of Ryu, he will get punished after his attack is blocked whereas actual top tiers don't. Ryu will take damage for it and the situation will eventually reset, whereas characters like Sheik, Falcon and ZSS can keep throwing moves out until something finally hits and extends into a 30-40% combo. Of course you may get powershielded which requires the opponent to know exactly what you will do and when, but if you tomahawk instead your opponent will get grabbed and receive their 30% that way. Those characters have control because they have safety. Ryu most of the time needs hard reads for his damage and doesn't have reliable ways to consistently inflict 30% damage, the most his backthrow will do along with a couple pummels is about a half of that and then he's back to his mediocre neutral.

Sure, true SRK is a great move and can kill at 70-90% but how are you going to land it without a hard read if your opponent doesn't commit to anything massive? Ryu does not have the higher reward most of the time either unless he's not facing good characters. ZSS can do 50-60% in a single string on fastfallers (nair -> dsmash -> dthrow -> uair -> uair -> up b) and kill them in the process but that doesn't make her neutral great. Falcon can do 30% out of any dthrow he gets before high percents. Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, MK and even Mario can also put down huge damage before the opponent can actually land or do anything again, and all of them have reliable ways to pressure the opponent in neutral without being punished (although Fox and MK probably the least so).

Ryu may be able to punish bad decisions hard because all his moves do like 15-20% damage, but he dies versus safety and mobility.

 

[Mr. Johan]

That certainly helps, but as far as I'm aware the thing doesn't have a hitbox above his feet/waist correct? That's still going to end with him going head first into a fireball. Horizontal control helps, but given Eruption's blast radius, if Robin's far out enough to avoid it I don't think he's grabbing the ledge afterwards. Would mostly mean a larger radius that Robin can start Elwind from during recovery, but he still ultimately has to go to the ledge.


When Ike jumps for Eruption edgeguarding, its really just when the other character is about to reach the same plane as the stage edge because most projectiles are horizontal. Arcfire would have to be cast before that point, at which point Ike is no longer going for Eruption, but probably shielding and then fair. The only projectiles I can really think of where the character can be below the stage edge and hit Ike are the Links' boomerangs, ROB's Laser, and Metal Blade.

I see. Is the Eruption blast radius really that gargantuan horizontally?

Though, if Ike has to shield to get around Arcfire, he loses the time to charge Eruption at his preferred spot since the hitboxes keep going, ending with a bigger hitbox just before it goes out. And if Ike tries to jump too high, then Robin can just maneuver around it.

I just keep imagining 50:50 scenarios in the Robin/Ike exchange in my head when I think about this scenario. Guess I'll just to have to see this in practice.

That said, I do think Robin can drop from the ledge, jump backward, and throw out a discarded tome/Levin Sword at a charging Ike if he has one on hand. Robin can immediately catch a Thunder, Arcfire, or Levin Sword in the air if he Z-catches just as the item comes out, as long as Robin is moving in the opposite direction of that item. Won't come up often, but it's something to keep in mind.

is that Elwind change confirmed? This is the first I've heard of it. Hadn't even noticed it myself.

You have to do the horizontal shifts manually.

How viable is Elwind as an edgeguarding tool? I recall trying to hit with the spike hitbox right off the ledge. It rarely worked, but it could've been practiced. Or maybe run off the ledge and reverse Elwind so that it stage spikes? Low risk edgeguards are a powerful tool at this point in time.

Elwind spiking is always fun, but it's only really going to come up as an option if the opponent has no other option than to recover with their UpB.

The blades themselves can harass some of the slower/streamlined recoverers like Luigi, DDD, and Falcon, and that's done to force them to give up their jumps, making their second attempt to get back to the stage a lot harder to mixup, and such easier to predict.

Stage spiking with them is rare, since the stage ledges tend to be far enough away from the stage edges to where teching is feasible. Though, Omega Princess Peach's castle deserves special notice for having the ledges so close spatially to the edges that Robin can Elwind on stage, and the cutter is large enough to cover that entire edge length. If the opponent is hugging that edge at that moment, the cutter converts into that untechable stage spike scenario brought up a little while ago.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Really? Not even Sheik? I'm not seeing how Ryu wins in neutral vs Sheik or Fox or someone else who is just way faster than he is. I mean sure, if the Fox player screws up then he's gonna eat dirt hard, but he can run circle around him.

Idk. Did fine vs False last time we played in tourney. He beat me but barely and due to my error.

The way footsies work is really about feel just as much as mobility. Ryu moves slower then them but he doesnt attack slower and with better hitboxes and damage too. So Sheik is safer but Ryus incentive to push a button is still there because he is rewarded.

@ Trifroze

Yes you block in anticipation of an attack. Ryu can do the same. Who is rewarded more for a block? Ryu or his opponent? Generally Ryu. Ryu does not have trouble breaking 30%. Two fairs will do just that and that combos. Also is that an argument for bad damage? CF generally doesnt break 25% and I wouldnt call his damage bad.

But back to blocking. Yes sitting in shield is bad, but thats how you made it sound. This is where yomi comes in. This is where reads come in. But thats a player thing. If you are talking raw shield pressure that is simply a character trait. Who can safely hit a shield vs who can't. CF has more ways to do that then pretty much everyone that doesnt have a projectile. Thats his neutral. That is generally NOT Ryus neutral or what he wants to do. How he functions in neutral is different then basically everyone else. This is a copy paste from the Ryu forums I made.

"That space he functions so strongly in is about 3 to 4 character lengths distance from his opponent. This mid range is optimal due to his good dash grab. That is what keeps his mid range game threatening.

This is the range you want. This is where the magic happens. The options available to Ryu are as follows.

Hadouken
Shakunetsu Hadouken
SH Hadouken/Shakunetsu Hadouken
Dash grab
SH FADC for movement/baiting
Empty SHFF for spacing/baiting/mind games
SHFF Bair
Dash Attack
Light Tatsu
Walk up/SH towards opponent then hard jab, hard utilt, or d-smash

These are your main options. Empty SH is VITAL for spacing adjustments and baiting an action so you can respond. Get used to doing SH then fast fall. FADC movement keeps your opponent on their toes. Hadouken options are strong pokes that keep your opponent honest and from stupidly rushing in. An easy counter to hadouken is dash shield. Make them regret that choice by grabbing them or roll behind utilt to collarbone breaker.

Dash attack is just there as a surprise burst attack option. Light Tatsu is super good. Can beat basically anything. Unsafe but very dominant in footsies when you know your opponent wants to press something. Hard jab and hard utilt are very strong anti SH tools. They shut down aerial approaches and make the opponent pause giving Ryu time to establish mid range control. D-smash is THE whiff punisher. Easy 16% if your opponent presses a button at a bad time.

SHFF bair is Ryus main shield pressure option. This is the move you throw out when you are not sure what to do, but you want something pretty safe to rely on.

Ryus dash grab is what ties it all together. He has one of the best dash grabs in the game in terms of distance. When done at the end of his initial dash animation it, it can cover that 4 character length distance. This is the main reason this range is strong for Ryu. Opponents cant just sit in shield vs him. Yeah, he has no grab combos but it only takes a few throws and some pummels to put his opponent into kill percent. So dont stress not having grab combos. He doesnt need them. his throws give him damage and allow him to get easy traps AND reset to his optimal spacing.

Also for when an opponent tries to take that space or rushdown aggressively. SH or even full jump fast fall Fair is great and leads to combos. SH Nair will shut down dash grab attempts and can lead to combos or easy grabs. And again remember Ryus anti air pokes."



The best way I can describe Ryus neutral is...Anti-meta.

 

[Gawain]

Idk. Did fine vs False last time we played in tourney. He beat me but barely and due to my error.

The way footsies work is really about feel just as much as mobility. Ryu moves slower then them but he doesnt attack slower and with better hitboxes and damage too. So Sheik is safer but Ryus incentive to push a button is still there because he is rewarded.

@ Trifroze

Yes you block in anticipation of an attack. Ryu can do the same. Who is rewarded more for a block? Ryu or his opponent? Generally Ryu. Ryu does not have trouble breaking 30%. Two fairs will do just that and that combos. Also is that an argument for bad damage? CF generally doesnt break 25% and I wouldnt call his damage bad.

But back to blocking. Yes sitting in shield is bad, but thats how you made it sound. This is where yomi comes in. This is where reads come in. But thats a player thing. If you are talking raw shield pressure that is simply a character trait. Who can safely hit a shield vs who can't. CF has more ways to do that then pretty much everyone that doesnt have a projectile. Thats his neutral. That is generally NOT Ryus neutral or what he wants to do. How he functions in neutral is different then basically everyone else. This is a copy paste from the Ryu forums I made.

"That space he functions so strongly in is about 3 to 4 character lengths distance from his opponent. This mid range is optimal due to his good dash grab. That is what keeps his mid range game threatening.

This is the range you want. This is where the magic happens. The options available to Ryu are as follows.

Hadouken
Shakunetsu Hadouken
SH Hadouken/Shakunetsu Hadouken
Dash grab
SH FADC for movement/baiting
Empty SHFF for spacing/baiting/mind games
SHFF Bair
Dash Attack
Light Tatsu
Walk up/SH towards opponent then hard jab, hard utilt, or d-smash

These are your main options. Empty SH is VITAL for spacing adjustments and baiting an action so you can respond. Get used to doing SH then fast fall. FADC movement keeps your opponent on their toes. Hadouken options are strong pokes that keep your opponent honest and from stupidly rushing in. An easy counter to hadouken is dash shield. Make them regret that choice by grabbing them or roll behind utilt to collarbone breaker.

Dash attack is just there as a surprise burst attack option. Light Tatsu is super good. Can beat basically anything. Unsafe but very dominant in footsies when you know your opponent wants to press something. Hard jab and hard utilt are very strong anti SH tools. They shut down aerial approaches and make the opponent pause giving Ryu time to establish mid range control. D-smash is THE whiff punisher. Easy 16% if your opponent presses a button at a bad time.

SHFF bair is Ryus main shield pressure option. This is the move you throw out when you are not sure what to do, but you want something pretty safe to rely on.

Ryus dash grab is what ties it all together. He has one of the best dash grabs in the game in terms of distance. When done at the end of his initial dash animation it, it can cover that 4 character length distance. This is the main reason this range is strong for Ryu. Opponents cant just sit in shield vs him. Yeah, he has no grab combos but it only takes a few throws and some pummels to put his opponent into kill percent. So dont stress not having grab combos. He doesnt need them. his throws give him damage and allow him to get easy traps AND reset to his optimal spacing.

Also for when an opponent tries to take that space or rushdown aggressively. SH or even full jump fast fall Fair is great and leads to combos. SH Nair will shut down dash grab attempts and can lead to combos or easy grabs. And again remember Ryus anti air pokes."



The best way I can describe Ryus neutral is...Anti-meta.

This is a great info dump on Ryu. Do you have any videos of your tournament matches uploaded somewhere? I would like to see.

Though, I wouldn't say Falcons ability to hit a shield is that amazing. Even without needles Sheik does this way better than Falcon. Same thing with a lot of the top tiers really. Falcon really only has grab, bair, and carefully spaced up airs and nair(sometimes). His tilts are dumb pokes imo, its almost always better just to do something different. While the amount of things he's gonna do to your shield is limited, they're really good. So a little straightforward and simple to understand what's coming, but still tough to beat.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I see. Is the Eruption blast radius really that gargantuan horizontally?

Though, if Ike has to shield to get around Arcfire, he loses the time to charge Eruption at his preferred spot since the hitboxes keep going, ending with a bigger hitbox just before it goes out. And if Ike tries to jump too high, then Robin can just maneuver around it.

I just keep imagining 50:50 scenarios in the Robin/Ike exchange in my head when I think about this scenario. Guess I'll just to have to see this in practice.

That said, I do think Robin can drop from the ledge, jump backward, and throw out a discarded tome/Levin Sword at a charging Ike if he has one on hand. Robin can immediately catch a Thunder, Arcfire, or Levin Sword in the air if he Z-catches just as the item comes out, as long as Robin is moving in the opposite direction of that item. Won't come up often, but it's something to keep in mind.

That part in bold.

Why on earth is Ike still there if Robin has successfully reached the ledge? That means Eruption failed and Ike is no longer trying to use Eruption at all.

Maybe I need to explain this a bit better: Ike is not going to use Eruption if his opponent can just jump back onto the stage, or is fairly close to the stage already in general. At that point he's looking more at a walk-off aerial or positioning himself to punish the get up (reversed utilt covers every option that isn't dropping away from the ledge for example). He's only going to use Eruption if he's going to have enough time to get a charge on it. If his charge time was disrupted by having to shield arcfire, he's no longer going to attempt Eruption. If arcfire landed on stage, Robin is too close to try it afterwards. He's going for other options now.

Maneuvering around an Ike jumping in the air charging Eruption is not a good idea (not sure why that situation would happen but lets roll with it for now). The reason why it works so well as an edgeguarding tool is because it hits fairly far down below him. For horizontal range... take a battlefield platform. Put the middle of it right where Ike stabs down with the sword. That's a good rough estimate. The vertical range is low enough that it can hit people before they enter magical ledge snapping range (which is fairly far if you think about it), and the high point goes all the way up to the "mushroom cloud" of the fire. Its not a move where some of the fire is a phantom hitbox, its disjointed beyond the fire itself.

That's why its such a good edgeguarding tool. Massive hitbox, lingering frames that cover the ledgesnap spot perfectly to hit that 1-2 frame window where everyone can be hit, and has super armour on it. And also apparently break shields if you managed to screw up your timing but get lucky afterwards.

 

[Ffamran]

This is a great info dump on Ryu. Do you have any videos of your tournament matches uploaded somewhere? I would like to see.

Don't watch anything with Keitaro if you don't like random stages with stupid stuff; Keitaro loves stupid stuff.

Always uploaded during and after tournaments: https://www.youtube.com/user/Jaxelrod/videos. This was Emblem Lord's Ryu vs. False's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPCSUrijrHg.

 

[Mr. Johan]

That part in bold.

Why on earth is Ike still there if Robin has successfully reached the ledge? That means Eruption failed and Ike is no longer trying to use Eruption at all.

My fault for not elaborating on that. I was still thinking of those traps Ike has with Eruption that the video linked last night demonstrated: The ledge jump, the getup attack, the ledge roll, all covered by Eruption regardless of super armor as long as the timing is down.

That's some good info on the mechanics of Eruption though, so thanks a bunch for the elaboration.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

My fault for not elaborating on that. I was still thinking of those traps Ike has with Eruption that the video linked last night demonstrated: The ledge jump, the getup attack, the ledge roll, all covered by Eruption regardless of super armor as long as the timing is down.

That's some good info on the mechanics of Eruption though, so thanks a bunch for the elaboration.

Ah.

Ya, Eruption does cover those options as well, but if you're going for that you aren't going for the actual ledgeguard: you're going for the ledge punish. Going for the ledgeguard is less of a gamble timing wise against most characters.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Don't watch anything with Keitaro if you don't like random stages with stupid stuff; Keitaro loves stupid stuff.

Always uploaded during and after tournaments: https://www.youtube.com/user/Jaxelrod/videos. This was Emblem Lord's Ryu vs. False's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPCSUrijrHg.

Stop stalking me



I gotta get better with those utilt and dair set-ups.

Dammit I suck.

 

[Trifroze]

Regarding Ryu, anti-meta doesn't really cut it for me at this point, but I'm not going to deny the chance that Ryu could prove out to be a top 10 character eventually although I'd fairly positively lock him towards the bottom of that. Back when he came out many people including myself thought he'd have a shot at being the best in the game based on his damage and frame data, but right now the things that we do know about the character don't exactly point to an amazing neutral game (which is the subject here). Ryu can hit most characters' shields with very well delayed and spaced back airs, and I believe there are some characters who can't punish fair either, neither move just really leads to anything from that range.

So a little straightforward and simple to understand what's coming, but still tough to beat.

Describes Falcon's neutral pretty perfectly, so much so that I had to say it. I guess that essentially means he partially "ignores" neutral like Sonic was at least supposed to in the beginning, although Greninja seems to do this a little bit too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Regarding Ryu, anti-meta doesn't really cut it for me at this point, but I'm not going to deny the chance that Ryu could prove out to be a top 10 character eventually although I'd fairly positively lock him towards the bottom of that. Back when he came out many people including myself thought he'd have a shot at being the best in the game based on his damage and frame data, but right now the things that we do know about the character don't exactly point to an amazing neutral game (which is the subject here). Ryu can hit most characters' shields with very well delayed and spaced back airs, and I believe there are some characters who can't punish fair either, neither move just really leads to anything from that range.



Describes Falcon's neutral pretty perfectly, so much so that I had to say it. I guess that essentially means he partially "ignores" neutral like Sonic was at least supposed to in the beginning, although Greninja seems to do this a little bit too.

I never once thought he was top tier.

Like..ever.

To me he reminds me of Sagat in Vanilla SFIV.

A character that should lose to several characters in terms of raw options and mobility, but his burst damage, comeback factor and reward for a guess in neutral is so skewed that it doesnt actually matter all that much.

He's prolly hanging around high tier. He just has the tools to make everyone respect him.

 

[Ffamran]

Stop stalking me



I gotta get better with those utilt and dair set-ups.

Dammit I suck.

Get faster at replying.

Still, I love how they're able to upload matches while they stream. Being able to immediately study your and others play is fantastic. Sure, having them uploaded within a day or even a week is fine, but sometimes, you have stuff where it's been uploaded months later... That's not helpful when patches exist, so you can't study 100% since some things don't work like they used to. Can you study through watching archived streams? Yes, but at the same time, it's kind of a hassle to not be able to just have your own sets to study when you want.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean..if anyone wants to watch those and give me some helpful advice that would be awesome. I did worse vs NAKAT but that wasnt really Mario. That was NAKAT. He didnt do any crazy Mario type stuff really.

 

[Gawain]

Don't watch anything with Keitaro if you don't like random stages with stupid stuff; Keitaro loves stupid stuff.

Always uploaded during and after tournaments: https://www.youtube.com/user/Jaxelrod/videos. This was Emblem Lord's Ryu vs. False's Sheik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPCSUrijrHg.

Thanks for the link. Is downsmash really safe on shield? If so I find that pretty hilarious.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Its safish, but I pressed it mostly when I thought she would press something vs me or try to move from her shield. Sheik can punish its just you gotta be quick.

CF can dash grab I know that for sure.

 

[LightLV]

"Yoshi is the worst character in the game." ...I'm not usually one to say or do this, but I stopped reading there. Are you seriously stating that Yoshi is worse than Zelda, Samus, and Palutena?

Why do people keep lumping Palutena with Zelda and Samus. They aren't anywhere close to eachother.

I mean..if anyone wants to watch those and give me some helpful advice that would be awesome. I did worse vs NAKAT but that wasnt really Mario. That was NAKAT. He didnt do any crazy Mario type stuff really.

Looks like False was trying to play some type of way, started to get bodied, and then decided he wasn't having any of that from Ryu, and did Shiek things, and then you lost.

Ryu certainly does hit hard though. If he could be played somewhat similar to how he does in SF, where you can counter aerials with anti-air ground normals (instead of shield, focus or srk), then i think he could contend with some characters alot easier. He certainly has powerful options avaliable to him, but like everyone else, his issue seems to be safety.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Sheik things = Run away, needle and wait for an opportunity because she cannot **** with Ryus buttons in any way, shape or form then I agree.

 

[LightLV]

If Sheik things = Run away, needle and wait for an opportunity because she cannot **** with Ryus buttons in any way, shape or form then I agree.

Sheik things = do what i want because your frame data does not allow you to do **** about it. Actually i was surprised at the lack of needles she was throwing at you, and i think one of the commentators mentioned that as well.

And speaking of buttons, you traded alot between aerials in the first match which probably forced her to respect your options a bit more. But I think by the second match she was getting away with her antics uncontested way too often to fear them.

My scrub advice for your ryu would be to mash like hell during combos if you think they're gonna try you. Works for Luigi.

I also saw your Nair get punished on-hit, which made my eyes go north quite hard. So maybe only do it if it's gonna tumble them...

Edit:

Actually no mash it out baby, the best part of heavyweight is rrraageeeee

 

[PUK]

Sheik things = do what i want because your frame data does not allow you to do **** about it. Actually i was surprised at the lack of needles she was throwing at you, and i think one of the commentators mentioned that as well.

And speaking of buttons, you traded alot between aerials in the first match which probably forced her to respect your options a bit more. But I think by the second match she was getting away with her antics uncontested way too often to fear them.

My scrub advice for your ryu would be to mash like hell during combos if you think they're gonna try you. Works for Luigi.

I also saw your Nair get punished on-hit, which made my eyes go north quite hard. So maybe only do it if it's gonna tumble them...

Edit:

Actually no mash it out baby, the best part of heavyweight is rrraageeeee

But rage is not a reason to eat everything. The more you favorably trade the better.

 

[Djent]

should be numerically ranked above /, but I don't think there's much of a practical difference in terms of their viability.

Palu can win at the local level and even place well at regionals in the hands of talented players, but I don't think she has what it takes to win a major. I don't know nearly as much about Samus/Zelda but results-wise at least they seem to be in the same predicament.

This is also why I think that little good comes of arranging the bottom portions of the tier list (at least when it comes to imbalanced games such as this one). It's basically just determining who gets fixed next patch vs. 2-3 patches from now, and even then only if you're Japanese.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I mean..if anyone wants to watch those and give me some helpful advice that would be awesome. I did worse vs NAKAT but that wasnt really Mario. That was NAKAT. He didnt do any crazy Mario type stuff really.

I think you go for throw punishes too much. I also think you played too risky with a lead. Feel like you rely on roll dtilt as a ledge trap too much.

 

[Routa]

So Esam made a video where he talks about bottom 10 in his opinion.

http://youtu.be/FWXoyCl-XJg
^ if you are interested.

So... Opinions?

 

[FullMoon]

Shulk and Bowser Jr were the only ones that were really all that surprising.

 

[PUK]

I personnally like esam's opinion more than zero's. Not that i don't disagree with him, but his explanations make sense and it looks like he really think about it.
Lucina is not bottom 10 anymore, the buffs she receive fix a lot of her issues.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So Esam made a video where he talks about bottom 10 in his opinion.

http://youtu.be/FWXoyCl-XJg
^ if you are interested.

So... Opinions?

Can you post the list for those of us who don't have the ability to sit around for 20 minutes to hear who he thinks is bad.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Can you post the list for those of us who don't have the ability to sit around for 20 minutes to hear who he thinks is bad.

In order from left to right.

 

[Ffamran]

Can you post the list for those of us who don't have the ability to sit around for 20 minutes to hear who he thinks is bad.

You can still skip around and look at the portraits. ESAM notes that the top 5ish of bottom 10 are still viable, but it's rough for them. The bottom 5 are just dead to him in viability. He said something like 50 of the 55 are viable.

Spoiler: ESAM's tier list of 1.1.0

Top Tier
1. Sheik
2. Pikachu. Bias.
3. Luigi
4. Fox
5. Rosalina & Luma
6. Ness
7. Yoshi
8. ZSS
9. Sonic
10. Mario

High Tier
11. Meta Knight
12. ROB
13. Captain Falcon
14. Villager
15. The Pits
16. Wario
17. Robin
18. Diddy Kong
19. Lucario
20. Ike

Nobody Gives a Damn Tier
21-44. Too murky to deal with according to ESAM.

Low Tier
45. Bowser Jr.
46. Palutena
47. Duck Hunt
48. Shulk
49. Little Mac
50. King Dedede
51. Lucina
52. Mewtwo
53. Jigglypuff
54. Dr. Mario
55. Zelda

I'll edit in the 1-20 he made as well.

 

[Djent]

It's an acceptable bottom 10 11

 

[Sir Bubbles]

In order from left to right.

Jigglypuff is supposed to be #11.

 

[Kresent]

I mean..if anyone wants to watch those and give me some helpful advice that would be awesome. I did worse vs NAKAT but that wasnt really Mario. That was NAKAT. He didnt do any crazy Mario type stuff really.

Hey, long time lurker but I noticed you don't use FADC to land or recover. If you're going to recover low anyway, you can mix up air dodge with FADC. Your last stock was because of an air dodge read. If you had starting charging Focus Attack, Sheik would have had to back off after the whiffed F-Air because you can just dash cancel during the hit stop of Bouncing Fish or a second F-air

Also if you're launched too high for the opponent to hit you but you see that they commit to a jump anyway, FADC will let you mix up your landing more without having to commit to your jump or Tatsu.

Also I see you trying to get N-Airs during combos, but I think you should have mashed out F-Air more since Sheik's F-Air outranges Ryu's F-Air

My Ryu isnt anything special so if I'm wrong, don't hesitate to tell me.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Esam's bottom 10 is pretty accuarte, although i think he might be underrating mac, lucina and jr. Surprised not to see samus there, however.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Esam's bottom 10 is pretty accuarte, although i think he might be underrating mac, lucina and jr. Surprised not to see samus there, however.

He plays/played her himself, I guess that's pushing her in his eyes.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

In order from left to right.

Thanks can't agree with bowser jr or doc being that low same with lil mac.

 

[LightLV]

should be numerically ranked above /, but I don't think there's much of a practical difference in terms of their viability.

Palu can win at the local level and even place well at regionals in the hands of talented players, but I don't think she has what it takes to win a major. I don't know nearly as much about Samus/Zelda but results-wise at least they seem to be in the same predicament.

This is also why I think that little good comes of arranging the bottom portions of the tier list (at least when it comes to imbalanced games such as this one). It's basically just determining who gets fixed next patch vs. 2-3 patches from now, and even then only if you're Japanese.

Decent poke/grab game, shes fast as ****, 2 invincible (practical) attacks, good aerials, best jab in the game (srs), very mobile.

No, she likely isn't winning any major anytime soon, but lets be honest, the majority of characters are in that position. But I can't see a good samus/zelda putting up a fight against a good palu with the tools she has, i just don't.


It's kind of like people still saying Lucina is bad for some reason. Uh, you compare her to ZSS or someone, yeah she's bad. But Lucina is more than capable of exposing players who are considered A-tier, especially if you're one who subscribes that Marth is able to as well, tipper be dammed, getting hit is getting hit.

And he put Lucina in a bottom 10 with Samus nowhere in sight? Lol, alright. Good player or no, i'm going to need to start seeing Samus put in some serious work for that list to mean anything.

 

[Kaladin]

Decent poke/grab game, shes fast as ****, 2 invincible (practical) attacks, good aerials, best jab in the game (srs), very mobile.

No, she likely isn't winning any major anytime soon, but lets be honest, the majority of characters are in that position. But I can't see a good samus/zelda putting up a fight against a good palu with the tools she has, i just don't.


It's kind of like people still saying Lucina is bad for some reason. Uh, you compare her to ZSS or someone, yeah she's bad. But Lucina is more than capable of exposing players who are considered A-tier, especially if you're one who subscribes that Marth is able to as well, tipper be dammed, getting hit is getting hit.

And he put Lucina in a bottom 10 with Samus nowhere in sight? Lol, alright. Good player or no, i'm going to need to start seeing Samus put in some serious work for that list to mean anything.

Best jab? Could you elaborate? It's frame 8. I know it's disjointed and has range, but wouldn't Mac, or Falcon, or Lucas be better?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Decent poke/grab game, shes fast as ****, 2 invincible (practical) attacks, good aerials, best jab in the game (srs), very mobile.

No, she likely isn't winning any major anytime soon, but lets be honest, the majority of characters are in that position. But I can't see a good samus/zelda putting up a fight against a good palu with the tools she has, i just don't.


It's kind of like people still saying Lucina is bad for some reason. Uh, you compare her to ZSS or someone, yeah she's bad. But Lucina is more than capable of exposing players who are considered A-tier, especially if you're one who subscribes that Marth is able to as well, tipper be dammed, getting hit is getting hit.

And he put Lucina in a bottom 10 with Samus nowhere in sight? Lol, alright. Good player or no, i'm going to need to start seeing Samus put in some serious work for that list to mean anything.

Her fastest ground normal is 8 frames. How is that as you put it "a decent poke game"?