Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Sir Tundra]

Ever since the game came out the community continued to amaze me with how everyone seemed to forget Brawl Diddy. In this game, where almost nothing is OP, Brawl Diddy would have been SSSS tier.

Where almost nothing's op aye?

Tell me my dear watson have you ever heard of early 3DS days ?

 

[Browny]

Do I even have to mention how large Ragnell is? Second largest disjoint in the game.

Post proof plz, also what is #1?

Not calling you out or anything, I just want to see how it was measured. I've been doing a lot of testing lately trying to find the largest disjoint in the game and have a few contenders but not sure who takes the #1 spot.

Also brawl diddy had a bad recovery and you could SDI out of his f/usmash. He got a major survivability + kill power boost in this game.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Post proof plz, also what is #1?

Not calling you out or anything, I just want to see how it was measured. I've been doing a lot of testing lately trying to find the largest disjoint in the game and have a few contenders but not sure who takes the #1 spot.

Also brawl diddy had a bad recovery and you could SDI out of his f/usmash. He got a major survivability + kill power boost in this game.

Probably the Monado, if I had to guess.

EDIT: Disregarding projectiles and Luma in general since they can hit basically anywhere.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Adding to what 9ball said, Ike is REALLY good in doubles. Fair to fair, nair to fair, smash attacks, counter, and kill tilts are way more easy to throw out. His hit boxes are big, he deals lots of damage, and kills. He's got a partner to get him out of combos/ juggles, doesn't need to edge guard, and his recovery can be saved. His frame data isn't Luigi/ Sheik/ Kirby speed, but he's good. (and his customs are good).

Game and Watch, Ike, Mario, Falcon, Sheik... Who else is great in doubles? The top 15 threats list is probably a bit different.

 

[Browny]

Probably the Monado, if I had to guess.

EDIT: Disregarding projectiles and Luma in general since they can hit basically anywhere.

wow im an idiot of course its the monado lol

I'm still interested to find the second though.

I've pretty much concluded that Mewtwos tail has a larger disjoint than marth (on tail attacks, of course) so im going to test it vs the remaining sword users.

 

[Mario766]

wow im an idiot of course its the monado lol

I'm still interested to find the second though.

I've pretty much concluded that Mewtwos tail has a larger disjoint than marth (on tail attacks, of course) so im going to test it vs the remaining sword users.

Is Mewtwo's tail fully disjointed anyways? I haven't done testing.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Adding to what 9ball said, Ike is REALLY good in doubles. Fair to fair, nair to fair, smash attacks, counter, and kill tilts are way more easy to throw out. His hit boxes are big, he deals lots of damage, and kills. He's got a partner to get him out of combos/ juggles, doesn't need to edge guard, and his recovery can be saved. His frame data isn't Luigi/ Sheik/ Kirby speed, but he's good. (and his customs are good).

Game and Watch, Ike, Mario, Falcon, Sheik... Who else is great in doubles? The top 15 threats list is probably a bit different.

Let's not forget how his Fthrow and Bthrow set up literally everything for your partner. Ike is a force to be truffled with.

 

[Nobie]

I've been having a thought about Mewtwo lately, and it relates to something I love to play but few people might have experience with: mahjong. I'm going to try and explain though.

Mahjong is a game where you gradually build a hand towards victory. As you progress your hand, you get closer and closer to taking a round, but mahjong is also a game where you have to know when to fold and when to take risks. A classic scenario is to be one tile away from winning and have the most amazing hand, but then you get greedy and fail to see that your opponent laid out a trap or that you were too by the potential win that you don't notice something obvious.

I feel like Mewtwo is a similar character. You have to be willing to gamble a bit, but you also have to be aware of how quickly the tables can turn, and even when you feel you just need that one up throw to finish the job, you have to know when to just straight up disengage with the enemy. Mewtwo 's mobility stats aren't meant for weaving, so when you attack you have to ATTACK and when you run you have to get the hell out of dodge.

 

[Browny]

Is Mewtwo's tail fully disjointed anyways? I haven't done testing.

I've done a bunch of testing over the last few days and can confirm that around 2/5ths of Mewtwos tail is disjointed

http://i.imgur.com/9pHb1bm.png
http://i.imgur.com/JMdumps.png

Which is actually a larger disjoint than marths sword on attacks tested so far. I want to test it vs Ike now.

- EDIT

Ikes is definitely bigger.

Let's not forget how his Fthrow and Bthrow set up literally everything for your partner. Ike is a force to be truffled with.

lmao youve got it wrong twice there. Its 'trifled' and the saying is 'X is a force not to be trifled with'

 

[RayNoire]

Is Mewtwo's tail fully disjointed anyways? I haven't done testing.

Nope. Apparently it's got some disjoint at the tip, but it still trades with a lot of things (especially since you're never really aiming to hit with the tip).

I've been having a thought about Mewtwo lately, and it relates to something I love to play but few people might have experience with: mahjong. I'm going to try and explain though.

Mahjong is a game where you gradually build a hand towards victory. As you progress your hand, you get closer and closer to taking a round, but mahjong is also a game where you have to know when to fold and when to take risks. A classic scenario is to be one tile away from winning and have the most amazing hand, but then you get greedy and fail to see that your opponent laid out a trap or that you were too by the potential win that you don't notice something obvious.

I feel like Mewtwo is a similar character. You have to be willing to gamble a bit, but you also have to be aware of how quickly the tables can turn, and even when you feel you just need that one up throw to finish the job, you have to know when to just straight up disengage with the enemy. Mewtwo 's mobility stats aren't meant for weaving, so when you attack you have to ATTACK and when you run you have to get the hell out of dodge.

That's pretty much accurate. Mewtwo players have to be able to flip between extreme defensiveness and extreme aggressiveness, and know exactly when to do so.

It's not really that different from any other character with a strong advantage state; the only difference is the amount of ****ed you'll be if you over/underextend--and Mewtwo gets pretty ****ed.

 

[RonNewcomb]

4/5/7/7 (jab, ftilt, utilt, ftilt) are the frames in which his ground moves come out, while none of his aerials go over frame 9. Including a frame 3 combo breaking nair and frame 1 trampoline.

Admittedly, I should have said "poor CQC" rather than slow. A 4f jab still puts Pac in the bottom half of the cast, beneath the 4f Fire Emblem dudes, and those with a 5f jab include Marthcina, DK, and 2 Pits who have significant range and/or disjoint over Pac. My point is, the list of people Pac can out-box is both small and on par with Link's own list, albeit with slightly different cast members due to the speed-for-range tradeoff.

Firstly, Pac-Man doesn't have a default game plan. His tools are used to adapt to the situation. His game plan depends on what opponent he fights.

Right, right. Unlike the cast of rushdown, zoners, and footsie-players, Pac's style is "creative" which trumps all others and gives him Sheik's MU spread. The next 2 sentences are true for everybody in every fighting game. Let's return to specifics.

a hydrant can be used as a wall to protect us from rush down

I can substitute any projectile save Fox's for hydrant in that sentence with no loss of truth.

or a giant hitbox that we can run behind to protect us from projectile spam.

"Advancing while protected from projectiles" is Hylian Shield

Pac-Man can create a minefield for opponents to get through, or a forward moving wave of projectiles to safely run behind and combo off of.

And Link doesn't??

He doesn't automatically lose to rush down because of one important tool: trampoline. With this, pacman can say nope to any ground approach and completely change the way his opponent plays nuetral. The likes of Fox, Captain falcon, Mario, luigi, diddy, and others lose their dash grab and must find a way to safely fight around it.

So this is interesting: while I believe that tramp is the [non-damaging] obstacle you say it is, and presuming it's set at a height that actually does screw with the ever-popular short-hop approaches, why did Abadango, upon facing 2 different Sonics at EVO, immediately and both times switch away from Pac? You don't switch away from your main for even MUs...

Meanwhile, pac-man can sit on the other side of it and invincible utilt through their landings

If your goal is to differentiate Pac from Link, talking about awesome disjointed utilts isn't helping your case.

He doesn't auto lose to better camping because he can shift his plan to revolve around breaking through the wall. Running behind item tossed melons/Galaxians/Fair launched hydrants to get in is one way.

So what part of my "both want to camp except when outclassed by faster camping" does this disagree with? I never said auto-lose; that's your phrasing, which you've used twice. I said they both prefer going in for those cases, and do OK when they do so.

Incorrect again, my friend. Our frame 3 nair is used as both a combo breaker and extender. It's even a kill move. I swear, people forget just how fast it is. I hear all this praise over luigi and mario's frame 3 Nairs, but pacman's is always ignored. Funny how people say that lack of knowledge is scary, when nearly everyone will look at pacman, take him at face value, and miss everything important behind the scenes (not you specifically, more like, most people here)

You got me on the nair. But in my defense, I see Abadango's nair used as a GTFO me move, and I see *everyone* using hydrant as the anti-combo move, not nair. (Link's nair can also kill: Sakurai angle.) I'll go stand in the penalty box with everyone else about my lack of Pacman's nair.

Our aggression is nowhere near similar to
the *sluggish aggression* that link has. Ours is more like a wall flying at you with us running in front or behind it. Like I said before, a hydrant can be used to make our approach safe. Once we get in though, frame 5 fairs and frame 3 nair BnB combos hurt. Including galaxian kill combos, but that's another story.

Good sir, Link invented projectile-assisted rushdown: frame 1 bomb toss.

I'm guessing you haven't heard of "pellet healing". Rosa is forced to rush us down, or we heal off of her GP.

Talk to me about gimmicks that force one or two cast members to approach when they normally don't have to and I'll talk to you about space animals and Hylian Shields.

Look, I apologize if I tweaked all the Pac mains by comparing his overall strategy to the low-tier hero of time (my god he didn't even know about the 3f nair!) but if you want to disagree then I might suggest looking at the differences in escaping disadvantage or something, which will help Pac avoid settling into Link-tier moreso that claiming Pac has a magical strategy outside the rushdown/footsie/zoner triad.

 

[DanGR]

Post proof plz, also what is #1?

Not calling you out or anything, I just want to see how it was measured. I've been doing a lot of testing lately trying to find the largest disjoint in the game and have a few contenders but not sure who takes the #1 spot.

Also brawl diddy had a bad recovery and you could SDI out of his f/usmash. He got a major survivability + kill power boost in this game.

Largest disjoint (as measured by distance away from the character) is probably Rosalina RAR'd b-air.

edit: nvm probably Lucario side-b with aura.

 

[Nu~]

Right, right. Unlike the cast of rushdown, zoners, and footsie-players, Pac's style is "creative" which trumps all others and gives him Sheik's MU spread. The next 2 sentences are true for everybody in every fighting game. Let's return to specifics.

I really want to know where this "Pac-Man has shiek's matchup spread" came from. This same baseless argument is brought up every time I speak in this thread. I say something good about Pac-Man's matchups and then people assumes that I mean that Pac-Man is some sort of god. We still lose to people like shiek, sonic, and rosa. We just have no hard counters.

And now I wait for someone else to compare Pac-Man to brawl meta knight.

What I mean by having no default style is that it flows across all three of the normal styles. It isn't an outlier, it's a combination.

I can substitute any projectile save Fox's for hydrant in that sentence with no loss of truth.

Ok...? I never said it was a unique aspect from link. I was demonstrating how it can be used for multiple purposes. It's unique in that it serves multiple purposes in one package while link has to choose.

So this is interesting: while I believe that tramp is the [non-damaging] obstacle you say it is, and presuming it's set at a height that actually does screw with the ever-popular short-hop approaches, why did Abadango, upon facing 2 different Sonics at EVO, immediately and both times switch away from Pac? You don't switch away from your main for even MUs...

Never said it was even. Pacman can hide behind the trampoline, but sonic has the upper hand if he gains the percentage advantage first. That would force us to play honestly against him, which is difficult. It's a -1

If your goal is to differentiate Pac from Link, talking about awesome disjointed utilts isn't helping your case.

I'm not making a move comparison here, I'm making a comparison between how well Pac-Man can handle rush down as opposed to link. The trampoline is the reason why the disjointed uair is more significant.
Why did you pull this out of context?

So what part of my "both want to camp except when outclassed by faster camping" does this disagree with? I never said auto-lose; that's your phrasing, which you've used twice. I said they both prefer going in for those cases, and do OK when they do so.

Then I missed your point. I thought you meant that the character loses to faster camping.

You got me on the nair. But in my defense, I see Abadango's nair used as a GTFO me move, and I see *everyone* using hydrant as the anti-combo move, not nair. (Link's nair can also kill: Sakurai angle.) I'll go stand in the penalty box with everyone else about my lack of Pacman's nair.

I'll just ignore the repeated sarcasm over Pac-Man's nair and get into the less petty stuff. I failed to make a proper argument against the differences in link and Pac-Man, but what you missed for the most part was the fact that this was supposed to be a comparison between the differences in their disadvantages, rather than their game plan as a whole. Pac-Man is the more cohesive character because he has better ways to enforce whatever he chooses to do. Trampoline to assist his camping by making it a lot less vulnerable to power shielding and forcing opponents to approach him from a disadvantaged state, while the hydrant makes his camp game and approach game stronger by both beating out projectiles and threatening the opponent with a projectile of his own. Don't compare this to hylian shield because A.) hylian shield can't hurt the opponent and B.) the opponent isn't forced to evade when you slowly walk up to them with hylian shield. Unless you can somehow make your hylian shield explosive. I'm approaching you with a projectile eating wall of spikes, while link has to choose between walking or throwing ****. He doesn't get to use both at the same time.

Even Pac-Man's fruit are better for setups than link's projectiles because they have more properties. Call me back when you can get footstool combos off of bombs that keep bouncing on the opponent's head (every fruit can do this), when you can place a stationary bomb in front of the ledge to stop recoveries (melon), or when you can outright kill an opponent before 130% with any one of your projectiles alone (key).

Pac-Man has better/more options to combat his disadvantages. And I guess I did miss the glaring flaw that is link's horrible disadvantage state as opposed to Pac-Man's great one. We are one of the only characters that can easily and quickly threaten an opponent trying to juggle us, while link has the perfect physics for combo food.

 

[Kofu]

wow im an idiot of course its the monado lol

I'm still interested to find the second though.

I've pretty much concluded that Mewtwos tail has a larger disjoint than marth (on tail attacks, of course) so im going to test it vs the remaining sword users.

Pretty sure large Gunner FSmash is among the largest disjoints in the game, if not the largest. And yes, it's a disjoint, not a projectile.

 

[Vipermoon]

Where almost nothing's op aye?

Tell me my dear watson have you ever heard of early 3DS days ?

Don't know what you're talking about. Bowser was obviously #1 and OP A.F. in the 3DS days

 

[Kofu]

Speaking of Pac, he's decent but Rosalina shuts him down so badly it hurts. Even Abadango knows and why he refuses to use Pac Man against her. Also can't Villager pocket Pac Man's fruit or hydrant and he loses that tool for good?

Villager Pocketing the Hydrant does nothing to stop Pac-Man from pulling out another one. Pocketing Bonus Fruit doesn't directly stop Pac-Man from using the move but makes it easier for him to have it in hand, which does stop him from using it.

 

[Browny]

Pretty sure large Gunner FSmash is among the largest disjoints in the game, if not the largest. And yes, it's a disjoint, not a projectile.

I wasn't talking about specific attacks, I mean in general which character has the most moves with the most disjoints. Characters like Mario have a great disjoint on fsmash but almost nothing outside of that.

 

[Teshie U]

I hate Gunner Fsmash, I wish Megaman's wasn't so unsafe by comparison.

Is Charizard's tail more disjointed than Mewtwo's? I know Ftilt and Bair hit pretty far away.

 

[wm1026]

Charizard almost has like a tipper affect when it comes to his tail. If you hit with fire on his tail then you do more damage and knock back. Tippered bair on Charizard is absurdly powerful.

 

[Kofu]

I hate Gunner Fsmash, I wish Megaman's wasn't so unsafe by comparison.

Is Charizard's tail more disjointed than Mewtwo's? I know Ftilt and Bair hit pretty far away.

Mega Man can arguably make a more dangerous landing trap, though, since it increases in distance the longer it's charged. But the multi-hit effect and (assuming the 1.0.4 Master Core data is still correct) its transcendent properties make it a really good attack (though Mega Man's FSmash is also transcendent I believe). Its only real downside is its pitiful damage output (I think the uncharged attack does 9% if all hits connect lol).

 

[Teshie U]

Uncharge Mega Fsmash is frame 21 and THEN the shot has to travel. Only does 12 damage too. Its not a terrible punisher for landings, but most characters don't have an aerial that wouldn't be more easily punished with dash grab.

I actually didn't know gunner's fsmash was also transcendant. That just makes it even better. Its not terribly weak for a move with so much range, priority and relative safety at max range.

 

[Kofu]

Uncharge Mega Fsmash is frame 21 and THEN the shot has to travel. Only does 12 damage too. Its not a terrible punisher for landings, but most characters don't have an aerial that wouldn't be more easily punished with dash grab.

I actually didn't know gunner's fsmash was also transcendant. That just makes it even better. Its not terribly weak for a move with so much range, priority and relative safety at max range.

Oh, for sure, it's a great attack and the damage it does isn't awful (and it still has kill power so the low damage isn't that much of a hindrance). I think I've seen Gunner's FSmash clank but I could be remembering wrong. It's not like Mega Man is lacking in zoning tools himself but Gunner's FSmash is overall better.

I could complain about how Pikachu's FSmash upsets me as a Game & Watch main, but I won't unless someone asks.

 

[Browny]

Reflecting Olimar's fsmash is fun.

That is all.

 

[warionumbah2]

Contrast "this" to Meta Knight, who also still gets the random "low tier" feels, yet we have an army of passive aggressors AND proof/results/solid theory to combat that with. Don't feed into the dark side and become the next passive aggressive sword wielding character army until it's really obvious people aren't justified feeling that way.

I could complain about how Pikachu's F-Smash upsets me as a Game & Watch main, but I won't unless someone asks.

Can you complain about the F-Smash pls?

 

[Ikes]

Pretty sure large Gunner FSmash is among the largest disjoints in the game, if not the largest. And yes, it's a disjoint, not a projectile.

isnt his uair larger?

 

[Rizen]

IDK why people are comparing Pac to Link because they both zone. It's like comparing Fox to CF just because they're both rushdown.
Pac Man is obviously better than Link, lol. He's faster in frame data and has better mobility.
A few things though:

1 I'm approaching you with a projectile eating wall of spikes, while link has to choose between walking or throwing ****. He doesn't get to use both at the same time.

2 Even Pac-Man's fruit are better for setups than link's projectiles because they have more properties. Call me back when you can get footstool combos off of bombs that keep bouncing on the opponent's head (every fruit can do this), when you can place a stationary bomb in front of the ledge to stop recoveries (melon), or when you can outright kill an opponent before 130% with any one of your projectiles alone (key).

1 Link should really be SHing his projectiles/Zair. Bombs will eat most other projectiles that are weak and cancel with strong range attacks like Samus' charge shot. The Hylian Shield isn't a good approach option. What holds Link back is is slow frame data and mobility.

2 Link can throw a bomb down> footstool> FF Nair or arrow to lock the opponent>arrow a few more times with the quick fire custom>charge a double Fsmash. Link can't place a stationary bomb offstage but he can angle his boomerang and shoot arrows from a distance and throw a bomb down>Dair spike the opponent's recovery. Or make a wall by throwing a bomb or 2 up offstage and waiting for them to fall. The thing about Link's projectiles is he can have up to 2 bombs, 1 boomerang and 1 other attack on screen at once. VS a Link who knows what they're doing, you'll be dealing with 3 or 4 attacks at once.
I agree Pac wins when killing with projectiles but technically a bomb thrown up can kill early like Uairs on low ceilings. Link's power bow custom probably kills around 80% (but it's not good for anything else and not worth using).

 

[Zage]

Villager Pocketing the Hydrant does nothing to stop Pac-Man from pulling out another one. Pocketing Bonus Fruit doesn't directly stop Pac-Man from using the move but makes it easier for him to have it in hand, which does stop him from using it.

Interesting note about pocketing bonus fruit. It's only when Villager has the pocketed Fruit out AND Pac-Man isn't charging/doesn't have a full charge that it becomes unavailable. Keys and still charging fruit are usable.

I actually don't know if this was discussed before:

If Sheik could turn into Zelda again (but they keep their down B using a taunt for the transformation) would Sheik improve at all (assuming the trans isn't laggy)?

I don't think there is a single match-up where Zelda performs better than Shiek. Could anyone else shed some insight on this?

 

[PUK]

I don't think there is a single match-up where Zelda performs better than Shiek. Could anyone else shed some insight on this?

No MU, but some situation are better transformed into a stock by zelda (mostly edgeguard situation or high rage). Also against a 120% Lucario with a charged AS you could prefer someone with a reflector

 

[Kofu]

Can you complain about the F-Smash pls?

Oh well since you asked

Let's start with the easy stuff. They're both far forward-reaching disjoints that can't be angled and KO around the same percents, so they're somewhat comparable. Pikachu's FSmash hits on frame 15 and lasts for eight frames (through frame 22). Meanwhile, Game & Watch's FSmash hits on frames 17-18. This specific point probably bugs me more than anything else, since Game & Watch's FSmash used to linger in Brawl but they removed it. Now I have to say that Pikachu's FSmash is weird, and the strongest hit is actually from frames 18-20. Game & Watch's FSmash has a fairly normal sweetspot/sourspot mechanic with the sweetspot at the torch head. Both attacks, when sweetspotted, deal 18% uncharged. Even though it's arguably harder to sweetspot Pikachu's FSmash, the point remains that it hits earlier than Game & Watch's and lasts longer while being comparable in damage. The removal of Brawl Game & Watch's lingering FSmash while giving it a sweetspot is a sore point, But Pikachu gets a lingering FSmash where all hitboxes can kill. I'd be okay with the sweetspot if we still had our lingering attack. Pac-Man's smashes also irritate me for their lingering properties. It tells me that the devs are okay with lingering smashes, just not on Game & Watch.

Something else which isn't directly related but still relevant is Pikachu's FSmash's smash charge window. It's frame 14. That means when releasing it after charging it it comes out in two frames (I think it resumes the animation then progresses with it). That's kind of ludicrous. This makes challenging a Pikachu charging an FSmash head on a risky proposition. Most smash charge windows are at least five frames before the actual smash comes out but Pikachu's FSmash has it one frame before. That's dumb.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I really want to know where this "Pac-Man has shiek's matchup spread" came from. This same baseless argument is brought up every time I speak in this thread. I say something good about Pac-Man's matchups and then people assumes that I mean that Pac-Man is some sort of god. We still lose to people like shiek, sonic, and rosa. We just have no hard counters.

And now I wait for someone else to compare Pac-Man to brawl meta knight.

What I mean by having no default style is that it flows across all three of the normal styles. It isn't an outlier, it's a combination.

Ok...? I never said it was a unique aspect from link. I was demonstrating how it can be used for multiple purposes. It's unique in that it serves multiple purposes in one package while link has to choose.

Never said it was even. Pacman can hide behind the trampoline, but sonic has the upper hand if he gains the percentage advantage first. That would force us to play honestly against him, which is difficult. It's a -1


I'm not making a move comparison here, I'm making a comparison between how well Pac-Man can handle rush down as opposed to link. The trampoline is the reason why the disjointed uair is more significant.
Why did you pull this out of context?

Then I missed your point. I thought you meant that the character loses to faster camping.

I'll just ignore the repeated sarcasm over Pac-Man's nair and get into the less petty stuff. I failed to make a proper argument against the differences in link and Pac-Man, but what you missed for the most part was the fact that this was supposed to be a comparison between the differences in their disadvantages, rather than their game plan as a whole. Pac-Man is the more cohesive character because he has better ways to enforce whatever he chooses to do. Trampoline to assist his camping by making it a lot less vulnerable to power shielding and forcing opponents to approach him from a disadvantaged state, while the hydrant makes his camp game and approach game stronger by both beating out projectiles and threatening the opponent with a projectile of his own. Don't compare this to hylian shield because A.) hylian shield can't hurt the opponent and B.) the opponent isn't forced to evade when you slowly walk up to them with hylian shield. Unless you can somehow make your hylian shield explosive. I'm approaching you with a projectile eating wall of spikes, while link has to choose between walking or throwing ****. He doesn't get to use both at the same time.

Even Pac-Man's fruit are better for setups than link's projectiles because they have more properties. Call me back when you can get footstool combos off of bombs that keep bouncing on the opponent's head (every fruit can do this), when you can place a stationary bomb in front of the ledge to stop recoveries (melon), or when you can outright kill an opponent before 130% with any one of your projectiles alone (key).

Pac-Man has better/more options to combat his disadvantages. And I guess I did miss the glaring flaw that is link's horrible disadvantage state as opposed to Pac-Man's great one. We are one of the only characters that can easily and quickly threaten an opponent trying to juggle us, while link has the perfect physics for combo food.

I'm glad to hear for once that someone actually thinks Pac Man loses the Rosalina matchup. Not sure why but I feel like there was a huge argument over it before even though most people clearly lose to Rosalina including PacMan.

 

[Nu~]

I'm glad to hear for once that someone actually thinks Pac Man loses the Rosalina matchup. Not sure why but I feel like there was a huge argument over it before even though most people clearly lose to Rosalina including PacMan.

Pellet healing helps us win nuetral, but rosa still outranges and outprioritizes us pretty well. It would be even if every stage was FD (that way rosa wouldn't be able to jump over the hydrants onto a platform instead of healing us through GP.)

It's only a -1 though, but I can respect Abadango switching to wario considering that that matchup is probably really good for him. Same with sonic. -1 for us, +1 for rosa.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Question: For those who advocate for customs, what's your stance on size regulation of miis? I do not understand why mii's should be allowed to have size variations for customs tourney. That is not a moveset change. That changes ground/air mobility, combos, and weight. I believe only regular size should be legal.

And just so people know: Only small mii can kill you at 0 with dthrow>fair>up b.

 

[Smog Frog]

my stance on miis is that they're basically an entire custom character, so you choose the size and going small DOES have its consequences even if they're not immediately apparent(namely the fact that they have probably the ****tiest range in the game, only rivaled by and )

 

[Nabbitnator]

I always thought the sizes should be regulated just because its not part of a moveset.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I can't help but feel bad for Mii mains. Their viability is essentially determined by the TO.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming apparently ryuga and rayquaza are here, maybe we can get some confirmation on how good is

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming apparently ryuga and rayquaza are here

And those two are a team in doubles apparently!

 

[Djent]

RE: @ Seagull Joe
Mii size is pretty much orthogonal to the customs debate, since (as you said) it's not part of their moveset. I personally don't mind letting Miis choose their optimal size(s), but would change my mind pretty quickly if size counterpicking ever led us into a logistical nightmare.

 

[DEHF]

Fairs primary use is used for both combo extending and gimp opponents off stage. However the latter is hard to execute because of his fall speed. Why @ DEHF executes it all the time we'll never know.

On a side note though a fun thing to do with fox's fair onstage is doing up tilt to fair dunk to up tilt into another fair spike at mid % although the opponent can just tech out of it so you gotta keep that in mind.

it's not that hard if you practice it a lot

 

[NachoOfCheese]

it's not that hard if you practice it a lot

Ksev does it a lot too