Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

Any character that has a 65:35 or worse on their MU spread can't really even dream about being high tier. Especially if it's against a popular tournament character.

Ness gets ruined by bowser but he's what, top 8?

Also no, Luigi is still high tier. Luigi isn't "Overrated", you're just salty that he's good.

 

[TriTails]

Plus shield breaker is just naturally marth's longest range move right?

And with the improved cooldown it's really safe at max range.

iirc it out-ranges F-smash and the fully charged tippered version kills 1-3% earlier than fully charged tippered F-smash.

@ TriTails , this is true. Thus I should mention that my main issue with Shield Breaker isn't that it can be powershielded: it's that the setup is damn near impossible to connect if the opponent is doing anything other than standing directly in front of you. Sure, you can condition them to shield on reaction and buffer SB before the other fellow realises what you have in store, but I can't imagine it's a tactic with much consistency.

You could also just spotdodge or do anything to not be in range of the move when it could potentially be buffered. I really like the move, I think it's very useful if it connects and, as I say, makes for a very fun nuclear option, but I honestly find it difficult to conceive of a scenario wherein it is universally more beneficial than DA.

Of course, I don't main Marth or Lucina, hence why I requested feedback. So thanks for that!

EDIT: I guess mid-air buffer to release when you touch down is a useful tactic? Still unsure how it works if the opponent doesn't shield on reaction.

I have ever got DB hit 1 and 2 on shield, and suddenly the Marth just whip out an uncharged SB and break my shield. This can be useful when you are fighting against people who are unfamiliar (Thinking you would do the entire DB combo) or people who likes to shield attacks.

I myself don't use SB much. Leaving yourself wide open for seconds doesn't sound like a good idea, even though it's essentially your fourth smash attack, the most powerful one perhaps. I think the best way to treat it is to treat it as a smash attack. Hit and you're rewarded a lot. Whiff and you're punished.

Ness gets ruined by bowser but he's what, top 8?

Also no, Luigi is still high tier. Luigi isn't "Overrated", you're just salty that he's good.

You are making it sound like Ness go like 35:65 against Bowser...

 

[Espy Rose]

I skipped an entire page, but I just read that AA said that Sonic doesn't care about ZSS's neutral and threw up.
What are you doing? Serious.

Her neutral is one of the very reasons he straight up loses to her. What the ****.

 

[Noa.]

Ness gets ruined by bowser but he's what, top 8?

Also no, Luigi is still high tier. Luigi isn't "Overrated", you're just salty that he's good.

How does ness even lose to bowser? Nevertheless gets destroyed by him? What

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Espy Rose

My man read the post and was like

 

[Thinkaman]

Passing thoughts:

Yeah, I thought we all agreed that ZSS was the worst matchup for Sonic, or similar? We certainly have a lot of national tourney evidence for this, including Nick Riddle's hilarious bracket romp at CEO.

I agree that Duck Hunt is an overlooked winner of this patch, particularly in that no one is talking about him getting 1 frame faster FAF on dodge, rolls, and air dodge. This is great for him!

Jury still out on WFT. A dozen tiny buffs? Hard to judge. That said, the grab adjustment is really nice--no more whiffing on Pikachu or Kirby who are doing random attacks. (Ducking is different, and was never actually the problem.)

Really pleased with the Robin Arcthunder change. Very well-targeted buff, very appropriate.

Ditto on the Lucas grab changes.

Happy with the direction of the Mewtwo changes, but I agree they seem a bit underwhelming and are unlikely to move him much.

Zelda's changes are solid, but she's still flawed. Phantom is even closer to almost being an amazing move, but not quite.

No clue on Luigi.

Sheik fair nerf was a really good idea, especially if DI and SDI of fair chains is as significant as I suspect. Sheik is still going to be the best in the game though, which I think we all agree on?

The Mac changes seem totally insignificant. Alas.

We can talk about Marth all day, but no one is mentioning how Lucina is edging closer and closer to Marth--albeit slowly. Also see: Doc. Still a gap, but worth pointing out.

Ness loses to Bowser when Bowser's name is spelled Rosalina.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes it has extremely good range and it's transcendent priority so it's also sometimes good for punishing with or for reaching hurtboxes/going through their attack, especially from the air, where shield breaker has much more range.

http://smashboards.com/threads/conditioning-your-opponents-shield-for-the-break.407649/

Go to this thread and read "Vipermoon64's Additions" if you actually care to know SB usefulness and mind game methods.

Sheild Breaker is a very complicated mind game and you really need experience against all types of characters and players to make it worth using (on each separate SB attempt whether it's for hitting shields or for killing you really have to innovate. You can't just randomly press B).

It's a very good move but it must be occasional use ONLY. One game with Marth should have at least one shield breaker use (especially if you have them in disadvantage where this move shines) but of course it depends on a billion things and one of them especially is the player.

With the reduced lag (and even before that), if they block a spaced SB (not perfect shield) you can often get out a Dtilt, jab, dolphin slash, spot dodge, counter, or whatever in time before their punish with jab and dilt leading into more things. This is especially true if they spend slightly more time in shield than they have to. Currently it comes out on frame 19-20 (charging at 11, release is in 8 frames) and is 50 total frames.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

If you think for a second that Bowser counters Ness then you straight up aren't playing Ness right.
Bowser can go through PK fire. So what? PK fire is punishable in neutral anyways. Can Bowser go through Fair? Uair? Nair? PK thunder? Nope.
Bowser can't land and Ness juggles so hard you'd think he's a street performer in Vegas. Once Bowser is offstage he's got nothing but the shell on his back, and even that can't protect him from Ness's plethora of edgeguarding options. This matchup is a lot of things but it ain't a good one for Bowser and running through flames won't change that.

 

[Djent]

One thing AA mentioned that I very much agree with: 's new -2 is pretty dumb

Between the laser buff, universal jab-jab-usmash, and Twisting Fox remaining untouched, I suspect he's the obvious #3 after Sheik and Pika in a customs meta. I know he (theoretically) struggles a little in both of those MUs, but that's basically the only thing I can see holding him back now. Every other MU will be even or in his advantage because a character with such stellar kill power/setups as he has shouldn't have Falco's laser.

 

[Ffamran]

Every other MU will be even or in his advantage because a character with such stellar kill power/setups as he has shouldn't have Falco's laser

He should have Falco's Blaster since he's the one who started out with it in Smash 64, but the developers decided it might be better for Fox to have a projectile that didn't have hit stun in Melee and onwards. Gee, I wonder why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYnfUlKc1nc? And now they make a mistake that in customs, Fox is going to abuse his Impact Blaster which was already a better default Falco Blaster purely because it had low end lag.

 

[HeavyLobster]

" is +2 against "

also, since i'm so tempted, let me make an mu chart:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

???:

peach beats character who are forced to approach her or aren't fast enough to evade her pressure, but gets bodied by character who excel at camping

if someone can explain the mus i'm unsure about or want something explained, ask me. it's late so i'll answer as soon as i can tomorrow.

How is Ganon -2? That MU is very even from my experience. Peach certainly has her fair share of combos but she's also reasonably punishable and pretty light and dies quickly. I don't see anything she's got that would make her unusually problematic for him.

 

[Ikes]

i think ganon is +1 against everyone








...or so goes the new trending train of thought

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah... I think we can give up on the whole "balancing customs" thing now.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah... I think we can give up on the whole "balancing customs" thing now.

Well, they reduced end lag on all of Fox, Robin, and the Pits's customs neutrals, nerfed/removed Pikachu's Thunder Wave infinite along with changing the hit angles to Thunder Jolt and Wave to 0 which probably removed the infinite, changed Charizard's Dragon Rush damage?, and made Link's Shocking Spin a bit stronger since the Spin Attack buffs at the time more or less overshadowed Shocking Spin and apparently reduced Power Bow from 20% to 19%. They're not doing much unless it's significant... Ahem... Kong Cyclone changes, please. Oh, and Falco's Blaster changes to both customs and default since at this point, except for Explosive Blaster, Falco's default Blaster and Burst Blaster are pretty much inferior versions of Fox's Impact Blaster and default Blaster. The "pros" of Falco's default and Burst Blaster is that default can fire "repeatedly" in exchange for 21 more frames of end lag and Burst Blaster fires more quickly in exchange for less range, less damage, smaller hitboxes, and on a character that moves slower than Fox. The developers should know that by nature, humans are competitive and if we can get an edge on someone, we will. That means if customs are allowed and customs are better in certain MUs or just better, then they're going to be used.

 

[Ikes]

you can literally just airdodge out of kong cyclone though wtf

 

[Gamegenie222]

Man just thinking about the Falco blaster and Fox blaster getting buff makes me pretty salt.

Well, they reduced end lag on all of Fox, Robin, and the Pits's customs neutrals, nerfed/removed Pikachu's Thunder Wave infinite along with changing the hit angles to Thunder Jolt and Wave to 0 which probably removed the infinite, changed Charizard's Dragon Rush damage?, and made Link's Shocking Spin a bit stronger since the Spin Attack buffs at the time more or less overshadowed Shocking Spin and apparently reduced Power Bow from 20% to 19%. They're not doing much unless it's significant... Ahem... Kong Cyclone changes, please. Oh, and Falco's Blaster changes to both customs and default since at this point, except for Explosive Blaster, Falco's default Blaster and Burst Blaster are pretty much inferior versions of Fox's Impact Blaster and default Blaster. The "pros" of Falco's default and Burst Blaster is that default can fire "repeatedly" in exchange for 21 more frames of end lag and Burst Blaster fires more quickly in exchange for less range, less damage, smaller hitboxes, and on a character that moves slower than Fox. The developers should know that by nature, humans are competitive and if we can get an edge on someone, we will. That means if customs are allowed and customs are better in certain MUs or just better, then they're going to be used.

Yeah sounds about right. If I had a quarter for every one of your post regarding Falco I be on the way of being rich soon.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I really can't understand Nintendo, they nerfed Sonic but they buffed Mii Brawler? An already good character? Yeah he got some nerfs but they were very minor. And Sonic also got a very minor nerf but still, now they actually gave Mii Brawler more reliable options on his attacks. They even changed the charge time for the chargable Uppercut (I really can't remember Mii Fighters moves other than Helicopter Kick ) I mean it's not fair at all. And that Forward Smash nerf was for the Sonic hate. Not the character itself. Sonic was totally fine.

I loved the Lucas buffs though. Really good and D-Tilt to Grab it's more reliable now. Anyways, I think Wii Fit Trainer has taken a spot in middle tier thanks to her buffs. Now her attacks connect better and have larger hitboxes, and Sun Salutation now heals 2%. Which is good, does anyone agree with me?

 

[Antunee]

How is Ganon -2? That MU is very even from my experience. Peach certainly has her fair share of combos but she's also reasonably punishable and pretty light and dies quickly. I don't see anything she's got that would make her unusually problematic for him.

As a fellow Ganon player, Turnips and SH floaty aerials.

 

[Ghostbone]

Wii fit Trainer is better than Falcon now lol.

 

[Ffamran]

you can literally just airdodge out of kong cyclone though wtf

The spammable nature of it, especially on Battlefield is what's annoying. It's not overwhelming in a sense DK hits you, you die at 0% 10 seconds into the match, but more so that it can sort of be used like Pikachu's Quick Attack, but with a massive hitbox that pulls you in courtesy of its windbox. Something like making the ledge cancel much tighter or increased startup or even a removal of the invincibility and making it like Ryu's Focus Attack where DK only armors 1 hit might be a good thing. Kong Cyclone and Hammer Spin Dash are often cited as the reason why customs are toxic, but then you forget that Marth and Lucina can grab release and Crescent Slash you...

At the same time, they're not that overwhelming, but they are difficult to deal with even if you have a basic idea of how they work, how many DK players are there? How many people even know how to deal with Sonic's regular Spin Dash? Putting a spin on things just makes it worse, especially if they're moves people either don't already know how to deal with or characters you rarely fight. Even characters like Falco throwing out a Reflector Void could confuse people since one, Falco's not that common and two, there's this misconception that Fox and Falco's Reflectors are useless since they're not frame 1 shines like in Melee or PM. Then again, Wolf had intangibility frames and his Reflector could be used offensively in Brawl.

 

[Speed Boost]

I really can't understand Nintendo, they nerfed Sonic but they buffed Mii Brawler? An already good character? Yeah he got some nerfs but they were very minor. And Sonic also got a very minor nerf but still, now they actually gave Mii Brawler more reliable options on his attacks. They even changed the charge time for the chargable Uppercut (I really can't remember Mii Fighters moves other than Helicopter Kick ) I mean it's not fair at all. And that Forward Smash nerf was for the Sonic hate. Not the character itself. Sonic was totally fine.

I loved the Lucas buffs though. Really good and D-Tilt to Grab it's more reliable now. Anyways, I think Wii Fit Trainer has taken a spot in middle tier thanks to her buffs. Now her attacks connect better and have larger hitboxes, and Sun Salutation now heals 2%. Which is good, does anyone agree with me?

I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed Sonic again because of how unpopular he is with spectators and players alike. At least I hope that's the reason. I would keep nerfing him until he is a mid tier.

I definately agree about WFT though. I played a good one of FG today and I was impressed. Her grab seems a lot better now. Placebo?

 

[Smog Frog]

doesnt need to be nerfed until he's a mid tier. that wont solve anything; he's a cancerous piece of **** by design. he was fine after the patch and didnt need anything else done to him after.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, they reduced end lag on all of Fox, Robin, and the Pits's customs neutrals, nerfed/removed Pikachu's Thunder Wave infinite along with changing the hit angles to Thunder Jolt and Wave to 0 which probably removed the infinite, changed Charizard's Dragon Rush damage?, and made Link's Shocking Spin a bit stronger since the Spin Attack buffs at the time more or less overshadowed Shocking Spin and apparently reduced Power Bow from 20% to 19%. They're not doing much unless it's significant... Ahem... Kong Cyclone changes, please. Oh, and Falco's Blaster changes to both customs and default since at this point, except for Explosive Blaster, Falco's default Blaster and Burst Blaster are pretty much inferior versions of Fox's Impact Blaster and default Blaster. The "pros" of Falco's default and Burst Blaster is that default can fire "repeatedly" in exchange for 21 more frames of end lag and Burst Blaster fires more quickly in exchange for less range, less damage, smaller hitboxes, and on a character that moves slower than Fox. The developers should know that by nature, humans are competitive and if we can get an edge on someone, we will. That means if customs are allowed and customs are better in certain MUs or just better, then they're going to be used.

Most of those were just to "balance" the alts with the defaults. Not that most of those needed buffs to begin with. Besides that it's just balaning moves rather irrelevantly off of each other and nerfing obviously broken stuff, and not actually fixing problems like Zelda or even Mewtwo.

 

[Wintropy]

@wedl, it's been a while since I've fought a good Peach, but I used to tussle with her a lot and I think the Pit matchup is still in Peach's favour, albeit by a relatively small amount. You said yourself that Peach is good if she can force the opponent to approach and can't be camped out if the opponent isn't committed to that kind of gameplan; by virtue of Pit's reactive playstyle, I think it's very difficult for us to commit to any absolute playstyle too much, ergo it's very easy for Peach to just set up a wall of floating f-airs and turnips and make Pit go on the offensive. Her combo game is very strong and she can weave in and out of Pit's range if she needs to, which makes approaching even more dangerous for us.

I think what keeps this relatively balanced for both parties is the fact that Pit can switch up his tricks on the fly and force Peach to adapt to fit his playstyle. Peach's float combos are nasty if Pit isn't ready to counter them, but an OOS option like f-air or d-air chain can force Peach into a vulnerable position and rack up damage for us. Peach is tricky to keep hold of, though, and her smashes are quick and can do some serious damage if we're not careful. Same with any combo-heavy opponent, we have to be very careful with how we bait and punish, but because both of us need to rack up damage before we commit to the kill, it can become a war of attrition to see who seals the stock first. The fact that Peach is near-impossible to reliably gimp, has great aerial priority, combos for days and has strong frame data on her smashes (that f-smash is just ouch), I think, puts her just ahead of Pit in this matchup.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Does everyone really want Project M Sonic? Remember my post about Sonic Wave and Sonic Eagle? Would you really like Sonic having a projectile and an amazing attack/spike? Sonic could have been handled better. His attacks could have worked better. Sonic doesn't really need the Spin Dash on his games. They should give him boost or something like that I don't know. Or maybe the Light Speed Attack (Make Sonic throw a Ring in a place, then you activate by pressing B again and Sonic will go directly where the ring his. Like Pac-man with his Side-B).

But I digress. I really want to discuss right now Mii Swordfighter. He got some really huge buffs. Some of his attacks got a really really huge turn in frame data and he has a really good moveset right now. But I would like some details on him, since I haven't played with him at all. How much terror can he deliver? Is he now a High Tier? Is he still Mid/High Mid Tier?

 

[Ffamran]

Most of those were just to "balance" the alts with the defaults. Not that most of those needed buffs to begin with. Besides that it's just balaning moves rather irrelevantly off of each other and nerfing obviously broken stuff, and not actually fixing problems like Zelda or even Mewtwo.

Still, they're being changed. The developers could have just ignored them completely. There is thought even if it's slight like, "Hey, maybe we should do something with the customs so they don't get overshadowed". Customs are options and if they're just strictly worse than the defaults, that's just a waste of effort and data which could have gone somewhere else or just to not have them and reduce the game's size. Seriously, would anyone use customs if they were strictly worse than defaults? Example being if Mario's Explosive Punch only had fire effects, but had reduced height, increased startup, and did the same damage and knockback. That's not a custom, that's an inferior, reskinned version of Mario's Super Jump Punch. That's also poor game design and nobody's that stupid to do something like that.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

What, does Sonic's f-smash kill about 5% later now? Less? It's barely a nerf. Sonic's still top tier.

Try being one of the worst characters in the game and getting overlooked for buffs every time, while every other bottom tier character just gets better and better.

 

[Ikes]

i wish sonic's neutral b was changed to being able to do it much faster, and in any direction, but it doesnt lock on. Maybe it could be repeated quickly on hit, like peach bomber? would be a hell of a lot more like his games tbh.spindash could be ground-locked, like in most of his games.

 

[Smog Frog]

in his games, he could exit from a spindash into a run with no transition(and he could jump out of it...until 06 anyway). and keeping it ground locked would kinda ruin him. unless it did set vertical knockback and he could jump out of it. what changes are you proposing for it?

 

[Vipermoon]

To be completely honest, I hate it when Sonic mains complain.

Like seriously, that Fsmash has still has great range, kill power, and low lag.

 

[Shaya]

So I've been thinking about the top 5 of this game over the last few days, especially in light of the patch and EVO/etc results.

In no particular order, with a tad of perhaps overzealous theory crafting on my side:


Those buffs to diddy were actually quite large. Diddy has a frame 5 up smash that you now DON'T fall out of. Down tilt and banana into dash usmash were both his two easiest things to get, but after a certain percent (or with good DI) opponents would always fall out. I'm just not seeing this at all anymore.
Basically after the two patches he had his kill capabilities nerfed a lot, and he was still a good character. The dsmash/usmash buffs accentuate underused moves that are definitely potent killers and he definitely has set ups or situations to use these two moves more now.
i.e. Diddy's Up smash is one of the best moves in the game.

Mario, like ZSS, seems impervious to changes. They're probably just as common as Luigis are in every scene/region, yet the results between the two tend to not be that far different, and the national level difference is pretty noticeable. Mario has no real weaknesses I can account for anymore.

Meta Knight is now abusive-tier (or was before, but now everyone knows). Buffs every patch result in this. I would say he needs 1% or so taken off of Shuttle Loop and the "abuse" will be noticeably less apparent (the 50/60% stocks off the top that are definitely easier/more consistent to get than ZSS by several magnitudes suddenly being 10-20% worse won't kill him).

ZSS or Rosa? I think Rosa's going to remain as a tier divider, much like Luigi. ZSS has more mains doing well across the globe and better results (imo).

All of these characters are imo close to even with each other. ZSS maybe slightly losing to Mario/Sheik and maybe Diddy again, but her advantages across the cast are likely some of the most polarizing of these five.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Lol this may be a stupid question (sorry in advance) so WFT got +2 KBG on her moves now is that considerd a lot or is it basically nothing?

 

[Smog Frog]

for reference: lost 5 kbg on his fsmash and its barely different. 2 kgb is nothing.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

The significant buffs for WFT were to her grab and side special. (Not sure how big the hitbox changes were for f-smash and up smash.) The extra KBG was about as significant as the extra 1% healed from neutral-b: it's the thought that counts.

 

[ffdgh]

What, does Sonic's f-smash kill about 5% later now? Less? It's barely a nerf. Sonic's still top tier.

Try being one of the worst characters in the game and getting overlooked for buffs every time, while every other bottom tier character just gets better and better.

On the subject of Samus, I still find it rather humorous that Diddy was the one to get a down smash buff instead of her considering the latter ko's nearly 100/85% later than Diddy's now lol

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy is in an incredibly good spot right now. The up smash buff is so good, although I have suspicions that its more of a bug fix than anything. It's possible they just didn't check to make sure it would still link properly when they cut his damage and KB in half across the board and this is how they fix that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Still, they're being changed. The developers could have just ignored them completely. There is thought even if it's slight like, "Hey, maybe we should do something with the customs so they don't get overshadowed". Customs are options and if they're just strictly worse than the defaults, that's just a waste of effort and data which could have gone somewhere else or just to not have them and reduce the game's size. Seriously, would anyone use customs if they were strictly worse than defaults? Example being if Mario's Explosive Punch only had fire effects, but had reduced height, increased startup, and did the same damage and knockback. That's not a custom, that's an inferior, reskinned version of Mario's Super Jump Punch. That's also poor game design and nobody's that stupid to do something like that.

They took out an infinite and added another. It's like they have some underpaid intern doing all the work on them.

That, and Lucina exists. Only reason everybody has the same number of customs, besides the DLC characters, is because they decided to. You have characters with absolute garbage like Zelda, and it's not because all her defaults are bad either. Most of these customs exist to fill a slot, nothing more. They're largely not balanced. There's moves that are literally useless like Easy Pocket, there's ones thar help in strictly one matchup like Striking Flight, and then there's moves you'll never leave behind like Dongnado, Gust Cape, Guiding Bow (Pittwo) or Hammer Spindash outside of the one matchup. Which usually makes an already unbalanced matchup even worse, I might add.

 

[Ghostbone]

Meta Knight is now abusive-tier (or was before, but now everyone knows). Buffs every patch result in this. I would say he needs 1% or so taken off of Shuttle Loop and the "abuse" will be noticeably less apparent (the 50/60% stocks off the top that are definitely easier/more consistent to get than ZSS by several magnitudes suddenly being 10-20% worse won't kill him).

Have to agree about MK

It's not even difficult to routinely get kills off dash attack or down-throw at around 30-40%. Plus higher than that MK is still ridiculously threatening with up-airs since they confirm into themselves and up-b for KOs (up air around 70%+ is death a lot of the time >.>)

The character's neutral does suck but his reward is ridiculously skewed, and dash attack/dash grab and rolls are generally enough to sustain it, plus falling nair is safe on shield (at least as a cross-up) since they reduced the landing lag.

 

[Thinkaman]

They took out an infinite and added another. It's like they have some underpaid intern doing all the work on them.

That, and Lucina exists. Only reason everybody has the same number of customs, besides the DLC characters, is because they decided to. You have characters with absolute garbage like Zelda, and it's not because all her defaults are bad either. Most of these customs exist to fill a slot, nothing more. They're largely not balanced. There's moves that are literally useless like Easy Pocket, there's ones thar help in strictly one matchup like Striking Flight, and then there's moves you'll never leave behind like Dongnado, Gust Cape, Guiding Bow (Pittwo) or Hammer Spindash outside of the one matchup. Which usually makes an already unbalanced matchup even worse, I might add.

Wait, what? Zelda has above-average custom options. (In large part because her defaults are THAT bad for 1v1...) The Neutral options are poor, and Up-3 is gimmicky, but the other 5 are all respectable moves.

Phantom Strike was way better than the other two options before this patch. While it was improved, the other 2 were improved more, so it might not be the best anymore; not sure.

 

[Antonykun]

I FINALLY got me a chance to test out 1.1.0 Swordfighter with an actual offline player
here is my report

First of All the chakram infinite is bad:
the move is escapable if you didn't get hit by the initial chakram throw plus the move does not do the multi strike hitbox while you are in the air Chakram is incredibly slow up close and you should not be getting hit by the move upclose

Fast Chakram is still really good:
As I stated earlier this move is really good and versatile. I'd argue its superior to SoL in just about everything but damage and starup

Skyward Slash Dash is Swordfighter's best recovery:
the range buffs to SSD Swordfighter can do SSD really low to the vblast zone and still make it back the huge disjoints make the move win what would have been trades for the Star Fox crew's Up B's Hero's Spin is still the best attack and Stone Scabbard has the fraud exposing spike though

Blurring Blade is still meh:
the move is too weak KO wise to take advantage of it being an aerial F-smash that beats airdodges