Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Jamurai]

Tier lists don't matter, we don't need a drive to create one. They are just fun to talk about, because people like lists and rankings (for whatever reason). Besides, whole new characters are still being added to the game occasionally, and we still don't know what some characters can truly do, eg. Lucas and Roy. Therefore not only is it difficult to make an official tier list, it is also pointless. What actually matters is viability, and we don't need a tier list to tell us who is viable and who isn't.

 

[Firefoxx]

Its also frustrating for those of us who have been watching this thread for a year to see the same ****ing cycle endlessly repeat itself.

 

[the king of murder]

You're 80% on the bullseye, 20% on the archery instructor behind you.

I've said it since the beginning, and though my opinion has changed in degree, it hasn't in kind, and that's that Ganondorf is next to helpless against really anal players. It's by that reasoning, however, that I have to call you on the idea that I get results just because my opponents are ignorant to the MU. My region is replete with tremendously campy and non-commital players. Some, granted, aren't. But I think one would be remiss to say that my match against, say, Kimidori, was the result of him letting me get away with murder (). Quite the contrary, I had to work my big *** off to gain ground. But the next thing which I'll grant you is that Ganon as a character didn't have a lot to do with the outcome.

In other words, you're absolutely right: this is one thing I've professed <passionately> from the start: against shields -- those of especially mobile characters in particular -- Ganon's no longer able to consistently rely on his strengths. I've played my share of people who know how to play passively in an expert way, and as I mentioned before, Ganon's MO thus goes from high-reward set-ups and the consequent psychological dominance, leading to fatal mistakes to wars of attrition, poking for DTilts. Ganon play in these cases is a lot less beautiful, and a lot less ostensibly impressive. It's like a bullet-hell game. Everything looks really intimidating until you realize there are safe spots on screen and openings. Once you recognize those safe spots, you'll rarely get hit.

In short, fighting these kinds of people doesn't render Ganon nonviable. Rather, with sufficient skill and patience, Ganon can manipulate movements, force reactions and so forth. But his success rate significantly drops. If I'm good at nothing else, then I'm good at being patient and successfully planning several steps ahead. If a Ganon can do this, he'll still suffer, but he can still win.

Just to be clear, I never said Ganon doesn't struggle with shields, in fact, I have even proposed a shield damage buff for him in the past, just he does have options to deal with them, even if it is situational and isn't completly shut down by it.

 

[Flux0r]

I care about people caring about an amateur tier list and potentially derailing this thread with "This guy is too low, this guy is too high" with out adding any reason why or some other guys thinking that they can also post their own amateur tier list which creates more derailing posts.

It's a derail feedback loop

The point was to promote a healthy discussion about how the characters stack up in this game, isn't this thread supposed to discuss this?

But since you put it that way, maybe it's better to leave it as it is.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Man, why don't we have a community tier list? Reddit's are always reactionary and Eventhubs.......lawlz

There is a community voted tier list.

It doesn't have most of the people here though, and isn't official..... No professinal players except Nick Riddle either

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Petition to make @Trifroze 's list the official tier list. Because that one was right on the money.

 

[Nocally]

It's weird we don't have a tier list at this point, because when someone posts their own tier list, everybody and their neighbor suddenly knows which characters are too high and too low.
We seriously need to come up with a universal way of making a tier list (results, theory, popularity etc.) otherwise this is just going to be one endless and continuous loop.

by the way, whats more important when determining tiers; national results based one a couple of outliers or regional where the data is a little bit more plentiful?

 

[Spinosaurus]

It's not weird. A lot of fighting games don't have official tier lists. Most of the time people invested in the game just know which characters are viable or not. Smash was pretty unique in this regard.

Here's the thing, you can't really make an objective tier list. They change all the time, they don't even matter really. I feel like official tier lists really only matter to people who don't even participate in tournaments, but are still interested in the scene, because it's pretty much an easy way to know the consensus on a character's viability.

Matchup charts are more valuable, but it's too early for one.

 

[Thinkaman]

The purpose of tier lists is to look like idiots later. This is why I only post tier lists immediately after patches, ensuring my information is as speculative and inaccurate as possible.

 

[Pazx]

My tier list is on page 1 if anyone is interested.

I stopped trying to talk nice when Larry started posting about Ganondorf.

or when people put Ness at top 10.

It's very likely that Ness is top ten though, in fact I'd say with 100% certainty that he's at least top 15. I'm glad people have stopped placing him top 5, but his kit is naturally strong enough to perform well in most situations and he has the matchup spread of a top tier character (even or better against and he doesn't lose to random lower tiers aside from maybe Villager, possibly also Ike although I haven't seen that matchup discussed).

There's a lot of theorycraft surrounding his neutral and recovery but until people truly start abusing these things I don't see how he's anything but a top ten character.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Even if we did have a need for a tier list, it's hard to settle on one when the game keeps getting patched and things keep shifting around. The game as a whole is still pretty young, too.

That all said, a tier list is almost useless to an invested player who already understands the cast and what they can do; it's most useful to a new player who's trying to decide on a character to play who wouldn't have any idea without any sort of list. It's also a useful resource for low-tier tournaments, but I've only participated in one of those in my entire Smash career.

Matchup charts are much more useful, but I feel like the game is so young that almost no one has a solid idea of every matchup their character faces. They might have an idea, but have they had the experience to sit down and give each player time to figure the matchup out and understand how their options play out against the other character? With a handful of exceptions, I feel like any matchup chart is going to be more than half theorycraft based on one match or based on a vague idea of a character they've never had to figure out.

 

[L9999]

Moving away from edgeguarding...

Since people seem to be posting tier-lists as of lately...

Here is my WIP tier-list. It's almost done, but i lack the experience and understanding of some characters(e.g. Mii Characters) which is why i want you people to educate me on why your main is too low / high.

Let's begin!

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U: WIP Tier List - Planned for November

Spoiler: Tier List

S - Super Viable: Characters with huge strengths (almost no bad matchups, invalidates others) that is seen as a dominant force in the game.

A - Viable: Characters that can easily compete with the best and be a threatening force on a national scale.

B - Viable, but has flaws: Characters that can place high and achieve victory with enough skill, but has visible flaws that might hinder them.

C - Semi Viable: Characters that can perform well on most tourneys but is held back by some unfavorable matchups or weaknesses.

D - Low Viability: Characters that are considered in general unviable because of their few uses, poor matchups and so on. Can place decently, but requires an excessive amount of skill to do so.

E - Unviable: Characters with major weaknesses, their strengths becomes often hardly noticeable because of this.

F - Trash: Characters with such staggering weaknesses that it makes them unable to win anything.


Stuff i need information for:

- The proper arrangement of B, C and D-tier.
- Is Roy B-?
- Should there be less or more tiers?

The reason why B+ shares the same colour as A is because they are almost there, but not quite.

Thoughts:
I still think Ness is overrated considering I haven't seen much Ness play recently, but for now I'm fine with him in top 10. Luigi and Yoshi should be below Captain Falcon. B tier is good. Mii Brawler is garbage and belongs in E tier. Don't think Kirby is that high but not garbage at least. Lucina should be on D tier. It's really irrelevant to order E tier since all those characters are garbage, but I think Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game, but whatever. Both her and Zelda are garbage.

 

[Vermanubis]

Just to be clear, I never said Ganon doesn't struggle with shields, in fact, I have even proposed a shield damage buff for him in the past, just he does have options to deal with them, even if it is situational and isn't completly shut down by it.

No worries, I figured as much.

I was just addressing Dre's post as its own entity, not necessarily in relation to what you said, so no sweat!

 

[Rizen]

@ Edge guarding conversation:
What makes Link so good at edge guarding is his versatility, walling ability and safety. He can have 2 or 3 long lasting hitboxes out together. Arrows force dodges/jumps vs far out opponents. Boomerang can be angled up or down and has a constant attack going out which is good vs horizontal sideB recoveries and forces reactions. Bombs can be thrown up near the ledge to limit stalling, thrown down at low recoveries to combo into Nair/Dair and Z dropped for stage spikes. In addition to projectiles, his Fair cuts twice, Uair lasts frame 11-40, Nair 7-31 and Dair 14-64 all with good disjoint. Link's Ftilt reaches in an arc significantly below the ledge too.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't really see true harm in posting a tier list, as long as you justify the placements and rankings of said lists. That way people can better understand why you do things and give more constructive feedback. Like the matchup ratios issue earlier, what really matters is the data going into your analysis, not necessarily the end result. I'm not going to raise a stink over every single list that has Mewtwo at bottom just because I disagree with that notion, only if you provide reasons that I may or may not disagree with. You can't have a good argument if none is given to begin with.

 

[L9999]

I don't really see true harm in posting a tier list, as long as you justify the placements and rankings of said lists. That way people can better understand why you do things and give more constructive feedback. Like the matchup ratios issue earlier, what really matters is the data going into your analysis, not necessarily the end result. I'm not going to raise a stink over every single list that has Mewtwo at bottom just because I disagree with that notion, only if you provide reasons that I may or may not disagree with. You can't have a good argument if none is given to begin with.

First missed step with tier lists. Tier lists have % of opinion and this game has like a 100 billion characters thus the mid tiers are ALWAYS a mess since not every character is being played at the same amount/known very well. Like, the top 10 and garbage tiers are a little easy, but then you have the garbage tiers defenders who waste their time posting things without big evidence like a major and then there are the people that pull out the "overrated" card on any positioning of the top 10. The midle is always the problem. Almost all here agree Sheik and ZSS are 1st and 2nd and that the weakest of the top 10 is Ness, but then people pull out the "overrated" card, the rest is history.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Would you guys be fine if I posted an MU chart ft. Kirby (my new mixtape) and specified any MUs I feel are unpopular opinions? I haven't even made one but it would be a good way for me to gather my thoughts together and to inform anyone who wants to know. If not, I'm just making it for myself and showing my fellow Slack members.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I don't really see true harm in posting a tier list, as long as you justify the placements and rankings of said lists. That way people can better understand why you do things and give more constructive feedback. Like the matchup ratios issue earlier, what really matters is the data going into your analysis, not necessarily the end result. I'm not going to raise a stink over every single list that has Mewtwo at bottom just because I disagree with that notion, only if you provide reasons that I may or may not disagree with. You can't have a good argument if none is given to begin with.

Eh, I'm not gonna post a tier list anytime soon; I must admit, I don't know most of these characters very well - especially the lower tier characters - so giving an input based on nothing would look really stupid on my part lol

Would you guys be fine if I posted an MU chart ft. Kirby (my new mixtape) and specified any MUs I feel are unpopular opinions? I haven't even made one but it would be a good way for me to gather my thoughts together and to inform anyone who wants to know. If not, I'm just making it for myself and showing my fellow Slack members.

I think that would be fine, as long as you do what you stated above.

 

[Amadeus9]

Honestly this thread isn't even really cycling, just spiraling worse and worse. You rarely see anyone post here anymore that doesn't just **** post tier lists and responses to tier lists, everyone else is leaving because the thread just gets worse and worse.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Eh, I'm not gonna post a tier list anytime soon; I must admit, I don't know most of these characters very well - especially the lower tier characters - so giving an input based on nothing would look really stupid on my part lol



I think that would be fine, as long as you do what you stated above.

Okay. I'm not comfortable with posting tier lists because i don't know about a lot of characters, I only know them in correlation to Kirby

Honestly this thread isn't even really cycling, just spiraling worse and worse. You rarely see anyone post here anymore that doesn't just **** post tier lists and responses to tier lists, everyone else is leaving because the thread just gets worse and worse.

That's how most discussions are happening. Someone posts a tier list, people argue. We just have to wait for something worth arguing about to come along (even tho I'm making a kirby MU chart, don't call me a hypocrite). I think tier list discussion is good but I agree we need something more. MU charts are better tho

 

[Yikarur]

Guest size other moves allowed: Swordfighter > Gunner >= Brawler

Brawler is far better in Guest size than Swordfighter and Gunner. And Gunner is by far the worst.
Mii Brawler I'd say has high tier potential. I don't think Swordfighter will make it past Mid Tier.

 

[Dre89]

You're 80% on the bullseye, 20% on the archery instructor behind you.

I've said it since the beginning, and though my opinion has changed in degree, it hasn't in kind, and that's that Ganondorf is next to helpless against really anal players. It's by that reasoning, however, that I have to call you on the idea that I get results just because my opponents are ignorant to the MU. My region is replete with tremendously campy and non-commital players. Some, granted, aren't. But I think one would be remiss to say that my match against, say, Kimidori, was the result of him letting me get away with murder (). Quite the contrary, I had to work my big *** off to gain ground. But the next thing which I'll grant you is that Ganon as a character didn't have a lot to do with the outcome.

In other words, you're absolutely right: this is one thing I've professed <passionately> from the start: against shields -- those of especially mobile characters in particular -- Ganon's no longer able to consistently rely on his strengths. I've played my share of people who know how to play passively in an expert way, and as I mentioned before, Ganon's MO thus goes from high-reward set-ups and the consequent psychological dominance, leading to fatal mistakes to wars of attrition, poking for DTilts. Ganon play in these cases is a lot less beautiful, and a lot less ostensibly impressive. It's like a bullet-hell game. Everything looks really intimidating until you realize there are safe spots on screen and openings. Once you recognize those safe spots, you'll rarely get hit.

In short, fighting these kinds of people doesn't render Ganon nonviable. Rather, with sufficient skill and patience, Ganon can manipulate movements, force reactions and so forth. But his success rate significantly drops. If I'm good at nothing else, then I'm good at being patient and successfully planning several steps ahead. If a Ganon can do this, he'll still suffer, but he can still win.

Really interesting to hear your input on this Verm. When I say that people didn't know the MU, they may have known the general game plan, but there are instances in your sets where they just commit to stuff uneccesarily.

The way I see it, the only thing Ganondorf can punish in neutral is greed. For example I saw your set against a Lucario in grand finals and he lost the first game by jumping near you and getting faired. There's never any reason to jump near a Ganondorf in neutral. He played the MU quite well in passages but then also did a lot of uneccesarily unsafe stuff. I think people just get impatient because it's not fun playing that anal.

If you say it's possible to get in on non-committal people who just play shield-tootsies, then I'll believe it. Is your main thing against shields dash/pivot grab?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Brawler is far better in Guest size than Swordfighter and Gunner. And Gunner is by far the worst.
Mii Brawler I'd say has high tier potential. I don't think Swordfighter will make it past Mid Tier.

Gunner gets a good buff if she can be small, since her momentum shenanigans get better.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Thoughts:
I still think Ness is overrated considering I haven't seen much Ness play recently, but for now I'm fine with him in top 10. Luigi and Yoshi should be below Captain Falcon. B tier is good. Mii Brawler is garbage and belongs in E tier. Don't think Kirby is that high but not garbage at least. Lucina should be on D tier. It's really irrelevant to order E tier since all those characters are garbage, but I think Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game, but whatever. Both her and Zelda are garbage.

I agree fully with the Top Tier order being . This order makes a lot of sense. No questions asked.

However, even though Ness usage is decreasing, > I think. Ryu is doing well, but he doesn't deserve this position yet. I also think is far too high now as it is. is the character I'd personally put behind Ness, and even above Ryu. Whilst he's not any Top Player's main, he's an extremely strong secondary for many. So that should put him somewhat higher than current imo.

So far I'd rank the list like;

I'd let and switch places, is good. is also very logical, so I agree with those, however I'd put > > . However, with his recent results, I think could also be put in this tier. Same with . I even would argue is more viable than .

Next character I'd seriously rank higher is . Ally is no joke with him. Thanks to him, I'd rank him above even .

Since the next batch of characters aren't nearly as common, nor viable, am gonna put less input in the southern part of the tier list.

So far my list goes:

SHEIK:

S:

A:

A-:

B+:

B-:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

ZELDA:

 

[Routa]

Brawler is far better in Guest size than Swordfighter and Gunner. And Gunner is by far the worst.
Mii Brawler I'd say has high tier potential. I don't think Swordfighter will make it past Mid Tier.

The thing is that Mii Brawler lacks the combos and ACs that he has in smaller size. Swordfighter in the other hand still has some combos and ACs. Also the speed which is provided from Guest size is not very good for character like Brawler whose moveset is made for comboing (shortly said he lacks speed). Swordfighter can still do well within Guest size when all moves are allowed. Having Up-B that is near as strong as ZSS's does not remove the flaws of the character.

I do agree that Swordfighter wont past Mid Tier, but same thing with other Miis when they are forced to be in Guest size. I would say Brawler would jump from very low tier into high mid tier character if any size and move set would be allowed. Many don't seem to get how important the size is.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I agree fully with the Top Tier order being . This order makes a lot of sense. No questions asked.

However, even though Ness usage is decreasing, > I think. Ryu is doing well, but he doesn't deserve this position yet. I also think is far too high now as it is. is the character I'd personally put behind Ness, and even above Ryu. Whilst he's not any Top Player's main, he's an extremely strong secondary for many. So that should put him somewhat higher than current imo.

So far I'd rank the list like;

I'd let and switch places, is good. is also very logical, so I agree with those, however I'd put > > . However, with his recent results, I think could also be put in this tier. Same with . I even would argue is more viable than .

Next character I'd seriously rank higher is . Ally is no joke with him. Thanks to him, I'd rank him above even .

Since the next batch of characters aren't nearly as common, nor viable, am gonna put less input in the southern part of the tier list.

So far my list goes:

SHEIK:

S:

A:

A-:

B+:

B-:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

ZELDA:

This list is solid tbh. To my knowledge, it seems accurate.

But before someone says it, because someone says it every time, please, allow me.
"MY MAIN IS TOO LOW. THE BOTTOM CHARACTERS ARE UNDERRATED AND THE TOP ONES ARE OVERRATED FOR THE FOLLOWING INCORRECT REASONS: [...]"

 

[Diddy Kong]

To be honest, I even want to rank Mewtwo higher because of him getting results in Japan thus meaning he´s got far more potential than most. But that´d be a source of heavy disagreement here. Even though I could potentially seeing him being as viable as say, Lucas or Falco.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's an alright list, I'd REALLY only move Ryu up above Falcon and Mario (char is ridonk I'm sorry).

Otherwise it's mostly agreeable and half decent I guess. I would say Shaya would come in with the infraction but he hasn't been around for a while. Maybe the spooky Halloween ghosts took him : (

 

[Horseketchup]

Until there's even a rough matchup chart out there, I can't take any tier list seriously that has each character ranked precisely from left to right within each tier.


The absurd amount characters and matchups in the game make it so hard to rank every character with a level of certainty, especially when there are lots of characters that haven't been widely explored. It's just not realistic to be able to understand the nuances of every character to a degree that someone can justify placing a character 42nd as opposed to 43rd or 44th, and so on across the list. It's much more reasonable to organize characters into general tiers, where there's a recognition that you can't possibly understand all of the mu's in the game well enough to rank everyone in such a precise and specific order.

 

[Routa]

*sees Swordfighter below Brawler*

I would like to know the reasoning behind Mii Brawlers high placing compared to other Miis Diddy Kong . As far as I know many of the Mii mains think that Brawler is pretty much the worst out of Miis when Guest 1111 is the thing. I presume the Miis in the tier list were Guest 1111.

I'm not salty at all...
And sorry for asking.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think using as a metric for viability is a bit flawed since perceptions of him are all over the place. is relatively consistent.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I agree fully with the Top Tier order being . This order makes a lot of sense. No questions asked.

However, even though Ness usage is decreasing, > I think. Ryu is doing well, but he doesn't deserve this position yet. I also think is far too high now as it is. is the character I'd personally put behind Ness, and even above Ryu. Whilst he's not any Top Player's main, he's an extremely strong secondary for many. So that should put him somewhat higher than current imo.

So far I'd rank the list like;

I'd let and switch places, is good. is also very logical, so I agree with those, however I'd put > > . However, with his recent results, I think could also be put in this tier. Same with . I even would argue is more viable than .

Next character I'd seriously rank higher is . Ally is no joke with him. Thanks to him, I'd rank him above even .

Since the next batch of characters aren't nearly as common, nor viable, am gonna put less input in the southern part of the tier list.

So far my list goes:

SHEIK:

S:

A:

A-:

B+:

B-:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

ZELDA:

Couple of questions:

Why is Rosalina above Pika? Doesn't Pika win more MUs?

Why is Kirby top 30? He's essily bottom 20 at best.

Shouldn't Ryu be higher? He has the theory, rep, and results to be higher.

 

[Planty]

Why is Rosalina above Pika? Doesn't Pika win more MUs?

Why is Kirby top 30? He's essily bottom 20 at best.

First, Kirby being top 30 and being bottom 20 means a few spots difference...

Next, ya Rosalina gets overrated if we're going by matchups. If we judge purely through matchups, she's in the lower end of top 10, possibly not even in it. It's the results that push her.

 

[Vermanubis]

Really interesting to hear your input on this Verm. When I say that people didn't know the MU, they may have known the general game plan, but there are instances in your sets where they just commit to stuff uneccesarily.

The way I see it, the only thing Ganondorf can punish in neutral is greed. For example I saw your set against a Lucario in grand finals and he lost the first game by jumping near you and getting faired. There's never any reason to jump near a Ganondorf in neutral. He played the MU quite well in passages but then also did a lot of uneccesarily unsafe stuff. I think people just get impatient because it's not fun playing that anal.

If you say it's possible to get in on non-committal people who just play shield-tootsies, then I'll believe it. Is your main thing against shields dash/pivot grab?

Of course! Naturally, some commit more than others, but as I progress higher into bracket, most of the people I fight don't overcommit as a rule, but as an exception (hopefully due in some part to actions on my part ) Hopefully you won't mind me directly quoting each point, just to make sure I don't go too far off topic.

The way I see it, the only thing Ganondorf can punish in neutral is greed.

In many cases, this is true. This is why, in neutral, I've learned to occupy 90% of my time with empty movement to force reactions rather than throwing out aerials (with a few exceptions). Against players like those in question, Ganon's best recourse is to very carefully bully movement (push to the corner, cramp a little bit) without committing too much, and then correctly predicting their offensive or defensive options. If no one minds me referencing my own video, one of our players, a Rosalina, plays just as we're describing: never jumps, intentionally moves in terse intervals to minimize risk, and shield is almost their exclusive defensive option:

Spoiler

My answer was/is to use a lot of empty movement to push into tight corners, and if they begin shielding a lot, use aerial flame choke (harder to react to and punish on reaction). So, to answer your last question, aerial flame choke and tomahawks are what I use to circumvent shields. Though these are all highly circumstantial, and as I mentioned before, require pretty extravagant guessing, the beauty is that Ganon is never genuinely invalided by virtue of the fact that he does have a number of ways to implement 50-50s with tomahawks, aerial flame chokes, etc. In the worst case of exclusive shielding, you have reliable tomahawks/aerial chokes. If they're not willing to eat these, then you can scare them into action. Though the payoff for either may be disproportionately low and risibly fringe, these are things, even if grasping at straws, Ganon can do.

It's frustrating, and it certainly justifies a low placement for Ganon. Furthermore, you're still right in most of what you say. The only thing I'm really adding is that, in spire of your correctness, Ganon still has enough creative potential to beat even those who play the MU perfectly, which is certainly more than I could say for Brawl Ganon. Maybe better stated, his creative potential is such that adequate player skill can close the gap.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I agree fully with the Top Tier order being . This order makes a lot of sense. No questions asked.

However, even though Ness usage is decreasing, > I think. Ryu is doing well, but he doesn't deserve this position yet. I also think is far too high now as it is. is the character I'd personally put behind Ness, and even above Ryu. Whilst he's not any Top Player's main, he's an extremely strong secondary for many. So that should put him somewhat higher than current imo.

So far I'd rank the list like;

I'd let and switch places, is good. is also very logical, so I agree with those, however I'd put > > . However, with his recent results, I think could also be put in this tier. Same with . I even would argue is more viable than .

Next character I'd seriously rank higher is . Ally is no joke with him. Thanks to him, I'd rank him above even .

Since the next batch of characters aren't nearly as common, nor viable, am gonna put less input in the southern part of the tier list.

So far my list goes:

SHEIK:

S:

A:

A-:

B+:

B-:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

ZELDA:

I would move Diddy above Pikachu, as well as remove the Miis entirely, but those are just personal changes. This list looks good overall.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Couple of questions:

Why is Rosalina above Pika? Doesn't Pika win more MUs?

Why is Kirby top 30? He's essily bottom 20 at best.

Shouldn't Ryu be higher? He has the theory, rep, and results to be higher.

Honestly, I only put Rosalina there because there are simply more people using her, and she beats people she beats badly. Pikachu is rather modestly represented with ESAM alone in Top players, so with that in mind, I think that Diddy should probably even take #4 spot. If ZeRo would´ve beaten Nairo with Diddy, I´d rank him #3 even.

Kirby I rank higher because of his matchup with Sheik. Otherwise he´s indeed a rather mediocore character. I actually think everyone else in his tier holds more potential than Kirby, yet they´ll all get beaten up badly by Sheik, and Kirby far less so. With that in mind, I could raise Lucario´s position to.

Ryu could indeed be higher, but as for now I think Ness and Captain Falcon´s history in acchievements give them the right to be above him untill a Ryu starts making some serious changes.

EDIT: You know guys, I´m just gonna put Diddy above Pikachu now. ZeRo has been using the character SO effectively lately (despite losing against Nairo´s ZSS which I think was quite lucky thanks to Up B kills) that it seems his Diddy and Sheik are on the same level once again. It´s only logical to put Diddy above Pikachu because of that I feel.

I really wanna see Dabuz vs ZeRo´s Diddy as to determine if I´ll rank Diddy above Rosalina to. But as of now, fourth spot will do.

EDIT 2: The removal of the Miis is something am also not against, as ranking them can be quite frustrating, and truth to be told, they aren´t exactly common or popular characters...

 

[Tri Knight]

@ Edge guarding conversation:
What makes Link so good at edge guarding is his versatility, walling ability and safety. He can have 2 or 3 long lasting hitboxes out together. Arrows force dodges/jumps vs far out opponents. Boomerang can be angled up or down and has a constant attack going out which is good vs horizontal sideB recoveries and forces reactions. Bombs can be thrown up near the ledge to limit stalling, thrown down at low recoveries to combo into Nair/Dair and Z dropped for stage spikes. In addition to projectiles, his Fair cuts twice, Uair lasts frame 11-40, Nair 7-31 and Dair 14-64 all with good disjoint. Link's Ftilt reaches in an arc significantly below the ledge too.

Yet Link's edgeguarding is overhyped lol really.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm gonna have to ask you guys to cool it with the tier lists. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

First, Kirby being top 30 and being bottom 20 means a few spots difference...

Next, ya Rosalina gets overrated if we're going by matchups. If we judge purely through matchups, she's in the lower end of top 10, possibly not even in it. It's the results that push her.

Bottom 20 at best is 35 or worse, and he's ranked 29th. One of the only things in kind of against.

I'm gonna have to ask you guys to cool it with the tier lists. This is getting ridiculous.

Are MU charts okay or naw?

 

[Dre89]

Of course! Naturally, some commit more than others, but as I progress higher into bracket, most of the people I fight don't overcommit as a rule, but as an exception (hopefully due in some part to actions on my part ) Hopefully you won't mind me directly quoting each point, just to make sure I don't go too far off topic.

The way I see it, the only thing Ganondorf can punish in neutral is greed.

In many cases, this is true. This is why, in neutral, I've learned to occupy 90% of my time with empty movement to force reactions rather than throwing out aerials (with a few exceptions). Against players like those in question, Ganon's best recourse is to very carefully bully movement (push to the corner, cramp a little bit) without committing too much, and then correctly predicting their offensive or defensive options. If no one minds me referencing my own video, one of our players, a Rosalina, plays just as we're describing: never jumps, intentionally moves in terse intervals to minimize risk, and shield is almost their exclusive defensive option:

Spoiler

My answer was/is to use a lot of empty movement to push into tight corners, and if they begin shielding a lot, use aerial flame choke (harder to react to and punish on reaction). So, to answer your last question, aerial flame choke and tomahawks are what I use to circumvent shields. Though these are all highly circumstantial, and as I mentioned before, require pretty extravagant guessing, the beauty is that Ganon is never genuinely invalided by virtue of the fact that he does have a number of ways to implement 50-50s with tomahawks, aerial flame chokes, etc. In the worst case of exclusive shielding, you have reliable tomahawks/aerial chokes. If they're not willing to eat these, then you can scare them into action. Though the payoff for either may be disproportionately low and risibly fringe, these are things, even if grasping at straws, Ganon can do.

It's frustrating, and it certainly justifies a low placement for Ganon. Furthermore, you're still right in most of what you say. The only thing I'm really adding is that, in spire of your correctness, Ganon still has enough creative potential to beat even those who play the MU perfectly, which is certainly more than I could say for Brawl Ganon.

That's really insightful. I didn't know aerial choke was quicker.

So where do you think he compares to the other heavies?