Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[KakuCP9]

ZELDA:

S:

A:

A-:

B+:

B-:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

SHEIK:

FTFY
But seriously though, solid list man.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The only guy who could stop the their list phenomenon is a knight that died ages ago. The knight I'm referring to was so swift and precise with his strikes that some could experience 3 in one post. So, this is in remembrance of R.I.P Shaya the great.

In all seriousness, maybe this thread should be put on hold.

 

[Vermanubis]

That's really insightful. I didn't know aerial choke was quicker.

So where do you think he compares to the other heavies?

Ah, I should've clarified. It's not necessarily quicker, rather, when he's in the air like that, he has a lot more maneuverability, can get past grounded obstacles (Luma, for example), and it covers jumps. So, though not quicker, per se, it's harder to react to, since it gives you a lot more to think about when he jumps than when he's just sitting in front of you/running toward you. And again, it's still a very niche option, but one which can be vitally important in MUs like Rosa.

As for comparison to the other heavies, I think he's the lowest of them, just because as I've mentioned before, Ganon has tools to deal with his problems, but they're not consistent. I think the likes of Zard, Bowser, etc. have less destructive potential than Ganon, but can consistently cope with their obstacles without having to constantly guess.

For the math people in the crowd, were I to graph the the relationship between low and high-level MU knowledge and the resulting difficulty for the heavies, the other heavies would be pretty linear -- opponent MU knowledge is proportional to adjustments needed, whereas Ganon would be like... x^3

 

[Diddy Kong]

Considerations Tier List:

Move Diddy above Rosalina
Move Kirby down to bottom end of his Tier
Move Mewtwo up to top of his Tier
Remove all the Miis entirely
Move up Lucario 2 spots because of better Sheik matchup
Put Ryu above C.Falcon but not Ness

 

[Wintropy]

But at the same time, you can say that the move isn't great in a vacuum because being slow and easy to shield are properties of the move just like invincibility and the ability to kill. These attributes are all relative, so it's actually impossible to say one way or another if moves are great in a vacuum or not. Pit's side-b for instance may have kill power, but what if every other move in the game has twice as much kill power and every other character is killing at 30-40? Kill power by itself "in a vacuum" (in the truest sense) is just a number, like 53 or 74; without comparing it to other numbers, you can't say whether that's good or bad or average.

In general, "in a vacuum" is a hand-wave phrase, an excuse to justify looking at something from a different angle. What people actually mean to say is, "selectively ignoring factors x, y, and z, this move is great," which is another way of theorycrafting just like these types of questions: "What if this move were on another character?" or "What if this knockback angle applied to this other character's special?" Or more to the point, "What if ZSS' d-throw were attached to a character with a normal grab?" or "What if ZSS had a normal grab?" These questions are useful insofar as asking them increases our fundamental understanding of the game and its mechanics, but we should understand what we are trying to say when we use the phrase as opposed to what the phrase actually means.

Yes, I know, and I agree with you, but that isn't the point. @Dee-SmashinBoss asked what "vacuum" means in a semantic sense, and I explained.

I did say not to read into the Pit thing. It was purely a cogent demonstration of a phrase's meaning.

 

[Yikarur]

The thing is that Mii Brawler lacks the combos and ACs that he has in smaller size. Swordfighter in the other hand still has some combos and ACs. Also the speed which is provided from Guest size is not very good for character like Brawler whose moveset is made for comboing (shortly said he lacks speed). Swordfighter can still do well within Guest size when all moves are allowed. Having Up-B that is near as strong as ZSS's does not remove the flaws of the character.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Default Mii Brawler has really good combos, strings and juggling game. You seem very unfamiliar with Mii Brawler, because every Aerial of Mii Brawler does autocancel in a short hop, except fair. Even short hop fast fall does autocancel on upair and bair (timed).
I'm playing Guest-size Mii Brawler for over a half year already actively in tournaments and I can insure that Mii Brawler does not suffer the problems you've mentioned.

 

[Ffamran]

Hmm... Vermanubis , would Ganondorf's "last hit" of Fair be useful in any scenario? As in the hitbox below him. I could see a fake whiff where a player who didn't know would think they could slip under Ganondorf only to get slapped back, but considering it's kind of an isolated hitbox where Ganondorf fist isn't arcing down and making use of the entire hitbox, it might not be useful... This could also go to Ike, Shulk, and Sheik? players as well and other characters with arcing hits like that.

 

[Vipermoon]

The only guy who could stop the their list phenomenon is a knight that died ages ago. The knight I'm referring to was so swift and precise with his strikes that some could experience 3 in one post. So, this is in remembrance of R.I.P Shaya the great.

In all seriousness, maybe this thread should be put on hold.

Wait what happened to Shaya? I've noticed his absence for a while now.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Default Mii Brawler has really good combos, strings and juggling game. You seem very unfamiliar with Mii Brawler, because every Aerial of Mii Brawler does autocancel in a short hop, except fair. Even short hop fast fall does autocancel on upair and bair (timed).
I'm playing Guest-size Mii Brawler for over a half year already actively in tournaments and I can insure that Mii Brawler does not suffer the problems you've mentioned.

I've noticed a tendency with Mii players that they seem to want every advantage they can get. I mean, it's understandable. Why would you give up that which makes your character better, whether it's moves or sizes? However, it wouldn't surprise me if some players were unwilling to lab less than ideal sizes.

You know, this is totally against competitive spirit, but I would rather custom costumes be allowed than custom sizes/moves. There's just something more satisfying about seeing "Proto Man" or "Jacky Bryant" than "Guest B."

 

[zeldasmash]

So far my list goes:

SHEIK:

S:

A:

A-:

B+:

B-:

C:

D+:

D-:

E:

ZELDA:

Aside from Samus being a bit too low (D- is good enough), this list is pretty solid.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Instead of just talking about a character's shortcomings and strengths, why don't we also talk about what the character requires from and what the character gives the player? Like, playing mario requires fundamentals, playing Ganon more will teach you how to be patient, etc..

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Aside from Samus being a bit too low (D- is good enough), this list is pretty solid.

You gonna give reasons or am I just supposed to take your word for it?

 

[Vermanubis]

Hmm... Vermanubis , would Ganondorf's "last hit" of Fair be useful in any scenario? As in the hitbox below him. I could see a fake whiff where a player who didn't know would think they could slip under Ganondorf only to get slapped back, but considering it's kind of an isolated hitbox where Ganondorf fist isn't arcing down and making use of the entire hitbox, it might not be useful... This could also go to Ike, Shulk, and Sheik? players as well and other characters with arcing hits like that.

I mean, it's entirely possible! For me, personally, though, I can't see much practical utility coming from it. Were the hitbox bigger, it would be a great way to bait backrolls then spank 'em for thinking they can escape fate, but the hitbox is just so small that it'd be in the supreme order of shenaniganons.

 

[zeldasmash]

You gonna give reasons or am I just supposed to take your word for it?

Samus has one of the best SHAD games. SHAD Nair is really good for getting people off you. Charge Shot is a really good projectile that people have to respect as it can turn a match around pretty quickly. She has really good grab combos that are pretty damaging, has a good edge-guard game and can survive for days due to weight and good recovery.

Me personally i think she is a bit better than Swordfighter & Ganondorf and is definitely better than Jiggs.

 

[Rikkhan]

So the tipical FG mario "combo" down throw + Uptilt + Uptilt + Uptilt + etc, at low percents it doesn't register as a "true combo" in training mode however it's not posible to air dodge or jump and even if you could its no use since you still get hit if you jump and you are to close to the ground that you get landing lag if you air dodge, the only answers is either make a very fast attack or DI away but you still take a few hits. So doing this to a character than can't put a fast move like for example falcon it will be technically a true combo?

Another example if Mario do a falling Uair to ryu at 15% ryu can't do anything (not even focus attack) until he is on the ground and he even has a few frames of landing lag. So any move that hits ryu before he can pop his shield would be technically a true combo?

If this is right it will mean there is actually a lot of combos you can pull at low percent but training mode lies you. Am I right?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Charge Shot is a really good projectile that people have to respect as it can turn a match around pretty quickly.

Or, you know, they can just use a move that outprioritizes it, shield it, reflect it or just outright dodge it, all of which leave Samus vulnerable due to Charge Shot's lag. It's a good projectile...if you can land it.

She has really good grab combos that are pretty damaging

...if you even let her grab you, which you shouldn't be trying to do with Samus anyways. And the lag on a whiffed Samus grab is so terrible I've charged forward smashes and still KO'd Samus before she could do anything. As Charizard. Granted, it's against a Level 9 CPU, but that's still indicative of how bad the lag on Samus' grab is.

has a good edge-guard game

If you consider Samus to have a good edge guarding game, I dare you to gimp a Villager main with Samus. Her edgeguarding is laughably predictable, and all her options can be outprioritized by most recovery moves in the game.

and can survive for days due to weight and good recovery.

Dude, Samus has pretty awful recovery. I've managed to gimp her at below 100% with Charizard. She has almost no horizontal recovery options outside of tether and a single bombjumb, which is not very useful in a situation where she's far from the ledge, and close to the ledge she'll still be at risk of getting gimped or spiked. Screw Attack is decent, but not as a recovery move, where all she can do is go straight up and into a move that will outprioritize it. Her floatyness means she dies early and her bad recovery options make her pretty easy to gimp.

Me personally i think she is a bit better than Swordfighter & Ganondorf and is definitely better than Jiggs.

Jiggs and Swordfighter, maybe, but Ganondorf? Not quite. She has a range advantage, but her laggy moves make her basically Ganon's ***** if she so much as misses one Charge Shot or grab; and with Ganon's punish game, that punish will strike her hard and send her flying. She is not better than Ganondorf, in fact she has an even harder time with Sheik than Ganon does because of her floatyness, poor recovery and laggy moves.

 

[IsmaR]

If you consider Samus to have a good edge guarding game, I dare you to gimp a Villager main with Samus. Her edgeguarding is laughably predictable, and all her options can be outprioritized by most recovery moves in the game.

Is this also taking a Lv. 9 CPU Samus into consideration?

Dude, Samus has pretty awful recovery. I've managed to gimp her at below 100% with Charizard. She has almost no horizontal recovery options outside of tether and a single bombjumb, which is not very useful in a situation where she's far from the ledge, and close to the ledge she'll still be at risk of getting gimped or spiked. Screw Attack is decent, but not as a recovery move, where all she can do is go straight up and into a move that will outprioritize it. Her floatyness means she dies early and her bad recovery options make her pretty easy to gimp.

So having more than a few horizontal recovery options makes her worse than characters who have no horizontal recovery options?

All I'm getting out of this is that you haven't faced a Samus that knows how to recover, much less have a good off stage game.

 

[Tri Knight]

...supreme order of shenaniganons.

Liked just for this.

Anyway I'd say Samus is bottom tier easy. Lower than Ganon. Id place her with Zelda. It's funny. Samus IS ZSS and yet the original is garbage compared to the new version. Then you got Zelda who IS Sheik and is, again, garbage to her counterpart form.

 

[meleebrawler]

Samus has one of the best SHAD games. SHAD Nair is really good for getting people off you. Charge Shot is a really good projectile that people have to respect as it can turn a match around pretty quickly. She has really good grab combos that are pretty damaging, has a good edge-guard game and can survive for days due to weight and good recovery.

Me personally i think she is a bit better than Swordfighter & Ganondorf and is definitely better than Jiggs.

Most of what you said also applies for Mewtwo, minus the weight and throw combos (though instead they just cause big damage). Samus's throw combos in of themselves aren't great, but she does have a great time during advantage in general.

Or, you know, they can just use a move that outprioritizes it, shield it, reflect it or just outright dodge it, all of which leave Samus vulnerable due to Charge Shot's lag. It's a good projectile...if you can land it.


...if you even let her grab you, which you shouldn't be trying to do with Samus anyways. And the lag on a whiffed Samus grab is so terrible I've charged forward smashes and still KO'd Samus before she could do anything. As Charizard. Granted, it's against a Level 9 CPU, but that's still indicative of how bad the lag on Samus' grab is.


If you consider Samus to have a good edge guarding game, I dare you to gimp a Villager main with Samus. Her edgeguarding is laughably predictable, and all her options can be outprioritized by most recovery moves in the game.


Dude, Samus has pretty awful recovery. I've managed to gimp her at below 100% with Charizard. She has almost no horizontal recovery options outside of tether and a single bombjumb, which is not very useful in a situation where she's far from the ledge, and close to the ledge she'll still be at risk of getting gimped or spiked. Screw Attack is decent, but not as a recovery move, where all she can do is go straight up and into a move that will outprioritize it. Her floatyness means she dies early and her bad recovery options make her pretty easy to gimp.


Jiggs and Swordfighter, maybe, but Ganondorf? Not quite. She has a range advantage, but her laggy moves make her basically Ganon's ***** if she so much as misses one Charge Shot or grab; and with Ganon's punish game, that punish will strike her hard and send her flying. She is not better than Ganondorf, in fact she has an even harder time with Sheik than Ganon does because of her floatyness, poor recovery and laggy moves.

...I don't see a lot of moves that can outprioritize a 26% (fresh) damage projectile. And while it definitely has more endlag than Mewtwo's it's not huge. Do you just always shoot it point-blank?

Saying Samus's edgeguarding isn't great because she can't do it consistently against Villager is a bit unfair. In fact I think the only character that could stand a chance of doing that is another Villager, and even then there's a lot of player shenanigans...
Samus's nair is a pretty legit semi-spike now by the way.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Most of what you said also applies for Mewtwo, minus the weight and throw combos (though instead they just cause big damage). Samus's throw combos in of themselves aren't great, but she does have a great time during advantage in general.

True, but again she has problems getting into an advantage in the first place due to most of her moves having either high lag or not really doing much damage. Outside of Charge Shot, she has very little in the way of reliable kill moves that aren't dependent on reads in some way.

...I don't see a lot of moves that can outprioritize a 26% (fresh) damage projectile. And while it definitely has more endlag than Mewtwo's it's not huge. Do you just always shoot it point-blank?

Flare Blitz is one, as is Megaman's Charge Shot, Flamethrower, Bowser's own Fire Breath, Needles, Paralyzer's shots...

Saying Samus's edgeguarding isn't great because she can't do it consistently against Villager is a bit unfair. In fact I think the only character that could stand a chance of doing that is another Villager, and even then there's a lot of player shenanigans...
Samus's nair is a pretty legit semi-spike now by the way.

Maybe, but Samus has trouble with edgeguarding a lot of the more prevalent characters in the meta except Diddy, Sonic and Shiek. Against Zamus, she has trouble because Zamus has every advantage she has, but is more proficient at it. Against Rosa, she has to be quick about punishing Rosa's recovery since if not she'll probably be getting back to the stage thanks to how incredible her USpecial is at recovering, and I've already touched Villager. Hell, even against Mario she has issues, since Mario can counter everything she does with either Cape or FAir.

 

[Nobie]

True, but again she has problems getting into an advantage in the first place due to most of her moves having either high lag or not really doing much damage. Outside of Charge Shot, she has very little in the way of reliable kill moves that aren't dependent on reads in some way.


Flare Blitz is one, as is Megaman's Charge Shot, Flamethrower, Bowser's own Fire Breath, Needles, Paralyzer's shots...

Mega Man's charge shot is transcendent, so the projectiles pass through each other. On top of that, Mega Man takes time to charge, the charge shot travels less far, and you almost never EVER want to trade Mega Man Charge Shot vs. the faster and stronger Samus charge shot.

 

[LancerStaff]

Flare Blitz is one, as is Megaman's Charge Shot, Flamethrower, Bowser's own Fire Breath, Needles, Paralyzer's shots...

Pretty sure transcendent moves don't clash or cause clashes...

 

[Jehtt]

Flare Blitz is one, as is Megaman's Charge Shot, Flamethrower, Bowser's own Fire Breath, Needles, Paralyzer's shots...

Are you just guessing or are you actually citing based on experience? Mega Man's F-smash is transcendent so it won't "beat" it, it'll just go right through.

 

[Kaladin]

Disclaimer: I am bad at the game. I've never personally been to a tournament, and I don't, like, win things other than for glory. That said, I like to think I have a good understanding of the game/meta as a whole, I just can't commit the time to git gud.

Ad I see it, there a five clumps of characters that matter:

Top tier, meaning solo viable to win a national.

Really good tier, meaning viable to win a national with a secondary for crippling matchups.

Secondary tier, meaning not solo viable to win a national, but can be a valuable secondary -- ESAM using Samus.

Bad tier, meaning that you won't place at a national without a good secondary that you use for the majority of your matches, and that they won't be a useful secondary for a character in a higher tier, from a purely matchup based standpoint.
-Not ordered within tiers
-Players assumed roughly equal skill
-Meta is taken into account -- a character is more viable if no one knows how to fight it; conversely, being invalidated by a character that no one plays won't drop you a tier. (Say, Luigi vs Pacman)
Top Tier:
Really Good Tier:(?)
Secondary Tier:(?)
Bad Tier: (I think ganon is very borderline)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Tier: +++

pls dnt hrt meh

 

[Antonykun]

to anyone who believes Swordfighter is "bottom 5" or "weaker than commonly perceived bottom 5 character" please state your reasoning. I want to see how much i can disprove or just get to see what you value in a viable character

 

[Apeirohaon]

to anyone who believes Swordfighter is "bottom 5" or "weaker than commonly perceived bottom 5 character" please state your reasoning. I want to see how much i can disprove or just get to see what you value in a viable character

I'm guessing he meant that he didn't want to place them because of legality issues and such

 

[Kaladin]

It's because I know absolutely nothing about miis, so I'm not going to pretend I do. *glances pointedly at other posters*

 

[Macedonian]

The only guy who could stop the their list phenomenon is a knight that died ages ago. The knight I'm referring to was so swift and precise with his strikes that some could experience 3 in one post. So, this is in remembrance of R.I.P Shaya the great.

In all seriousness, maybe this thread should be put on hold.

Hey I don't always post here, but I've been looking at this thread on and off for months, back on version one of this thread. I really don't want this thread and see no need for it to.

Honestly this game is not figured out. As long as that's the case people will always discuss what character is better or worse then the other, and what better place to do that then here.

Really we have idea what the full Impact off the shield changes too, that's a major change and all of the tier list I've seen last couple pages look like they are the exact same tier lost as before the patch, somthing has to of change I'd wager.

 

[Amadeus9]

This thread needs to be nuked. Where's Shaya?

Also, how can anyone justify pikachu being top 5, ever. Be real please. We literally covered this... 2 weeks ago? Dabuz came in and called BS. Does no one remember? Damn broken record.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This thread needs to be nuked. Where's Shaya?

Also, how can anyone justify pikachu being top 5, ever. Be real please. We literally covered this... 2 weeks ago? Dabuz came in and called BS. Does no one remember? Damn broken record.

I think Shaya's been Grabbed By the Ghoulies(tm).

Really though, yeah I think we could stand for a new thread and a fresh start mayhap?

 

[Jehtt]

Starting a new thread won't do anything, you will get the same people posting the same stuff, just without 364 pages of stuff before it.
What we actually need is a moderator to come around and start infracting people who posts tier lists without giving reasoning for why they put each character where.

 

[Antonykun]

It's because I know absolutely nothing about miis, so I'm not going to pretend I do. *glances pointedly at other posters*

I'm not talking about your tier which puts the Mii's in the Unicorn Tier

I'm talking about statements like

Me personally i think [Samus] is a bit better than Swordfighter

[Samus is better than] Jiggs and Swordfighter, maybe

I really want to know their line of reasoning

Swordfighter has gotten the ****tiest luck when it comes to viability perception. Around 2-3 months since the 3DS game came out in Japan, Swordfighter was put as the worst character in the game. "Why?" "He just is." I originally became a Swordfighter main just so I can know why he's "the worst character in Smash 4". I eventually learned why but that will be for another post.

Point is Swordfighter was put in bottom tier and no one really knew why, and the effects of that have seriously plauged the Mii to this day. People were willing to make a "Swordfighter Tier" basically saying Swordfighter wasn't just the worst character in the game, he is also so bad that he is explicitly worse than Zelda/Samus/DDD/(w/e). Swordfighter was never that bad he had and still has access to some amazing buttons that gave him a good (if unrewarding, pre-buffs) neutral while also having a above average edgeguarding game with D-air/B-air/Counter/Stone Scabbard. Even Still when people make Tier lists they almost always do it so Swordfighter is el facto worst of the Mii's by at least a tier margin.

Even now after Swordfighter getting buffs that rival those of Ike's, people still are so quick to dismiss swordfighter's viability with little to no explanation. Every other "Bottom 5" character in Smash 4 has a laundry list of weaknesses and non-strengths that allow for actual arguments to be made for them to be "the worst character in smash 4"

This is why i want to know why you think Swordfighter is bad even if it is so Swordfighter can get the Laudry list to become a "Bottom 5"

 

[Vipermoon]

There are lots of "moderators" who post in here. I don't think most of us would mind if you started moderating.

 

[Antonykun]

There are lots of "moderators" who post in here. I don't think most of us would mind if you started moderating.

thats because moderators that aren't global mods, like AEMehr for example (also hi), can't really moderate around here very well IIRC. They are stuck within their domains

 

[Amadeus9]

Problem is people don't fear posting crap because all they ever get is a slap on the wrist, posting a tier list should just be an auto 3 day ban from thread

 

[KirbySquad101]

I'm not talking about your tier which puts the Mii's in the Unicorn Tier

I'm talking about statements like


I really want to know their line of reasoning

Swordfighter has gotten the ****tiest luck when it comes to viability perception. Around 2-3 months since the 3DS game came out in Japan, Swordfighter was put as the worst character in the game. "Why?" "He just is." I originally became a Swordfighter main just so I can know why he's "the worst character in Smash 4". I eventually learned why but that will be for another post.

Point is Swordfighter was put in bottom tier and no one really knew why, and the effects of that have seriously plauged the Mii to this day. People were willing to make a "Swordfighter Tier" basically saying Swordfighter wasn't just the worst character in the game, he is also so bad that he is explicitly worse than Zelda/Samus/DDD/(w/e). Swordfighter was never that bad he had and still has access to some amazing buttons that gave him a good (if unrewarding, pre-buffs) neutral while also having a above average edgeguarding game with D-air/B-air/Counter/Stone Scabbard. Even Still when people make Tier lists they almost always do it so Swordfighter is el facto worst of the Mii's by at least a tier margin.

Even now after Swordfighter getting buffs that rival those of Ike's, people still are so quick to dismiss swordfighter's viability with little to no explanation. Every other "Bottom 5" character in Smash 4 has a laundry list of weaknesses and non-strengths that allow for actual arguments to be made for them to be "the worst character in smash 4"

This is why i want to know why you think Swordfighter is bad even if it is so Swordfighter can get the Laudry list to become a "Bottom 5"

I'm guessing most people get their info from the SmashWiki, which basically goes on to say that Mii Swordfighter is just a ****ty version of Mii Brawler. For those of you who think Swordfighter is bottom 5:

• Down tilt damage: 6% → 8%
• Neutral aerial damage: 5% → 8%
• Hero's Spin (grounded) damage: 12-16% → 14-19%

1.0.8

• Jab improved; it has 2 less frames of startup, transitions faster, and link all hits more reliably. It additionally has less ending lag.
• Forward tilt has less ending lag.
• Dash attack's hitboxes are larger.
• Down smash has less ending lag.
• Neutral aerial has 2 less frames of ending lag.
• Forward aerial has larger hitboxes, in addition to reduced landing lag.
  • Back aerial deals 2% more damage, with the increased knockback making it a more reliable KO move.
• Airborne Assault launches at a lower trajectory.

1.1.0

• Up smash hitbox timings changed.
• Power Thrust: Repeated hits weight knockback 10 -> 22, final hitbox size 4.5 units -> 5.1 units
• Grounded Slash Launcher attack lasts for 2 more frames.
• Chakram has less endlag: 62 → 52 frames.
• Shuriken of Light 1.2%/3.2%/4.8%/8.8% -> 2%/4%/6.6%/10%
• Reversal Slash end frame reduced 40 → 38
• Slash Launcher start up reduced 17 → 13 frames.
• Skyward Slash Dash now gives the Swordfighter some momentum at the end of the move, increasing its distance.

These are the list of buffs Swordfighter has gotten. Really makes you wonder how someone who's gotten buffs this good still be considered on the same level of viability of someone like Jiggs (who has gotten NO buffs since pre-patch), huh?

 

[AEMehr]

thats because moderators that aren't global mods, like AEMehr for example (also hi), can't really moderate around here very well IIRC. They are stuck within their domains

Oh hi.

Uh yeah, mods that have specific boards assigned to them can only moderate the sections they are assigned to.

EDIT: Wait.

Considerations Tier List:
Remove all the Miis entirely

No.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm guessing most people get their info from the SmashWiki, which basically goes on to say that Mii Swordfighter is just a ****ty version of Mii Brawler. For those of you who think Swordfighter is bottom 5:

• Down tilt damage: 6% → 8%
• Neutral aerial damage: 5% → 8%
• Hero's Spin (grounded) damage: 12-16% → 14-19%

1.0.8

• Jab improved; it has 2 less frames of startup, transitions faster, and link all hits more reliably. It additionally has less ending lag.
• Forward tilt has less ending lag.
• Dash attack's hitboxes are larger.
• Down smash has less ending lag.
• Neutral aerial has 2 less frames of ending lag.
• Forward aerial has larger hitboxes, in addition to reduced landing lag.
  • Back aerial deals 2% more damage, with the increased knockback making it a more reliable KO move.
• Airborne Assault launches at a lower trajectory.

1.1.0

• Up smash hitbox timings changed.
• Power Thrust: Repeated hits weight knockback 10 -> 22, final hitbox size 4.5 units -> 5.1 units
• Grounded Slash Launcher attack lasts for 2 more frames.
• Chakram has less endlag: 62 → 52 frames.
• Shuriken of Light 1.2%/3.2%/4.8%/8.8% -> 2%/4%/6.6%/10%
• Reversal Slash end frame reduced 40 → 38
• Slash Launcher start up reduced 17 → 13 frames.
• Skyward Slash Dash now gives the Swordfighter some momentum at the end of the move, increasing its distance.

These are the list of buffs Swordfighter has gotten. Really makes you wonder how someone who's gotten buffs this good still be considered on the same level of viability of someone like Jiggs (who has gotten NO buffs since pre-patch), huh?

It can't really be that bad...
*follows link*
*Swordfighter gets negatively compared to Brawler whose a completely different character*
*brief mention of walling and combos*
*no mention of edgeguarding*

btw Aerial Assault's trajectory change is a 100% buff Swordfighter used to SD of an unwanted AA

also I disagree with your logic on buffs, If let's say Swordfighter really was "Swordfighter Tier" aka Absolute Trash then getting those buffs might only make his as good as the other "Bottom 2-5" characters.

In reality though the D-tilt buff is bae and it really helped Swordfighter with his footsie game

 

[Sir Tundra]

There seems to be alot of tier list being made in this thread as of late.I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that tier list are very controversial in this thread,there is clearly no winner when it comes to making a tier list since not everyone's gonna agree with what you post. Some guy might say Character "X" is too high or Character "Y" is too low etc. You might just get a couple people who'll agree with you hell some might even agree with you 100% but the chance's of that happening are very slim. Things only get worse when your making a tier list for a game when that game is being patched every 2-3 months giving us very little time to adapt to the changes.
In the end of the day no matter how much you lab/research there's just no winning when it comes to making a perfect tier list for a game like smash 4 you'll have alot of people disagreeing with you or even have some people bash you at worse.

btw @Trifroze that tier list is really solid imo your tier list only fault is roy and marth placement but other then its almost spot on.

With Shaya gone it seems like this thread has truly spiraled out of control with tier list, arguments about docs recovery, and matchup spreads. Not gonna lie here but I have to shift the blame of the last one on me since I'm the guy who actually started making a matchup chart as a way to show the progress of my guide which is still in development mind you. of course I only added characters who're mostly seen in tournaments/characters I mostly know about. You guys added every single character in the game.

Regardless I kinda have to agree with what Jehtt here I think if we were to nuke this thread and make another viability ratings thread who is to say that the same thing won't happen again? I mean were most likely gonna have the same amount of people from this thread and the cycle will repeat itself. I think the best we should do is maybe wait a couple weeks see if shaya comes back from whatever he's dealing with right now. If he doesn't come back from then we might need to take some drastic turns and have another mod take over. Someone who's been a mod for quite a while and take over shayas place untill he comes back. That is if he even does come back.

 

[KirbySquad101]

It can't really be that bad...
*follows link*
*Swordfighter gets negatively compared to Brawler whose a completely different character*
*brief mention of walling and combos*
*no mention of edgeguarding*

btw Aerial Assault's trajectory change is a 100% buff Swordfighter used to SD of an unwanted AA

also I disagree with your logic on buffs, If let's say Swordfighter really was "Swordfighter Tier" aka Absolute Trash then getting those buffs might only make his as good as the other "Bottom 2-5" characters.

In reality though the D-tilt buff is bae and it really helped Swordfighter with his footsie game

If you think that's bad then you should see how they talk about Mewtwo lol

(Seriously, though, guys, stop going to SmashWiki for evidence; anyone can edit the page.)

Oh, I am aware that buffs can only bring someone from complete trash to "less" trash, but I was just kind of under the impression that no one was in their own league of "bad" in SSB4 pre-release. XD

(Also, side question, how good is Swordfighter's B-Air? I always thought it was one of his better moves, thanks to its quick start-up, damage, and relatively low landing lag).

There seems to be alot of tier list being made in this thread as of late.I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that tier list are very controversial in this thread,there is clearly no winner when it comes to making a tier list since not everyone's gonna agree with what you post. Some guy might say Character "X" is too high or Character "Y" is too low etc. You might just get a couple people who'll agree with you hell some might even agree with you 100% but the chance's of that happening are very slim. Things only get worse when your making a tier list for a game when that game is being patched every 2-3 months giving us very little time to adapt to the changes.
In the end of the day no matter how much you lab/research there's just no winning when it comes to making a perfect tier list for a game like smash 4 you'll have alot of people disagreeing with you or even have some people bash you at worse.

btw @Trifroze that tier list is really solid imo your tier list only fault is roy and marth placement but other then its almost spot on.

With Gone Shaya gone it seems like this thread has truely spiraled out of control with tier list, arguments about docs recovery, and matchup spreads. Not gonna lie here but I have to shift the blame of the last one on me since I'm the guy who actually started making a matchup thread as a way to show the progress of my guide which is still in development mind you. of course I only added characters who're mostly seen in tournaments/characters I mostly know about. You guys added every single character in the game.

Regardless I kinda have to agree with what Jehtt here I think if we were to nuke this thread and make another viability ratings thread who is to say that the same thing won't happen again? I mean were most likely gonna have the same amount of people from this thread and the cycle will repeat itself. I think the best we should do is maybe wait a couple weeks see if shaya comes back from whatever he's dealing with right now. If he doesn't come back from then we might need to take some drastic turns and have another mod take over. Someone who's been a mod for quite a while and take over shayas place untill he comes back. That is if he even does come back.

Seems on point; there is very little control on this site, I have to admit