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All you have to do to stop fireball spam is to perfect shield or jab them. It's not that hard
Sure they can say that they dont think MK is overpowered but reading into the posts themselves gives a totally different impression and it doesnt seem like im the only one who got it.
Jabbing projectiles generally leaves you at a disadvantage.
By now I'm thinking that you get that impression because you want to get that impression. Seriously, you're reading too much into it. They're debating on MK's Luigi-ness and if changing him would be a good idea. That's it.
Easier to throw them out though.
My bad, about %120 and above it does become a 50/50 kill set up. I thought you meant that meta knight has a kill set-up in the Low to mid percent range. Usually most characters die between %90-119, because da to up b is a kill combo.
Not entirely sure how things are now with added shieldstun for Zard(probably worse) but Zard generally was like Ganon in that most of his high tier MUs are an uphill battle, but are still winnable outside of a couple exceptions. Mostly Zard has a very limited neutral and relies on his punish game to function. He can play defense very well but has issues with turtling opponents. Really rage is great for him and pre-patch you always had to be respectful of his shield. Against many high tiers he loses neutral badly but doesn't need many opportunities to end a stock, especially with rage, and lives quite a while vs. Sheik. Zero Suit cares nothing for his survivability and completely trashes him, so that's a huge problem for him. Going forward the shieldstun changes should hurt him overall, though I'm not sure how much, since his two biggest strengths in the grab-shield-attack RPS were his OOS game, which was directly nerfed, and his great grab reward, which was indirectly nerfed. He's generally lacking in safe pokes, and also isn't as much a threat to challenge opponents with hitboxes as someone like Ganon. Don't know how bad he'll be under the new shieldstun meta, but he already was pretty marginal at best, and will probably be completely irrelevant barring future buffs. Granted powershielding can somewhat work around this and his pokes do become a bit better, but these apply to everyone else too and I'm pretty sure he's a net loser here, even if he doesn't plummet to the absolute bottom. Zard is only remotely useful meta-wise if shields are strong, and even then it's an uphill battle.
And you respond
All you do is emphasize his point. MK is good. He has good specs, and his moves are good. It's just that a few specific moves overshadow everything else to such an extent that you rarely, if ever, need to use them. Did prepatch Diddy have good stuff besides Dthrow and Upair? Yes, but there was little reason to use them. Does Luigi have good moves besides Dashgrab and Fireballs? Yes, but why risk it? Does Sheik have good moves besides Fair and Needles? Absolutely, but if you want to play safe, those are usually your best options. Etc. etc. The point being made is that the developers have clearly been patching out these kinds of overshadowing aspects, and I can definitely see that being changed, if they ever make changes to MK. Literally every MK I've seen has revolved around trying to get those low percent kills with Shuttle Loop. Do good MKs use other things? Yes, but they'd also love to get crazy low percent kills if they can.
I just don't think it's good practice to challenge anything that can potentially put you in an intense disadvantage state, beyond being totally sure that it's going to pay off, or if the reward outweighs the risk.
An MK main can (and will) correct me, but i believe that once he gets going DI can't save you, it can only confuse the MK player into dropping the combo. But as long as they read what direction you DI, they can keep juggling you. I believe there was one time last weekend Abadango showcased that very easily because he had to turn around in the middle to continue the string. I know for a fact you can DI the first hit of shutte loop. But you can also aim the second hit.
Honestly, I hope Ryu becomes more popular and the hype factor of Shoryken dies down so people can better evaluate how crazy this move is. 9B using true Shoryken 2-3 times in a row and getting away with it gave me Brawl Shuttle Loop flashbacks.
So are link's arrows, doc pills etc. Luigi's gameplan of fireballs and dash grab is a gross overexaggeration. Only doing that as luigi would guarantee your failure. That's like me saying all Link mains do is spam rolls and arrows. Bad luigi mains get owned by more skilled players. As overrated luigi was, no one took the luigi mains skill in account which is offensive to luigi players
Pretty confident Link's arrows or Doc's pills don't lead into anything... Actually, I don't think either is nearly as safe as Luigi's fireballs.
Yeah Doc's pills mostly jab reset/control space (albeit quite mediocrely)
We get it. Luigi was nerfed. Let it go.
Leeeeeel!
I can't believe luigi is still overrated. He's just a worse mario now. Just powershield and punish accordingly. It's simple. NOTHING was guaranteed from fireballs. You must have the reflexes of a dead cat if you get caught by fireball to grab with luigi being so slow
You can tell if a character is bad if their mains are constantly trying to convince you they are good.
Well....she is Sheik.
Oh, his fireballs are less safe on shield now? Good because Doc's got worse too, they had the same multiplier.
Alright mate, it's about time we've had an intervention. Look, as Luigi main, I was really salty about this new patch too. Hell, I still am (No Sheik nerfs my ass). But it's about time that we all put on our big boy pants and look at the positives. Now, obviously, we've been sent down a few ranks in viability, but we still have quite a few niches that make us more than just a worse mario. For one, our aerials are better. We both have a combo breaking Nair, yes. But ours can kill. Mario's Fair is a one way trip to hell, but our Fair has great range, speed, and can link into each other. It's overall more versatile than mario's Fair if you ask me. Dair gets a spike while mario's Dair is a luigi cyclone that does less damage and can't recover (though apparently our Cyclone was nerfed a bit, so hush my mouth I suppose about the damage). And while our Uair can't juggle, it does more damage, and we have other aerials to compensate. Which brings me to Bair, which is just blatantly better than Mario's.
but but they go farther that'll balance them out right?
The Japanese apparently view Mewtwo similarly, he may not have the best attributes for winning consistently against top tiers but he can zone and counter-zone pretty well and space too against characters that are risky to go in on. Or decisively win almost anything with the right reads.
Link is safer after the patch but I still can't see him as solo viable. He can make a splash at regionals (see Scizor) but probably not nationals. Other characters have easier setups and are better.
Okay, it seems like you and @DunnoBro misread my post... my fault for using a double-negative. I'm saying that Mario *is* high tier.
Nobody replied to this a few pages back so why not.
I also want to add that
have one of the better MU against [ I would also like include Rosalina just because of her high knock-back aerials which can kill sheik before sheik kills her :[.] However If you look at other MU's Sheik simply overwhelms the opponent to a point where she going to kill you eventually due to 50/50's, kill confirms, safety and most likely not die due to her pressure game being bonkers; Exhibit A (Just watch Set 2 of Grand Finals at Big House and see how many times Nairo gets overwhelmed by her). Exhibit B [Pre-Patch] Exhibit C etc... So yeah Sheik having trouble killing can show when characters don't get blown away by her neutral / advantage state, but that doesn't stop the fact she have multiple 50/50's and kill setups to a point where sheik can get a kill early or late due to her opponent having to much percent.
Its all good man.
Rosalina has always lost to Sheik. This is especially apparent post patch where D-tilt is punishable by drop shield and dash attack. Rosalina also can't run up shield as much anymore, which was a big point of dealing with needles. Rosalina is destroyed in the frame data department too. Rosalina has a much worse offstage game too. We don't have too much as a GTFO thing except an occasional Luma intervention which is hugely inconsistentI also want to add that
I can only imagine what an Anti/ZeRo level Lucario would look like in the Sheik matchup.
