Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[ChillySundance]

Here's something else I want to know: How much difference is made to the positioning if you begin KI'ing towards the middle of your flight, as opposed to right at the start of it? Is there some kind of smash-DI like system in place that rewards prediction/immediate reaction to being hit?

 

[Metal B]

The big question is, how dynmaik is the radius of VI. If it grows slowly with knockback, the system just will habe people live longer and give them a little chance to escape combos (which is good in my opinion). If the radius is fixed or/and to big, this could hurt the combo and the length of the game.
We should hope, the Blast Radius gets defined by the Launch Power and stays very narrow to begin with.

 

[Jaxas]

Hey guys, throw anything specific you want to test my way; I have 2 3DS, and while I may only have the demo, that should be enough to at least get an idea of what's going on.

First, though, I'm going to test the difference in Link's survival without VI/FI/whatever, then with downward Vectoring, then with upward Vectoring. I'll be hitting with Mario's fully charged Usmash, just for reference.

--- EDIT ---
Also for reference, I'm testing on Battlefield's FD version.

 

[bc1910]

Once you're done testing VI's potency with surviving, you could test its potency on avoiding Mario's 67% combo on Zero's channel.

Or more simply, see how early you can escape Dthrow -> Utilt -> Utilt by vectoring up or up-left/up-right.

 

[ChillySundance]

Try and get some data on how holding a direction from the start of the attack changes the effects as opposed to holding it mid way through flight.

Also nonspecifically just low % stuff.

 

[Jaxas]

Once you're done testing VI's potency with surviving, you could test its potency on avoiding Mario's 67% combo on Zero's channel.

Or more simply, see how early you can escape Dthrow -> Utilt -> Utilt by vectoring up or up-left/up-right.

I'll definitely try, the problem being that I'm the only person awake right now so I have to control both 3DS by myself...

Honestly though, between this and the Stale Move Negation testing (shameless self promotion!) I'm getting surprisingly good at controlling the 2nd 3DS laying on a table under mine with my pinkies

 

[ChillySundance]

Remember to utilize pausing. That's how I used to do it when testing stuff in training mode in the old games. Hit, pause, change controllers, hold, unpause.

 

[SlitThroat1010]

How does vectoring affect spikes/meteors? Down aiming up slow down the speed I fall? Does aiming down increase the speed I fall? Does aiming left/right affect the spike angle still?

 

[Jaxas]

Okay, here're the results:

Test Information​

• Attack: Mario's (fresh) Usmash, fully charged
• Hitting: Link
• Stage: Final Destination form Battlefield
• Testing: Affect of Vector Influence on Survival
• Mario's Percent: 0%

Results​

• No Vector Influence: Link dies at exactly 83%
• Upward VI: Link dies at exactly 70%
• Downward VI: Link dies at exactly 122%

Remember to utilize pausing. That's how I used to do it when testing stuff in training mode in the old games. Hit, pause, change controllers, hold, unpause.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work - pause in multiplayer on here is similar to how it worked on Brawl's online; you lose control, but the game (and that 2 minute timer...) doesn't actually stop.

Once you're done testing VI's potency with surviving, you could test its potency on avoiding Mario's 67% combo on Zero's channel.

Or more simply, see how early you can escape Dthrow -> Utilt -> Utilt by vectoring up or up-left/up-right.

This will be next, followed by :

Try and get some data on how holding a direction from the start of the attack changes the effects as opposed to holding it mid way through flight.

I'll test 'nonspecific low% stuff' too, if you can be more specific (and I can pull it off with my pinky controlling the opponent; if not, I have a friend heading over tomorrow, so it'll be possible but delayed)

 

[ChillySundance]

By that I mean testing various simple follow ups at low %. Try to record just how far you can affect basic juggles such as Kirby's up tilt into whatever. guess Mario combos would be easiest, but I don't know any demo characters who have ones I can list off the top of my head.

It's easy to see the effects of this at high % by using KO range, but I want to see just how small or big that 'square' is for lower %'s

 

[bc1910]

Yeah, pausing is really helpful for a lot of stuff. In this case

Okay, here're the results:

Test Information​

• Attack: Mario's (fresh) Usmash, fully charged
• Hitting: Link
• Stage: Final Destination form Battlefield
• Testing: Affect of Vector Influence on Survival
• Mario's Percent: 0%

Results​

• No Vector Influence: Link dies at exactly 83%
• Upward VI: Link dies at exactly 70%
• Downward VI: Link dies at exactly 122%

I lol'd. Surviving at 122%...

Link dying at 70% when vectoring upwards is more positive, I feel. We're talking about a move with massive knockback, and Link can only make himself die 13% earlier compared to making himself survive until 39% later. That's a ratio of 1:3. From this I'm inferring that vectoring won't be very effective at getting you out of combos. Then again, 13% is still a pretty big number.

Thanks a lot for testing this.

 

[ChillySundance]

Could that be because of the game's gravity factoring in?

 

[Jaxas]

Okay, so I just finished testing VI's effect on ZeRo's combo with Mario on Link (who I believe is the only character in the demo it is guaranteed on with no VI).
ZeRo's Combo:

1. Dthrow
2. Utilt
3. Utilt
4. Dthrow
5. Utilt
6. Utilt
7. Uair
8. Uair
9. Uair
10. Coin Jump

I'm going to be testing this with some modification, namely:

1. Dthrow
2. Utilt
3. Utilt
4. Utilt
5. Dthrow
6. Utilt
7. Utilt
8. Uair
9. Uair
10. (Can be followed up with Coin Jump as well, but I won't be doing so for this test)

because it's easier (that last Uair -> Coin Jump is too difficult for me with the 2 3DS layout thing I have right now), but this totals out to 55% (67% with CJ).

Results are:

• No VI, mashing A (for Nair): Didn't break out
• No VI, mashing R (for AD): Didn't break out
• VI Up: Didn't break out
  
• VI Up + Mash R: Broke out right before the first Uair, but I'm not positive it wasn't just me screwing up repeatedly on the timing (controlling stuff at this level of complexity is harder than I thought)
  
• VI Up + VI Left (away): Didn't break out
  
• VI Up + VI Left (away) + Mash R: Unable to test, too difficult to be sure I'm doing it correctly
  
• VI Up + VI Right (into): Didn't break out, but forced me to switch up 1st Uair's location in a way where the original placement would have missed
  
• VI Up + VI Right (into) + Mash R: Unable to test
  
• VI Left (away): Didn't break out
• VI Left (away) + Mash R: Unable to test

Sorry for kind of bailing on this one, but HOLY CRAP is it difficult to test this with just one person...
If no one else has tested this by tomorrow, I'll be able to do so then as I have a friend heading over who can assist.

Try and get some data on how holding a direction from the start of the attack changes the effects as opposed to holding it mid way through flight.

Up next!

-------------------------
All right, that was fast!

It's read the same way as DI, during (likely on the last frame of) hitlag.

Tested by:

• Getting Link to 83%, the exact percent where he dies without VI
• Hitting him with Mario's Fresh Usmash (fully charged)
• As soon as Link is launched, hold down on that 3DS' Circle Pad.
• Repeat like 8 times to make sure it's true

End result was that Link died every time, despite a vast (almost 40%) increase in survival if down is held upon launch.

By that I mean testing various simple follow ups at low %. Try to record just how far you can affect basic juggles such as Kirby's up tilt into whatever. guess Mario combos would be easiest, but I don't know any demo characters who have ones I can list off the top of my head.

It's easy to see the effects of this at high % by using KO range, but I want to see just how small or big that 'square' is for lower %'s

I'll give this a shot next, and then likely head off to bed.
Feel free to post if there's anything else you want tested though, if I don't end up doing it tonight I will tomorrow!


Test:

• With fresh stocks, see how long Mario can chain Utilt into itself against Link attempting different moves.

Results:

• No VI: 39%
  
• No VI, attempting Nair: 39%
• VI Up: 39%
• VI Up, Nair: 39%
  
• VI Away: 39%
  
• VI Away, Bair: 39%
• VI Towards: 46%
  
• VI Towards, Fair: 39%

So in other words, it looks like there's nothing to worry about!

 

[Tomo009]

Would be cool if you could test on one of the other characters to see if it is a consistent ratio of the total knockback that is applied every time or if it rises based on other factors.

 

[Shaya]

Fully charged being that large of a difference is actually daunting/scary.
Was hoping you'd test uncharged smashes actually, as that's going to be a proper indicator to players for the most part.

also make sure you at 0% on Mario as there happens to be a knockback scaler tied to how damaged you are.

 

[Jaxas]

Fully charged being that large of a difference is actually daunting/scary.
Was hoping you'd test uncharged smashes actually, as that's going to be a proper indicator to players for the most part.

I would test uncharged, but since there's no C-stick I can't guarantee that I'm not charging the Smash ever so slightly; I could run the experiment again with that if you'd like, though.

Would be cool if you could test on one of the other characters to see if it is a consistent ratio of the total knockback that is applied every time or if it rises based on other factors.

So you'd like to see Mario's Usmash tested on a character other than Link? Sure, I could do that.

I think these will be the last 2 before I head to bed though, I'll resume when I wake up (or if not then when I get home) tomorrow.

 

[Shaya]

I would test uncharged, but since there's no C-stick I can't guarantee that I'm not charging the Smash ever so slightly; I could run the experiment again with that if you'd like, though.


So you'd like to see Mario's Usmash tested on a character other than Link? Sure, I could do that.

I think these will be the last 2 before I head to bed though, I'll resume when I wake up (or if not then when I get home) tomorrow.

Apparently tilting a direction + the grab button gives you instant smashes? and I think you can probably click and release fast enough otherwise. And you'd be sure after 8 retries

Also as I edited in, make sure you're a 0% on mario.

 

[Tagxy]

Yeah 52% difference between up and down is crazy. I think to an extent, it has to do with the vector addition affect being greater at higher percents. Cool stuff, Im suprised this hasnt been done earlier.

@ Jaxas
Can you test upsmash stuff without charging? I think thats more helpful.

Also try this. Do upsmash at some normal mid-percent holding down, then try again holding down-left, and again holding down-right. What we want to figure out is if the verticle height is the same in all of these cases. Try to find a percent and marker that allows you to be as accurate as possible.

Then do this again, except this time with a regular upsmash, then holding just left, and again holding just right. Again look for the same thing.

 

[Jaxas]

Apparently tilting a direction + the grab button gives you instant smashes? and I think you can probably click and release fast enough otherwise. And you'd be sure after 8 retries

Woah, so it does! That's gonna take some getting used to...

And thinking about it, I'm already getting down to the exact percent; a frame or two of charge won't change the results more than a single percent, so I don't think it's worth worrying about.

Apparently tilting a direction + the grab button gives you instant smashes? and I think you can probably click and release fast enough otherwise. And you'd be sure after 8 retries

Also as I edited in, make sure you're a 0% on mario.

Yep, I have been; I saw ClashTournament's "Rage Buff" or whatever video. Looks like everyone's part Lucario now?


Anyways, testing now!

 

[A Lucky Person]

How does vectoring affect spikes/meteors? Down aiming up slow down the speed I fall? Does aiming down increase the speed I fall? Does aiming left/right affect the spike angle still?

This is a question I also have. Does sixing downwards cause you to go higher if you were to bounce off of the stage from a meteor hit? Or are we supposed to six upwards for maximum benefit of any meteor hit (on or off-stage)?

 

[ChillySundance]

So from this, I'm getting that this is only really noticeable for really big hits? That's a relief. low % combos will remain fairly unaffected.

 

[Bladeviper]

This is a question I also have. Does sixing downwards cause you to go higher if you were to bounce off of the stage from a meteor hit? Or are we supposed to six upwards for maximum benefit of any meteor hit (on or off-stage)?

i would just tech being meteored into the ground, but idk about what direction to hold its kinda weird

 

[bc1910]

If you're being meteored you will hit the ground at higher velocity if you VI down which would make you go higher if you bounce off the stage, I think.

 

[Jaxas]

Main Test Revisit: Uncharged Edition​

Test Information

• Attack: Mario's (fresh) Usmash, not charged
  
• Stage: Final Destination form Battlefield
• Testing: Affect of Vector Influence on Survival
• Mario's Percent: 0%

Results: Link

• No Vector Influence: Link dies at exactly 126%
• Upward VI: Link dies at exactly 108%
• Downward VI: Link dies at exactly 178%

Results: Pikachu

• No Vector Influence: Pikachu dies at exactly 107%
• Upward VI: Pikachu dies at exactly 94%
• Downward VI: Pikachu dies between 153% and 154% (I got lazy on testing, whatever though close enough)

Also try this. Do upsmash at some normal mid-percent holding down, then try again holding down-left, and again holding down-right. What we want to figure out is if the verticle height is the same in all of these cases. Try to find a percent and marker that allows you to be as accurate as possible.

Then do this again, except this time with a regular upsmash, then holding just left, and again holding just right. Again look for the same thing.

This is first on my to do list for tomorrow

This is a question I also have. Does sixing downwards cause you to go higher if you were to bounce off of the stage from a meteor hit? Or are we supposed to six upwards for maximum benefit of any meteor hit (on or off-stage)?

I'd love to test that, but that's something I'll do tomorrow with help.

So from this, I'm getting that this is only really noticeable for really big hits? That's a relief. low % combos will remain fairly unaffected.

Keep in mind that I couldn't test the 67% combo with aerials to break out, however it still certainly looks that way.



All right, I'm tired so I'm going to head to bed.
I'll return to test more tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it!

 

[bc1910]

Wow. RIP killing vertically.

 

[Shaya]

Horizontal moves are a lot harder to test as I don't believe we have that many 0/180 degree angles. Jigglypuff and Toon Link's down smashes are the only ones I'm aware of that come close (in brawl)

Choices would be centre stage, mario fsmash, similar rules, but optimal would be to test both holding down, holding in, and the combination of the two.

 

[Meru.]

​

Test Information

• Attack: Mario's (fresh) Usmash, not charged
  
• Stage: Final Destination form Battlefield
• Testing: Affect of Vector Influence on Survival
• Mario's Percent: 0%

Results: Link

• No Vector Influence: Link dies at exactly 126%
• Upward VI: Link dies at exactly 108%
• Downward VI: Link dies at exactly 178%

Results: Pikachu

• No Vector Influence: Pikachu dies at exactly 107%
• Upward VI: Pikachu dies at exactly 94%
• Downward VI: Pikachu dies between 153% and 154% (I got lazy on testing, whatever though close enough)

LOOOL wtf that's a huge difference. People have plenty of time to Knockback Cancel (or Vector Cancel whatever, I prefer the first term) while they are blasted away so if the difference is really this bad people are likely going to be surviving for a veeeery long time in this game.

 

[Tristan_win]

These results are unforgiving. We could deal with 15% maybe 30% more to kill but 50% that's just outrageous! It kneecaps all potential kill moves off the top to be nonviable. Why did they make this so strong?

 

[Shaya]

Yeah upwards kill moves are a no go. Probably horizontal's are going to be similar, so this game's focus will really be about killing off stage (gimping).
As we already had good indicators of.

When the meta settles and the best characters are those who can successfully kill given the conditions, the potential of how top players use "VI" will be really about varying their [likely] primarily horizontal knockbacks to not get gimped / not easily get followed up on. Juggling characters will also be very potent (i.e. the option coverage characters) as VI isn't really helping you in any way in that situation, this will probably be more apparent once we see platform play, where fast falling into platforms for following up will be strong enough to follow up for longer.

 

[ChillySundance]

that said, blast zones for cielings are much closer to the stage than the blast zones in the corners. Vertical kill moves still might be more effective because of this, even with that crazy disparity between a regular V.ko and one influenced by KI.

 

[bc1910]

To me, vectoring out of combos looks similar to SDI-ing out of combos in previous games. SDI also allows you to move away from your opponent when you get hit and it was much stronger in previous titles. Based on Jaxas' findings it looks like vectoring out of combos will be less effective in Smash 4 than SDI-ing out of combos was in pretty much every previous title, especially when multi-hit moves are involved. Obviously we can't say for sure yet but it's certainly encouraging.

Vectoring seems to be a lot more worrisome for killing than it is for escaping combos.

 

[<π]

You have to remember when testing vertically every extra frame someone lives has you multiplying in that fall speed to this purely vertical KO move. The same thing happened in melee and brawl with DI...

Calm down guys... calm down. Different game, different rules.

 

[FormlessD]

Can someone try testing using VI partway through the flight path?

 

[Gawain]

Yeah upwards kill moves are a no go. Probably horizontal's are going to be similar, so this game's focus will really be about killing off stage (gimping).
As we already had good indicators of.

Quoting this for truth. Blast zoning is more difficult and I believe that this is by design. Everything indicates that they're trying to emphasize off stage play. Watching streams reinforces this even more, there is a lot of incentive, and it's fairly safe for almost everyone, to go off stage and gimp.

 

[DrakeRowan]

Why did they make this so strong?

It's likely because of the "Rage Mechanic" given universally to all characters.

 

[C-SAF]

Quoting this for truth. Blast zoning is more difficult and I believe that this is by design. Everything indicates that they're trying to emphasize off stage play. Watching streams reinforces this even more, there is a lot of incentive, and it's fairly safe for almost everyone, to go off stage and gimp.

Smash 64- emphasis on never leaving the stage
Melee - emphasis equal on stage off stage
Brawl - emphasis on never leaving the ledge
Smash4 - emphasis on constantly jumping off the ledge

Can't wait to see whats next...

 

[solitonmedic]

Press down on the circle pad! Hurry!

 

[Bladeviper]

Smash 64- emphasis on never leaving the stage
Melee - emphasis equal on stage off stage
Brawl - emphasis on never leaving the ledge
Smash4 - emphasis on constantly jumping off the ledge

Can't wait to see whats next...

having hype dbz like air fights i guess is the only thing they have not done yet

 

[Dax]

Can someone try testing using VI partway through the flight path?

I'd like to know this too. @ Jaxas I guess you were Not holding down Before the U smash hit, right? I'd like to see what happens if you start holding down at different frames (like: before the hit, asap after the hit, etc)

 

[Bladeviper]

I'd like to know this too. @ Jaxas I guess you were Not holding down Before the U smash hit, right? I'd like to see what happens if you start holding down at different frames (like: before the hit, asap after the hit, etc)

we have video of what happens if you do it before being hit i believe its just labeled as down di since it was shown before we knew about vectoring