Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[TTTTTsd]

Vectoring seems to be a lot more worrisome for killing than it is for escaping combos.

I can't begin to state this enough, that's REALLY what it's looking like. Vertical vectoring has like, WAY less influence. It doesn't kill people at 50% lower when they VI Up.

 

[Tagxy]

I would say the toughest aspect of all this isnt really that people live longer. If that was it, it wouldnt be so hard to decide since we can just adjust based on how long matches take and the amount of stocks that exist is pretty irrelevant. I really think people make a bigger deal out of the amount of stocks then their should be.

Whats actually difficult is whats seeming like the amount of variance stocks will have between this, rage, offstage gimps, etc. Death percents were fairly standard in all other smash games and melee probably has had the largest amount of variance thus far. Now on one end youll have people getting gimped at low percents or dying early due to rage, and on the other youll have Bowser tanking living close to 200. So deciding between 2 and 3 stocks becomes harder where 2 stock tournaments could end really early or 3 stock tournaments ending later than expected.

I think theres no issue with doing 2-stock over 3 aside from personal taste, but one solution could be @Infinitysmash 's idea to start out with 2-stocks then move to 3 for the finals. He knows a lot more about this than I do. Im also 99% sure we'll have to revisit this when the Wii U version comes out.

 

[GHNeko]

Shouldnt we also find out how much impact Vectoring has when rage is in play? For all we know, vectoring is influenced on a formulaic basis, and Rage could be a variable that has a lot of impact.

50%/100%/150% Rage vs VI for example.

 

[obeymalleo]

Can someone simplify how to exactly use vectoring? I want to clarify that I know the terminology, but need a simple example.

 

[Jaxas]

Can someone try testing using VI partway through the flight path?

I'd like to know this too. @ Jaxas I guess you were Not holding down Before the U smash hit, right? I'd like to see what happens if you start holding down at different frames (like: before the hit, asap after the hit, etc)

I already did, it's read the same as DI (last frame of hitlag).

Also, I'm back now! Anything else I should test? My current to test list is:

• Can you break out of ZeRo's Mario combo while holding Down+Left/Left/Up+Left/Up and mashing R for Air Dodge?
• Test how vectoring affects Meteors
  • How does VI affect the bounce-from-stage after a Meteor
• Recheck the survivability test with Down+Horizontal VI, and then again with just Horizontal VI

 

[TTTTTsd]

Test Mario's comboability on the entire demo cast, just to see how much variation there is with and without vectoring. Would be an interesting experiment as weight is likely an important part of it.

 

[Jaxas]

All tests performed on Link

Testing breaking out of the ZeRo combo​

• VI Down + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + Mash R: Last Utilt misses

Testing Meteor Smash Bounce on Stage Height​

• Up VI, 70%: Higher than No VI
  
• No VI, 69%: Around Mario's jump height
• Down VI, 69%: Around Mario's Short Hop height
• Down VI on hit, No VI on bounce, 69%: Around Mario's Short Hop height

 

[Rajing Clue]

All tests performed on Link

Testing breaking out of the ZeRo combo​

• VI Down + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + Mash R: Last Utilt misses

Well damn

Thanks for running the tests!!

 

[Praxis]

All tests performed on Link

Testing breaking out of the ZeRo combo​

• VI Down + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + Mash R: Last Utilt misses

Testing Meteor Smash Bounce on Stage Height​

• Up VI, 70%: Higher than No VI
  
• No VI, 69%: Around Mario's jump height
• Down VI, 69%: Around Mario's Short Hop height
• Down VI on hit, No VI on bounce, 69%: Around Mario's Short Hop height

This really explains why I have had such a hard time consistently comboing the same way. Between VI, Rage, and stale move negation, moves will basically never ever have the same knockback twice.

 

[Espy Rose]

Best news I've heard all day.

 

[Tristan_win]

Best news I've heard all day.

I like how I'm over here running around thinking the sky is falling due to VI/KI and rage and your like 'hey man... everything cool, just go with the flow' I absolutely disagree with you but I can't help to find my own flipping out funny in comparison to your attitude.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Because VI doesn't ruin all combos at all, really. It might force more creative ones as percents go up, but all of them? Nah. When you factor in the addition of platforms in battlefield you can still use them since VI scales with current KB.

Anybody being calm about it is just looking at the big picture and planning out how to adapt already. I know I am. The air is a bad place to be defensively in this game to begin with, so even if they vector, they're not all the way out.

But I digress, I understand being unhappy but the best you can do is plan around it and maybe even come up with a cooler strat! At the very least it'll advance understanding and you can apply yourself and perhaps enjoy it more.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Best news I've heard all day.

Espy you're a jerk.

Now and forevermore.

Kidding! Kind of.

I love that we're able to break this game down like this. There's a lot of interesting changes that are begging to be explored. Please, keep this datapig informed!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shouxiao]

Interesting. I am liking the new mechanics.

 

[Funen1]

EDIT: Misread something, never mind.

 

[ENKER]

Is this the end of the storm or merely the eye? It's nice to see people starting to calm down, lol.

Remember, we all love Smash. Smash is our reason for being, vector or not.

 

[obeymalleo]

Can someone simplify how to exactly use vectoring? I want to clarify that I know the terminology, but need a simple example.

Can someone answer this please?

 

[Jaxas]

Can someone answer this please?

All right, with our current understanding it works like this:

When hit, you can hold one of 8 directions (9 if including not holding a direction), which are as follows:
[7-8-9]
[4-5-6]
[1-2-3]

Similarly to DI, if you are holding one of these on the last frame of hitlag, your end location will change. At the end of your hitstun, you will be at one of those nine locations, depending on what you were holding when launched.

"5" is where you'd go normally, and the rest of the numbers in that square are the other locations you could go.

Also, here's an image provided by @MadKraken back on page 15:

 

[Conda]

Looks like more complex and detailed DI

 

[Jaedrik]

Knockback Vectoring (KV) is the coolest alternate name for 'Vectoring'.
ALRIGHT LET'S GO!

 

[Joe73191]

With DI you generally want to input a more perpendicular angle to the direction you are being sent. With Vectoring you generally want a more parallel angle. Is that about right?

 

[Chiroz]

With DI you generally want to input a more perpendicular angle to the direction you are being sent. With Vectoring you generally want a more parallel angle. Is that about right?

Yes.

All tests performed on Link

Testing breaking out of the ZeRo combo​

• VI Down + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + VI Away + Mash R: At 1st Uair
• VI Up + Mash R: Last Utilt misses

Testing Meteor Smash Bounce on Stage Height​

• Up VI, 70%: Higher than No VI
  
• No VI, 69%: Around Mario's jump height
• Down VI, 69%: Around Mario's Short Hop height
• Down VI on hit, No VI on bounce, 69%: Around Mario's Short Hop height

I am sorry to be a bother but Air Dodges in this game lag more than Mario's Up-Air or Up-Tilt so you weren't really "breaking out of the combo" since he could have just attacked you again as soon as the air dodge was over, right? Or am I missing something? (I might be since you were the one who tested it and not me, I don't know the exact circumstances).

Could you try escaping the combo without mashing R and see if you can?

Again sorry to be a bother.

 

[Jaxas]

Yes.
I am sorry to be a bother but Air Dodges in this game lag more than Mario's Up-Air or Up-Tilt so you weren't really "breaking out of the combo" since he could have just attacked you again as soon as the combo was over, right? Or am I missing something? (I might be since you were the one who tested it and not me, I don't know the exact circumstances).

Could you try escaping the combo without mashing R and see if you can?

Again sorry to be a bother.

I can re-test this later, though in the past the 2 things I had tested to break out were mashing R for Air Dodge and Nair, since Link's Nair is really fast; the problem with testing that is that you have to be holding a direction to VI which makes it difficult to test that.
Also, I tested something similar earlier and breaking out was the same percentage between AD and Nair.

 

[Chiroz]

I can re-test this later, though in the past the 2 things I had tested to break out were mashing R for Air Dodge and Nair, since Link's Nair is really fast; the problem with testing that is that you have to be holding a direction to VI which makes it difficult to test that.
Also, I tested something similar earlier and breaking out was the same percentage between AD and Nair.

I mean theoretically you would break out at the same time, but Air Dodge comes out instantly while an aerial might lag or might not lag. So breaking out of the combo would depend on how fast your aerials come out at that moment.

Tell me how the retests goes. I am just curious because I have already had people "dodge" out of my up-tilts even without any VI and I can still up-tilt them again after their dodge is gone since air dodge lags so much. I've also had people dodge my Up-Air (with Mario) and I can just drop and Up-Tilt them (or Up-Air them again depending on height) since they will be stuck in air dodge lag. So I don't really consider it "breaking my combo", more like "stalling the next hit of my combo".

 

[Smooth Criminal]

So it might be unsafe to airdodge in the middle of a string like that. I guess it would depend on the VI/KI, right?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Espy Rose]

But I love you Smooth. I still remember when you had a Master Chief avatar and everything. ;~;

 

[Chiroz]

So it might be unsafe to airdodge in the middle of a string like that. I guess it would depend on the VI/KI, right?

Smooth Criminal

Yes, it might be unsafe to "break" a combo by dodging and it might just be better to let them continue the string and wait for a better opportunity to escape. It all depends on where he ended up when he "broke the combo" (how far he was able to VI before dodging), something I can't know since I wasn't there and don't know the exact details of the test.

Only Jaxus himself knows if the string could have continued after the dodge and the combo itself wasn't really broken.

 

[Jaxas]

Yes, it might be unsafe to "break" a combo by dodging and it might just be better to let them continue the string and wait for a better opportunity to escape. It all depends on where he ended up when he "broke the combo" (how far he was able to VI before dodging), something I can't know since I wasn't there and don't know the exact details of the test.

Only Jaxus himself knows if the string could have continued after the dodge and the combo itself wasn't really broken.

Okay, so this is entirely from memory and as such may not be correct. Keep that in mind while reading; I'll test this again later with a few other things.


So, when Link is trying to break out of Mario's combo, he only has a few options. These options are VI to one of 9 positions, and as for after that he can Jump (if they weren't grabbed out of the air), Air Dodge, or try to Attack.

VI doesn't appear to have a huge impact; the change that it brings to the ZeRo combo is that the first Uair, which barely hit originally, doesn't connect anymore because Link gets just far enough away that Mario has to chase slightly further, which takes more time.
At this point, Link isn't actually out of the range of follow ups unless he can jump out of the way. If he does, then he's above you - which is a very bad place to be in this game.

Basically, since VI doesn't appear to have a huge affect on placement (it was quite minor; the Uair was just barely avoided when VI'd)
- Jump (when available) beats most follow-ups, while putting Link in a bad position
- Air Dodge is beaten by waiting for it to end then following up (likely better than if they hadn't Air Dodged),
- Attack is beaten by Shield->Retaliate.
- Do nothing is beaten by continuing the combo

Long story short, VI does kill some 'true combos' in favor of a focus on a more elaborate mixup game.

 

[Chiroz]

Okay, so this is entirely from memory and as such may not be correct. Keep that in mind while reading; I'll test this again later with a few other things.


So, when Link is trying to break out of Mario's combo, he only has a few options. These options are VI to one of 9 positions, and as for after that he can Jump (if they weren't grabbed out of the air), Air Dodge, or try to Attack.

VI doesn't appear to have a huge impact; the change that it brings to the ZeRo combo is that the first Uair, which barely hit originally, doesn't connect anymore because Link gets just far enough away that Mario has to chase slightly further, which takes more time.
At this point, Link isn't actually out of the range of follow ups unless he can jump out of the way. If he does, then he's above you - which is a very bad place to be in this game.

Basically, since VI doesn't appear to have a huge affect on placement (it was quite minor; the Uair was just barely avoided when VI'd)
- Jump (when available) beats most follow-ups, while putting Link in a bad position
- Air Dodge is beaten by waiting for it to end then following up (likely better than if they hadn't Air Dodged),
- Attack is beaten by Shield->Retaliate.
- Do nothing is beaten by continuing the combo

Long story short, VI does kill some 'true combos' in favor of a focus on a more elaborate mixup game.

I figured as much. If you can, or when you can, test it so you can tell us for sure if your conclusions are correct. This is sort of what I expected. Basically VI gives Link the opportunity to try and escape the combo by giving him just enough time to perform one of 3 options, but if the Mario player can correctly predict the Link player's next movement (which is one of the 3 options) he can still continue the string.

 

[ChillySundance]

I mean theoretically you would break out at the same time, but Air Dodge comes out instantly while an aerial might lag or might not lag. So breaking out of the combo would depend on how fast your aerials come out at that moment.

Tell me how the retests goes. I am just curious because I have already had people "dodge" out of my up-tilts even without any VI and I can still up-tilt them again after their dodge is gone since air dodge lags so much. I've also had people dodge my Up-Air (with Mario) and I can just drop and Up-Tilt them (or Up-Air them again depending on height) since they will be stuck in air dodge lag. So I don't really consider it "breaking my combo", more like "stalling the next hit of my combo".

It's not technically a combo by definition if the person being comboed is able to perform any action between hits. That's referred to as a 'link' or a 'reset'

 

[Chiroz]

It's not technically a combo by definition if the person being comboed is able to perform any action between hits. That's referred to as a 'link' or a 'reset'

Or a string. But almost no "combos" in Smash are actual "combos" since most of the time you have to read your opponents DI. But yes, I meant "string".

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I feel insulted by this change. It's dull. This is essentially 'DI for dummies'. The DI system is beautifully versatile but it seems like they were like "OK **** that, let's do something way simpler"

Remember the time when you first learned about DI and you were surprised to to learn that holding down does not help you survive when you fly up? Remember when you though that was illogical until you understood the game mechanic is more intricate than that?

I do not really see any way this change is positive because it will most likely result in the following:

1. Longer matches
2. Less combos

I would also add 'less depth' to that list but it's my quick impression based on SB's explanation. However I feel that this is what this mechanic will eventually result in.

I knew Smash 4 was going to suck, but I was not expecting it to suck this bad.

**** this game.

 

[Ganreizu]

Remember the time when you first learned about DI and you were surprised to to learn that holding down does not help you survive when you fly up? Remember when you though that was illogical until you understood the game mechanic is more intricate than that?

So it's illogical then, but now that it works EXACTLY like that, it's a bad thing?

How logical.

I would also add 'less depth' to that list but it's my quick impression based on SB's explanation. However I feel that this is what this mechanic will eventually result in.

More mixups = less depth.

I'll go tell sakurai.

**** this game.

Bye.

 

[User33]

I feel insulted by this change. It's dull. This is essentially 'DI for dummies'. The DI system is beautifully versatile but it seems like they were like "OK **** that, let's do something way simpler"

Remember the time when you first learned about DI and you were surprised to to learn that holding down does not help you survive when you fly up? Remember when you though that was illogical until you understood the game mechanic is more intricate than that?

I do not really see any way this change is positive because it will most likely result in the following:

1. Longer matches
2. Less combos

I would also add 'less depth' to that list but it's my quick impression based on SB's explanation. However I feel that this is what this mechanic will eventually result in.

I knew Smash 4 was going to suck, but I was not expecting it to suck this bad.

**** this game.

Joke post.

 

[Funkermonster]

This new change doesn't look comfortable ... I oughta go sign a petition to Nintendo in hopes of removing this mechanic (Not holding my breath for success though).

I wonder how this will effect edgeguarding...

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wonder how this will effect edgeguarding...

Not too much if you practice your gimps. I can only see Villager being annoying with this(but multihit the balloons and GGs I guess). Really as long as you can knock someone far enough so that their recovery can't reach the ledge, it's essentially a KO. I'm guessing that's the end-goal, and it's why a lot of characters(even Link) were given meteors. The best ways to kill are
A) Meteor
B) Push opponent off far enough so that they can't get back

 

[Funkermonster]

Fair enough

 

[Tweedle]

Meanwhile: this is how I thought it worked anyway. So I'm fine with it.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Did more testing. Here are the results:

Stage: Battlefield (Final Destination version)
Move being used: Mega Upper/Mega Man's Up Tilt (All Completely Fresh)
Vectoring Direction: Straight Down
Testing: Vertical KOs

Opponent: Link (heaviest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 68%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 87%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 104%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 129%

Opponent: Pikachu (lightest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 58%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 75%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 88%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 110%

Results: Link
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 129% - 87% = 42%
KO percentage difference with Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 104% - 68% = 36%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 87% - 68% = 19%
KO percentage difference with Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 129% - 104% = 25%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 129% - 68% = 61%

Results: Pikachu
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 110% - 75% = 35%
KO percentage difference with Max Rage (vectoring and not vectoring): 88% - 58% = 30%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 75% - 58% = 17%
KO percentage difference with Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 110% - 88% = 22%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 110% - 58% = 52%

Results: Link (heavyweight) vs Pikachu (lightweight) weight comparison
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 150% Mega: 68% - 58% = 10% difference
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 0% Mega: 87% - 75% = 12% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 150% Mega: 104% - 88% = 16% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 0% Mega: 129% - 110% = 19% difference

---

Final Results for Vectoring:
Vectoring influence w/o Max Rage: 35% to 42% (extremely rough estimate)
Vectoring influence with Max Rage: 30% to 36% (extremely rough estimate)
Vectoring influence on Vertical KO percent overall: 30% to 42% (extremely rough estimate)

Final Results for Max Rage:
Max Rage influence w/o Vectoring: 17% to 19% (extremely rough estimate)
Max Rage influence with Vectoring: 22% to 25% (extremely rough estimate)
Max Rage influence on Vertical KO percent overall: 17% to 25% (extremely rough estimate)

Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO difference: 52% to 61% (extremely rough estimate)


All testing was done on the Smash 3DS Demo version. Credit to @san. for helping me out. (Posted this on the Rage topic as well)

 

[Conda]

This doesn't change much gameplay-wise honestly. You'll have to press the stick in a direction when you get hit - which you already had to do. This time, you just have to hold it in a different position, and it will have a different effect. But the role in gameplay is the same, and it requires the same amount of inputs in the course of the fight. It's not as earthshatteringly different as the name implies. Mathematically, yes. Gameplay-wise from the players' perspectives, no.

All it changes more than old DI mechanics from the other games is more drastically the % to kill, but we already know %-to-kill is higher this time around. It just makes it the case moreso, but that's no problem - offstage game has received a HUGE buff this time around, and everybody's recoveries have been improved to better compete in this offstage-strengthened meta. Therefore, we just need to adapt.