Vectoring: The replacement to Directional Influence in Smash 4

[Chesstiger2612]

That is exactly what it does. You're able to arbitrarily go further from an attack without suffering any more hitstun, making it require more frames for an opponent to reach you. Already tight combos are now just not possible at all.

Thats exactly what I thought. Influencing not the angle but the distance will make it so much easier to
- "vector" away to escape combos
- "vector" in to survive longer
, both will make the game slower

 

[SerasAlucard]

Ahhhh so this is the reason it feels its harder to kill now.

 

[san.]

Did more testing. Here are the results:

Stage: Battlefield (Final Destination version)
Move being used: Mega Upper/Mega Man's Up Tilt (All Completely Fresh)
Vectoring Direction: Straight Down
Testing: Vertical KOs

Opponent: Link (heaviest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 68%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 87%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 104%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 129%

Opponent: Pikachu (lightest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 58%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 75%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 88%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 110%

Results: Link
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (not vectoring and vectoring): 129% - 87% = 42%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 104% - 68% = 36%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 129% - 68% = 61%
68% to 87% = 19% difference; 87% to 104% = 17% difference; 104 to 129% = 25% difference

Results: Pikachu
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (not vectoring and vectoring): 110% - 75% = 35%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 88% - 58% = 30%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 110% - 58% = 52%
58% to 75% = 17% difference; 75% to 88% = 13% difference; 88% to 110% = 22% difference

Results: Link (heavyweight) vs Pikachu (lightweight) mechanics comparison
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 150% Mega: 68% - 58% = 10% difference
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 0% Mega: 87% - 75% = 12% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 150% Mega: 104% - 88 = 16% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 0% Mega: 129% - 110% = 19% difference

---

Final Results:
Vectoring vs Not Vectoring: Increases damage percentage to KO you by 35% to 42% (extremely rough estimate) from a vertical KO on FD Battlefield, excluding rage
Max Rage vs No Rage: Decreases damage percentage to KO an opponent by 30% to 36% (extremely rough estimate) from a vertical KO on FD Battlefield, excluding vectoring
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO difference: 52% to 61% (extremely rough estimate) for a vertical KO on FD Battlefield, including rage and vectoring
Vectoring advantage over (Max) Rage: 5% to 6% (extremely rough estimate)


All testing was done on the Smash 3DS Demo version. (Posted this on the Rage topic as well)

30% and 36% seems to be the difference in percentage for vectoring vs not vectoring at max rage.

KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 87% - 68% = 19%
KO percentage difference w/ Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 129% - 104% = 25%

KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 75% - 58% = 17%
KO percentage difference w/ Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 110% - 88% = 22%

 

[Chiroz]

Did more testing. Here are the results:

Stage: Battlefield (Final Destination version)
Move being used: Mega Upper/Mega Man's Up Tilt (All Completely Fresh)
Vectoring Direction: Straight Down
Testing: Vertical KOs

Opponent: Link (heaviest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 68%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 87%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 104%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 129%

Opponent: Pikachu (lightest demo character)
KO percentage without vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 58%
KO percentage without vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 75%
KO percentage with vectoring 150% Mega (max rage): 88%
KO percentage with vectoring 0% Mega (no rage): 110%

Results: Link
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (not vectoring and vectoring): 129% - 87% = 42%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 104% - 68% = 36%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 129% - 68% = 61%
68% to 87% = 19% difference; 87% to 104% = 17% difference; 104 to 129% = 25% difference

Results: Pikachu
KO percentage difference w/o Max Rage (not vectoring and vectoring): 110% - 75% = 35%
KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 88% - 58% = 30%
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO: 110% - 58% = 52%
58% to 75% = 17% difference; 75% to 88% = 13% difference; 88% to 110% = 22% difference

Results: Link (heavyweight) vs Pikachu (lightweight) mechanics comparison
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 150% Mega: 68% - 58% = 10% difference
KO percentage comparison without vectoring 0% Mega: 87% - 75% = 12% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 150% Mega: 104% - 88 = 16% difference
KO percentage comparison with vectoring 0% Mega: 129% - 110% = 19% difference

---

Final Results:
Vectoring vs Not Vectoring: Increases damage percentage to KO you by 35% to 42% (extremely rough estimate) from a vertical KO on FD Battlefield, excluding rage
Max Rage vs No Rage: Decreases damage percentage to KO an opponent by 30% to 36% (extremely rough estimate) from a vertical KO on FD Battlefield, excluding vectoring
Maximum percentage KO minus Minimum percentage KO difference: 52% to 61% (extremely rough estimate) for a vertical KO on FD Battlefield, including rage and vectoring
Vectoring advantage over (Max) Rage: 5% to 6% (extremely rough estimate)


All testing was done on the Smash 3DS Demo version. (Posted this on the Rage topic as well)

This makes me doubt the Jigglypuff video where it was only about 12%.

Could you test with some other character that's not Megaman and see what happens. Test with Mario's Full Charged Up-Smash.

Also could you test diagonal VI? I have a feeling it might not actually be a square how we thought it was.

 

[Ganreizu]

Those percentages actually look really similar to percentages that DI would let you achieve.

 

[Chiroz]

Those percentages actually look really similar to percentages that DI would let you achieve.

Yea they do.

I have a feeling the Jiggz video might not have tested the exact %s at which Jiggz could survive or die. The difference we see in the video is a mere 11-12%. We don't actually know if she could die earlier or if she could survive later. All we know is she dies at 45% without VI and survives at 51% with VI. We can't even tell if VI is really a square because what if Jiggz could have actually died at 35% and diagonal VI didn't save him at 47% because that was an overkill %.

I am not trying to say that StrongBad's methods are not correct or cast doubt on them. I just want to make 100% sure of them because the video has a lot of holes in it.

 

[oGr33n]

This new mechanic is REALLY bad for combos. I'm pretty sure this mechanic contributes greatly to why combos end at 2-3 hits max, but it certainly does not mean this game is not fun competitively. One thing that's really important, though, is that it gives the flying character more options to work around. This makes being able to judge where your opponent likes to habitually make his vector super important to connect strings of attacks.

I'm going to practice the new mech right now on the demo!

I think I understand what's going but please correct me if I'm wrong 'cause I wanna know!

 

[Schtizzel]

Vectoring has no real effect at low percentages, like the Rage Effect, why can't people understand this?
Like somebody tested it you can only escape the UpAir of Zero's Mario Combo. People need to adept to their opponents VI or movement and not unwind some basic training mode combos.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

30% and 36% seems to be the difference in percentage for vectoring vs not vectoring at max rage.

KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 87% - 68% = 19%
KO percentage difference w/ Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 129% - 104% = 25%

KO percentage difference w/o Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 75% - 58% = 17%
KO percentage difference w/ Vectoring (no rage and max rage): 110% - 88% = 22%

Thank you for pointing this out. I have fixed my post now in both the Rage topic and this topic.

This makes me doubt the Jigglypuff video where it was only about 12%.

Could you test with some other character that's not Megaman and see what happens. Test with Mario's Full Charged Up-Smash.

Also could you test diagonal VI? I have a feeling it might not actually be a square how we thought it was.

Yeah. I will try testing with Mario's Full Charged Up-Smash next time.

As for testing diagonal VI, I can try. But I am not so sure on that one. I can only really test with my brother's help, and he's...busy focusing on playing Destiny. So the times I am able to test and how often I can test are dependent upon him somewhat (I could try testing by myself though but only when he doesn't take his 2DS).

Also something interesting I found when fixing my results. Max Rage...seems to scale upwards/becomes stronger when vectoring is involved? I could be missing some other factor in regards to that, though.

 

[Neanderthal]

What benefit is it to Sakurai to put things like this in the game?
I can't see it improving casual play. This and things like excessive landing lag only serve to gimp competitive play. I really don't understand what he's thinking. It just ruins a huge community of players who love the series with no real benefit.

 

[Chiroz]

What benefit is it to Sakurai to put things like this in the game?
I can't see it improving casual play. This and things like excessive landing lag only serve to gimp competitive play. I really don't understand what he's thinking. It just ruins a huge community of players who love the series with no real benefit.

Actually this helps casual play very much. He literally made "DI" into what we all think the game does subconsciously. Before actually looking up and learning the Smash terms everyone always feels that "tilting the control stick in the opposite direction" will help you survive. At least I know I did and most of my casual friends did.


He did remove the excessive landing lag, replacing it with auto cancels on almost every character. Everyone has at least 1 safe aerial for approach without the need for mechanics like L-Cancelling, he just made them auto cancel but kept some aerials very laggy so it's a choice between approaching safely or risking it. I feel this game has a much deeper "choice" game.

 

[Neanderthal]

Actually this helps casual play very much. He literally made "DI" into what we all think the game does subconsciously. Before actually looking up and learning the Smash terms everyone always feels that "tilting the control stick in the opposite direction" will help you survive. At least I know I did and most of my casual friends did.

When I say "improve" the game, I don't mean that it doesn't help a player do well. I mean that it doesn't make the more game fun.
This makes the game less fun for a higher skill level and no change for casuals.
(Assuming fun to most people means fast offensive-encouraging play)

Also, most casuals wouldn't even know about this.

 

[Tristan_win]

When you have conflicting studies it's easy to think the one you prefer is accurate but the fact of the matter is we have three studies so far, two negative and one positive on KI/VI so clearly someone is wrong here.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You know what the funny thing about these studies are? They're both limited and the game's meta is barely uncovered yet.

Give. It. Time.

If it turns out to be bad, oh well. If, however, it doesn't end up affecting much, then whatever. But I say, we should wait. Wait and either adapt or just outright quit because if this game isn't what you wanted, you shouldn't be like, ashamed.

 

[ToadsterOven]

What benefit is it to Sakurai to put things like this in the game?
I can't see it improving casual play. This and things like excessive landing lag only serve to gimp competitive play. I really don't understand what he's thinking. It just ruins a huge community of players who love the series with no real benefit.

*facepalm* please please PLEASE take a look at the intelligent posts made both on here and the "rage effect" mechanic thread before you start acting like a drama queen on here!

 

[Skylit]

I discovered a neat little combo with Link that mostly works with the help of vectoring. Imagine your opponent recovering from below when you take out a bomb and throw it down at him. When it hits them, they're naturally vectoring up because well, they're holding up if they're jumping or pressing UP-B right? It hits them straight up, allowing you for a nice follow up...like a spike with his D-air.

You can get really creative with this offstage, throwing bombs upwards then throwing a bomb below for a double bomb hit...followed about a quick F-air, I call it...the bomb-bomb fair .

 

[NewGuy79]

I discovered a neat little combo with Link that mostly works with the help of vectoring. Imagine your opponent recovering from below when you take out a bomb and throw it down at him. When it hits them, they're naturally vectoring up because well, they're holding up if they're jumping or pressing UP-B right? It hits them straight up, allowing you for a nice follow up...like a spike with his D-air.

You can get really creative with this offstage, throwing bombs upwards then throwing a bomb below for a double bomb hit...followed about a quick F-air, I call it...the bomb-bomb fair .

see this is what we should be doing, figuring out ways to use this new mechanics to our advantage, not freaking out indiscriminately simple because its new, unknown, and that it MAY make our 10 year old combos harder to do.

Nice job Skylit ill make sure to try the bomb-bomb fair

 

[Alakaslam]

Good and easy to comprehend article. Cannot be said better, thanks!

*facepalm* please please PLEASE take a look at the intelligent posts made both on here and the "rage effect" mechanic thread before you start acting like a drama queen on here!

Not saying the subject is wrong (I kind of agree with him actually) but I think you refer to something like this http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb don't you?

Apologies for double post

 

[Conda]

Actually this helps casual play very much. He literally made "DI" into what we all think the game does subconsciously. Before actually looking up and learning the Smash terms everyone always feels that "tilting the control stick in the opposite direction" will help you survive. At least I know I did and most of my casual friends did.

Kinda makes you realise that DI effectively communicates vectoring's mechanics, if people thought this is how DI worked just by reading the term "directional influence", without having to do research.
Kinda make you realise it's a perfectly effective and concise name for explaining how DI works in smash 4.

 

[Chiroz]

Kinda makes you realise that DI effectively communicates vectoring's mechanics, if people thought this is how DI worked just by reading the term "directional influence", without having to do research.
Kinda make you realise it's a perfectly effective and concise name for explaining how DI works in smash 4.

Before you look up the term you can't know it exists. Players know that the more % there is the more you are knockbacked yet we don't have a name for that. Should we also name that?

Not everything needs a term and my post didn't talk about people understanding the term "DI", it talked about people thinking "VI" existed since the very first game and only learning they are wrong if they look up the Smash terminologies and mechanics.





Edit: So I was able to survive Pikachu's fresh Side-Smash at 180% being Pikachu and I was ONLY VIing downwards (No vertical VI), I think there's something we're missing. I don't think Pikachu should be able to survive another Pikachu's Side-Smash at 180% without any VI (Since we've established that VI is a square and not a circle doing downwards VI would be the same as doing no VI). I am really doubting it's a square.

 

[Neanderthal]

*facepalm* please please PLEASE take a look at the intelligent posts made both on here and the "rage effect" mechanic thread before you start acting like a drama queen on here!

I don't think it was that dramatic, but apologies if I jumped the gun.
Either way I think it's a valid discussion point how in the past couple iterations, changes are being made to cater to casual play... But in fact they are barely or not at all improving casual play while much further harming higher levels of play.
It's a puzzling trade off.
Anyway, possibly still too early for this discussion in regard to SSB4, but it is upsetting when it seemed like it was time for combos to thrive again... Till we discovered this mechanic that appears to limit them alot.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I don't see why people are so fed up about combos being gone. Combos start to become almost nonexistent around the 70% to 80% mark anyway, regardless of vectoring.

 

[ToadsterOven]

I don't see why people are so fed up about combos being gone. Combos start to become almost nonexistent around the 70% to 80% mark anyway, regardless of vectoring.

Mass hysteria + a storm full of ignorance rain? Best idea I can come up with anyhow As far as I recall, around that point and certainly once you hit the 100 percent mark, smash bros shifts from combos to build up your opponent's damage meter to knocking your opponent off the stage and ensure they don't come back at all costs!

 

[Neanderthal]

I don't see why people are so fed up about combos being gone. Combos start to become almost nonexistent around the 70% to 80% mark anyway, regardless of vectoring.

Exactly.
We like the difference in strategy at low damage and at high damage.
Makes it less repetitive.

That's the beauty of smash. The gameplay strategy changes so much as you play, making for very deep non repetitive gameplay for a fighter.

 

[Greave]

I think VI is a fine mechanic; I'd rather have that instead of the more cryptic DI. With that being said though, if it really does affect the combo game it would suck, but it's not VI's fault. It would only be a result of hitstun being too low. With VI and an adequate amount of hitstun, the combo/string game would be even more complex than in Melee.

 

[Alakaslam]

I think VI is a fine mechanic; I'd rather have that instead of the more cryptic DI. With that being said though, if it really does affect the combo game it would suck, but it's not VI's fault. It would only be a result of hitstun being too low. With VI and an adequate amount of hitstun, the combo/string game would be even more complex than in Melee.

Let us 64

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Exactly.
We like the difference in strategy at low damage and at high damage.
Makes it less repetitive.

That's the beauty of smash. The gameplay strategy changes so much as you play, making for very deep non repetitive gameplay for a fighter.

Well it seems like there are people who are too blind in rage and disappointment to think for a second.

 

[Neanderthal]

Well it seems like there are people who are too blind in rage and disappointment to think for a second.

That's true, but there's still a valid opinion there shared by many.
That the past couple games may have hindered higher level play, with little to no benefit to casual play anyway.
(At the time Brawl cane out, my casual self and friends all agreed brawl wasn't as fun as Melee because it felt slower. That's an independent view coming from casuals with no influence from the internet at the time.)

Once the rage passes I'm sure we can have better discussion about it.
For the moment, just fingers crossed that the meta game develops better than it appears now.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

That's true, but there's still a valid opinion there shared by many.
That the past couple games may have hindered higher level play, with little to no benefit to casual play anyway.
(At the time Brawl cane out, my casual self and friends all agreed brawl wasn't as fun as Melee because it felt slower. That's an independent view coming from casuals with no influence from the internet at the time.)

Once the rage passes I'm sure we can have better discussion about it.
For the moment, just fingers crossed that the meta game develops better than it appears now.

Agreed. For Smash 4, I believe that combos are still possible at lower percents, and vectoring really starts playing a part at higher percents.

My casual friends actually had opposite views and appreciated the different pace of Brawl. To this day, I have an overall mixed view of Brawl, but I still enjoy it a lot. Things like this are going to come down to preferences. Those who enjoy Smash 4 and what it brings to the table will play it. Those who don't.. well, they won't play it.

The main issue is that no one knows for sure where Smash 4 is heading in terms of the competitve scene. This is mainly why Brawl vs. Smash 4 vs. Melee arguments get started up. There is one group who says Smash 4 will succeed because of certain things. Another group says Smash 4 will fail because of certain things. Thus, arguments begin.

In the end, none of us have an answer right now, and it's going to take a while to get one.

 

[Gidy]

I'm actually excited to see how the meta develops. From what I've seen combo's are still possible and I'm curious to see how they perform around this mechanic.

...on the other hand, I'm gonna be really disappointed if it turns out to be a neutral heavy game.

 

[RanserSSF4]

This doesn't change much gameplay-wise honestly. You'll have to press the stick in a direction when you get hit - which you already had to do. This time, you just have to hold it in a different position, and it will have a different effect. But the role in gameplay is the same, and it requires the same amount of inputs in the course of the fight. It's not as earthshatteringly different as the name implies. Mathematically, yes. Gameplay-wise from the players' perspectives, no.

All it changes more than old DI mechanics from the other games is more drastically the % to kill, but we already know %-to-kill is higher this time around. It just makes it the case moreso, but that's no problem - offstage game has received a HUGE buff this time around, and everybody's recoveries have been improved to better compete in this offstage-strengthened meta. Therefore, we just need to adapt.

I definitly will adapt to this and try to take advantage of the ledge mechanics, but unfornately, I don't think a lot of people will adapt or give it a chance. I know it's based off opinions and that's fine, but if they don't like the game and still prefer the others, than play them instead.

 

[ChillySundance]

Comboing in smash 4 is entirely character-specific from what I've seen so far. Some characters have the luxury of being able to combo easily and effectively at low percents. Mario, Pikachu, Fox, etc. Some characters have basically no combo ability without the help of easily dodged projectiles (Link, Villager)

From what I've seen, low % KI only ruins combos for characters who have shaky combos to begin with.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I'm just giving out my two cents out there, but I think a lot don't seem to realize that combos aren't what makes fighting games hype or exciting to watch. It's mix-ups that makes most matches exciting to watch. Even in Melee, mix-ups was a huge thing and whenever someone made the right guess, it gets exciting and hype as hell. Smash 4 has combos, you just to need to make the right guess to keep them going, even in Melee. Other fighting games have done similar things (Except DI) and they are exciting to watch and yet, in smash bros, despite getting similar things, it's shoved off by a lot of Smash players because of that.

 

[edde]

2 questions

-does tapping the control stick many times make you add more vectors (reduce the total knockback more)?

-does air dodging after a hit like in brawl have any effects at all?

 

[Chiroz]

2 questions

-does tapping the control stick many times make you add more vectors (reduce the total knockback more)?

-does air dodging after a hit like in brawl have any effects at all?

You can't air dodge out of hitstun like in Brawl so the answer to your second question is no. Although moves that change momentum can help you survive.


I don't know about the first question though. I think no one knows right now.

 

[Sirgabite]

thank god vectoring does not compleatly take away those amazing combos that are almost frame pefrect because this game has melee'ish hitstun properties making it easier to follow up the attacks even if its vectored, if it had brawl hitstun this game would have even less combos then what brawl had and it would just be all neutral game and almost no exciting moments in a match

 

[Chiroz]

thank god vectoring does not compleatly take away those amazing combos that are almost frame pefrect because this game has melee'ish hitstun properties making it easier to follow up the attacks even if its vectored, if it had brawl hitstun this game would have even less combos then what brawl had and it would just be all neutral game and almost no exciting moments in a match

I was just watching those matches from the CT tournament and even though they didn't know about vectoring at that moment and even though the metagame is still evolving and it could "technically" become a campier game once it evolves, the matches were so awesome. So many combos. Ness PK-Fire to Grab to Down-Throw to Neutral Air to Grab to Forward Throw to Forward Air to Forward Ait to Forward Air. Zelda got like a 5 hit combo too. Granted they aren't "true" combos and with the addition of VI they might be harder to pull off, they still look so good.

 

[Jaxas]

2 questions
-does tapping the control stick many times make you add more vectors (reduce the total knockback more)?

I can test later to double check, but I'm almost positive it does not.
Smash DI appears to still be in the game, and VI appears to be read exactly the same as DI; namely, whatever direction you're holding your Circle Pad on the last frame of hitlag. Mashing down would likely SDI down a few times, and as long as you're pressing down at the right time you then VI as well.

Note, though, that we're only working with what we know so far; we could be wrong, but we wouldn't know yet because we haven't been able to test it extensively enough.

 

[Tagxy]

When you have conflicting studies it's easy to think the one you prefer is accurate but the fact of the matter is we have three studies so far, two negative and one positive on KI/VI so clearly someone is wrong here.

What negative studies?

Also, while the tests so far are definitely helpful, I wouldnt say anything regarding combos is definitive as of yet. Buffering is going to be very important when it comes to maximizing play and the 3DS isnt a terribly buffer input friendly system.

 

[GrownCannoli]

Now that I have had more time to think about it I think Vectoring is making things way to complicated. Stay with DI.

All it really needs to be is:
Hold towards the stage after get launched to survive longer! Or hold away from your opponents to escape a barrage of attacks!