Value of Religion

[Alphicans]

^This has nothing to do with the argument. No one has asserted this isn't the case. This has been brought up multiple times in this thread and it shouldn't be.

 

[Ussi]

^This has nothing to do with the argument. No one has asserted this isn't the case. This has been brought up multiple times in this thread and it shouldn't be.

I'm saying religion's value shouldn't be undermined from war.

 

[Jon Farron]

*reads first post to get back on track*

This topic is going to have some philosophical implications, but does not require any extensive knowledge in contemporary philosophy. I want to hear what people think about religion, and if it has any unique property that can only be given by it. Lets think about what religion does, how it helps people and its role in society. Also keep in mind this has nothing to do with god, although lots of religions assume there is a god. I do not intend this to be a debate about proving god.


Can someone show me that I am wrong? Am I missing something in religion? I also understand that I have not defined religion, and that is going to be very hard to do. Perhaps this is where we should start and continue from there.

It's this simple, if you take God out of the religion, it becomes worthless. Religion (and I'll take Christianity as an example, since that's what I know most about) is basically what is used to help people worship God better. You can't truly know God without reading the Bible and trying to understand Him more.

Of course, it is also possible to be a part of the religion read your Bible etc, but not fully believe or know Him.

For example there is a verse (I can't remember the exact verse or words, sorry) that talks about many people doing things in God's name, but God said something like "I never knew you". (Sorry I wish I could remember the exact one D: )

In that example, people have thought to know God through the religious practices, but have never tried to develop a relationship with Him.

Doing things in God's name is not the same as knowing Him.

Someone could easily say "yeah I believe in God" without ever trying to know Him.

In a book series I read, called Left Behind, there was a character in there who was very stubborn in trying to know God. She believed in Him, because of all the judgements and prophecies coming to life right before her eyes during the tribulation, but she didn't want to know Him. She was still affected by the Judgements. (people who become Christians after the rapture will be immune to certain judgements like the fire and brimstone burning people alive, but the earthquakes etc would probably still take effect )

Believing in Him is not the same as accepting Him as your savior, or wanting to know Him.


I think I went slightly off topic again, but the special value in religion is (and I'll say it again) having a better understanding, and personal relationship with God. If you take God out of it, it becomes useless and worthless. But the special value in religion, is being able to develop a personal relationship with God. Without God, it's worthless and meaningless.

 

[Alphicans]

Then say exactly that. To comment that there have been wars by other means adds no value to this discussion. The point of saying religion has caused wars is to say "look at this negative aspect about it. Now if there is nothing unique about religion in what it offers to humanity, then it would seem that religion is not only worthless, it is actually something that only causes pain." It is a way to strengthen the position of eliminating it from society.

 

[Ussi]

At this point i think comparisons will work best.

The Islamic Golden Age is one of the most prosperous times ever in the history of man, if not the most. The advancements to math, science, and medience were astounding. Learning become widespread with the discovery of paper (they took the method of making paper from the chinese who invented it). And it wasn't only Muslims, it was contributions from all faiths as freedom of religion existed. The decline started once people started wanting power seats of governor (not literally called but the equivalence i will say) and people were going back to their ignorant ways by being closed minded to stick to what their fathers did.. thus losing their touch with Islam when new inventions came (printing press) and power struggles began.

I made this point but no one paid attention to it

I can't really say this about all religion, but Islam has a positive affect on society and helps it prosper. In fact here is a good current example of Islamic housing doing very well http://www.eurojournals.com/mefe-6_10.pdf (15 minute read)

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I've lost my respect for you now =/


Thank you for telling me to be ashamed of my beliefs. >.>

You are welcome.

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall, you refuse to see why religion can have a special place for someone. If it's not for you, fine. But that doesn't mean people should take it away from everyone else. Regardless of how YOU see it as unnecessary.

This quote here tells me that if you have not read a single one of my posts. I REPEATEDLY say to the contrary, always starting with "Again," in order to make sure that your mind catches note of this, because it seems to keep slipping peoples' memory, in some strange process. I'll repeat for the FINAL time, I am NOT saying it is useless. Never have I said that a single time in this thread. It is simply NOT a required prerequisite to a healthy, functioning society. Please think about what I am saying here.

 

[GwJ]

For example there is a verse (I can't remember the exact verse or words, sorry) that talks about many people doing things in God's name, but God said something like "I never knew you". (Sorry I wish I could remember the exact one D: )

In that example, people have thought to know God through the religious practices, but have never tried to develop a relationship with Him.

Doing things in God's name is not the same as knowing Him.

Someone could easily say "yeah I believe in God" without ever trying to know Him.

In a book series I read, called Left Behind, there was a character in there who was very stubborn in trying to know God. She believed in Him, because of all the judgements and prophecies coming to life right before her eyes during the tribulation, but she didn't want to know Him. She was still affected by the Judgements. (people who become Christians after the rapture will be immune to certain judgements like the fire and brimstone burning people alive, but the earthquakes etc would probably still take effect )

Believing in Him is not the same as accepting Him as your savior, or wanting to know Him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You're basically saying that if someone does "x" (where "x" is something someone who truly "knows" God wouldn't do), then they are not actually true believers.

No true christian would kill somebody over an argument. If it DOES happen, then that person wasn't actually a real christian, right?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

^ That reminds something to the effect I hear constantly, even in intelligent debates on youtube. The religious people always say that the people who do certain things or think certain ways are not true representatives of their religion, but instead, they are. The most arbitrary and self-serving thing that can be said.

 

[Ussi]

A small group does not represent a whole

Plus there are people who would intentionally try to sabatoage an image of a group with misrepresentation.

Next, do you really want to use unknowledgeable people as represetives, or the ones who have studied their profession/religion/whatever?

 

[GwJ]

It's hard for a small group to represent the whole of christianity because everyone seems to have their own blasted version of the thing.

 

[Ussi]

Well in the case if Christianity, 1/3 of their knowledge folks (college level study or higher) leave christianity every year.

I had mentioned representation issues in the first page which is why i was defending that point.

 

[Aisu_Aiku]

I believe that religion does not hold much value in society. Qualities that people claim that are attained solely by being religious, such as morality, may be attained
via other manners. In the case of morality, religion is not neccesary. Religion is not required because a person has the ability to understand the idea of right and wrong,
without having to ponder what a religion believes is right or wrong.Morals can be acquired by careful thought. A person can see,by way of cause and effect, that
certain things are bad, and thus immoral.Hope and meaning are also ideas that religous people claim to obtain because of religion, but those also can be found by careful thought.
Meaning to life for an individual can be found by learning and trying new things in life and figuring out what certain things is enjoyable to the individual.
Hopelessness, is something that occurs in a persons mind due to events that are not favorable for them.Unfortunately, this may happen a lot to an individual,
because not every single event in their life will go the way that they want it to.Religion does not have the ability to solve this.Simply praying to God(s) will not magically erase
a persons problems.It is better for a person to find their way through their hardships. If something is not favorable for someone then they should take initiative and change it.
A person must realize that it is their life,only they have the ability to change it. So instead of having faith in God(s),they should have faith in themselves.

 

[Ussi]

Just gonna say Islam is a religion of action. As much as you pray to God for something, he won't help you until you take the first few steps towards action. This is in the Qur'an many times, i'll just cite the best surah that mentions this: surah al-saf,

Note: don't take the word fight as fighting others but as fighting for a cause.

My point: Islam promotes getting off your butt and to stop just asking for something. Do the actions that will get you where you want.

Also, White Mage, there will be people who insult your religion, don't get riled up by that. Isn't there somewhere in the bible to be patient? Didn't Jesus have to be patient with the people of his time to get his message across?

 

[Jon Farron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You're basically saying that if someone does "x" (where "x" is something someone who truly "knows" God wouldn't do), then they are not actually true believers.

No true christian would kill somebody over an argument. If it DOES happen, then that person wasn't actually a real christian, right?

It's still possible to know God, and do something that was taken out of context, misunderstood, or believing God wants you to do X when it's not really Him telling you.

My point was that anyone can say they believe in God, and do things in His name without really being a Christian and trying to get to know Him.


My uncle for example. He believes God exists, and has volunteered with Christian organizations, but he said he is not a Christian, and doesn't care to ever get to know God more.

 

[GwJ]

That's fine if you can cite an example with your uncle, you're still making the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Also, I think you should make a thread outlining your case for god. If you want to make it better, make it a case for a god, not the christian god since we can never agree on the legitimacy of scripture and it's easier to argue for a general god as well.

 

[Jon Farron]

Also, I think you should make a thread outlining your case for god. If you want to make it better, make it a case for a god, not the christian god since we can never agree on the legitimacy of scripture and it's easier to argue for a general god as well.

I've been thinking about doing that, but I really don't know how I would present the argument, because there isn't any "credible" scientific evidence for or against it.

 

[GwJ]

There's more to argumentation than scientific evidence. You have the rules of logic to use as well.

 

[Jon Farron]

Well, according to Holder, God isn't logical so that argument doesn't work either. :S

 

[GwJ]

Then show why he is logical in an argument if you think he's wrong.

 

[Ussi]

-Belief in God existed since the beginning of time. The first known time of a group going for atheism, is after the french revolution
-Russia and China tried to exradicate religion in their country but failed

Humans are superstitious. The concept of chance and luck replaces the concept of God. People take part of good luck rituals. Some people join cults like the UFO cult

Where did the mass before the big bang come from? Did it come from nothing? There has to be a starting point, and God starting it off makes the most sense.

Intelligent design

 

[GwJ]

Where did the mass before the big bang come from? Did it come from nothing? There has to be a starting point, and God starting it off makes the most sense.

You should check out Dr. Lawrence Krauss's "A Universe from Nothing." As far as I know, that's the current position of the scientific community on the matter problem.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Saying God started it raises more questions than answers. Logically speaking it is better to say that it is more likely existence is eternal, rather than some sort of benevolent/cognizant being that must be explained even more than what we have to explain already. Occam's Razor shaves off such an inexplicable thing.

 

[Ussi]

Can i get some of the questions that are raised?

I'll look into the Universe from Nothing.

Actually hurricane Sandy just knocked out my internet. Can't really do much for now. Will have to get back to this afterwards.

 

[GwJ]

I'll give you a link to the YouTube copy of the lecture, it's about an hour long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Whenever you get your internet back, take a look.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

It isn't anything you need me to tell you. You have to then explain why there is a "being", with all of its traits, eternally there. That is hard to explain, don't you think? Saying there is an entity, particularly a God one, is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary reasoning.

 

[Dre89]

Krauss is probably a good physicist, but has no idea when he's talking about God.

Don't listen to anyone who thinks a cosmological model can remove the necessity of a deity. To remove that necessity you need to prove that brute contingencies are logically possible.

Religion provides good things such as communities and happiness, but these things can be found elsewhere. The cons outweigh the pros given that the pros are not exclusive to religion.

It's also wrong to say that people use religion as a mask to commit. Whilst that certainly does happen, violence has also occurred in the name of theology. 200 people were killed in India because a pig walked into a Islamic holy land. Millions of girls in Africa and the ME have their genitals mutilated against their will, due to the religious belief that women shouldn't enjoy sex. Violence towards homosexuals is a result of religion. These are just a couple of examples. These would not have occurred had religion not existed.

 

[Ussi]

It isn't anything you need me to tell you. You have to then explain why there is a "being", with all of its traits, eternally there. That is hard to explain, don't you think? Saying there is an entity, particularly a God one, is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary reasoning.

Reasoning:

-The brain has a specific part in the frontal lobe dedicted to being stimulated by spiritually
-signs point to the fact believing in God is natural as it fulfills the conditions to be consider natural
-without God, supertitution still exists, rituals for good luck exist.
-intelligent design (natural selection and evolution fall under here except that man evolved from a different creation)
-One of the most, if not the most, prosperous time of man is the Islamic Golden Age. Length of it and the amount of progress done is extraordinary

Trying to explain why God exists is like trying to explain how a giant mass came to be. God can't have characteristics of creation so he can't have a beginning nor end otherwise that would mean he was created.


@above there is only one Islamic holy land and that's Makkah (Mecca) or do you mean the pig entered a mosque in India? The killing is wrong and ignorance from the group that did that though. But India has a lot of problems from the culture.

(Internet is still down, have 4G but not unlimited data plan so still can't watch the youtube vid)

 

[Jon Farron]

It isn't anything you need me to tell you. You have to then explain why there is a "being", with all of its traits, eternally there. That is hard to explain, don't you think? Saying there is an entity, particularly a God one, is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary reasoning.

Um, It's just as hard to explain where a floating mass that exploded came from.


Actually, it's easier to say where God came from. He was always there.

There's no logic or reasoning behind it, this is where the other thing called faith comes in. He just IS.

You have the mentality of 'seeing is believing" Well, you can't see an atom, how do you know it's there? O.o Because somebody told you that they can see atom's through a microscope. Why is it any different if someone who knows God tells you He is real and how he has worked in their life with VISIBLE changes?



Also thank you Ussi, you do a much better job at explaining things than me :S


@The violence towards gays.

That is an example of people taking things too far. If you don't think it's right, you can tell them a few times what you believe, but after that it's up to God to deal with them. Humans are not supposed to judge people. That's God's job.
(Of course, there's still the controversy of whether God destroyed Sodom for being homosexuals, or because they were rapists. I personally believe He destroyed Sodom because they were rapists and murderers.)

@Girls in Africa.

Was that based off of Christianity, or something else? If it was based off of Christianity, I'm going to assume they got that idea from the verse that says women will now bear the pains of child birth. Those pains are the labor pains, not about enjoying sex or not. :S

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Waiting for Alphicans to say we are off topic again. XD

Reasoning:

-The brain has a specific part in the frontal lobe dedicted to being stimulated by spiritually

Self-transcendence, that would be called. That is not directly a God proof, nor is it directly spiritual. We simply have parts of our brain that make sure we know where we are and things like that. For example, we can have out-of-body experiences if we stimulate parts of our brain that can actually make the brain thing we are somewhere else.

-signs point to the fact believing in God is natural as it fulfills the conditions to be consider natural

What are you talking about here? o__o

-without God, supertitution still exists, rituals for good luck exist.

...Okay?

-intelligent design (natural selection and evolution fall under here except that man evolved from a different creation)

Intelligent design is emphatically false. The universe is full of chaos, the Sun dying, our galaxy going towards a blackhole, and most importantly, evolution is a TRIAL AND ERROR concept. That is what humans do when they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Not an all-knowing benevolent God.

-One of the most, if not the most, prosperous time of man is the Islamic Golden Age. Length of it and the amount of progress done is extraordinary

Um?

Um, It's just as hard to explain where a floating mass that exploded came from.

Why? Does that explosion have omniscience? Omnipotence? Benevolent? Cognizance? Free will (a fallacious concept all in itself)?

Actually, it's easier to say where God came from. He was always there.

Yeah, it's easy to SAY. But we're not here to discuss what we can say are we? But rather what we can explain.

There's no logic or reasoning behind it, this is where the other thing called faith comes in. He just IS.

Oh wait, there's the explanation... except it isn't one. Why are we talking in the debate hall if this is your view? Why are you wanting to talk about this? How do you expect to convince anyone by this logic?

You have the mentality of 'seeing is believing" Well, you can't see an atom, how do you know it's there? O.o Because somebody told you that they can see atom's through a microscope. Why is it any different if someone who knows God tells you He is real and how he has worked in their life with VISIBLE changes?

Scientists know of atoms through empirical testing White Mage. We know they exist because we can know of their existence through testing, not because someone said "Oh, there are these atom things, and it makes logical sense to believe such things exist" (even though that is already ahead of a God concept right there).

 

[Ussi]

Belief in God being natural- there is a nature vs nuture, and belief in God appears to be natural over being nuture. Nuture as in instilled by the enviroment.

Superstition has people believing in some unknown. If anything i could say they believe in the God of Chance or Luck

Why is the sun dying not intelligent design? Nothing but God can be eternal. What is the chaos of the universe? Whats wrong with the galaxy heading to a black hole? Its not like the galaxy can last forever either.

The whole Islamic Golden Age, whoops, thats for value of religion not proving God. I just copied my points i made earlier.

Also, what are points that God can't exist?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

See, Holder and people like him are why I stopped posting here. Did you seriously continue posting in this thread rather than ducking out with your tail between your legs after that shameful post where you said you can't be expected to back up your counter to an example that multiple people said could hold weight?

Seriously, ignore WM and do something productive instead.

 

[Ussi]

I'm having a hard time understanding who is being refered to as "you"

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I refers to Ryker.
Every other pronoun refers to Holder.

Also, for the sake of playing devil's advocate, why does the fact that other factors can replicate the pros simply cancel them out? Should not the ease and practicality of the pros cause them to still hold some value even if lessened that you can weigh against the negatives. What of the point that something else will still cause the negatives lessening the value of removal? The scale being used seems very odd.

 

[Jon Farron]

Why? Does that explosion have omniscience? Omnipotence? Benevolent? Cognizance? Free will (a fallacious concept all in itself)?

Well where did the mass come from? O.o

Spoiler

You still can't tell me can you?

Intelligent design is emphatically false. The universe is full of chaos, the Sun dying, our galaxy going towards a blackhole, and most importantly, evolution is a TRIAL AND ERROR concept. That is what humans do when they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Not an all-knowing benevolent God.

Intelligent design is false? If someone paints a picture of something, it didn't just randomly get thrown together. It took that person thought of how they wanted it to look like, and they painted it. When someone designs a house, it didn't just get randomly thrown together, they had to think of how to make it support itself etc.

It's the same concept with God. He designed everything the way it is so that it flows together. Just think about trees, they provide shade, building material, AND clean our air! The food chain, if certain animals didn't eat other animals, we would have an over population, of, well, everything. Food in general! Since evolution is such a trial and error, isn't it very likely we would've eaten something that killed us?


The universe is full of chaos because Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and brought sin into the world, INCLUDING the entire universe we live in.

Yeah, it's easy to SAY. But we're not here to discuss what we can say are we? But rather what we can explain.

You know when I said say I meant explain. *facepalm*

Oh wait, there's the explanation... except it isn't one. Why are we talking in the debate hall if this is your view? Why are you wanting to talk about this? How do you expect to convince anyone by this logic?

I get the feeling you're not even trying to understand where I'm coming from. You're stuck on your view and not trying to see the other side. I am trying to see where you're coming from, so I can help you understand better, but when I asked you about it you avoided the question! D:

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. I'm trying to get through to you to help you understand where I'm coming from, but you won't let me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I only skim through this thread because it became laughable.

But when I read somebody using the words "evolution" and "randomness" in the same context I want to strangle myself. Evolution is *not* random, it is a law of nature.

 

[Aisu_Aiku]

Just gonna say Islam is a religion of action. As much as you pray to God for something, he won't help you until you take the first few steps towards action. This is in the Qur'an many times, i'll just cite the best surah that mentions this: surah al-saf,

Note: don't take the word fight as fighting others but as fighting for a cause.

My point: Islam promotes getting off your butt and to stop just asking for something. Do the actions that will get you where you want.

That's great. Yes, Religion has positive ideas. But my stance is, if or if not Religion has any values that cannot be attained by other means.Religion seems to derive
from ideas in ancient texts. These texts are a rough guideline to life and were written by individuals, by careful us of thought, and their belief of what the correct way of living is. The individuals that created the texts, created them by use of thought. Therefore, anyone is capable of creating their own idea of how life should be lived, by using careful thought.

 

[Ussi]

I'm sure an illiterate man wrote the Qur'an that explains some recently discovered sciences, let alone wrote a book

 

[Holder of the Heel]

See, Holder and people like him are why I stopped posting here. Did you seriously continue posting in this thread rather than ducking out with your tail between your legs after that shameful post where you said you can't be expected to back up your counter to an example that multiple people said could hold weight?

Seriously, ignore WM and do something productive instead.

I'm confused as to what you are referring to here, this is kind of vague?

Belief in God being natural- there is a nature vs nuture, and belief in God appears to be natural over being nuture. Nuture as in instilled by the enviroment.

I'm still lost on this.

Superstition has people believing in some unknown. If anything i could say they believe in the God of Chance or Luck

I am not entirely sure how this is a God-proof. People just believe in things irrationally through conditioning or misinformation.

Why is the sun dying not intelligent design? Nothing but God can be eternal. What is the chaos of the universe? Whats wrong with the galaxy heading to a black hole? Its not like the galaxy can last forever either.

The point is that things are randomly hurdling to their death. And you also neglected to address evolution, the most glaring counter to the idea of intelligent design, it's the only one that's really needed.

Also, what are points that God can't exist?

There isn't proof that a God doesn't exist (only that it is seemingly unlikely because of the more questions that must be answered), though there are problems of course with traditional deities (theism). With Christianity there are things such as major scientific and moral mistakes and mishaps in the bible, its inconsistencies with history, its origin, ridiculous things like living 1,000 years or Noah's Ark among others in the bible, problems with concepts such as eternity, free will, good and evil, nonphysical-ness, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, among a ton of other things.

 

[Ussi]

Belief in God being natural means people are born with the belief in God. Like they are born knowing they have to eat.

evolution is a TRIAL AND ERROR concept. That is what humans do when they DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Not an all-knowing benevolent God

Humans don't know what they are doing. What does that have to do with God?

Besides humans make something their goal in life and strive for it. You can ask anybody and they will say "i'm doing ___ with my life".


As for free will, good and evil, omni_____ what are your problems which each issue?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Belief in God being natural means people are born with the belief in God. Like they are born knowing they have to eat.

But people aren't born deists or theists.

Humans don't know what they are doing. What does that have to do with God?

Besides humans make something their goal in life and strive for it. You can ask anybody and they will say "i'm doing ___ with my life".

You're missing my point.

You are saying that God has designed the universe and the life in it with intelligent design. Except, the universe is chaotic and a bit arbitrary, and on the topic of evolution that we are on, much more telling, the precious life that our God loves more than anyone or anything else could, makes it so animals and humans develop through a painful trial and error process that a lot of the time involves entire species' to fall. It shows a lack of benevolence and the lack of knowledge on how humans should be, despite being an all-knowing all-loving God. Absolutely lacking in fore-thought and completely cruel.

Well where did the mass come from? O.o

Spoiler

You still can't tell me can you?

That's right I can't, and yet, that doesn't give you any grounds whatsoever. And retreating back, ignoring my questions on your position, trying to ask me about mine, tells me that you don't have an answer either, now do you?

My position is that it seems unlikely that there is a God, but I do not know for sure because of the lack of scientific knowledge we have on the subject. So unfortunately, asking me that question doesn't make me lose ground on my position, nor give you any, nor answers those questions I posed to you.

Intelligent design is false? If someone paints a picture of something, it didn't just randomly get thrown together. It took that person thought of how they wanted it to look like, and they painted it. When someone designs a house, it didn't just get randomly thrown together, they had to think of how to make it support itself etc.

But... we aren't a painting? We're not in a house?

It's the same concept with God. He designed everything the way it is so that it flows together. Just think about trees, they provide shade, building material, AND clean our air! The food chain, if certain animals didn't eat other animals, we would have an over population, of, well, everything. Food in general! Since evolution is such a trial and error, isn't it very likely we would've eaten something that killed us?

So things have functions, I get that. But that doesn't mean it was constructed. I'm also confused as to your last sentence and its point... That happens to animals unless they have a keen sense for it, which is developed through evolution in order to counter that.

You know when I said say I meant explain. *facepalm*

I'd think that with anyone but you at this point, unfortunately. I don't mean offense by it, it is just kind of how this has gone so far. I'm sticking around hoping to help you out though.

I get the feeling you're not even trying to understand where I'm coming from. You're stuck on your view and not trying to see the other side. I am trying to see where you're coming from, so I can help you understand better, but when I asked you about it you avoided the question! D:

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. I'm trying to get through to you to help you understand where I'm coming from, but you won't let me.

I entertain any view posited by someone coupled with an explanation as to that view. You, even when questioned, responded that I did not even try to listen. I listened, and I heard nothing. I'm still willing to listen, you just have to kind of give me something here. Through me a bone perhaps? A discussion is a two-way street my friend.