Value of Religion

[Ussi]

As for the value of God, this is separate from the value of any traditional deity worship. If religion was literally just a personal relationship with some idea of a omnipresent loving being, then practically almost all of the issues and faults that could be associated with religion now would vanish in an instant. The simple belief of a theistic being isn't harmful in and of itself (while incredibly wrong in science and logic, but nevertheless harmless), and it is also superfluous, and not ultimately needed (a healthy society can be imagined without anyone like this). Such a belief would literally be deism just with the belief that this God can give you hope and comfort. You do not fit this description however, and most don't.

If belief in God was illogical why do the founders of logic believe in God? Why would there be a specific part of the brain that is stimulated by spirituality if science was against it?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

This thread is just ridiculous but out of some sick sense of duty I am going to continue posting. o_o

Yeah I don't see "atheists are morally corrupt" anywhere.

...

Let me spell it out for you, if you are being genuine here.

The first quote says that morals have derived from religion and that if Christianity had never been written, we would be a bunch of heathens killing each other. The second quote you talk about a list of negative qualities mentioned in the bible, and you then you say that the VOID that religion leaves behind, these things are filled in. You confirm this in the NEXT quote by saying that these things are presently being filled in the void of people right now. You go even further to say that humans have a sinful nature (in other words, a lowly view of humanity). As for the sinful nature part, that isn't surprising, that is a Christian belief, even the symbol of it is the cross your lord and savior was sacrificed on. Christian's have a dark and sinful outlook on life, and that is where religion comes in to save you. So basically, as a Christian, you are doing what you are supposed to.

That is only part of the fact. The personal relationship with God, causes you to recognize that you are not the one in control of your life, and at any minute when you get off track he can pull the plug and cause a disaster to happen in order to humble you and steer you back in the right direction.

Hebrews 12:4-11
"In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."

This is essentially a long version of what I have said with examples. You're doing that thing again where you are acting like I am wrong and you are right but you aren't disagreeing with me factually.

If belief in God was illogical why do the founders of logic believe in God? Why would there be a specific part of the brain that is stimulated by spirituality if science was against it?

Um... the founders of logic said MANY wrong things. Just because someone has founded something, doesn't mean they then do everything perfectly and understand what they have founded the best and apply it the best. Are we really to say that because the founders of logic were religious (particularly considering how religious back then was) we must then say the concept of God has no flaws or dilemmas? Trust me, research on all the logical problems of the concept, and think to yourself, "If I say this, does that make this problem just go away?" I'll tell you right now, it doesn't. Nor would I think you would believe everything Aristotle says, or the things the other Ancient Greek philosophers have said (even they have realized problems with God that they couldn't solve).

 

[GwJ]

Could you imagine a world without religion? Nearly all of our morals have come from a religion, whether you want to believe it or not. If the Bible was never written, and if we had evolved, we would be no better than animals. Fighting, killing, eating each other with no sense of right and wrong. Just look at the African countries who have never heard of God, look at how savage those people are! Could you imagine living around people like that? So yes, it IS necessary.

I'm sorry, but did you really just say that? I really hope you didn't just say that.

 

[Jon Farron]

This thread is just ridiculous but out of some sick sense of duty I am going to continue posting. o_o



...

Let me spell it out for you, if you are being genuine here.

The first quote says that morals have derived from religion and that if Christianity had never been written, we would be a bunch of heathens killing each other. The second quote you talk about a list of negative qualities mentioned in the bible, and you then you say that the VOID that religion leaves behind, these things are filled in. You confirm this in the NEXT quote by saying that these things are presently being filled in the void of people right now. You go even further to say that humans have a sinful nature (in other words, a lowly view of humanity). As for the sinful nature part, that isn't surprising, that is a Christian belief, even the symbol of it is the cross your lord and savior was sacrificed on. Christian's have a dark and sinful outlook on life, and that is where religion comes in to save you. So basically, as a Christian, you are doing what you are supposed to.

I was going by your belief that we evolved. If we had evolved, we wouldn't be any better off than animals. That is what i'm saying. I do not believe we evolved, I believe we were created and given special characteristics that separate us from the animals.

Now, still going by the belief that we evolved, we technically would be just as low as the animals, with a higher intelligence that we would've gained over a long time. In that long time, we probably would've wiped ourselves out, because if we had evolved our population would've been like 3 people or something at the time. -.-

This has nothing to do with atheists having bad morals. I never said they have bad morals. I said they put their trust in materialistic and fleshly things that will wear out overtime, leaving them broken in the end. This isn't true for EVERYONE, but for most it is. I'm not trying to insult you here, so don't even go there.

This is essentially a long version of what I have said with examples. You're doing that thing again where you are acting like I am wrong and you are right but you aren't disagreeing with me factually.

Ok, I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not agreeing with you while disagreeing with you.


@Jumpman and everyone else. Sorry, I did not mean that in a racist way at all. Sorry it looked like that. :S

I was just using those countries as an example of how a place without God shows just how brutal humans can be. Once missionaries go and show them the word of God, you would never have thought it was the same people as before.

As humans, we were all created equal, but without God (or living in a God based society) it can show just how evil we can be.

 

[Skadorski]

What do you mean by "We were all created equal"?
Just to clear things up.

 

[Jon Farron]

God created all humans equal. IE: Nobody is better than the other. We are all capable of the same faults and achievements. (To a certain extent, like say a paralyzed person couldn't do gymnastics very well )

 

[Skadorski]

But some people are born with mental disorders and physical impairments.
I'm not trying to say that all people shouldn't have equal rights, but I don't think all humans are born (or created) "equal".

 

[Jon Farron]

In God's eyes, those things don't matter. In the end, the only things that matter are whether or not you sincerely believe in Him. In His eyes, a person with a crippled arm isn't any better than a professional athlete, a poor person isn't any better than a millionaire etc.

Of course, if someone was mentally disabled to the point where they couldn't understand anything, God uses fair judgement. Each person goes through a stage of innocence. The stage of innocence usually goes away once you know for yourself right from wrong and are able to make your own choices. (usually lose innocence between 7-13) Those who are still in the innocent stage, are only going by what their parents or teachers have taught them, and haven't learned to form their "own" opinion. If the rapture were to happen right now, those who are innocent and haven't been able to make a decision for themselves whether they believe in Him or not would be taken up. With mentally disabled people, their innocence could last a lifetime, if you know what I mean.

 

[Skadorski]

So you meant to say we are all created equal in religious factors?

 

[Ussi]

We are equal to life but what we can do is not equal.

Some people are born into poverty some people born into wealth. People have their own life that is unique, gotta find your own purpose.

This is from a practicial standpoint.

When it comes to being equal to life in God's eyes, that also includes then his creations, animals. Taking the life of an animal unjustly (ie not protecting yourself or to eat) is not pleasing to God

 

[Skadorski]

I can agree to that.
I would say that humans being equal to animals in God's eyes would depend on the religion, but I also agree to that.

 

[Jon Farron]

When it comes to being equal to life in God's eyes, that also includes then his creations, animals. Taking the life of an animal unjustly (ie not protecting yourself or to eat) is not pleasing to God

Every creature, in the beginning before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, ate plants. After they ate the forbidden fruit, and sin came into the world, it became a struggle for survival. The animals started eating each other, the ground now had to be tended to etc. It became natural for humans to hunt and kill the animals for meat after that. Is it wrong? Yes, but it's now necessary for survival. So yeah I guess I agree with that lol

Also, Jesus ate fish so there you go.

But, humans are NOT equal to animals, because God created man in His own image and gave man dominion over the creatures of the earth.

Genesis 1:27-28
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

I would say that humans being equal to animals in God's eyes would depend on the religion

Yeah pretty much this...

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I was going by your belief that we evolved. If we had evolved, we wouldn't be any better off than animals. That is what i'm saying. I do not believe we evolved, I believe we were created and given special characteristics that separate us from the animals.

No, if he HADN'T evolved, we would not be any better off than other animals. I'm still confused as to why you deny evolution, that's a thing. There is evidence. Unless you are one of those people that belief that evidence is there to test our faith, like how some people feel about dinosaurs... well, I can't help you then.

Now, still going by the belief that we evolved, we technically would be just as low as the animals, with a higher intelligence that we would've gained over a long time. In that long time, we probably would've wiped ourselves out, because if we had evolved our population would've been like 3 people or something at the time. -.-

I'm confused again. We have lesser animals that have evolved, are evolving, existing, living, without having wiped each other out and have not wiped each other out. With the growing existence of intelligence, animals grow more and more social and dare I say, moral through the understanding of conduct. Also, there were in fact several branches of our ancestors that were wiped out from not being able to adapt. I've actually recently read upon this in my Anthropology class, really interesting stuff.

This has nothing to do with atheists having bad morals. I never said they have bad morals. I said they put their trust in materialistic and fleshly things that will wear out overtime, leaving them broken in the end. This isn't true for EVERYONE, but for most it is. I'm not trying to insult you here, so don't even go there.

Okay, I was going to continue this, but I'm not. I'm just going to ask this: Do you think that without religion this "void" can be filled with things that make people happy and good natured? If your answer is yes, then my point stands, for again, I'm not trying to contend for the uselessness of religion, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying it isn't a necessary value for the human race.

Ok, I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not agreeing with you while disagreeing with you.

I spoke of religion giving hope, value, and such things to people. You say that is not all, in some attempt to give religion a unique gift outside of these things, but you merely describe with bible passages how it gives hope, value and such things to people. In other words, you didn't disagree with me factually, you are just trying to pretend that what you are saying is something more than what I'm saying.

@Jumpman and everyone else. Sorry, I did not mean that in a racist way at all. Sorry it looked like that. :S[/QUOTE]

I somehow doubt that is what he was getting at, but I won't speak for him.

And humans are NOT equal to animals, because God created man in His own image and gave man dominion over the creatures of the earth.

This is off topic, but something I have always found curious. What does it mean when it is said that humans were created in God's image? This is to say he appears like a human? But I am under the impression that is most certainly false. So what does that mean exactly?

 

[Jon Farron]

I believe it means just that. We were created in God's image, meaning we were created to look like Him and have godly characteristics. (This is different from godly powers) So yes, I would say He appears Human. Why do you think it would be false? o:


Also, I said earlier I believe in forms of evolution. That form would be micro evolution. Micro evolution would be two dogs breeding to create a dog that looks like both of them, eventually leading to a different breed of dog when continued. Macro evolution is going from one species to a different one. That, I do not believe.


"Also, there were in fact several branches of our ancestors that were wiped out from not being able to adapt. I've actually recently read upon this in my Anthropology class, really interesting stuff."

You basically just confirmed what I said.


And Holder, you're still not understanding... It's about having a personal relationship with God, not just hope etc. Ok having the personal relationship does give hope etc, but the unique gift is being close to God! You can't get that out of something else.

I guess that answers the thread title... The value in religion, is to have a personal relationship with God that you would be unable to obtain otherwise.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I believe it means just that. We were created in God's image, meaning we were created to look like Him and have godly characteristics. (This is different from godly powers) So yes, I would say He appears Human. Why do you think it would be false? o:

God being nonphysical (having no properties), being omnipresent, and usually how people say that God can't be described, I recall a lot of religious philosophers saying that you can't discuss God because everything we could try to say about him is wrong, i.e. we use earthly, physical means to describe things. I'm not saying I have any issues, I'm just genuinely curious as to the meaning of the passage.

"Also, there were in fact several branches of our ancestors that were wiped out from not being able to adapt. I've actually recently read upon this in my Anthropology class, really interesting stuff."

You basically just confirmed what I said.

One, if you believe what I just said, then you must believe in "macro evolution", so it's kind of a silly jab to make in an argument. At any rate, it wasn't from a lack of intelligence, it's the simple fact that species' occasionally fail from not adapting. It has nothing to do with not being smart enough, there are ton of animals dumber than the species' I am discussing that are thriving right now, and have thrived.

And Holder, you're still not understanding... It's about having a personal relationship with God, not just hope etc. Ok having the personal relationship does give hope etc, but the unique gift is being close to God! You can't get that out of something else.

I'm talking about the potential for a world to be healthy and perfectly functioning without religion. Yes, religion by definition gives something unique, but I'm saying that it is superfluous to a healthy and perfectly functioning society. Once more, not valueless, just not necessary for that end. It is you who misunderstands, that is all I'm trying to get across.

 

[Jon Farron]

You know what, we keep coming back to square one here.


Why do you think religion is superfluous, and not necessary? Explain please.
Also, you DO realize that a perfect and healthy world would require people to have known the Bible's teachings on right and wrong, right?



I don't believe in macro evolution, you were confirming what I said, which was based on the idea that we evolved. (Which I don't believe)

 

[Ussi]

At this point i think comparisons will work best.

The Islamic Golden Age is one of the most prosperous times ever in the history of man, if not the most. The advancements to math, science, and medience were astounding. Learning become widespread with the discovery of paper (they took the method of making paper from the chinese who invented it). And it wasn't only Muslims, it was contributions from all faiths as freedom of religion existed. The decline started once people started wanting power seats of governor (not literally called but the equivalence i will say) and people were going back to their ignorant ways by being closed minded to stick to what their fathers did.. thus losing their touch with Islam when new inventions came (printing press) and power struggles began.

 

[GwJ]

Why do you think religion is superfluous, and not necessary? Explain please.

Because, assuming you hold other religions as lesser than yours, we've existed for plenty of time without Christianity and did just fine. Do you honestly think the world is some kind of haven now that we have Christianity?

Also, you DO realize that a perfect and healthy world would require people to have known the Bible's teachings on right and wrong, right?

Explain how the bible teachers a perfect and healthy world.

I don't believe in macro evolution, you were confirming what I said, which was based on the idea that we evolved. (Which I don't believe)

It's fine that you don't believe it, but science tends to disagree with your opinion.

 

[Jon Farron]

Are you Muslim Ussi? Just wondering


Anyway, each religion has basically formed the culture for where it was. Europe was heavily influenced by The Roman Catholic Church, America has been heavily influenced by Christianity, China and Japan and parts of India, Hinduism and Bhuddism (I think, correct me if I mixed these up) Israel is Judaism, the list goes on. The impact religion has had on these country's culture is practically irreversible. You can't just take it out.

I believe we all have a subconscious and innate quality that searches for a higher power and something to worship and follow after. Even if society were to eventually move past religion, that doesn't mean people would stop believing in God.

@Jumpman, the Bible doesn't teach about a perfect world, but it teaches qualities that would be required in a perfect world. For example, many (if not all) of The 10 Commandments

 

[GwJ]

The impact religion has had on these country's culture is practically irreversible. You can't just take it out.

Well of course you can't reverse history, but teachings can be. Don't forgot that Christianity was not the first religion to bless our world. Do we still feel the effects of Roman polytheistic religion on European society today?

Even if society were to eventually move past religion, that doesn't mean people would stop believing in God.

The current trends of the upcoming generations tend to disagree with you.

@Jumpman, the Bible doesn't teach about a perfect world, but it teaches qualities that would be required in a perfect world. For example, many (if not all) of The 10 Commandments

I don't really care about the 10 commandments. They should be called the "4 things to keep God from feeling unloved and 6 common sense things"

How we interpret the bible in our lives comes almost NOWHERE from the 10 commandments, but from the content of the bible itself. Judging to point in time where we are today, I'd say the bible's done a pretty bad job and making a world with qualities required to be in a perfect world.

 

[Jon Farron]

The current trends of the upcoming generations tend to disagree with you.

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I can see that.

How we interpret the bible in our lives comes almost NOWHERE from the 10 commandments, but from the content of the bible itself. Judging to point in time where we are today, I'd say the bible's done a pretty bad job and making a world with qualities required to be in a perfect world.

The Bible is NOT trying to create a perfect world, in fact, it states that in the end the world will become a nightmare (before the rapture). Just look at all of the characteristics in the verse above, and try telling me that this generation is not all of those things. If anything, it has done a great job in telling us how things will get worse. I could go pull out a whole list of verses explaining the last days, and I could go find many things that go hand-in-hand with them if you wanted me to.


Actually, I think I'm gonna go ahead and pull some highlights from here.

Spoiler

every reference in both the old and new testaments that refer to the last days is predicated on the assumption that Israel goes from being a people scattered across the entire planet to a mighty nation (See Ezekiel 37:21-22). In fact, God said that He would make Israel a nation in a single day, and He fulfilled this promise on May 14, 1948 at 4 PM in the afternoon when David Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel, stood up in Independence Hall in Tel Aviv and formally announced the formation of the Nation of Israel. We also know from Matthew 24 that the events of these last days, from the re-birth of Israel as a nation until the Battle of Armageddon and the start of the Millennial Reign of Christ, will occur within a single generation.

^This should be the biggest wake up call right now.

The signs of nature that tell us we are in the last days are even more plentiful than the signs in the heavens. Floods and droughts of Biblical proportion have certainly increased in both frequency and intensity. From watching the evening news and the local newspaper it would seem that anyone not floating away in one of these extremes must certainly be perishing in the other extreme. Natural disaster damages for 2011 were five times higher than the average for the past ten years and were double 2010’s total of $130 billion. Earthquake activity has increased dramatically in both frequency and intensity while dormant volcanoes all over our planet are coming back to life. The “vapors and columns of smoke” which the Bible predicts will occur in the end times are closing large chunks of airspace to commercial aircraft while raining ashes on surrounding towns and villages. The Japanese earthquake in 2011 was the costliest natural disaster in all of recorded history. Japan hit the apocalyptic trifecta with an 8.9 magnitude earthquake that moved the entire planet several inches off its rotational axis, a tsunami where a 30 foot high wall of water traveled as much as 3 miles inland, and a triple nuclear meltdown with still untold and horribly foreboding consequences.

Major wildfires are becoming far more common in the United States, Australia, and the former Soviet Union as well as many other nations in our world. Hurricanes have not only increased in frequency and intensity but are also occurring in places never seen before in our world. The number of record low temperatures set in the United States last year is only rivaled by the number of record high temperatures.

My mocking friends are constantly accusing me of falling over the apocalyptic edge every time a natural disaster occurs. They are also wrong. I realize that nature has been full of tragedies ever since the beginning and that there will be tragedies right up until the end. It is not the fact that these tragedies occur that is so unique, it is the frequency and intensity at which they are occurring now that is prophetically significant. We have become so numb from witnessing natural disasters that we scarcely noticed the greatest loss of life from nature when, starting in June 2011, 13 million people were affected in the worst drought in decades to strike eastern Africa. The death toll from this horrible famine ran into the tens of thousands and included 30,000 children.

All of the traditional signs of the last days have not only been in place for many months now, but they also continue to intensify with each passing day. One would expect the rapture of the Church at any moment based upon these signs alone and yet there is something more – much more – that has the world on edge. It is a pervasive feeling that something really big is about to happen. This feeling is exceptionally difficult to define. Christians hopefully look for the return of the Messiah. Many in the New Age Movement look for the Age of Pisces to end on the winter solstice on December 21, 2012, and for the Age of Aquarius to begin as the earth’s equatorial plane aligns exactly with the center of our galaxy. Buddhists look for the return of Maitreya sometime in the very near future. Mayans predict and end of an epoch on December 21, 2012, and a new epoch to begin. The Aztec look for the return of the flying serpent, Quetzalcoatl, sometime around the end of 2012. Aztecs also predict the possible end of time, as we know it, and possibly the end of the world. The I-Ching independently predicts the end to occur on the winter solstice this year. Meanwhile, the Zohar, which is a collection of books in the mystical Jewish Kabbalah from 13th century Spain, talks about the appearance of the Messiah at about this same general time. According to these texts, all of the kings of the world will come together in Rome, which will then be destroyed by God. This closely parallels the prophecy of Saint Malachi, the Bishop of Armagh, who was summoned to Rome in 1139 AD by Pope Innocent II and while there had a vision in which God revealed the 112 future popes, including the last pope, who will come to power and witness the destruction of Rome. Muslims look for the return of the Mahdi, or Twelfth Imam at about this time, while teenagers around the world look for the return of the twelfth season of American Idol.

(This does not mean the world will end on the 21st, rather some major will happen, and Christianity is not the only religion that believes this)

Matt. 24:36-44 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, partying, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

(Marrying and giving in marriage=getting married and divorced multiple times)



42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. (Son of Man=Jesus)

The entire world is also on edge because of an incredible worldwide political power vacuum. The Arab Spring revolt has created deadly riots in dozens of nations and yet there is neither a leader nor a clearly defined goal. The same is true for the Occupy Wall Street movement that has taken place across our nation and has spilled beyond our borders into Europe. An incredible vacuum exists for a worldwide leader and yet no leader has come forth. We also know that nature abhors a vacuum. Paul Henri Spaak, the post WWII premier of Belgium and Secretary General of the United Nations from 1957 – 1961 said on January 1, 1993:



We do not want another committee. We have too many already. What we want is a man of sufficient stature to hold the allegiance of all people, and to lift us out of the economic morass in which we are sinking. Send us such a man, be he God or the devil, and we will receive him.



Every nation is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, with America on the brink of economic implosion, having borrowed one-fourth of all of the money in the world and unable to pay it back. All over the globe central banks are feverishly printing money in an attempt to “paper over” this crisis, but this is not going to work. The entire world economic system is a house of cards in which each bankrupt nation props up the economy of other bankrupt nations using imaginary electronic money that does not actually exist. Charles Ponzi would be proud if he were alive today. But a house of cards cannot stand forever, and when it falls (and it will collapse) the economic foundation of the entire world will fall with it. What I am sensing about all of this is that the world economic situation should never have become as critical as it is now, and it should never have been able to sustain itself for this long. We are well past the logical time when it should have collapsed. What kind of supernatural forces have brought us this far and what kind of supernatural forces will provide us with a leader who will have all of the answers to get us out of this morass?

We have been consuming far more than we replenish or recycle. Fresh water is becoming increasingly scarce as water tables drop, rivers dry up, and pollution contaminates much of what remains. China has put a stranglehold on the rare-earth elements so necessary for the electronic technology we have become so dependent upon. The nations of the world that seem to hate Christianity and the western concept of freedom the most are the same ones that control the oil. And finally, the world’s food supply is rapidly shrinking as it comes under attack from every imaginable source and direction. One does not have to be a prophet to see that something really, really big is going to happen in the world really, really soon.

I am convinced that the entire world is on edge because we have really disobeyed and offended God and, no matter how much we try to justify our actions or how much we deny the very existence of a God, we are way overdue to be punished. In Genesis, Chapter 6, we are told that genetic makeup of humanity was corrupted when “the sons of God” interbred with the daughters of men, creating giants. God was so angry that He destroyed all of mankind, except for the eight occupants of Noah’s ark. Today we are using our technology to combine human, animal, and plant DNA in ways that have the potential to produce creatures even more hideous and grotesque than in Noah’s time. Could God be any less angry with humanity today as He was in the days of Noah?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Why do you think religion is superfluous, and not necessary? Explain please.

I've explained it exhaustively... If you have not understood that, then I am sorry. It is necessary insofar as a society needs it to have a personal connection with God. BUT, as I have continuously said, this personal connection, that unique quality, as even you say, is something different then hope, value, and such things that a healthy, functioning society needs. THEREFORE, it would FOLLOW that a healthy society can function without a personal relationship, and in view of this, it is superfluous to such a society in such an end.

Also, you DO realize that a perfect and healthy world would require people to have known the Bible's teachings on right and wrong, right?

No, this would imply that people without Christianity cannot be right or wrong, and we BOTH don't think that. Or at least that is what you say when I question statements that sound like you think atheists are morally inferior.

I don't believe in macro evolution, you were confirming what I said, which was based on the idea that we evolved. (Which I don't believe)

But there is proof of its existence. And what I said about some of them having died off confirms what exactly? Your argument was that if we evolved in such a way, we'd all die and not be as we are now. I say that some of the branches have died according to evolution and we are the one that was able to adapt. You say this confirms...

I believe we all have a subconscious and innate quality that searches for a higher power and something to worship and follow after. Even if society were to eventually move past religion, that doesn't mean people would stop believing in God.

I do not agree with the first statement. Humans have the subconscious and innate quality to attribute value and meaning to things and also trying to answer questions even if we don't have sufficient knowledge to do so (we work with what we have). Such is the nature of impressions that we come into contact (philosophically and psychologically this is well understood). The second statement is true, though what GwJumpman says has truth in it as well, for as I have mentioned, atheism is rising and is receiving a faster growth than any of the sects of religion that we have now. In fact, if you were to divide all of the religions in our country, and throw atheism in there, atheism dwarfs all of them, and is growing. It's only when you combine the religion and then add the deism does atheism become very small in comparison.

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I can see that.

Here again you are saying that the nature of society is becoming more Godless and making that synonymous with moral corrosion, for that is what that passage is saying and you seem to be implying towards Jumpman.

 

[Jon Farron]

I'm not going to replay to the other things, because here we are back at square one AGAIN. I have already explaned what I believed on those topics and you just gave the same responses as you did before but worded differently :S I'm obviously not changing your mind on the subject, and you're obviously not changing mine. So it's pointless to continue. But I want to ask you something, and I want you to think hard about it.

Why do you not want to believe in God? When did you decide not to? Was there a certain event/reason/person that caused you to make this decision?

I'm just curious and would like to understand where you're coming from based on the above questions.

Here again you are saying that the nature of society is becoming more Godless and making that synonymous with moral corrosion, for that is what that passage is saying and you seem to be implying towards Jumpman.

I'm not implying it towards a specific person, I'm talking about the world as a whole. You yourself even just said that atheism is growing, therefore, society is becoming more and more godless. Also, the Church today is practically godless, because they have caved in to the culture and are providing things that please the people instead of things that please God.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'm not going to replay to the other things, because here we are back at square one AGAIN. I have already explaned what I believed on those topics and you just gave the same responses as you did before but worded differently :S I'm obviously not changing your mind on the subject, and you're obviously not changing mine. So it's pointless to continue. But I want to ask you something, and I want you to think hard about it.

I keep going back to square one again because the end to which we are discussing is being lost, I'm only interested in "square one". I don't know why there has to be this "immovable" status to this.

Why do you not want to believe in God? When did you decide not to? Was there a certain event/reason/person that caused you to make this decision? I'm just curious and would like to understand where you're coming from based on the above questions.

Well answering this would be wildly off topic. These reasons/circumstances don't really have anything to do with my views on this topic, because I am trying to use logic alone with my view as to this topic.

I'm not implying it towards a specific person, I'm talking about the world as a whole. You yourself even just said that atheism is growing, therefore, society is becoming more and more godless. Also, the Church today is practically godless, because they have caved in to the culture and are providing things that please the people instead of things that please God.

It doesn't matter if it isn't towards a specific person. That's not my point. A correlation between godlessness and moral corrosion is being made, plain and simple.

 

[Jon Farron]

Somewhat off topic, but I would like to make a correction referring back to eating the animals. After Noah's ark and the flood, God gave Noah permission to eat the animals.

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things"

So basically everyone still ate plants, until after the flood when God gave Noah and his family permission to eat meat.

 

[Ussi]

When you speak growth rate, there are different catagories:

-number of conversions
-absolute number gain (favors bigger populations)
-% growth rate (favors smaller populations)

Now when it comes to atheism being the fastest growing i'm going to have to ask if that is strict atheism or you are mixing it up with non-religious? Cause i'm seeing that a large group just not affiliating to a religion but that is including agnostics (33%), theists (33%) and atheists (10%) together. 1 group believes in God, 1 says you can't prove/disprove God. So its not like the big group is all atheism saying God doesn't exist, but the big group is not affiliating with a religion.

To answer White mage's question to me, yes I am a Muslim. I'm trying to be as unbias as I can with my arguments but Islam is pretty much my go to for examples.

 

[Jon Farron]

Lol Ussi, it's kind of impossible to not be biased in this thread.


This is sorta off topicish, but it just goes to further prove that what the Bible says is true. Also pretty interesting.

Evidence of Noah's Ark and the pre-flood atmosphere
http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/index.php?main=2&sub=1&page=27(<-ran out of words to link with lol)

Scientist's believe there was a water canopy covering the Earth's atmosphere before the great flood, which filtered out harmful solar radiation and allowed humans to live up to 1,000 years. When the great flood happened, the water canopy drained and came down as rain and was never reformed. This would explain the age limit that God had set after the flood had ended, which was around 120 years. According to Wikipedia, the oldest person on record lived to 122.

The canopy that was once there to filter out radiation was gone, so humans lived much shorter lives.

 

[Ussi]

I can make links about the Qur'an and evidence that supports it being true, but people aren't really going to take it to heart usually.

One point of evidence isn't enough either to prove something is true completely. To make a claim something is true on a grand scale, every single detail must be correct.

 

[GwJ]

Ussi, atheism doesn't assert god doesn't exist. As far as I'm concerned, "Agnostics" fall under atheism just as much as self-proclaimed atheists do as well. We've been over this countless times over the years on this forum. If you don't understand that, I recommend going back through some threads. I'm sure that "Why I'm not an Atheist" thread has got to have a post explaining it.

 

[Jon Farron]

I can make links about the Qur'an and evidence that supports it being true, but people aren't really going to take it to heart usually.

One point of evidence isn't enough either to prove something is true completely. To make a claim something is true on a grand scale, every single detail must be correct.

Good point. :l


Well it's still interesting I guess.

 

[GwJ]

Scientist's believe there was a water canopy covering the Earth's atmosphere before the great flood, which filtered out harmful solar radiation and allowed humans to live up to 1,000 years. When the great flood happened, the water canopy drained and came down as rain and was never reformed. This would explain the age limit that God had set after the flood had ended, which was around 120 years. According to Wikipedia, the oldest person on record lived to 122.

The canopy that was once there to filter out radiation was gone, so humans lived much shorter lives.

Oh god, I hope you're really not serious about humans living up to 1,000 and a water canopy. You're going to need to provide some SERIOUS evidence for something like that if you're going to assert that.

 

[Ussi]

Ussi, atheism doesn't assert god doesn't exist. As far as I'm concerned, "Agnostics" fall under atheism just as much as self-proclaimed atheists do as well. We've been over this countless times over the years on this forum. If you don't understand that, I recommend going back through some threads. I'm sure that "Why I'm not an Atheist" thread has got to have a post explaining it.

From what i can gather, atheism has 2 meanings. Boardly, it just means the rejection of other religions, and narrowly it means rejection of God. So when you said atheism you meant the board meaning, and when I said atheism i meant the narrow meaning.

Cause this is just arguin the meaning of the word... I said the rejection of religion is growing big. I even asked if it was refering to strict atheism (really don't know how else i could have made my point clear) as i wanted to know he was refering to rejection of God or rejection of religion. Rejection of religion is different than rejection of God because rejection of religion could mean they just haven't found the right religion and they think God doesn't love them cause he won't show them the path to him. There are people like this, i can give 2 examples of highly knowledgeable ex-Christians (college level study into divinity) that rejected their own religion and became agonostic then converted to Islam after going through a period of not believing in any religion. (The examples are them telling their story)

 

[Jon Farron]

Oh god, I hope you're really not serious about humans living up to 1,000 and a water canopy. You're going to need to provide some SERIOUS evidence for something like that if you're going to assert that.

Did you even read the sources I posted? :l

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Humans cannot live up to 1,000 years. I've taken a look at the reasoning behind why that person thinks they could, and they attributed it to oxygen, disease, and habitat, among other things that have literally nothing to do with the process of aging.

This thread is beginning to die to me...

And anyone who believes in Noah's Ark should be ashamed. ESPECIALLY if you believe that animals were much larger, though size is the least of the problems the concept has.

 

[Ussi]

As a man of faith i believe in Noah's ark, even believe humans used to live 1000+ years, however i'm not going to use something that requires faith as an arguing point.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Lol Ussi, it's kind of impossible to not be biased in this thread.


This is sorta off topicish, but it just goes to further prove that what the Bible says is true. Also pretty interesting.

Evidence of Noah's Ark and the pre-flood atmosphere
http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/index.php?main=2&sub=1&page=27(<-ran out of words to link with lol)

Scientist's believe there was a water canopy covering the Earth's atmosphere before the great flood, which filtered out harmful solar radiation and allowed humans to live up to 1,000 years. When the great flood happened, the water canopy drained and came down as rain and was never reformed. This would explain the age limit that God had set after the flood had ended, which was around 120 years. According to Wikipedia, the oldest person on record lived to 122.

The canopy that was once there to filter out radiation was gone, so humans lived much shorter lives.

I love how one of your sources says "UPDATE: NOAH'S ARK SUSPECTED TO BE A HOAX"

And how another one of your sources mentions animals that didn't make it past the flood. Which, you know, blatantly contradicts the bible.

 

[Jon Farron]

And anyone who believes in Noah's Ark should be ashamed.

I've lost my respect for you now =/


Thank you for telling me to be ashamed of my beliefs. >.>


It's like I'm talking to a brick wall, you refuse to see why religion can have a special place for someone. If it's not for you, fine. But that doesn't mean people should take it away from everyone else. Regardless of how YOU see it as unnecessary.

 

[GwJ]

White Mage, I did look at some of the sources. They looked like conspiracy theorist sites. I don't have time for that man.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This thread has become so dumb. Ussi is the only one who seems to understand that his personal believes can't always be the basis for an argument ... when that's the case just say that you have nothing to argue and accept it. Kudos to you, sir.

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall, you refuse to see why religion can have a special place for someone. If it's not for you, fine. But that doesn't mean people should take it away from everyone else. Regardless of how YOU see it as unnecessary.

No, religion does need to vanish from the world. Millions of people have been murdered in the name of religion or faith. This can no longer be tolerated.

 

[Ussi]

No, religion does need to vanish from the world. Millions of people have been murdered in the name of religion or faith. This can no longer be tolerated.

Millions of people have also been murdered over land and money. In fact in almost every "religious" struggle there has been some other factor like land.

Like take a Palestinian and an Israeli and they would get along if they were in America and they would be at war if they were in Palestine because there is a land dispute there. The land is the cause of the fighting, not the Religion. I can even say the same thing about the crusades. Religion was used as a stimulant to get peopled riled up and motivated to fight for LAND.