Value of Religion

[Holder of the Heel]

If I were to do that, things would eventually get down to "just because" or "it is what it is". Lol

Sometimes you just can't explain something.

Then yes, I don't respect you. Insofar as you feel that way, you don't feel that you can discuss things. Explanations are the foundation of all productive, intelligent conversations. In a word, a debate.

Before you guys go any further, take this to a blog or another thread. We've had too many threads derail into these kinds of discussions. Alphicans posed a serious question deserving of serious and dedicated discussion.

True, true.

I'll actually defend alphicans sentiment about laziness and religion, it most certainly is for a lot of people. The demonstration of this is manifested in the cognitive dissonance in the believers. People genuinely believe bat**** crazy stuff, and yet they themselves are not bat**** crazy. And saying you are a Christian can be an almost meaningless statement in our country, so much so that saying you are a Christian doesn't really paint much of a picture of you, in fact it gives just a small blotch, an inkling at best.

And when people are asked incessantly "Why?" they say things like White Mage says, "Just because" or "it is what it is". Much like when a parent can't provide an argument for their demands to their child to the point where they just give up and assert dominance by saying, "Because I said so!" It's hard to answer questions, sometimes impossible, but people have the instinct innately in them to desire answers for questions, that is how the brain works. That makes it so we try to fill in the gaps even if we have insufficient knowledge to do so.

It's largely also why most people aren't philosophic (to a notable degree, that is), because most people hate asking questions or thinking too much. It isn't fun and it isn't easy for them. At least, from my experience, this is what I've seen. Laziness is an accurate word, and not offensive really, it isn't surprising, it's a human feature, an aspect of the brain.

 

[Jon Farron]

Oh so now I'm lazy?

*facepalm*


If I was lazy and didn't wanna think, I wouldn't be here... >.>



Let me give an example of something you can't explain. Love.

It is what it is.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

"Insofar as you feel that way, you don't feel that you can discuss things." o_o;

And uh love is actually a very real, understandable thing. God is not. If you don't understand love, or if you are one of those people that treat it as a mysterious thing, then you and love are going to have a rough time in life.

And saying it is what it is means nothing. Everything is what it is. That doesn't there is no explanation for these things.

 

[Jon Farron]

And uh love is actually a very real, understandable thing. God is not.

Love is understandable because you know what it is. God isn't understandable for you, because you don't know who He is.



(Also we're getting waaaaay off topic here, if you wanna continue VM me)

 

[theeboredone]

You aren't exactly respectful yourself either when you talk about these girls that "drink up every night and then go home to have sex" but postulate that the way they live their lives should be "improved", which they choose to not do.

I love how you cut portions of my post without reading the rest. In that example, and what I was talking about, my main argument was that a person will claim to be a "Christian", yet she has no desire to better herself by following the teachings she is meant to learn. If she chooses to live her life of partying and sex, which is against the Bible, which in turn is also against the mantra of "What would Jesus do?", then should one consider her to be a Christian?

But on the flip side, when she is asked to marry someone outside her religion, she will pause and hesitate, because that cross around her neck finally means something.

People see religion more as an identity rather than faith. People also choose to do what is best for them, and not for their faith. In this case, this woman is so engrossed with her identity about being a Christian, when it finally matters to being "Christian", she reflects. Otherwise, it's no big deal.

 

[Alphicans]

Before you guys go any further, take this to a blog or another thread. We've had too many threads derail into these kinds of discussions. Alphicans posed a serious question deserving of serious and dedicated discussion.

Thank you.

I see a lot of good discussion, and yes lots of it pertains to the initial question, but lots of it doesn't. Maybe you all don't know what's truly at stake here. If we cannot find a truly unique thing about religion that cannot be realized through other means, then maybe this gives a very good reason to eliminate it completely from society. However, if there is a unique quality, then those who oppose religion need to understand its value and not hate on it.

Jam Stunna did a good job at trying to find this unique quality, however I share the same sentiments of holder in that this quality is a misconception. Jam Stunna replied but decided to remove his post. I would like to hear more, and I want this idea thought through fully.

 

[theeboredone]

I just don't see the point of removing religion, just because it contains the possibility of negative qualities that individuals can take advantage of. I mean, it sets a strange precedent that we are trying to make our society a well oiled machine for a lack of better term. If that's the case, then there are so many things that can be removed, and we should be fine to live without.

 

[Alphicans]

But do any of those things have the potential power of "if you do x so many times you will live the rest of eternity (after your earthly existence) in suffering"? I single out religion because it has so much power behind it... It is literally the most influential body of power ever to exist on Earth.

Or is that claim even up for grabs? Would someone challenge me on this?

 

[theeboredone]

You're right that currently, religion has the most power on Earth in terms of influence. But if we are to eliminate religion, something else will rise and take its place as I've said before. In fact, just look at how religion has worked throughout history. Whether it's the rise and fall of the Greek Gods, Egyptian Gods, the rise and "fall" of the Abrahamic religions...while all religions, something has come to take its place.

So if we set this precedent...that this powerful influence should be removed, and we should rely on other means of developing humans...what is there to say that we should not remove anything else that may pose an influential threat? It's a lot of hypothetical and if, but then again, this whole debate question is based on that.

 

[Jon Farron]

But if we are to eliminate religion, something else will rise and take its place as I've said before. In fact, just look at how religion has worked throughout history. Whether it's the rise and fall of the Greek Gods, Egyptian Gods, the rise and "fall" of the Abrahamic religions...while all religions, something has come to take its place.

So if we set this precedent...that this powerful influence should be removed, and we should rely on other means of developing humans...what is there to say that we should not remove anything else that may pose an influential threat? It's a lot of hypothetical and if, but then again, this whole debate question is based on that.

That is very true, how when one religion "falls" another comes to take it's place.

I would say Christianity has been the world's religion for the past who knows how many centuries, but now a new "religion" is starting to take over called The New Age. It's basically all about the Universe and consists of mostly eastern practices (meditation, astral projection, astrology, psychic energy etc). It's all about the Universe and the Cosmos. I'm sure on TV you've heard people say "I'll let the Universe decide" or "I'll put that thought out in the Universe and see what happens". Without realising it, people are actually making The Universe their God. It's getting more popular everyday. It has the belief that all is one and all are connected through the Universe and the Cosmos.

So if all other religions fell, The New Age would take place, and it is basically a religion that isn't thought of as a religion.

Spoiler

And, of course, this was foretold in the Bible as a sign of the New World Order where the world would have a one world religion

 

[_Keno_]

That is very true, how when one religion "falls" another comes to take it's place.

Eh, though it has always happened in the past, I certainly don't see it as a rule of law. I especially think that the modern world is becoming a counter-example quite quickly.

I would say Christianity has been the world's religion for the past who knows how many centuries.

Just europe and the Americas.

but now a new "religion" is starting to take over called The New Age. It's basically all about the Universe and consists of mostly eastern practices (meditation, astral projection, astrology, psychic energy etc). It's all about the Universe and the Cosmos. I'm sure on TV you've heard people say "I'll let the Universe decide" or "I'll put that thought out in the Universe and see what happens". Without realising it, people are actually making The Universe their God. It's getting more popular everyday. It has the belief that all is one and all are connected through the Universe and the Cosmos.

Pretty sure that is dying out faster than it's growing, if not, show me some proof. Also, the phrase "let the universe decide" is just a reference to the fact that probabilty and chance control the super-majority of our lives.

Astrology and the such are pretty old superstitions similar to a lot of eastern traditions (for a local example, spilling the salt shaker, going under ladders, or crossing a black cat. I know im a saggitarius and what that means, but I dont actually believe it. For all of these, we know they aren't true but some people choose to go along with them anyways).

So if all other religions fell, The New Age would take place, and it is basically a religion that isn't thought of as a religion.

Spoiler

And, of course, this was foretold in the Bible as a sign of the New World Order where the world would have a one world religion

What.......... You're quite obviously forcing a conclusion just so that it agrees with your religion...If you want to be taken seriously, dont say stuff like this. It's just ridiculous.


As for the main discuss... It's not like we're trying to remove religion by executing people, forcing them to believe our views, or politically outlawing religion. If people are convinced by our arguments then great, if not, so be it. We cant really do anything about that. Religious people are all pretty much doing the exact opposite. Is it not hypocritical of a religious person so say that atheism is trying to destroy religion when all religions mean to convert the world?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... saying a new religion will be born or be raised to replace Christianity is a bold assumption, in fact, I'm going to go ahead and say emphatically, "No!" For one thing, atheism isn't defending against just Christianity, it is defending against all forms of religion, so if it successfully gets Christianity out, its going to be from it, not some sort of anti-Christian-Pro-anything-else belief. Not only that, but the only one that has any prevalence here is Christianity, it is the only one we also have a history of. To not only have a different religion come up, but one that is completely out of the left field, sounds absurd to me. Even if we are to entertain the idea, a "comsos" belief would be a lot more preferable than traditional deity worship.

I'm also a bit weary of the notion that if Christianity goes away, something will somehow need to fill the "power void". Our government is already secular. And the individual people would already have replaced that void, it's not like we are magically yanking the religion out of everyone's lives right now, it's going to develop. It IS developing. People are able to learn how to rely purely on themselves, on reality, it's happening now.

 

[Ussi]

Christianity will end when Jesus returns to the earth /veryserious


When you are going to ask the value of religion, I will say each religion has its own value meaning you'd have determine the value of each religion independantly. You can NOT lump all religions together and say thats the value of religion especially when religions clash with each other in some detailed ideals.

So you'd essentially be determining is one religion right or are they all wrong?

 

[Jon Farron]

Christianity will end when Jesus returns to the earth /veryserious

Actually... no it won't.

When the rapture happens, (Which is what I'm assuming you meant by Jesus returning to Earth) those who truly believed in God will be taken up to heaven for 7 years while those left behind will be left to go through 7 years of tribulation and judgement, in an attempt to get them to repent and turn to God. Of course, people will and Christianity will still be alive.

Lol


To answer your question, you can't answer it... :l

Every religion thinks that their way is the only way. That doesn't mean they're all wrong though.

I'm also a bit weary of the notion that if Christianity goes away, something will somehow need to fill the "power void". Our government is already secular. And the individual people would already have replaced that void, it's not like we are magically yanking the religion out of everyone's lives right now, it's going to develop. It IS developing. People are able to learn how to rely purely on themselves, on reality, it's happening now.

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."


People are replacing that void, with all of the above.

What.......... You're quite obviously forcing a conclusion just so that it agrees with your religion...If you want to be taken seriously, dont say stuff like this. It's just ridiculous.

I'm not forcing a conclusion. The conclusion randomly came to me one day after someone had made a comment on it.

I was like, wait a second... o.o

Pretty sure that is dying out faster than it's growing, if not, show me some proof.

Just listen to this song from the Disney Channel series Shake it Up. Tell me this is not New Age. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6FVJKC4q8o
(Lyric correction when it says "we are only starters" it's actually "we are only stardust")

 

[Alphicans]

Christianity will end when Jesus returns to the earth /veryserious


When you are going to ask the value of religion, I will say each religion has its own value meaning you'd have determine the value of each religion independantly. You can NOT lump all religions together and say thats the value of religion especially when religions clash with each other in some detailed ideals.

So you'd essentially be determining is one religion right or are they all wrong?

You're not looking at the big picture. Every religion does the same thing, but all have different "values." Try to think about religion at its most basic level, and then maybe you'll understand what I mean.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

So you're accusing me and of all atheists that, in the place of the "void" of religion, there is greed, lust, pride, and so on with the rest?

 

[Jon Farron]

No.

I'm saying you have put your trust in success, knowledge, science and people rather than God.

All of those eventually lead to what was said in the verse, because man has a sinful nature.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

White Mage, you are full of surprises. Everytime you try to refute something I have said, and I question it, you always back up and agree with me but act like somehow you are still right and I am wrong. XD

 

[_Keno_]

Actually... no it won't.

When the rapture happens, (Which is what I'm assuming you meant by Jesus returning to Earth) those who truly believed in God will be taken up to heaven for 7 years while those left behind will be left to go through 7 years of tribulation and judgement, in an attempt to get them to repent and turn to God. Of course, people will and Christianity will still be alive.

Lol


To answer your question, you can't answer it... :l

Every religion thinks that their way is the only way. That doesn't mean they're all wrong though.




II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."


People are replacing that void, with all of the above.



I'm not forcing a conclusion. The conclusion randomly came to me one day after someone had made a comment on it.

I was like, wait a second... o.o



Just listen to this song from the Disney Channel series Shake it Up. Tell me this is not New Age. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6FVJKC4q8o
(Lyric correction when it says "we are only starters" it's actually "we are only stardust")

You do know almost all matter is LITERALLY formed from the death of stars. It's not some reference to the mystic. Not that this kills your point, just your example.

This is like citing dragonforce or pochahontas music as evidence for you new age theory. References to spirtual and the supernatural are made throughout the arts, especially in music. I dont see how that supports the idea of a new age religion overtaking the world in any way.

Overall there is just no explanation for your conclusion. Even if supposed "new age" ideas were becoming popular (which i heavily disagree with, especially looking back to the 70's), by no means does that mean it will become a religion, especially a dominant one.

Especially since very few people actually believe in any of the "new age" stuff, as i described in my previous post.

 

[Jon Farron]

White Mage, you are full of surprises. Everytime you try to refute something I have said, and I question it, you always back up and agree with me but act like somehow you are still right and I am wrong. XD

Wait, what? ._. I didn't agree with you. (I think? Now I'm confused)


@Cheap Peach
I don't mean The New Age is taking over, I meant that it is rising, and would probably become widely accepted within a few years. Possibly to the point where people would rather do that than believe In a God, where The Universe is basically still their god, lol. Even Holder said a cosmos belief would be more preferable.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Jam Stunna did a good job at trying to find this unique quality, however I share the same sentiments of holder in that this quality is a misconception. Jam Stunna replied but decided to remove his post. I would like to hear more, and I want this idea thought through fully.

Well, it seems that this thread is less a discussion of the qualities of religion and more "Religion is useless for these reasons." Both you and Holder dismiss my argument as a misconception, so what else is there to say?

 

[Alphicans]

Explain how "there is nothing left but to turn to religion" isn't a misconception.

 

[Ussi]

There is that feel.. When you need to turn to something or someone for hope.

What misconception is there when people who have nothing turn to God? If anything shouldn't they hate God for putting them through this? But no, instead they beg for his help and this is what "opens their eyes" as its that feel when you turn sincerely to a supreme being and then your life turns around from bad to good.

Its one of those gotta go through this to know what it is. This feeling isn't limited to an extreme situation, just magnified greatly.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Explain how "there is nothing left but to turn to religion" isn't a misconception.

Is there any argument I can actually make to convince you otherwise? It seems pretty unlikely, so I don't see the point in trying.

 

[Alphicans]

Perhaps you mistake me for someone else, but I am not set in my ways of thinking.

 

[Jam Stunna]

There seems to be very little give and take in this thread from both sides, but hell, why not.

Holder points out that there are other avenues to fill the void of hopelessness, but doesn't specify those other avenues. I can speculate as to what they might be, but I'd rather have actual examples to respond to.

 

[Jon Farron]

Is there any argument I can actually make to convince you otherwise? It seems pretty unlikely, so I don't see the point in trying.

Now you know how I feel. :S

 

[Ussi]

I'm just saying what i can. If people don't take it, that's on them. I said my piece and that's all i have to do

 

[Holder of the Heel]

We are talking about the value of religion, and that has turned into the discussion of whether the world NEEDS it. I don't think you are quite grasping what we are talking about. .____.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol don't assume so much. Answer his question, as it is a fair question to ask, and then see where we can go from there.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'm not professing that we go to those who depend on religion and yank it out of their lives. Obviously if they were to develop a lifestyle without it, it would purely be through a contentment with reality, or an interest in secular philosophy if they must study something (which very few people feel the need to do even when non-religious). We are talking about how the world IS developing into a stage where we depend on it less, and so the NECESSITY of it is diminishing. The fact that there are things that can be in place of religion is a bit obvious, considering there are many among us right this moment that don't have religion in their lives.

I wasn't assuming anything, that is in fact what we were talking about. My pointing out what Stunna was saying is a misconception of the person is simply revealing the obvious fact that there are those who don't need to depend on it to cope with reality. And... I've already said this. All of this.

I'm confused as to all of the confusion. This topic has made absolute sense (except for the White Mage parts) for me.

I reject the notion that anyone here is being stubborn, we aren't even necessarily discussing the qualities of religion, we are talking about its value. When we speak of religion not being in the world, it isn't how it is useless, but NOT NECESSARY. And it is progressively becoming LESS NECESSARY. No one has said its useless. I'm getting the idea you aren't grasping the topic at hand or what is being said. Why I have to express other avenues to hope, contentment, happiness, virtue, whatever, without religion, is absolutely beyond me. I would hope it is self-evident that there are such "avenues".

 

[Jon Farron]

I'm not professing that we go to those who depend on religion and yank it out of their lives. Obviously if they were to develop a lifestyle without it, it would purely be through a contentment with reality, or an interest in secular philosophy if they must study something (which very few people feel the need to do even when non-religious). We are talking about how the world IS developing into a stage where we depend on it less, and so the NECESSITY of it is diminishing. The fact that there are things that can be in place of religion is a bit obvious, considering there are many among us right this moment that don't have religion in their lives.

I wasn't assuming anything, that is in fact what we were talking about. My pointing out what Stunna was saying is a misconception of the person is simply revealing the obvious fact that there are those who don't need to depend on it to cope with reality. And... I've already said this. All of this.

I'm confused as to all of the confusion. This topic has made absolute sense (except for the White Mage parts) for me.

I reject the notion that anyone here is being stubborn, we aren't even necessarily discussing the qualities of religion, we are talking about its value. When we speak of religion not being in the world, it isn't how it is useless, but NOT NECESSARY. And it is progressively becoming LESS NECESSARY. No one has said its useless. I'm getting the idea you aren't grasping the topic at hand or what is being said. Why I have to express other avenues to hope, contentment, happiness, virtue, whatever, without religion, is absolutely beyond me. I would hope it is self-evident that there are such "avenues".

Holder, you don't seem to get the fact that religion isn't just about filling that void inside of us. (First of all WHY IS THAT VOID THERE TO BEGIN WITH? Try answering that) It's about having a personal relationship with your Creator, and if you truly sincerely look for Him and believe in Him you will find that God is very real.

Sometimes it requires a humbling experience, the lowest point of your life, to realize that.


Could you imagine a world without religion? Nearly all of our morals have come from a religion, whether you want to believe it or not. If the Bible was never written, and if we had evolved, we would be no better than animals. Fighting, killing, eating each other with no sense of right and wrong. Just look at the African countries who have never heard of God, look at how savage those people are! Could you imagine living around people like that? So yes, it IS necessary.

 

[Alphicans]

Dude.... You should feel bad.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Why I have to express ther avenues to hope, contentment, happiness, virtue, whatever, without religion, is absolutely beyond me. I would hope it is self-evident that there are such "avenues".

Yup, I'm all set.

 

[Ussi]

Africans aren't savages nor have they not heard of (the concept of) God. Its just a different culture that hasn't had the development that other countries have had.

Morals don't come from religion, we are born with morals. Religion reinforces it.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Holder, you don't seem to get the fact that religion isn't just about filling that void inside of us. (First of all WHY IS THAT VOID THERE TO BEGIN WITH? Try answering that)

This "void" exists in that if we were to take AWAY the belief of those who do have it, then obviously, a void would remain, just as if all of my beliefs were stripped of me. Religion is a method of establishing hope, morals, understanding of the world, etc. The void of these questions have nothing to do with religion, but instead have to do with... well... the QUESTIONS.

It's about having a personal relationship with your Creator, and if you truly sincerely look for Him and believe in Him you will find that God is very real.

Please don't say things like that to me, or anyone else for that matter. Don't insult their intelligence.

Sometimes it requires a humbling experience, the lowest point of your life, to realize that.

Now you are making it sound like a coping device against hopelessness like Stunna mentioned.

Could you imagine a world without religion? Nearly all of our morals have come from a religion, whether you want to believe it or not. If the Bible was never written, and if we had evolved, we would be no better than animals. Fighting, killing, eating each other with no sense of right and wrong. Just look at the African countries who have never heard of God, look at how savage those people are! Could you imagine living around people like that? So yes, it IS necessary.

I'll never be able to accept you if you somehow have this huge misconception and lowly view of humanity. Also, you have just told me you did not mean to say that atheists have their morals corroded. Now, you seem to be flip-flopping on me here. Again.

Yup, I'm all set.

I certainly hope you aren't being sarcastic with that. Yeesh, I don't think religion was the best topic for a thread...

 

[Alphicans]

Actually that point on forming a personal relationship with God is an interesting one, and perhaps is one of the unique qualities of religion (or of religions that believe in a god). However that assumes that God wants people to follow that religion, so I am not sure how to take this.

 

[Jon Farron]

Holder, I never once meant insulted anyone's intelligence. I was trying to explain the point that Alphicans finally understood. Which is that religion's unique quality isn't about moral values, it's about having a personal relationship with God. I'm sorry I didn't explain that well.


I do not think of humanity as lowly at all. I was going by the belief that we evolved. If we had evolved, we wouldn't be any better than animals.

Humanity has a unique quality in that we are able to think for ourselves, and aren't driven only by instinct. We have the ability to feel. This is what separates us from animals.

Of course an animal can become sad, but not in the same way a human becomes sad.


Ok, religion may initially be used as a way to cope, but once a person realizes that God is there, by seeing Him help them through their hard times, they will never turn back. (This is called a trial, and Christians are given many trials to test their faith, of course God knows your heart, but it's more of a way for you to grow closer to Him.)


I also never said atheists are morally corrupt. You keep putting words in my mouth. -.-


Also, Christianity isn't about following the religion. It's about following God. The Bible tells us a lot about the characteristics of God, but you will never be able to fully understand Him until you develop that personal relationship. Even then, you will never know how he works, because he works in some pretty crazy ways, lol. But, you will have a much better understanding, and will learn to trust Him, even if something seems crazy at the time.


One other thing, I'm not trying to be accepted by anyone. I'm done playing that game. It only leads to me trying to change myself as a person.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I also never said atheists are morally corrupt. You keep putting words in my mouth. -.-

Could you imagine a world without religion? Nearly all of our morals have come from a religion, whether you want to believe it or not. If the Bible was never written, and if we had evolved, we would be no better than animals. Fighting, killing, eating each other with no sense of right and wrong. Just look at the African countries who have never heard of God, look at how savage those people are! Could you imagine living around people like that? So yes, it IS necessary.

II Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."


People are replacing that void, with all of the above.

I'm saying you have put your trust in success, knowledge, science and people rather than God.

All of those eventually lead to what was said in the verse, because man has a sinful nature.

You're kidding me right now man..


Anyways, as for the connection with God, what exactly does that do? It establishes feeling of love, hope, contentment, etc. While it is a unique method of doing so, the accomplishments are NOT unique. It has value in that it is a largely chosen avenue, I have not debated for one moment the lack of positive influence of religion, my concern is the concept of its superfluous nature. It's not a necessity. That's the only dog I have in this race.

As for the value of God, this is separate from the value of any traditional deity worship. If religion was literally just a personal relationship with some idea of a omnipresent loving being, then practically almost all of the issues and faults that could be associated with religion now would vanish in an instant. The simple belief of a theistic being isn't harmful in and of itself (while incredibly wrong in science and logic, but nevertheless harmless), and it is also superfluous, and not ultimately needed (a healthy society can be imagined without anyone like this). Such a belief would literally be deism just with the belief that this God can give you hope and comfort. You do not fit this description however, and most don't.

Also, I'm not asking you to change yourself. I'm only concerned with a healthy, productive, interesting discussion. Whether this is that or not doesn't matter, I appreciate the expressions and ideas either way, they teach me things notwithstanding.

 

[Jon Farron]

Yeah I don't see "atheists are morally corrupt" anywhere.

Anyways, as for the connection with God, what exactly does that do? It establishes feeling of love, hope, contentment, etc. While it is a unique method of doing so, the accomplishments are NOT unique.

That is only part of the fact. The personal relationship with God, causes you to recognize that you are not the one in control of your life, and at any minute when you get off track he can pull the plug and cause a disaster to happen in order to humble you and steer you back in the right direction.

Hebrews 12:4-11
"In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."