Using a secondary.

[Kal]

What opinions do players have about using a secondary? Primarily, I mean to ask

1) Should players pick up a secondary? If so, when (i.e., at what skill level), and what should go into their choice of a secondary?
2) Should players pick up more than one? If so, then the same questions as above.
3) What about pocket counterpicks? Should players bother learning a character for exactly one matchup?

My opinion is that most players should not even bother with a secondary. However, if a player is at a reasonable skill level, they should pick a secondary who follows these guidelines. However, a player should not bother with more than one secondary, and should forget about pocket counterpicks entirely.

 

[mesa23]

i have like 20 secondaries.

i'd be bored with melee if i had to stick to just 1 character

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Is this referring to tournament specifically? Either way I think it's important to play more than one character. It depends on what you are comfortable with, though. If it's impossible for you to continue swapping between characters for reasons such as differences in tech skill (timings and such), interferences in playstyle (a Peach main CC Dsmashing by instinct with a Fox secondary), and lack of character experience.

Look at all the top players; most of them play with a secondary. PP has used his Falcon and Marth a couple of times, Mango of course uses a plethora of characters, Armada has a YL, Kirby and Fox that we've seen, M2K plays 3 characters, Axe has a Falco secondary, Kage has a Falcon secondary (albeit rare), and many more.

But I digress...To answer the original questions...

1) Yes, and doesn't matter when. Preferably sooner than later.
2) Depends on the characters you currently main. Probably at mid-level.
3) If you main a low tier character then maybe, if anything else then you are purely play to win and don't play the game for fun.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Be good with your main before you start dipping into a serious secondary.

Serious secondaries should be chosen based on needs and preferences. Specific matchups one dislikes, certain styles or stages one is bad against, etc. This can be subjective, though, and is prone to "secondary is my main" situations. A common example is the low tier main with the top tier secondary. Sheik is gay if you play a crappy character (say, Mario), so people invest in a Fox. But then eventually they realize Fox is better than Mario in every conceivable matchup. Why play Mario, then? Obviously this isn't always the case, but a lot of secondaries become mains just because it's easier to win with the higher tiered character.

In terms of quantity of secondaries, I generally feel that picking more than one serious secondary creates trouble. Warming up two different characters for a tournament is difficult enough. We have a limited amount of time to warm up and get our characters ready. We also have a limited amount of time to practice and refine our characters in between tournaments. Splitting time so much also makes it difficult to focus on your main. I'm sure we've all heard the classic lines: "I don't know who to pick", or "I should have gone <character>", from people who play 3+ characters.

It's possible to have a pocket character for a single matchup. Just make sure you're doing it against a character like Falcon, Ice Climbers, Ganon, Jigglypuff, etc. Basically any character where the players have reputedly lower level secondaries (or simply refuse to go other characters in tournament). Otherwise you will get stuck with annoying things like double blind picks and nonsense. You should probably flesh out a pocket counterpick for more than just the single matchup (and therefore practice its other matchups) as part of its development, though.

I think any secondary should know how to fight Peach, Fox, Falco, and Sheik just because of how common they are. In addition to whatever reason(s) you're actually playing them for.



edit:

I'm not discouraging the use of friendlies characters like Falcon and whatever. I'm just saying you shouldn't look into seriously developing a second tournament character unless your main is fleshed out and looks like a main.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Fox is the only thing I can play at a level that I'd want to play at a tournament. I think putting my time in developing another character is a waste of time, while I could put it all into Fox.

Then again, when maining Fox, you don't need a secondary character, all your matchups are covered equally well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I tend to think that playing most of the top tiers removes a real "need" for a secondary. Except maybe Marth. Mostly because Sheik is hard, and Marth can be troublesome to play in teams.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

I just play secondaries for fun. I main Sheik, so I really don't need a secondary technically.

 

[Teczer0]

Secondaries actually helped me a lot further my gameplay. I don't necessarily use all of my characters in tourney but having a few has taught me a lot about Melee in general.

With an assumption that you're at a competent level now considering a secondary my answer to all three though is not in particular. Depending on your character you may have to work harder at a certain match up but picking up a secondary just because you are frustrated with a certain match up is not worth the time.... usually.

I'm speaking of course in general, exceptions are always there like Armada learning YL specifically for HBox not even Puff lmao.

I think his case is a bit different from ours but w/e

 

[Kason Birdman]

the only reason I have a secondary is because falcon is a boss. cause im not always in the mood to play super gay.

 

[CloneHat]

Everyone should play Fox in order to get used to the tech skill. Whether you stick with him or not is up to you.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

^ I agree with this. Every player should be able to whip out a Fox and do semi-well.

 

[Maxwell Too Swell]

I main Zelda and I am perfectly comfortable in every match up except for the Sheik match up. I play Fox and Falco in friendlies when I'm not kicking people with Zelda. I feel like I've got a very solid grip on her and every match up. So I want to use a pocket Fox or Falco exclusively for the Sheik match up since she gives my Zelda so much trouble.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Do you feel more comfortable with Fox or Falco? Use whichever one is easier for you.

Although it makes more sense to use Falco considering that he's more similar to Zelda than Fox is, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[Maxwell Too Swell]

That's what I'm torn between. Fox is better at the match up, but I'm more consistent and comfortable playing Falco. Should I just stick with Falco instead of using Fox?

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Lots of Sheik's have equal trouble playing Falco as with Fox. Stick with him if he's more comfortable, and it makes sense considering, like I said, he's more similar to Zelda than Fox is.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

I play peach and falcon
I think they compliment each other pretty well, despite me not using falcon to cover peaches bad mu's (it's sorta impossible, they kind of have the same problems with the same high tiers)
i picked them because they're the two characters i enjoy the most and because i want to win with them
i think that is the best mentality for character choices, "who do you enjoy and do you want to win with them"

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Best combo IMO Sheik/Marth by far.

Marth/Falco is really good, too.

 

[DerfMidWest]

hmm...
well, I think having a secondary is a good thing, so long as you don't have too many. I believe that having one or two secondaries forces you to play a little differently and can improve yourself as a player.
as for the whole pocket fox/falco thing, or just a pocket character, thats a bad idea. I don't think you should choose a character just for a certain matchup, especially a character like fox or falco, who everyone knows how to play against. Secondaries are fine, but if you pick up a secondary, I think you should actually be playing them seriously and practicing them a lot, not just using them whenever or for a certain matchup or something stupid like that. Even if your character is bad at a certain matchup, you as a player should be able to over come that with your character, picking up a secondary to get around that won't make you better.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Peach/Fox. I like that combo, personally. At first, I was simply going to learn Fox for tech skill. Then, I just wanted him for Falcon, cause I hate Falcon. Now, I think that I'm just going to play Fox whenever I'm not feeling Peach. Double maining (lol) is not completely out of the equation for me.

These kinds of things are very player dependent, but it is extremely important to have a handle on your main character before you pick up an official secondary, as far as tourneys are concerned.

 

[Wolfy!]

I play Falcon and Falco, though I rarely bring out Falco. I really only bring out my Falco when I'm feeling off with Falcon that particular day. I really try to overcome bad matchups with Falcon rather than rely on Falco to cover his bad MUs. Otherwise, I like to switch between those two characters every now and then to keep things fresh and switch up my playstyle. It definitely helps that I just naturally enjoy playing with those characters. All in all, I think it's great to play more than one character, but only if you're really comfortable with your definite main. It's really just up to the characters that you like to play, how you play them, and how certain matchups affect you personally.

 

[Zodiac]

1) Should players pick up a secondary? If so, when (i.e., at what skill level), and what should go into their choice of a secondary?
If they want to, or if their character has absolute crap match up i.e. link vs falco (Me)

2) Should players pick up more than one? If so, then the same questions as above.
Not right away, I've picked up several characters over the years but I've also taken the time
to develop them

3) What about pocket counterpicks? Should players bother learning a character for exactly one matchup?
that never hurts,


overall, honestly after a certain point you know how to play every high tier character and can pick them up a lot easier than your first character. and Imo to mid level players and up picking up a secondary is kind of a silly thought since by then they already know each match soley from the experience they have picked up being on the tournament scene.

 

[Kal]

Zodiac, there's a difference between having a working knowledge of a character and actually knowing his ins and outs. Surely you wouldn't agree that simply playing the game for a few years would make you as good with any character as you are your main.

 

[Tekk]

I play both jigglypuff and falcon, but I never actually used falcon in tournament because of a lack of confidence.

I think secondaries can be useful not only to counter one's character (like using fox v puff), but also to counter one's playstyle.
So it becomes more of a personal choice than a real tactical choice: you can just feel more confident vs campy people with falcon than with fox.
To this point, pocket characters become irrelevant, and I think they are effective only if you have a real understanding of how the character works. For instance, a lot of people pick fox or YL v me in tournament when they don't beat me with their main. Their problem is that they play these characters "by the book": their playstyle is based on theory, not on personal experience.
Therefore, they are often very predictable (foxes always upsmashing at the same moment for example), and thus aren't that efficient.

People should cp pocket chars because they have mastered one matchup with that char, not because they heard it was a counter to x (and it's often the case).

 

[Max?]

Play and use who you like, thats all that matters

 

[Cactuar]

Play and use who you like, thats all that matters

qft


It's all about love, bay-bee.

 

[Tekk]

Loving a top tier is so cool

 

[Zodiac]

Surely you wouldn't agree that simply playing the game for a few years would make you as good with any character as you are your main.

Mango

10secondaries

 

[Kal]

Mango couldn't possibly be an exception, seeing as he's arguably (if not definitely) the best player in the world.

 

[rhan]

Everyone has a Sheik.

 

[-ACE-]

I've always mained Ganon and seconded luigi because I like playing them.

I've been having fun with marth lately though and I think he might replace luigi soon.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Everyone has a Sheik.

I contest this. My Shiek is pretty bad.

 

[Wolfy!]

^ Same here. My Shiek is awful.

 

[Kal]

I find that most players who don't main Sheik still "have a Sheik." But their Sheiks are always exceptionally bad.

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't have a main, I just use whoever I want

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

So that would mean that they don't "have a Sheik" then. "Having" a character would imply proficiency with that character, no?

Using that logic you could say that I have a Bowser. It probably sucks, though. With it being Bowser and with me never playing him.

 

[soju]

It pretty much means everyone can use sheik and usually use her a lot better then using any other character. ;D

Same applies to marth <3 fsmashing nuublets all day

 

[Kal]

So that would mean that they don't "have a Sheik" then. "Having" a character would imply proficiency with that character, no?

Using that logic you could say that I have a Bowser. It probably sucks, though. With it being Bowser and with me never playing him.

I suppose I didn't preface my post with "I am beginning a joke." Sorry, I'll be clearer next time.

And the point was more to emphasize that most people will claim they have a Sheik, and in turn actually be quite bad with her.

 

[Wolfy!]

I guess I should restate my previous post as "I don't use Sheik very often (if at all), but when I do, I suck with her".

 

[Varist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bc0WjTT0Ps

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

I suppose I didn't preface my post with "I am beginning a joke." Sorry, I'll be clearer next time.

And the point was more to emphasize that most people will claim they have a Sheik, and in turn actually be quite bad with her.

I actually thought you were being serious. People do say they "have a Sheik" and they do usually end up sucking.

Or I'm just stupid.