Untapped Potential

[Bl@ckChris]

posting because kk is always right.

i would say something about roy > mewtwo > kirby > pichu > bowser, but already said it. i think ness is between roy and mewtwo but idk. can't quite decide where yoshi fits in all of that, but it's probably over roy...maybe...idk.

 

[Bones0]

I just have to point out that the discussion should not revolve around underrated or overrated low tiers. It is supposed to be about untapped potential. That is to say, it should be about the characters that have the most room to improve. This isn't targeting anyone in particular. I just liked our discussion about where certain characters can evolve their games, and I feel like it's strayed into tier list thread 2.0 where we are talking about what is currently accepted as the metagame for low tiers. Talking about potential advancements and new tactics that haven't been fleshed out (parrying and whatnot) is just way more interesting to me. ^_^

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think Zelda's shield is better than Kirby's, KK. Unless you consider Zelda a tier above those guys (with the Links and such). Then never mind.

 

[Scidadle]

I feel like yoshi was untapped until Vectorman played him.

 

[Divinokage]

I feel like yoshi was untapped until Vectorman played him.

The level can be much higher... he's still untapped.. maybe Leffen is stronger, I do want to find out.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think Ganon still has untapped potential.

Get to it, Kage.

 

[strawhats]

I think Ganon still has untapped potential.

Get to it, Kage.

pretty much this and the leffen part...except he'll probably never use him long evough in a U.S. NTSC tournament to get a true gauge of how ood the character can really be. But when it comes to skill level and being able to truly tap into a character's potential, i'd have to assume Leffen at this point.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah. Leffen I hate your guts but please use Yoshi at a US tournament, because I want to see that character stop being slept on. I mean, you'll be able to character john if you don't do well! It'll fit right in with your usual post-tournament johning fest!

 

[Divinokage]

I think Ganon still has untapped potential.

Get to it, Kage.

Oh ya, I know I can do even better!

 

[Jockmaster]

The character Ganon really has no more real potential in my opinion.

Come to think of it, I think he has the most peaked metagame out of every character, strictly in terms of "how else could we use this guy and make him more successful". It just really seems like the character has hit a peak.

Like, yeah maybe KAGE could get better, but Ganon is not going to get any better. There's only so many things you can do with the guy. His sheer strength will prop him up in the tier list, but I can't imagine his meta developing in to any new "styles".

 

[DerfMidWest]

I agree with that for the most part.

 

[Tarv]

While I agree that a few characters may have reached their potential, in so much that there aren't going to be any new relevant "styles" or "techniques" or whatever but when you main someone I feel like you need to have the mentality of "there's more to your character." I mean as far as the technical aspect of things, captain falcon (or whoever) could be done and done but that doesn't mean that the way YOU play Captain Falcon can't evolve or improve.


Even if it's absolutely 100% true that the character's metagame has been capped, it seems like a player would benefit if they pushed themselves to try to find something newer and effective. Even if you don't out and out discover something, that mental practice of pushing yourself beyond a set of limits could potentially push your gameplay to a new level if nothing else. I know this sounds strange coming from a completely new player but really it's an ideology that stems from anything that you want to improve on: , "there's no such thing as your best." Because if you believe you've capped off on your potential (or a character's) you're selling yourself short. Limits are stupid, belief in them is only hurting yourself.


Anyways , just my thoughts. Great discussions so far btw

 

[Bones0]

I pity people who think any character has capped out or is done evolving. People have been saying the same **** for years, yet any character in 2012 is light years ahead of its 2010 version.

 

[Scidadle]

The level can be much higher... he's still untapped.. maybe Leffen is stronger, I do want to find out.

I agree. Yoshi can be played better. But I just think Vectorman showed the tools required to play him at a high tournament level. Now it's up to a top player to take him to the max.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i'm playing with dr peepee now, give me a year and i'll find some extra DI tricks and combos soon enough. the character seems obvious enough, but i think i can find some nuances to some hitboxes eventually that will be...interesting.

i also think that things are definitely changing, as bones stated, in the upper parts of the metagame. things do not look the same as when i started playing at all, and i'm about as new as they come lol.

 

[Scidadle]

Nair is ganon's most underused move.

 

[Divinokage]

Nair is ganon's most underused move.

Not for me.. =P

The character Ganon really has no more real potential in my opinion.

Come to think of it, I think he has the most peaked metagame out of every character, strictly in terms of "how else could we use this guy and make him more successful". It just really seems like the character has hit a peak.

Like, yeah maybe KAGE could get better, but Ganon is not going to get any better. There's only so many things you can do with the guy. His sheer strength will prop him up in the tier list, but I can't imagine his meta developing in to any new "styles".

Get some creativity, perhaps you'll find more ways how to use Ganon. I mean I always try to create new setups and traps in order to mess up DI. I'm sure there's more to him a little bit at least.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yoshi can be WAY better...

If you guys were impressed with my Yoshi back then... then gosh, I can't wait to show you my yoshi now...

if only you all knew how much i've been playing the Dino.....I've made DRASTIC.. improvements since, G2... I'm actually kinda hyped to show you all...

Again, I am still alive/around etc... everyone makes it like I died, or don't play Yoshi or something... if only you all knew.. ^^

<3 i'll show in due time ^^

EDIT: Also thanks for the praise everyone, it's very humbling.. ^^ I don't wanna let anyone down ^^

 

[odinNJ]

Yoshi >>>> Roy > other crap chars like ness

 

[iffy525]

Yoshi can be WAY better...

If you guys were impressed with my Yoshi back then... then gosh, I can't wait to show you my yoshi now...

if only you all knew how much i've been playing the Dino.....I've made DRASTIC.. improvements since, G2... I'm actually kinda hyped to show you all...

Again, I am still alive/around etc... everyone makes it like I died, or don't play Yoshi or something... if only you all knew.. ^^

<3 i'll show in due time ^^

EDIT: Also thanks for the praise everyone, it's very humbling.. ^^ I don't wanna let anyone down ^^

I've watched those vids you put up... very impressive.

 

[Bones0]

Again, I am still alive/around etc... everyone makes it like I died, or don't play Yoshi or something...

Well you did retire for what, an entire week? And then you went Roy at Apex, which honestly I don't think anyone wanted to see instead of Yoshi, but you had a personal goal and took a shot at it so I can respect that.

But Roy sucks. Stick with your top tier imo.

Spoiler

Your top tier being Yoshi, obv. I'm going by the AZ scale.

 

[Jockmaster]

I guess what I'm trying to say is like...using more wavelands and ledge cancels isn't advancing a particular character's metagame (which is IMO the biggest difference in modern Ganons and older ones, along with better spacing). The entire smash metagame as a WHOLE is evolving at that point, not the character. So yes, a 2010 Ganon will look different than a 2012 Ganon, but is it actually anything more than technical tricks that EVERY character has started to use more?

When I think of a character developing, I think of the character actually obtaining a unique edge apart from the general metagame. It can be something as simple as learning to edgeguard certain ways, or abuse certain aerials' hitboxes....anything of that sort that applies to an individual character. In this regard, I feel that Ganon has one of the most developed individual metagames out there (tied with Bowser).

 

[V3ctorMan]

Well you did retire for what, an entire week? And then you went Roy at Apex, which honestly I don't think anyone wanted to see instead of Yoshi, but you had a personal goal and took a shot at it so I can respect that.

But Roy sucks. Stick with your top tier imo.

Spoiler

Your top tier being Yoshi, obv. I'm going by the AZ scale.

HAHA, I understand... yeah I did, and yeah I also went roy at apex, and went for the goal... Though I failed the goal, I STILL think Roy has "something" not as much "something" as Yoshi but it's there...

I still play Yoshi..

 

[Divinokage]

I guess what I'm trying to say is like...using more wavelands and ledge cancels isn't advancing a particular character's metagame (which is IMO the biggest difference in modern Ganons and older ones, along with better spacing). The entire smash metagame as a WHOLE is evolving at that point, not the character. So yes, a 2010 Ganon will look different than a 2012 Ganon, but is it actually anything more than technical tricks that EVERY character has started to use more?

When I think of a character developing, I think of the character actually obtaining a unique edge apart from the general metagame. It can be something as simple as learning to edgeguard certain ways, or abuse certain aerials' hitboxes....anything of that sort that applies to an individual character. In this regard, I feel that Ganon has one of the most developed individual metagames out there (tied with Bowser).

I can give you an example about Ganon that isn't talked about much.. do you know you can shield pressure opponents with Nair on platforms with Ganon? =P

The direction of Ganon is not about wavelanding and all that stuff, it's about using your moves in useful ways where you can trap opponents, when I said about creativity I meant using your hitboxes where you can always shield stab, where you can do DI traps.. etc. Go for more trades too at times, you know?

 

[Bones0]

I guess what I'm trying to say is like...using more wavelands and ledge cancels isn't advancing a particular character's metagame (which is IMO the biggest difference in modern Ganons and older ones, along with better spacing). The entire smash metagame as a WHOLE is evolving at that point, not the character. So yes, a 2010 Ganon will look different than a 2012 Ganon, but is it actually anything more than technical tricks that EVERY character has started to use more?

When I think of a character developing, I think of the character actually obtaining a unique edge apart from the general metagame. It can be something as simple as learning to edgeguard certain ways, or abuse certain aerials' hitboxes....anything of that sort that applies to an individual character. In this regard, I feel that Ganon has one of the most developed individual metagames out there (tied with Bowser).

Not all characters benefit from different advances in the general game though. Just because people have begun utilizing edge cancelling more doesn't mean it doesn't affect an individual character's potential. Falco would be pretty awful without SHL, but Fox would barely be affected at all. So when people started incorporating SHLs, Falco's untapped potential was unlocked in a huge way, whereas Fox simply got a nifty tool to enable him to play a little more defensively.