As a Ness secondary, I completely agree with this. It can even function as an edgeguard because it has a lot of priority.
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Untapped Potential
- Thread starter Tarv
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
In a meaningless friendly I hit PK Fire > dair offstage on a recovering Sheik because they DJ faired (I guess they figured I was gonna rambo them offstage). It was swag. I want to try to hit that on a DK because on paper it looks like it might work vs his recovery if he's not recovering high.
Swaggy edgeguards aside, I mainly use it during DD if I see them commit to something dumb and then work from there. It's also decent for tech chasing non-FFers IMO because you can sometimes hit it, get to them before they SDI to escape, and DJC uair when they're in the air and start a nice combo. It's usually a thing to do when dair, grab, and dash attack won't work (as a result of percent, positioning, or other matters).
If they don't SDI out you can often grab or do freestyle BS and get massive damage. But a lot of people now shake the stick reflexively instead of hold down so this happens less often than it used to.
For specific MUs... I haven't tested this vs a good Ganon but I think it's potentially very useful vs Ganon and other characters that can't defend purely off reaction. They'll commit eventually. Then you poke them and see what you can get. I guess they could counter this by approaching (rather than playing defense), but I tend to think that works for him because his DJCs and ground movement are kind of geared for footsie & defense just 'cuz he lacks a real approach and his poke moves attack fairly specific areas (aerials, f-smash [arguably], dash attack, jab, d-tilt). Mofo vs Hax is a good demonstration of this, if you don't believe me. Watch how he does the evade > punish DJC bairs. It's really good. But it's also a really defensive motion (beneath the baiting).
Not terribly excited about its risk-reward, how it fares vs shield > WD (oh, the pain), or how SDI destroys it but then again this is Ness we're talking about. Some characters don't have simple, effective, fool-proof nice things.
Swaggy edgeguards aside, I mainly use it during DD if I see them commit to something dumb and then work from there. It's also decent for tech chasing non-FFers IMO because you can sometimes hit it, get to them before they SDI to escape, and DJC uair when they're in the air and start a nice combo. It's usually a thing to do when dair, grab, and dash attack won't work (as a result of percent, positioning, or other matters).
If they don't SDI out you can often grab or do freestyle BS and get massive damage. But a lot of people now shake the stick reflexively instead of hold down so this happens less often than it used to.
For specific MUs... I haven't tested this vs a good Ganon but I think it's potentially very useful vs Ganon and other characters that can't defend purely off reaction. They'll commit eventually. Then you poke them and see what you can get. I guess they could counter this by approaching (rather than playing defense), but I tend to think that works for him because his DJCs and ground movement are kind of geared for footsie & defense just 'cuz he lacks a real approach and his poke moves attack fairly specific areas (aerials, f-smash [arguably], dash attack, jab, d-tilt). Mofo vs Hax is a good demonstration of this, if you don't believe me. Watch how he does the evade > punish DJC bairs. It's really good. But it's also a really defensive motion (beneath the baiting).
Not terribly excited about its risk-reward, how it fares vs shield > WD (oh, the pain), or how SDI destroys it but then again this is Ness we're talking about. Some characters don't have simple, effective, fool-proof nice things.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Uair OoS with pichu is a lot easier to land than it should be.
If a space animal is pressuring my shield and they aerial early, uair beats it out (even when spaced) because the move is weird.
Lightshield pushes pichu enough for upB OoS to be difficult to punish.
Pichu's grab has more range than Pika's ^^
Pichu's shield is also bigger.
If a space animal is pressuring my shield and they aerial early, uair beats it out (even when spaced) because the move is weird.
Lightshield pushes pichu enough for upB OoS to be difficult to punish.
Pichu's grab has more range than Pika's ^^
Pichu's shield is also bigger.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Pichu's u-tilt and most tail attacks are also further disjointed than Pikachu's relative to their closest hurtbox.
Less range, but more disjoint.
Also, less landing lag on every single landing.
Pichu for better-than Kirby tier.
Less range, but more disjoint.
Also, less landing lag on every single landing.
Pichu for better-than Kirby tier.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Pichu *****. Sorta ^^
but yea my argument isn't that pichu is good... Just that he's less bad.
but yea my argument isn't that pichu is good... Just that he's less bad.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Less bad compared to what? Because I dont see him doing any better even in 10 years.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Going to bother you on AIM maybe tonight about some of the stuff you posted in there, KK. I have more questions. :3
I will say that I think Puff could benefit from a lot more edgecancelling, to give her platform/movement game another dimension and making it harder to track her.
Also, Mario's up angled fsmash seems kind of alright against float/fair camping Peaches.
I will say that I think Puff could benefit from a lot more edgecancelling, to give her platform/movement game another dimension and making it harder to track her.
Also, Mario's up angled fsmash seems kind of alright against float/fair camping Peaches.
robyextreme
Smash Ace
i feel bad using pichu in tournament against people who are free
it just feels like you are making them out like a joke level player lol, although I wouldn't care if there were more players but most people give up before even trying.
it just feels like you are making them out like a joke level player lol, although I wouldn't care if there were more players but most people give up before even trying.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I use utilt to imitate that Sheik thing. Fade away aerial or just WD back utilt beats just about everything when spaced properly. DAT HITBOX. Probably a little on the risky side because of the lag though.
I have heard multiple people say PK Fire is good, so I guess I'll have to try using it more. I only really use it during edgeguards (and immediately regret it because Ness can just HRB 99% of recoveries lol) or for stylish DJCLC PK Fires off of plats (OMG, I just realized I should do a DJCLC PK Fire off the ledge into dropzone dair... FFFUUUUUUU-).
What is M2K's old turnip stuff? No @ Peach w/ Falco dair. Just no.
As far as Sheik needing a combo throw, I hope you're joking. No one should be surprised by her chain grab, let alone a Sheik player of your caliber.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
He means that, right now, PM Sheik doesn't have a combo throw, cause they made her dthrow kinda PAL-ish.
But Sheik has bthrow DI traps, I think, to compensate somewhat. But yeah, I GUESS it sucks not to have an OP downthrow anymore. :|
But Sheik has bthrow DI traps, I think, to compensate somewhat. But yeah, I GUESS it sucks not to have an OP downthrow anymore. :|
Avalancer
Smash Journeyman
Definitely Yoshi. Several other characters like Link/YL and Luigi are also very underrated.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
M2K's old turnip stuff is basically just that you can hit Puff with various forms of turnip throw OOS if she touches your shield with bair. Peach holding the turnip encourages Puff to go deeper with her stuff to counter this, which means she's not bair camping you. There's more to it but that's the gist of it.
Regarding that CG clip? Lol. That is all.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Less bad than kirby and bowser and ness and proly mewtwo.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I doubt that, need proof yo!
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
I am proof.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yes, yes, maybe, no.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Mewtwo sux sans taj.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Pichu sux sans
...I don't have a way to finish that sentence.
...I don't have a way to finish that sentence.
I still would advocate for Bowser being the absolute worst character in the game and I take pride in that <3.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I would agree with you and probably buy you a drink.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
If you beat DJN/Taj/Hbox/Hack with Pichu against their low tiers, I will reconsider.. but until then.. I cant believe it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Beating low tiers with your low tier proves absolutely nothing about viability since maybe 1/8th of tournament players use low tiers as serious characters.
Beat a good Fox or Marth or whatever.
Beat a good Fox or Marth or whatever.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
ness's DJC isn't that impressive..it's just a hover like marths that happens to allow more motion control. I mean it's good, but it's really only good if your opponent has neither speed or range..it won't work on marth..but meh it might help ness do better against the other low tiers. But then mofo is already using it effectively in my opinion.
Also, I'm really interested in playing with turnip out of shield. I was still having trouble getting much utility out of turnips vs jiggs in general (damn nair, or even bair can block them) but maybe using them from shielded attacks will be more effective.
Also, I'm really interested in playing with turnip out of shield. I was still having trouble getting much utility out of turnips vs jiggs in general (damn nair, or even bair can block them) but maybe using them from shielded attacks will be more effective.
Tarv
Smash Journeyman
God, I am so good at ignoring the hell out of my own topic.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well it can prove something matchup wise at least.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Because being good vs Bowser is so important and will clearly decide the fate of Pichu vs Bowser on the tier list.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Apparently it is for people that want to prove that their bottom tier aren't so bottom tier.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I understand that low tier standards are different than other character standards but this is kind of absurd to me.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You play top tiers, you wouldn't understand! 
Scidadle
Smash Champion
Roy definitely has the most potential out of the low/bottom tiers (IMO). Other untapped characters are Mewtwo, Luigi (kinda), Link and YL.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
The value of matchup spreads should not be skewed by which matchups are advantageous and which aren't. That comes about naturally by bad characters having worse matchups overall anyway.
Pichu vs Fox and Bowser vs Fox are both terrible matchups so they have no baring on which is better than the other overall.
The matchup itself in this case does matter, because they both do so poorly against most of the rest of the cast.
Pichu vs Fox and Bowser vs Fox are both terrible matchups so they have no baring on which is better than the other overall.
The matchup itself in this case does matter, because they both do so poorly against most of the rest of the cast.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I can't address this properly because of how stupid it is.
Damn, so blunt.
At the next tournament I want to play you in infinity friendlies, and I want you to tell me what I did wrong after each one.
Please and thank you.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Pichu bowser isnt terrible. Its like 60-40 boozer at worst.
You just need to play around upB OoS and his dumb ledge gimmicks. Pichu has a crap CC, but he can still CC ledge attacks.
Fair wont hit pichu easily because of his dumb tiny self, so you can poke under it with bair and uair.
If you uair bowser, he has trouble getting down. Its pretty funny.
Bowser cant edgeguard you, but he's a free kill offstage (via thunder wall->stuff and jolts)
He cant punish PAWDs, making camping him really easy.
Oh and grabs **** bowser.
The only problem pichu has in the mu is that he dies fast as **** and bowser has range.
Pichu beats kirby.
Pichu loses to ness.
Pichu loses to mewtwo (solely because of CC and Range issues).
Pichu loses to Pichu (his worst MU, imo)
You just need to play around upB OoS and his dumb ledge gimmicks. Pichu has a crap CC, but he can still CC ledge attacks.
Fair wont hit pichu easily because of his dumb tiny self, so you can poke under it with bair and uair.
If you uair bowser, he has trouble getting down. Its pretty funny.
Bowser cant edgeguard you, but he's a free kill offstage (via thunder wall->stuff and jolts)
He cant punish PAWDs, making camping him really easy.
Oh and grabs **** bowser.
The only problem pichu has in the mu is that he dies fast as **** and bowser has range.
Pichu beats kirby.
Pichu loses to ness.
Pichu loses to mewtwo (solely because of CC and Range issues).
Pichu loses to Pichu (his worst MU, imo)
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I forgot that Smash Bros gets to be special and not like every other competitive game when comparing matchups.
It doesn't matter if a character loses to every other character as long as they win against one top tier in the backwards metagame that is Smash land.
Beat!
Smash Master
Having decent matchups vs a high tier or two but losing badly vs several low tiers is definitely better than vice versa. With a bigger community things might've been different, but as it is now, the latter group (low tiers, that is) is hardly even represented at tournaments, so those matchups are pretty much irrelevant anyway.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
I think luigi is relatively underrated...
But i have regional bias (vudujin is a top player around these parts)
But i have regional bias (vudujin is a top player around these parts)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I asked Pkm and he said Yoshi is underrated, I might agree too.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
Yoshi is interesting. He has a bunch of weird mechanics.