Untapped Potential

[Tarv]

In your opinion which character has the most untapped potential? Whether it's a top tier or bottom tier which character do you think is waiting in the wings for the right innovator to push it's playstyle to new heights? This question may very well be obsolete. Melee might be so old and the game so completely understood that all characters have reached their pinnacle. However, I'd like to think that there's still room for experimentation and innovation within the characters. I mean who knows? Maybe one day a new way of playing Kirby will be discovered and before long he'll be mid tier or something like that. In short, which character can be pushed further to advance its quality?

While this isn't my only answer, but one possibility is link/y.link's playstyles changing to emphasize boomerang cancelled play, and being slightly more aggressive than defensive. Honestly, this might not be exactly what pushes them to their highest quality of play, but I do think they have a little bit of untapped potential and this is just one possible example of how it could be so. Besides, I'm sure there's other characters who have a greater level of untapped potential.

Anyways, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions about this and hopefully we can get a legitimate discussion going.

 

[Dan Salvato]

As a Link player, I can confirm that there is much to be discovered and added to his playstyle. I don't see boomerang cancels *emphasized* as a primary element of play but it's certainly a useful technique. Link also has a couple pressure techniques that help put him on the aggressive side. I don't like a defensive Link because the opponent's pressure is usually more than he can handle.

Anyway, I think basically most mid to low tiers are lacking in development compared to the high tiers, and I've only discovered Link as an example of this by maining him. I think Yoshi has potential and more people should explore him.

 

[Tarv]

That's one of the main reasons why I made this topic. It seems like everyone is spending so much time trying to advance fox, falco and the other top tiers that they're ignoring the advancement of other characters.

 

[DerfMidWest]

ICs...
Because they have a lot of ****.
And theres ****ing two of them.

 

[LLDL]

Noone cares about the advancement of a character that they do not use. I like falco not because he is top tier, but because he is a cool looking character, sylish, I've been playing with him since I was twelve. That's the reason I / others have spent so much time invested n him. Honestly, the reason most low tier characters are not anywhere near their potential is because they're mad lame. It doesn't really have anything to do with advancing characters potential...for the greater good of the game.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I like pichu....

 

[EPsilon933]

There's only 8 characters in this game

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think there are about 8-10.

 

[EPsilon933]

I doubt Doctor Mario even half-exists

 

[Sixth-Sense]

I think lower tier characters like yoshi, ness, link/y.link have tons of potential, it's just that some of them like ness and yoshi seem really **** because of the way they have to recover and because up to this point, everybody's use to the way fox, falco and high-tier co. work and play, so having to deal with ness's/yoshi's absolute **** recovery, it annoys alot to the point no one plays them because thier just useless.
I actually like pichu more than pikachu, put every time my percent rises because i used fair, or anything else, it makes me mad i have to use an emo-as-**** character.
Same goes for ness with his stupid ******** recovery and yoshi because you can't jump out of shield (which i've grown really accustom to)

 

[Kimimaru]

Yoshi's recovery is one of the better recoveries in the game...with just a double jump he can go farther than Falco's entire recovery, and he has super armor to help him make it back. If you're basing character usefulness off recoveries then I don't know why you didn't mention Falcon because his recovery is ridiculously predictable.

In any case, I think most low tiers have a lot of untapped potential as well as Luigi.

 

[DerfMidWest]

You honestly shouldn't even be dealing too much self damage with pichu... At least not to the point that it actually matters.

Jolt and UpB are the only moves you should be taking percent from :/
Fair sucks.

Oh, fsmash is pree good too.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Ness is ****ing awful. There is no potential.

Yoshi's recovery is one of the better recoveries in the game...with just a double jump he can go farther than Falco's entire recovery, and he has super armor to help him make it back.

Heavy armour.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

If recovery is all that matters, Mewtwo is the second best character in the game.

Obviously, recovery isn't a super major factor in what makes a character good.

 

[rjgbadger]

Oh, fsmash is pree good too.

you mean the move that's the size of Fox's jab and fairly easy to DI out of?

 

[oukd]

imo yoshi/samus/yl

although yl already won armada a tournament
i mean more as a character overall

samus had a lot going for her for a long time but she's been trailing as of late. needs a revival

yoshi for all the reasons everyone else mentioned already...it's definitely there but i feel like it's a huge hurdle

id say pika/doc
but axe/shroomed are already tapping the **** out of their potential



although for the most part i agree with what chain-ace said

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

All the DJC characters, Fox, and IC's.

 

[DerfMidWest]

you mean the move that's the size of Fox's jab and fairly easy to DI out of?

You can't SDI out in NTSC v.1.0.
But yea, its not safe to just throw out, its a recovery intercepter.
For example, if falco is recoverying from below the stage and I fsmash, he gets sucked into it and either:
A) gets killed because he doesn't DI properly
Or
B) di's correctly and falls down and i gimp him.

You're also able to time it so only the final hit connects, making SDI irrelevant.

The move doesn't have very much range, but with the way it is used, it doesn't matter. Its still disjointed and covers the ledge (since its low as ****)

It can also be used to shield poke, but I don't like using it that way on most characters.

Overall, fsmash is one of pichu's more useful kill moves (as it has the power of the knee)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Ice Climbers and Yoshi.

Again.

Pichu's self damage shouldn't be much of a problem because you should be using nair and uair most of the time anyway.

 

[Theftz22]

I think a lot of the low tier characters just suck and have minimal potential.

However, there isn't enough use of the mid or even upper-mid tier characters. When I go to local tournaments, it's 95% fox, falco, shiek, marth, and a few falcons. It's rare that there is even one ganon, samus, doc, ICs, or even peach and puff. That's not to speak of Pika, Mario, Luigi. This is not to say that these characters are as good as the aforementioned 5 (except in the case of puff and peach), but just to say that the difference in the usage is much proportionally greater than the difference in character ability. This makes it likely they have some amount of untapped potential (given that greater use tends to bring out more of a character's potential).

 

[DerfMidWest]

When I go to local tournaments, it's 95% fox, falco, shiek, marth, and a few falcons. It's rare that there is even one ganon, samus, doc, ICs, or even peach and puff. That's not to speak of Pika, Mario, Luigi.

loool come to the NEOH/PA area.
we got weegees, ICs, liek a million peaches, puffs, docs, samuses (sami?), Pikas, yoshis, and like... my pichu

also, Klink-Link5 is correct, Nair and Uair are basically all you need. along with the occasional grab and situational jolt/upB.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

My bad, i didn't mean to emphasize recovery (although i guess i did) but i just think everybody goes with a character that already has an established and solid metagame (fox really comes to mind) and nobody want's to take big risks when your playing in a tournament. And the high-tier characters also have that certain automatic fun factor that alot of them have (like C. Falcon) while lower tier needs alot of time and i'd say patience to really motivate you to use them seriously. Oh and I also think the tier list is really holding back these characters, not to mention any high-level/pro player telling everybody a certain character sucks ***.

But i still stand with yoshi's recovery being crap, his super/heavy armor isn't enough to really withstand stronger attacks, plus with DJC, you can't safely make it back without losing that second jump.

Oh and yeah, your all right about pichu, i exaggerated with the whole emo thing. Still bugs me a little bit though.

 

[Tarv]

I think Chain-Ace brought up a fairly valid point. Why should you care about a character you don't play? For me personally, I enjoy playing all the characters at least to some degree and I'm interested (at least from a theoretical stand point) in how gameplay is developing as a whole not for the 2 or 3 characters I play the most often.

Also, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was bashing people for only playing top-tiers. I mean my top three most played characters are Marth, Fox, and Falco. I play them because they're fun to play and because youtube is filled with videos of these three characters doing amazing combos thus jogging my inspiration and my drive to play them more than other characters. I don't play them because they're some of the best characters in the game, so I definitely understand that sentiment.

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong or counter-productive to wanting to learn new ways to play other characters. Perhaps it'll even help you think about your own character in a different way. Use an innovative line of thinking in one character as inspiration to try new stuff with your main. I don't know really, but I would guess that some people have at least some interest in advancing different characters' metagame not necessarily for the greater good or anything but just because it's interesting to discuss every now and then.

Furthermore, I find myself agreeing with a lot of being said: I think that Ness, Yoshi, Samus, YLink, and Ice climbers all have a lot of untapped potential. I'd also like to add Zelda to that list of characters who could be pushed further.

Finally, pichu is fun to play with but I'll take pika any day over him.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I still can't stand the differences from Pichu Pikachu has. Up-B having to change by, what is it 20 degrees? for the second use*; subtle mechanic differences; less damage and thus shield stun on T.Jolt; uair losing upward knockback half way through; U-smash, bair, nair, and taunts being like 120% less cute.

The only thing I like about Pikachu over Pichu is uh

F-smash range I guess.

*I'm aware of the up-B vertical twice glitch, I'm talking about the other directions of the move here.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Hmmm... I like pika's Uair... and how he has more range on dtilt (as I am the dtilt spamming pichu)
and his non-uair chain combos feel like easy mode.
He also has a few more options than poor pichu

however Pichu has a better Nair, Bair, and uair (for juggling)
oh and Pichu's jolts **** 10x harder.
and PAWD shenanigans.
Oh, and Doraki jumps, of course.

 

[GunPunch]

This was mentioned in the OP, about rethinking the Link's style to include more boomerang cancelling. When I think of "untapped potential" i don't think of individual moves. There are two things to think about IMO: the attributes of a character and how you use those attributes. Attributes include things like moves: hitboxes and percents, weight, and other stuff like that. In this area, I think we can usually (may be wrong) agree on what attribute is better than another one. Like, Fox's Up-B has a greater range than Falco's, so it's "better".

So, I think that untapped potential is more related to the use of attributes. I'll use Samus as an example. In today's metagame, a lot of her game is about stopping agression and also punishing. I won't go in depth, but generally things like Up-B oos can reset to the neutral position and downsmash is often a great punisher. So, in order to improve/unlock more potential from Samus, you'd need to find a different style/way of using her moveset. So, if a Samus player used more bombs, would that be better? Possibly, if someone got good at timing them and used them alot, players would have to take a different approach against that Samus. The question is: does this new approach by Samus and the new approach by the oppenent BENEFIT Samus? or does it benefit the oppenent? Would Link be better with more boomerang cancelling? It depends on how the top oppenents react. Someone would have to try it for a while to figure that out.

 

[Deleted member]

marth and doc are horribly under-explored considering that they're legitimate choices for tournament.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think marth was pretty much totally explored early on.
And Doc is Doc.

 

[Deleted member]

excellent counterarguments.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

In the top tiers, Fox and Falco will only get better (especially fox), Falcon has a TON of potential since people still mess up stuff like the knee and gentleman.
Marth and sheik seem to be pretty much tapped out. Same with Jiggs.

Of the low tiers, I really think Ness has a lot of potential. His aerials are fantastic and ridiculously fast when DJC'd. Too bad his recovery blows.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

In the top tiers, Fox and Falco will only get better (especially fox), Falcon has a TON of potential since people still mess up stuff like the knee and gentleman.
Marth and sheik seem to be pretty much tapped out. Same with Jiggs.

Of the low tiers, I really think Ness has a lot of potential. His aerials are fantastic and ridiculously fast when DJC'd. Too bad his recovery blows.

I actually think falcon is one of the characters that is very slowely reaching his true potential, i mean the reason he's advanced so much is because everybody like's to use him, and he's super fun to use, which motivates to keep playing him your own way. Plus he's always proving himself in nationals.

I'm with embreon in saying marth isn't explored as much, considering he's dominated as a character in the history of competitve melee, i don't know, it just seems like there aren't many marth mains that have a specific style that doesn't seem or at least resemble what M2K does, plus marth being played with a similiar style all these years make it seem like he's not with today's metagame (i exclude M2K, and pewpewu) or better put, he hasn't advanced as much as, say IC's. I guess it's because i watch to much US smashers and not the rest of the world. This goes for fox and falco too, just look at Javi's fox (), i've never been so impressed with that character.

 

[Bones0]

Yoshi
ICs
Pikachu
Link
Ness

 

[KP17]

game and watch

 

[Bones0]

I think G&W has less room for development than almost every other character except maybe Zelda or Pichu. lol

 

[Massive]

Being that almost all middle-low tiers are underrepresented at high level play, I'd say that most of them have some level of untapped potential.

The least untapped potential is probably Bowser (he only has 3 or 4 viable moves), and the most would be probably be deep inside the metagames of Samus or Mario/Doc. That's just my completely anecdotal opinion though.

 

[Blistering Speed]

ness

All the DJC characters

Ness

Of the low tiers, I really think Ness has a lot of potential.

Ness

Someone, please enlighten me as to why this is.

EDIT: I figure the genesis of this is in people seeing thunder jackets, some funky DJC movement and Mofo comboing Hax's **** off on FD. These gimmicks (except for the last one to an extent, he has a somewhat workable combo game, though it frequently depends on the opponent being ignorant of appropriate DI/SDI) don't begin to compensate for the fact he has no safe ground game, no crouch game, no dependable out of shield game and he's prone as **** to baiting. More to the point, his sparkly gay double jump guarantees that he can't efficiently reposition, can't handle most platforms, can't recover to anyone with a trace of edgeguarding algorithm etc.

Once you understand how situational most of Ness' options are, and work to exclude aforementioned situations, he's useless.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm also curious.

Mr. Jackpot: Peach has potential yet, but it's not going to come from her terrible DJC lol. I highly doubt it's coming from M2, either.

As for potential, imo: Fox, Marth, Yoshi, and maybe Falcon could be pushed further.

 

[odinNJ]

I think that all characters have untapped potential, its called being really freakin good. but from a metagame standpoint, low tiers i guess, but nothing groundbreaking and tiershaking, maybe some low tier shuffling (shffling), I do however think that yoshi and ness have vast untapped potential. (roys can just learn to gimp better and techchase for longer XD).

edit: why ness, djc, glitches, but his lack of approaches/good defense/ range holds him back

 

[Massive]

ness

all the djc characters

ness

of the low tiers, i really think ness has a lot of potential.

ness

someone, please enlighten me as to why this is.

People just want to believe in the 13 year old boy whose soul was separated from his body, put in a robot, and sent back to the beginning of history to abort an evil space fetus through the power of prayer.

Also, Ness's nair is actually pretty good in various situations and highly underrated OoS.

 

[Theftz22]

Mofo played ness absurdly well against hax in that match...and he still lost...that's depressing.