Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

[Deleted member]

I don’t know if this opinion would be considered unpopular, but I honestly don’t seem to have any trouble when I fight against Villager players as Samus.

Sure, it can be a bit annoying to hold your missiles for such a long time during the match until you catch the opponent unable to run from a shot... But I honestly don’t really find myself using them against Villagers while still winning a good number of matches with Samus.

And yeah, this also applied to the online matches I had back in Smash 4 and the ones I had on Ultimate during my free online trials.

 

[Deleted member]

There's nothing wrong with taking creative liberaties with a characters moveset as long if it fits the character. Characters dont need every single reference squeezed into them in order to be faithful. Ganondorf is the most polarizing ( and only ) character when it comes to subject.

Alot of people are so hung up that he has a similair moveset to Captain Falcon as if that automatically makes him a carbon copy when that couldnt be further from the truth, the differences between them are night and day. Ganondorf in smash is still powerful, heavy, intimidating, vicous, and uses dark magic. His side special speak the most volumes. Ganondorf grabs his opponents by their throats and chokes them with dark magic and in the air he smashes their heads into the ground.

In some cases being faithul to a character does more harm than good, the smash team takes faithulness over balance or being fun to play as. Take Megaman for example, he looks like hes ripped straight out of his games but he so obnoxious to play and extremely obnoxious to fight. Sonic is another example, he doesnt need to play neutral since hes so obnoxiously fast that he can just run in and out. Sonic is more balanced in the Mario & Sonic games.

But no people think Ganondorf is butchered as if hes dancing like Bayonetta. You know whats butchering a character? Turning a Herculean treasure hunter into a gross farting biker. Replacing great line of platformers for an app tier series of quick time minigames involving ****posts and toilet humor.

 

[Slime Master]

This only tangentially related but I find it really odd that people are so against creative liberties in smash in the first place. I see people arguing against a character being in smash because of no moveset potential or because they'd be to OP or something like that where one you're assuming no creative liberties can be made. And yet, smash has literally always used creative liberties to make a playstyle work right. Captain Falcon is the obvious example, but you also have Ness using other character's PSI powers, ZSS's plasma whip, Shulk's monado arts working completely differently from how the do in his home games, etc. It just seems weird to me that people would be against it when we've always been doing it.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even though I'll gladly take either, I don't think the two most-requested Zelda characters, Skull Kid and Impa, are the best choices for a Zelda newcomer.

And on a similar note, I'll be mad if BotW2 doesn't finally net us a Zelda newcomer. After the massive success of the original, I think Sakurai should go to greater lengths to trying to add someone new. We have plenty of unique options to choose from, and I'm open to weirder unorthodox ideas like enemies.

 

[Xelrog]

This only tangentially related but I find it really odd that people are so against creative liberties in smash in the first place. I see people arguing against a character being in smash because of no moveset potential or because they'd be to OP or something like that where one you're assuming no creative liberties can be made. And yet, smash has literally always used creative liberties to make a playstyle work right. Captain Falcon is the obvious example, but you also have Ness using other character's PSI powers, ZSS's plasma whip, Shulk's monado arts working completely differently from how the do in his home games, etc. It just seems weird to me that people would be against it when we've always been doing it.

There's a difference between Ness borrowing some moves and Eevee's nothing-but-Tackle.

A character can have some gaps filled in but they still need a foundation to start off of, at the very least.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But no people think Ganondorf is butchered as if hes dancing like Bayonetta. You know whats butchering a character? Turning a Herculean treasure hunter into a gross farting biker. Replacing great line of platformers for an app tier series of quick time minigames involving ****posts and toilet humor.

The grossout thing was always his personality in Japan. So it's not inaccurate either.

The moveset takes more from his personality shown in WarioWare(the one he was supposed to have, as the US made him look differently from his original style) and Japan alone.

There's definitely moves from Wario Land that could be added, though. But getting rid of his canon personality is a matter of taste, but it's not like liberties were taken in that case. The moves, definitely. A lot of them. The personality? Not really.

 

[Slime Master]

There's a difference between Ness borrowing some moves and Eevee's nothing-but-Tackle.

A character can have some gaps filled in but they still need a foundation to start off of, at the very least.

I'll grant you that Ness was definitely a weaker example than the others, but Falcon's moveset is pretty much completely out of nowhere. And Eevee can learn more than tackle, not that I think it would be a particularly good choice for smash.

 

[meleebrawler]

The grossout thing was always his personality in Japan. So it's not inaccurate either.

The moveset takes more from his personality shown in WarioWare(the one he was supposed to have, as the US made him look differently from his original style) and Japan alone.

There's definitely moves from Wario Land that could be added, though. But getting rid of his canon personality is a matter of taste, but it's not like liberties were taken in that case. The moves, definitely. A lot of them. The personality? Not really.

Ultimate Wario has the shoulder bash dash attack, ground pound in his down throw, Wild-Swing-Ding for his forward throw, in Wario World his main attack was a two-punch combo and headbutt not unlike his current jab and usmash. Even his movement is reminiscent of how he controls in Wario Land, where his top speed isn't too high but he can turn on a dime in the air. I'd say what we have now is a good mix of Wario Land and Ware elements.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ultimate Wario has the shoulder bash dash attack, ground pound in his down throw, Wild-Swing-Ding for his forward throw, in Wario World his main attack was a two-punch combo and headbutt not unlike his current jab and usmash. Even his movement is reminiscent of how he controls in Wario Land, where his top speed isn't too high but he can turn on a dime in the air. I'd say what we have now is a good mix of Wario Land and Ware elements.

Well, I said could, not has to. I mean, there's other transformative abilities. To be honest, WarioWare and Wario Land Warios have vastly different abilities you could easily split them. I wasn't a huge fan of Wario's moveset back then, but I still loved his personality. He's gruff and rude, just like I remember him as overall. Never an actual good guy in the long run, though will help from time to time.

 

[Deleted member]

The grossout thing was always his personality in Japan. So it's not inaccurate either.

Theres a huge difference between picking your nose every now and then and farting 24/7. Wario being a bit gross was a small trait that only existed in some artwork and loves cracking gross jokes in a q&a, "Wario"ware took that small trait and stretched it out to ridiculous proportions.

The moveset takes more from his personality shown in WarioWare(the one he was supposed to have, as the US made him look differently from his original style) and Japan alone.

There's definitely moves from Wario Land that could be added, though. But getting rid of his canon personality is a matter of taste, but it's not like liberties were taken in that case. The moves, definitely. A lot of them. The personality? Not really.

The misconception that Wario was super gross in the jp version is also a gross exaggeration. The only differences between the west and jp portryals is the commercials. The west portrays Wario in a more sinister light while in the jp version hes portrayed as a goofy anti hero and rival to Mario. And the only examples of Wario being gross is a tiny fart joke in Wario Land 2's manual, a few poop stickers, and 6 questions revolving toilet humor in a q&a of 30 questions. His gross sense of humor was a small trait, all his other traits like his greed, his strenght, and egotistical nature eclipses that small trait.

There are major differences between Wario Land's and Warioware's portrayals of his character. Specifically his greed, strenght, weirdness, and grossness.

In Wario Land his greed pushed him into being a villain, to go on amazing treasure hunts, and participate in exciting sport events. In Warioware its used to make quick time, repetitive microgames involving ****posts and toilet humor.

In Wario Land he has Herculean strenght. He beats down hordes of monsters, piledrives enemies bigger than him, and works out routinely etc. Warioware threw all of that out the window and now he cant even lift up a golden toilet.

In Wario Land he has zany tranformations and hilarious expressions. The weirdness in Warioware are just random ****posts.

In Wario Land his grossness only existed in some artwork where he lazes around after a hard day of work and cracks a few gross jokes, Warioware butchered him into a lazy slob who sleeps all day, eats unhealthy snacks, and farts 24/7.

Wario was a well rounded and fleshed out character with plenty of well written traits in the Wario Land days. Warioware has NONE of the traits nor charm Wario Land had, hes nothing but a gross carciture. All Warioware did was stretch 2 small traits ( being gross and lazy ) to ridiculous proportions to the point where those are his only traits.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler

 

[Xelrog]

I agree that WarioWare drastically cheapened the character in and out of Japan and I don't like how dominant it is in the characterization of Wario in Smash. It was an immediate complaint of mine upon his reveal in Brawl.

There was a Did You Know Gaming video on Wario a little while ago, and they mentioned the director of the Wii Wario Land game's instruction to staff to focus on his "manly" side rather than just the walking fart joke in WarioWare. I'm really glad that he got that about the character.

 

[Idon]

Honestly I just think Waft is an unpleasant move that really shouldn't be in smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Waft I would be fine with being changed out. The rest of his moveset still feels pretty sweet, though. I've found him fun to play beyond that. Maybe a somewhat better Up B would be nice too.

But yeah, I get ya. My argument was never "this is a fine way to represent him" in itself, just that it's overall accurate personality-wise. Doesn't make it a good choice either.

 

[slrigeigdew]

Even IF (And that's a big IF) the window in the new Shantae trailer was a reference to Smash I don't think it changes her chances of being DLC (which for me was already 0%)

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Spoiler: Huge post

 

[Idon]

Here are some great assist trophy ideas that I don't think should be playable for now. In my opinion having any of these as playable characters would be terrible.

Frisk: I've been a fan of undertale, and I love both Frisk and Sans. However, I want her to be an assist for now because she isn't a significantly iconic character.

Sans: Same as frisk, and I think undertale should be left with 2 assist trophies and no playable characters until further notice.

Beck: (Mighty no 9): I've played his game, but he isn't a significantly iconic character, thus he merits to be an assist.

Quote (Cave Story): Same as beck above.

Lilac (Freedom Planet): Same as Beck and Quote above.

Shantae: Shantae is more iconic than Beck, Quote, and Lilac, but she isn't as iconic as Banjo.

Shovel Knight (Already an assist) same reason for Beck above.

Latest Fatal Frame protagonist (Already an assist): same reason for Shantae.

Cutman (mega man): I've loved Cutman since the good old days! But he's too uniconic and minor to be playable, so it would be great for him to replace Zero in Smash 6.

Latest Persona Protagonist: Although Joker/Ren is already playable, he's pretty much just as Iconic as Beck, Quote, Lilac, and Shovel Knight.

JIbanyan: Not enough installments, and is just as Iconic as Shantae.

Goku: He shouldn't be playable but he should still be included in the game at least.

Hatsune Miku: Same reason as Goku above.

Sally Acorn: I don't want her to be playable, but still have her included in the game.

Latest Yu-gi-oh protagonist: I don't want him/her to be playable, but still have him/her to be included in the game. It would be excellent for him/her to replace bomberman in Smash 6.

Pulseman: Too uniconic and obscure.

Klonoa: He's pretty much just as iconic as Shantae.

Piranha Plant: Everyone already knows why.

Now here are some playable character ideas that would maker better additions than those who merit to be assist trophies above.

Bomberman: He's like a 100 times more iconic than Beck, Quote, Joker/Ren, and Fatal Frame Protagonist. And I've aforementioned that he would've been a better addition than Joker/Ren.

Kyo (King of Fighters): same reason as bomberman above.

Bill Rizer: same reason as bomberman above.

Arthur (Ghost and Goblins): He's just as iconic as Banjo so he should be playable.

Akira (Virtura Fighter): Same reason for Arthur above.

Zero (Mega Man): best choice for second Megaman rep.

Reimu: (Touhou): Same reason for Bomberman above.

Ryu Hayabusa: Same reason for Arthur above.

Geno: Everyone already knows.

Waluigi: Everyone already knows.

Shadow: Everyone already knows.

Tails: Needs a 2nd sonic rep.

Knuckles: Would be another great addition.

Eggman:

Sora: Same as Arthur above.

Heroes (Dragon Quest) (Already playable): Same as Bomberman above.

Banjo (Already playable): Same as Bomberman above.

Isaac (golden sun):

Takamaru:

Rayman: Same reason for Arthur above.

What's your feedback about my ideas for each playable character and assist trophy above?

You use the word iconic a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

[osby]

Here are some great assist trophy ideas that I don't think should be playable for now. In my opinion having any of these as playable characters would be terrible.

Frisk: I've been a fan of undertale, and I love both Frisk and Sans. However, I want her to be an assist for now because she isn't a significantly iconic character.

Sans: Same as frisk, and I think undertale should be left with 2 assist trophies and no playable characters until further notice.

Beck: (Mighty no 9): I've played his game, but he isn't a significantly iconic character, thus he merits to be an assist.

Quote (Cave Story): Same as beck above.

Lilac (Freedom Planet): Same as Beck and Quote above.

Shantae: Shantae is more iconic than Beck, Quote, and Lilac, but she isn't as iconic as Banjo.

Shovel Knight (Already an assist) same reason for Beck above.

Latest Fatal Frame protagonist (Already an assist): same reason for Shantae.

Cutman (mega man): I've loved Cutman since the good old days! But he's too uniconic and minor to be playable, so it would be great for him to replace Zero in Smash 6.

Latest Persona Protagonist: Although Joker/Ren is already playable, he's pretty much just as Iconic as Beck, Quote, Lilac, and Shovel Knight.

JIbanyan: Not enough installments, and is just as Iconic as Shantae.

Goku: He shouldn't be playable but he should still be included in the game at least.

Hatsune Miku: Same reason as Goku above.

Sally Acorn: I don't want her to be playable, but still have her included in the game.

Latest Yu-gi-oh protagonist: I don't want him/her to be playable, but still have him/her to be included in the game. It would be excellent for him/her to replace bomberman in Smash 6.

Pulseman: Too uniconic and obscure.

Klonoa: He's pretty much just as iconic as Shantae.

Piranha Plant: Everyone already knows why.

Now here are some playable character ideas that would maker better additions than those who merit to be assist trophies above.

Bomberman: He's like a 100 times more iconic than Beck, Quote, Joker/Ren, and Fatal Frame Protagonist. And I've aforementioned that he would've been a better addition than Joker/Ren.

Kyo (King of Fighters): same reason as bomberman above.

Bill Rizer: same reason as bomberman above.

Arthur (Ghost and Goblins): He's just as iconic as Banjo so he should be playable.

Akira (Virtura Fighter): Same reason for Arthur above.

Zero (Mega Man): best choice for second Megaman rep.

Reimu: (Touhou): Same reason for Bomberman above.

Ryu Hayabusa: Same reason for Arthur above.

Geno: Everyone already knows.

Waluigi: Everyone already knows.

Shadow: Everyone already knows.

Tails: Needs a 2nd sonic rep.

Knuckles: Would be another great addition.

Eggman:

Sora: Same as Arthur above.

Heroes (Dragon Quest) (Already playable): Same as Bomberman above.

Banjo (Already playable): Same as Bomberman above.

Isaac (golden sun):

Takamaru:

Rayman: Same reason for Arthur above.

What's your feedback about my ideas for each playable character and assist trophy above?

People should be more grateful that you have zero control over Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please spoiler giant messages.

Also, don't take potshots at other users. Those kind of messages are not useful. Criticize their points if you respond(if you're not agreeing or trying to hold a discussion of their ideas), but attacking their person doesn't do anything other than break the rules of this forum. We expect you to respect all users, regardless of what they say. If you cannot say anything while still being respectful, it wasn't worth the response then. It's very easy to talk about their points instead of their person too.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Please spoiler giant messages.

Also, don't take potshots at other users. Those kind of messages are not useful. Criticize their points if you respond(if you're not agreeing or trying to hold a discussion of their ideas), but attacking their person doesn't do anything other than break the rules of this forum. We expect you to respect all users, regardless of what they say. If you cannot say anything while still being respectful, it wasn't worth the response then. It's very easy to talk about their points instead of their person too.

Thanks!

 

[Megadoomer]

Spoiler: Huge post

How "iconic" a character is isn't something that can be objectively measured. You can't go "well, this character has an iconicness rating of 375, while this other character is only a 253." Likewise, it doesn't make much sense to say "Arthur from Ghosts 'n' Goblins is exactly as iconic as Banjo and Kazooie, so he should be in the game!" when they appeal to wildly different age groups, at the very least. (plus, Arthur is owned by Capcom, meaning that he has a ton of competition - Monster Hunter, Phoenix Wright, Dante, Jill Valentine, Leon Kennedy, Amaterasu, Zero, Chun-Li, etc.)

Also, several of those characters (Goku, Yu-Gi-Oh protagonists, etc.) aren't video game characters, meaning that they stand no chance whatsoever according to what little criteria we know about why a character can't make it into the game.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Goku: He shouldn't be playable but he should still be included in the game at least.

Hatsune Miku: Same reason as Goku above.

Sally Acorn: I don't want her to be playable, but still have her included in the game.

Latest Yu-gi-oh protagonist: I don't want him/her to be playable, but still have him/her to be included in the game. It would be excellent for him/her to replace bomberman in Smash 6.

This website has been over this before, this is never going to happen.

I don't think you understand what "iconic" means. It is not a quantifiable scalar that has an exact measurement. There are no equations or algorithms to determine how iconic a character is. How iconic a character is is relative and has no determined value. Unless you surveyed every person on the planet and asked if they recognized and how they felt about each character, there is zero way to accurately measure how iconic someone is. Only general assumptions can be made, like "Piranha Plant is more iconic than Corrin," or "Pikachu is more iconic than Little Mac."

 

[kaithehedgefox]

You use the word iconic a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Actually the word Iconic means relating to the nature of an Icon.

I don't think you understand what "iconic" means. It is not a quantifiable scalar that has an exact measurement. There are no equations or algorithms to determine how iconic a character is. How iconic a character is is relative and has no determined value. Unless you surveyed every person on the planet and asked if they recognized and how they felt about each character, there is zero way to accurately measure how iconic someone is. Only general assumptions can be made, like "Piranha Plant is more iconic than Corrin," or "Pikachu is more iconic than Little Mac."

No actually, I know the defintion of the word iconic, but I don't know how to describe it. Also, I'm just estimating now iconic those characters are.

 

[PhantomShab]

Ganondorf in smash is still powerful, heavy, intimidating, vicous, and uses dark magic.

They colored Captain Falcon's fire purple. You can call it dark magic or you can call it purple falcon fire. Only difference is that one of those is overselling it.

 

[Opossum]

They colored Captain Falcon's fire purple. You can call it dark magic or you can call it purple falcon fire. Only difference is that one of those is overselling it.

Functionally it's different from fire because it doesn't set off explosives.

 

[PhantomShab]

Functionally it's different from fire because it doesn't set off explosives.

That doesn't matter to me.

 

[Xelrog]

They colored Captain Falcon's fire purple. You can call it dark magic or you can call it purple falcon fire. Only difference is that one of those is overselling it.

What do you think he used in Ocarina? Vague purple wavy ****. Same thing.

How "iconic" a character is isn't something that can be objectively measured.

I don't think Kai has a good grasp of who is and isn't iconic, but this is the opposite extreme. No, it's not an exact science, but to say "well let's not even try because it can't be measured" is equally flawed. There's an obvious and distinct difference between the likes of Mario and Glover that can, on some level, be clearly measured.

 

[Deleted member]

They colored Captain Falcon's fire purple. You can call it dark magic or you can call it purple falcon fire. Only difference is that one of those is overselling it.

Sure pal, you got me.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Sometimes I wonder if the music team is biased against Metroid Prime music.

 

[Megadoomer]

I don't think Kai has a good grasp of who is and isn't iconic, but this is the opposite extreme. No, it's not an exact science, but to say "well let's not even try because it can't be measured" is equally flawed. There's an obvious and distinct difference between the likes of Mario and Glover that can, on some level, be clearly measured.

In extreme examples, sure - characters like Mario, Pac-Man, Sonic, and Pikachu are the sort that people could immediately recognize, even if they aren't familiar with, or only have a passing familiarity with, video games. The problem is that kai's been repeatedly claiming (in multiple threads) that characters like Joker, Bayonetta, or Ken aren't "iconic enough" to be in Smash, and that they shouldn't have been included in the game so that others (characters which, by all appearances, seem to be their personal favourites) can be in the game instead.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

In extreme examples, sure - characters like Mario, Pac-Man, Sonic, and Pikachu are the sort that people could immediately recognize, even if they aren't familiar with, or only have a passing familiarity with, video games. The problem is that kai's been repeatedly claiming (in multiple threads) that characters like Joker, Bayonetta, or Ken aren't "iconic enough" to be in Smash, and that they shouldn't have been included in the game so that others (characters which, by all appearances, seem to be their personal favourites) can be in the game instead.

Nah, I think Ken and Bayonetta are significantly Iconic.

No it's not because another character can be in the game. We could still have both Joker/Ren and Bomberman be playable for example.

 

[Cosmic77]

While I do think Bayonetta isn't as iconic as a majority of SmashBoard users make her out to be, that's not the reason why I think she wasn't a very good choice at the time.

For starters, the timing was just awful. I don't know how he could've done it better, but Bayo was definitely not a character you'd want to end the DLC on given the circumstances . People were getting their hopes up for a "ballot character" - someone who was undeniably extremely popular in most parts of the world. So instead of K. Rool or Banjo, we ended up with a character who was moderately popular at best. She may have had a large following somewhere, but it was easily drowned out by other requests. And then to add salt to the wound, we later found out that she may have been planned as early as April 2015 due to random files of Ike and ZSS being found.

Second, her franchise sticks out like a sore thumb. Sakurai's tried adding characters from more mature franchises long before Bayo came into the picture, but I feel like she's pushing every boundary. On top of her franchise being full of gore and having an abundance of nightmare-inducing monsters, she's the dictionary definition of fanservice gone too far. Her poses and movements are suggestive, she has a very seductive personality with a sultry voice to match it, and she literally strips down for one of her attacks.

So summarizing how I feel into two sentences, she doesn't remind me of anything Nintendo. The type of series she comes from feels better-suited for something like PlayStation All-Stars than it does Smash.

 

[osby]

I think Bayonetta fits into Smash perfectly because how visually camp and over-the-top she is, but I'm seriously tired of defending her years after her addition and when we have Metroid, Castlevania and Metal Gear in Smash.

I hope we get more characters like her instead of turning the DLC into a dead mascot fest, but that's just me.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Bayonetta fits into Smash perfectly because how visually camp and over-the-top she is, but I'm seriously tired of defending her years after her addition and when we have Metroid, Castlevania and Metal Gear in Smash.

I hope we get more characters like her instead of turning the DLC into a dead mascot fest, but that's just me.

Kinda the same.

Some recent characters would be amazing to have, such as Elma from Xenoblade X, Travis Touchdown, Dante or Jill Valentine. Maybe Layton or Wright too with some hope.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

I think Bayonetta fits into Smash perfectly because how visually camp and over-the-top she is, but I'm seriously tired of defending her years after her addition and when we have Metroid, Castlevania and Metal Gear in Smash.

I hope we get more characters like her instead of turning the DLC into a dead mascot fest, but that's just me.

Dead mascot fest? Aside from I'm not sure what that's supposed to imply.

 

[Megadoomer]

I think Bayonetta fits into Smash perfectly because how visually camp and over-the-top she is, but I'm seriously tired of defending her years after her addition and when we have Metroid, Castlevania and Metal Gear in Smash.

I hope we get more characters like her instead of turning the DLC into a dead mascot fest, but that's just me.

I feel like the dead mascot remark was uncalled for (the only character in the current DLC who fits that description was Banjo and Kazooie, and their inclusion was fantastic in my eyes), but I agree that Smash (and particularly the third party characters) should be more than just cartoony platforming mascots. Variety is the spice of life, and including franchises that Nintendo fans might not be as familiar with can encourage them to look into those other franchises.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like the dead mascot remark was uncalled for (the only character in the current DLC who fits that description was Banjo and Kazooie, and their inclusion was fantastic in my eyes), but I agree that Smash (and particularly the third party characters) should be more than just cartoony platforming mascots. Variety is the spice of life, and including franchises that Nintendo fans might not be as familiar with can encourage them to look into those other franchises.

I still believe that Level 5 should get a character in.

My personal pick is of course Layton.

And yeah, while I may be a Crash supporter, some genre variety would be amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Spoiler

So a shorter one it is.

That said, 4 made me appreciate his rather neat alternate specials. The various Wario Waft ones were pretty silly alone. But it also made me disappointed that some Echoes didn't go with a similar idea of how to improve them. Though there wasn't many options, I guess? Daisy and Dark Samus are kind of the only new Echoes that could've done that at this point. The rest were from characters from the previous game, or were from ones who didn't have custom moves(like Roy, or any newcomer in Ultimate like with Simon).

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I know some people detest the thought of nerfs, but I think it's still OK to throw ideas on the table. It's annoying to see how some people say "this game is balanced no one needs to be nerfed git gud" when clearly, if this game was balanced, players would not be creating tier lists and every single fighter would have the exact same amount of appearances in both casual and higher level play. Obviously everyone would like it better if low tier fighters got buffed instead of top tier fighters getting nerfed, but considering how the devs are more interested in casual than competitive play that's obviously not going to happen. I wish people could have an open mind when someone suggessts "maybe they could decrease the hitbox size of Ivysaur's down B" instead of "lol it's a balanced move just don't get hit" (I'm only using this as an example, none of this post reflects how I feel about any fighter I just find it frustrating when people immediately denounce those who suggest nerfs).