Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

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Cutie Gwen

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And then it'll be Zero who gets promoted and he becomes Bayonetta 2.0 for some people.


He's a bit of a paradox-- he's both refreshingly varied yet at the same time also displays some crazed mania towards his most wanted (refusing to acknowledge Incineroar at all and then getting low-key pissy in a video when he was revealed while to this day going on about how it's unreasonable for people to expect an 8th gen Pokemon and hoping for Lycanroc long past the point the train has passed.


Sakurai himself has said that "characters from series with no future are unlikely to be picked".
That should be the end of it; aside from the odd NES era retro pick, if the series a character is from isn't actively being utilized in some fashion then they have virtually no chance of getting in (this is especially applicable in regards to the "fan favorites" that got into Ultimate).


Because 3/4 of Smash 4's unique DLC characters were 3rd party, with the one that was 1st party being from a set aside list of promotional picks.

With Joker out there and Erdrick/DQ representation being the worst kept secret, past trends are gonna continue; heck, Nintendo themselves said in an investors' meeting that Smash DLC is going to be used to reach out to broader audiences.

Thus, it's only realistic and logical to expect the DLC to be mostly relevant 3rd party characters.
Honestly I kind of want to see a recent 4chan post with Grookey's final evolution supposedly being a Fighter Pass character just to see him eat crow again. Nothing against Del, he's one of the only good Smashtubers but his obsession with Lycanroc is obnoxious
Is this still unpopular?
Anyway: Roy is much, much better than Chrom. Both on stage and off stage (sourspots aren't a bad thing when they can lead into more stuff).
I'd say it's the popular opinion now as I see more Roy plays than Chrom. Still prefer Chrom due to the fact I actually play Fire Emblem and dislike Roy as a result
 

Manonymous

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I really dislike the changes to Link in this game. This is first time in any Smash game where I don't even so much as touch the character, let alone main him. His bombs in Smash 4 were one of his best tools and they got replaced by bombs that you need to be halfway across the stage to safely detonate and they can be invalidated just by the opponent casually holding them. He lost his hookshot, along with it a midair poking tool and recovery option. His recovery with up-b is as bad as it's been since Smash 64 and I read that trying to bomb jump with him is tricky and can screw you over. Also read that his frame data on a lot of moves is slightly worse than it was in Smash 4. He has pointless gimmicks like sword beams at 0% that probably never seen any use ever and he can pick up and throw arrows despite never doing that in any Zelda game.

Good think Young Link is here at least, so I have something resembling the old Link to play as.
How is his up-B as bad as in Smash64 ?
 

The DanMan051

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Smash Bros has never been "logical" about what characters it picks. Trying to create rules based on vaguely worded statements or trying to establish patterns based on the weird choices they've made so far can only lead to madness.

Support who you want. It's Nintendo. Who knows what the heck they're going to do at any given moment.
Of the "fan favorites" picked for Ultimate, all of them (K. Rool, Ridley, Chrom, and Dark Samus) were at least from active franchises-- if not actively used by those franchises. Is that not a clear pattern of prioritizing characters who are at least semi-marketable even when looking at fan demand?

Conversely, Smash 4's unique DLC newcomers had a clear pattern amongst them-- 3 3rd parties and one 1st party picked for marketing-- and everything we know so far suggest Ultimate will be similar (a 3rd party to kick things off, another 3rd party heavily rumored who could also act as marketing in the West).

I don't see how it's unreasonable to say there's patterns and a clear, underlying logic to things. It's not anything like the "rotating cast" theory between Brawl and Smash 4, because that itself was illogical (why would characters be cut for such arbitrary reasoning?) and its data (Roy and Mewtwo not being playable in Brawl) was heavily flawed (as they both had data in the game's files that strongly suggested they were planned to be playable but got scrapped).

This isn't "trying to create rules"; this is making logical inferences based on past events and official statements.

The madness is going to come from (or really, is already coming from) people with specific character wants who try make their own self-assured claims with incredibly obtuse data at best backing them up.

This. After plant and joker, nothing is certain. I think people should just enjoy forget the rules and go along for the ride.
Piranha Plant was explicitly picked for the sake of a joke character, and is all but officially confirmed to have been a base game character that couldn't be completed in time.

And Joker was strategic as hell-- Persona 5 is the most acclaimed JRPG of the console generation, and we know (from statements by both Sakurai and Xander Mobus) that Nintendo was very adamant about having him kick off the Fighter's Pass and be revealed at the VGAs (where in 2017 P5 won the best RPG award and was nominated for GOTY).
Using Erdrick as an example, he's both a gaming icon in Japan and would help promote DQXI:S in the West.

Honestly I kind of want to see a recent 4chan post with Grookey's final evolution supposedly being a Fighter Pass character just to see him eat crow again. Nothing against Del, he's one of the only good Smashtubers but his obsession with Lycanroc is obnoxious
I'm interested in that 4chan post-- probably BS, but it's always interesting seeing what the 4chaners are trying to get people with these days (lord knows the ones that catch on are at least more logical than most other stuff that comes out of the community).
 

Xelrog

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Characters get into Smash for reasons. People who claim there is no pattern at all are taking the easy way out: they don't understand the pattern so they feel smarter saying there isn't one.
 

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Characters get into Smash for reasons. People who claim there is no pattern at all are taking the easy way out: they don't understand the pattern so they feel smarter saying there isn't one.
I wouldn't say "pattern" but there are logical reasons for every character chosen. It's like people have become so anti-speculative that there's a prevailing thought that Sakurai chooses characters as he pleases randomly.
 

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I wouldn't say "pattern" but there are logical reasons for every character chosen. It's like people have become so anti-speculative that there's a prevailing thought that Sakurai chooses characters as he pleases randomly.
I mean, considering Piranha Plant is still fresh in everyone's minds, I wouldn't say it's super unfounded that people feel that way.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Of the "fan favorites" picked for Ultimate, all of them (K. Rool, Ridley, Chrom, and Dark Samus) were at least from active franchises-- if not actively used by those franchises. Is that not a clear pattern of prioritizing characters who are at least semi-marketable even when looking at fan demand?

Conversely, Smash 4's unique DLC newcomers had a clear pattern amongst them-- 3 3rd parties and one 1st party picked for marketing-- and everything we know so far suggest Ultimate will be similar (a 3rd party to kick things off, another 3rd party heavily rumored who could also act as marketing in the West).

I don't see how it's unreasonable to say there's patterns and a clear, underlying logic to things. It's not anything like the "rotating cast" theory between Brawl and Smash 4, because that itself was illogical (why would characters be cut for such arbitrary reasoning?) and its data (Roy and Mewtwo not being playable in Brawl) was heavily flawed (as they both had data in the game's files that strongly suggested they were planned to be playable but got scrapped).

This isn't "trying to create rules"; this is making logical inferences based on past events and official statements.

The madness is going to come from (or really, is already coming from) people with specific character wants who try make their own self-assured claims with incredibly obtuse data at best backing them up.


Piranha Plant was explicitly picked for the sake of a joke character, and is all but officially confirmed to have been a base game character that couldn't be completed in time.

And Joker was strategic as hell-- Persona 5 is the most acclaimed JRPG of the console generation, and we know (from statements by both Sakurai and Xander Mobus) that Nintendo was very adamant about having him kick off the Fighter's Pass and be revealed at the VGAs (where in 2017 P5 won the best RPG award and was nominated for GOTY).
Using Erdrick as an example, he's both a gaming icon in Japan and would help promote DQXI:S in the West.


I'm interested in that 4chan post-- probably BS, but it's always interesting seeing what the 4chaners are trying to get people with these days (lord knows the ones that catch on are at least more logical than most other stuff that comes out of the community).
It claimed Erdrick, Edelgard, Grookey's final evolution and Pheonix Wright. Also Kasumi/Countess would be a free echo for people who bought Joker. I'd share it but it mentions some stuff from the Three Houses leaks which turned out to be legit
 

osby

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I mean, considering Piranha Plant is still fresh in everyone's minds, I wouldn't say it's super unfounded that people feel that way.
Sakurai directly gave us the reason why he chose :ultpiranha:: To add a very well-known character who wasn't a typical hero.

I wouldn't say it was predictable, but it definitely wasn't random.
 
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I think that the team should have expanded more on the idea of the game as a music collection than they actually did so in the end, at most regarding 1st party tracks.

We got a lot of great songs, don’t get me wrong. But with the lack of some official releases for certain OSTs (Tropical Freeze’s for example, which currently needs to be found through non-official ways to get the full soundtrack) and stuff like the incomplete version of the DK Rap still being kept... I just feel that they should have gone more wild with the concept.
 

osby

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I just feel that they should have gone more wild with the concept.
Which concept? I don't remember Ultimate's soundtrack having a defined goal, aside from having more focus on battle-oriented tracks.
 

slrigeigdew

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Smash Bros has never been "logical" about what characters it picks. Trying to create rules based on vaguely worded statements or trying to establish patterns based on the weird choices they've made so far can only lead to madness.

Support who you want. It's Nintendo. Who knows what the heck they're going to do at any given moment.
Just to clarify these were the parts of the message I agreed with. Obviously Sakurai and Nintendo have their own rules for picking characters, my point is neither you nor I know exactly what they're looking for, so don't give up hope on any character if they dont fit "the rules".

Sakurai directly gave us the reason why he chose :ultpiranha:: To add a very well-known character who wasn't a typical hero.

I wouldn't say it was predictable, but it definitely wasn't random.
Thank you I was trying to put this to words. Sakurai's picks can often be unpredictable but NOT random.

There's plenty of reasons for Joker to be Smash, but that didn't mean everyone was expecting him to be the first DLC pick.
 
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Which concept? I don't remember Ultimate's soundtrack having a defined goal, aside from having more focus on battle-oriented tracks.
If I remember correctly (maybe not), the Direct where K.Rool got revealed mentioned that the list of tracks could be easily used as a music player for most of the Nintendo OSTs anywhere you go.

And while they got close to that, I feel that they could have done a bit more with that.
 

Calamitas

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Still prefer Chrom due to the fact I actually play Fire Emblem and dislike Roy as a result
Hey, someone else with taste! Nice!

It claimed Erdrick, Edelgard, Grookey's final evolution and Pheonix Wright. Also Kasumi/Countess would be a free echo for people who bought Joker. I'd share it but it mentions some stuff from the Three Houses leaks which turned out to be legit
That would honestly be an extremely random selection of characters, but I wouldn't actually be opposed to it.
 

osby

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If I remember correctly (maybe not), the Direct where K.Rool got revealed mentioned that the list of tracks could be easily used as a music player for most of the Nintendo OSTs anywhere you go.

And while they got close to that, I feel that they could have done a bit more with that.
Just checked the part you're talking about. There's no claim of Ultimate having most of the Nintendo OSTs. The closest is Sakurai saying "it's like having an album of each series", which admittedly doesn't fit very well to some series.
 

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It claimed Erdrick, Edelgard, Grookey's final evolution and Pheonix Wright. Also Kasumi/Countess would be a free echo for people who bought Joker. I'd share it but it mentions some stuff from the Three Houses leaks which turned out to be legit
Grass starter meme, discarded.
 
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Piranha Plant was explicitly picked for the sake of a joke character, and is all but officially confirmed to have been a base game character that couldn't be completed in time.
Completely false.
Sakurai never said Piranha Plant was added for the sake of a joke, and Sakurai is not the type to just hold off something planned for the initial release and make people have to pay for it later just because there was no time to finish.

It is more reasonable to assume Plant always was going to be a pre-order bonus character.
 
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Just checked the part you're talking about. There's no claim of Ultimate having most of the Nintendo OSTs. The closest is Sakurai saying "it's like having an album of each series", which admittedly doesn't fit very well to some series.
Yup, I was referring to that.
 

UserKev

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Please elaborate. As a major Bandana Dee supporter I don see how he could possibly be forced.
I don't know what else to say, really. Its just my opinion. I feel like Bandana Dee has two bandwagons. Its sincere while having the whole "Our lord and savior" behind it.

Bandana Dee feels like a meme pick.
 

The DanMan051

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It claimed Erdrick, Edelgard, Grookey's final evolution and Pheonix Wright. Also Kasumi/Countess would be a free echo for people who bought Joker. I'd share it but it mentions some stuff from the Three Houses leaks which turned out to be legit
Intrigued a tad. Please stick the link on my profile.
Completely false.
Sakurai never said Piranha Plant was added for the sake of a joke, and Sakurai is not the type to just hold off something planned for the initial release and make people have to pay for it later just because there was no time to finish.

It is more reasonable to assume Plant always was going to be a pre-order bonus character.
Got the exact reasoning for the Plant wrong, sure. But based on the amount of files it had at launch and how it has a Guidance convo when none of the other DLC characters do... I don't see how my assumption is unreasonable.
 

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Sakurai directly gave us the reason why he chose :ultpiranha:: To add a very well-known character who wasn't a typical hero.

I wouldn't say it was predictable, but it definitely wasn't random.
It still feels very surprising, considering that the Piranha Plant is a generic enemy; you would think that generics are very low priority (even lower than spin-off exclusive characters).
 

PhantomShab

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It still feels very surprising, considering that the Piranha Plant is a generic enemy; you would think that generics are very low priority (even lower than spin-off exclusive characters).
Plant was a higher priority than Waluigi, Bomberman, Shadow, Skull Kid, Midna, Ashley, etc.
 

Troykv

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Are you really sure about that? Because ever since Joker came out, it has felt to me like people expect third-party character more than they do Nintendo character for the Fighter's Pass.
Getting more Third Parties is likely.

But getting a specific Third Party is another story.
 

Mogisthelioma

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I don't know what else to say, really. Its just my opinion. I feel like Bandana Dee has two bandwagons. Its sincere while having the whole "Our lord and savior" behind it.

Bandana Dee feels like a meme pick.
It's called a joke, and with that mentality I genuinely wonder how you feel about other fanbases.

I take no offense, but the "Our Lord and Savior" phrase is one of many lines almost every fanbase for a character has as jokes.

The real meme picks would be Sans or Hastune Miku.
 
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*Puts up flame shield*
I am not upset over Assist Trophies in general. In fact, I was more devastated that the likes of Saki Amamiya of the Sin and Punishment series, Infantry and Tanks from the Nintendo/Advance War series didn't make a return. Even if their effectiveness of assisting isn't that good. But also was excited to see such characters like Yuri Kozukata of the Project Zero/Fatal Frame fame and Nikki from Swapnote to be in it.
Perhaps because I don't have a strong attachment to certain characters that I want them playable but at the same time, it’s not realistic for every single fan favourite to be playable in the game. I don't know, there's something about fans painting them as worst the thing to had happened in the game just irks me to no end.
 
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Plant was a higher priority than Waluigi, Bomberman, Shadow, Skull Kid, Midna, Ashley, etc.
That's pretty much the huge irony about this ordeal. The Piranha Plant is just a generic character, and it's one who has never been playable, even in the Mario spin-offs.
 

UserKev

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It's called a joke, and with that mentality I genuinely wonder how you feel about other fanbases.

I take no offense, but the "Our Lord and Savior" phrase is one of many lines almost every fanbase for a character has as jokes.

The real meme picks would be Sans or Hastune Miku.
I only ever noticed the "Our lord and Savior" until Bandana Dee support.
 

Cutie Gwen

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*Puts up flame shield*
I am not upset over Assist Trophies in general. In fact, I was more devastated that the likes of Saki Amamiya of the Sin and Punishment series, Infantry and Tanks from the Nintendo/Advance War series didn't make a return. Even if their effectiveness of assisting isn't that good. But also was excited to see such characters like Yuri Kozukata of the Project Zero/Fatal Frame fame and Nikki from Swapnote to be in it.
Perhaps because I don't have a strong attachment to certain characters that I want them playable but at the same time, it’s not realistic for every single fan favourite to be playable in the game. I don't know there's something about fans painting them as worst thing to had happened in the game just irks me to no end.
Honestly, Saki's absence as a whole is just weird. He's just a mii costume now and he's been one of the first Assists revealed iirc. Wonder what happened behind the scenes
 

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Honestly, Saki's absence as a whole is just weird. He's just a mii costume now and he's been one of the first Assists revealed iirc. Wonder what happened behind the scenes
Conspiracy theory time, but he has in-game assets with the costume and the Assist roster is one away from an even sixty. I think he was cut mid-development for some reason.
 

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Conspiracy theory time, but he has in-game assets with the costume and the Assist roster is one away from an even sixty. I think he was cut mid-development for some reason.
I think they were running out of memory and wanted to prioritize the new ATs.
 

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It's called a joke, and with that mentality I genuinely wonder how you feel about other fanbases.

I take no offense, but the "Our Lord and Savior" phrase is one of many lines almost every fanbase for a character has as jokes.

The real meme picks would be Sans or Hastune Miku.
Heh y-yeah... Meme picks...
 

Cutie Gwen

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Actually you know what here's an unpopular opinion. The idea that Sakurai doesn't want to pull another Roy as proof for why characters like Edelgard, a Gen 8 Pokemon, Astral Chain, whatever, are barking up the wrong tree. Joker was revealed before work on him was even done, meaning development for Joker was 5 months long, it's reasonable to assume this is the norm for characters, but the interesting thing is that people forget how game development works outside of this. Games tend to spend the last few months of development to test balance, see if there's any glitches that need fixing, put in some graphical improvements, that kind of stuff. Then there's how the games goes gold a month before they release. In the case of Pokemon, Greninja is often used as an example as he only had concept art when being picked, but if we assume the DLC was decided around the time the game went gold (Piranha Plant obviously being an exception to this due to being unfinished at the time of release) then that means Game Freak was close to rounding up development as games tend to take 2-3 years of development. It's unreasonable to assume Game Freak hadn't finalized their Pokemon roster by that time as they'd be focusing on finishing the game up before quality testing around November. Then there's how Three Houses releases in 2 months, meaning it's nearly gone gold and the work that's been done for a few months was quality assurance, same deal with Astral Chain as that releases a month after Three Houses iirc. That being said, there's a good chance Sakurai wouldn't want to include these characters for whatever reason, with "Well their game isn't out yet, I don't want a promotional pick as DLC" being a possible reason.


TLDR: People are using arguments wrong to dismiss promotional picks
Intrigued a tad. Please stick the link on my profile.

Got the exact reasoning for the Plant wrong, sure. But based on the amount of files it had at launch and how it has a Guidance convo when none of the other DLC characters do... I don't see how my assumption is unreasonable.
Here's what the thing basically said but without the angry flavour text bemoaning about how bad it is
Warning, mild spoilers for Three Houses
Erdrick to be revealed at E3 with male and female costumes, released on the same day a la Joker
Edelgard to be revealed at E3, August release and has a student outfit and an adult outfit (Likely meant to be the second outfit she gets after a major event in the game)
Phoenix Wright, November release, has classic and modern designs as alts
Countess, November release, free echo for those who bought Joker, not part of the fighter pass (The Kasumi girl)
Baboom, Grookey's final evolution, February release, would have a rhythm gimmick that clearly wouldn't work online
The rest is just going "UGH WHY THIS AND NOT SOMETHING I WANT in a similar manner to the guy who leaked Piranha Plant. That being said I don't believe this is real but would greatly enjoy the fanbase meltdowns
 

The DanMan051

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Actually you know what here's an unpopular opinion. The idea that Sakurai doesn't want to pull another Roy as proof for why characters like Edelgard, a Gen 8 Pokemon, Astral Chain, whatever, are barking up the wrong tree. Joker was revealed before work on him was even done, meaning development for Joker was 5 months long, it's reasonable to assume this is the norm for characters, but the interesting thing is that people forget how game development works outside of this. Games tend to spend the last few months of development to test balance, see if there's any glitches that need fixing, put in some graphical improvements, that kind of stuff. Then there's how the games goes gold a month before they release. In the case of Pokemon, Greninja is often used as an example as he only had concept art when being picked, but if we assume the DLC was decided around the time the game went gold (Piranha Plant obviously being an exception to this due to being unfinished at the time of release) then that means Game Freak was close to rounding up development as games tend to take 2-3 years of development. It's unreasonable to assume Game Freak hadn't finalized their Pokemon roster by that time as they'd be focusing on finishing the game up before quality testing around November. Then there's how Three Houses releases in 2 months, meaning it's nearly gone gold and the work that's been done for a few months was quality assurance, same deal with Astral Chain as that releases a month after Three Houses iirc. That being said, there's a good chance Sakurai wouldn't want to include these characters for whatever reason, with "Well their game isn't out yet, I don't want a promotional pick as DLC" being a possible reason.


TLDR: People are using arguments wrong to dismiss promotional picks

Here's what the thing basically said but without the angry flavour text bemoaning about how bad it is
Warning, mild spoilers for Three Houses
Erdrick to be revealed at E3 with male and female costumes, released on the same day a la Joker
Edelgard to be revealed at E3, August release and has a student outfit and an adult outfit (Likely meant to be the second outfit she gets after a major event in the game)
Phoenix Wright, November release, has classic and modern designs as alts
Countess, November release, free echo for those who bought Joker, not part of the fighter pass (The Kasumi girl)
Baboom, Grookey's final evolution, February release, would have a rhythm gimmick that clearly wouldn't work online
The rest is just going "UGH WHY THIS AND NOT SOMETHING I WANT in a similar manner to the guy who leaked Piranha Plant. That being said I don't believe this is real but would greatly enjoy the fanbase meltdowns
The Pokemon argument is especially nonsensical, as... Greninja had a finalized design a year and a half before X and Y release/in time to make the base roster of Smash 4. We know for a fact the DLC roster got locked in back in the first week of November, so... yeah.

Also Smash 4's DLC had resources set aside strictly for a promotional 1st party pick; where on earth are people getting the idea that "Sakurai wouldn't want to pull another Roy"?

Ah, so they're still going with Edelgard instead of Byleth.
Banking on another leak with hardly anything backing it up (their only track record was a couple character names and details, and that's the only thing they've gotten right so far) is typical, of course.

Phoenix Wright is too much of a fandom echo chamber pick-- the most likely Capcom character in the Fighters' Pass IMO is Chris Redfield. People sleep on RE in general.

As others said, a Grass starter already feels suspect but that by itself wouldn't be enough for me to write it off.

...Honestly, Phoenix Wright is the only character I'd be kinda disappointed in.
To fire out the characters I think are most likely:
>Erdrick
>Byleth or Neuron Police Officer
>Steve
>8th gen Pokemon

With Heihachi and Chris Redfield up there as well, and Ezio Auditore/Assassin's Creed rep as the Western pick that makes sense but nobody's talking about because they've gotta pretend Rayman is the only option for Ubisoft. (I personally don't believe Doom Slayer has much of a shot, because the very fact Pete Hines talked about talking Smash with Nintendo makes it seem like he wasn't under NDA.)

I guess in light of that, I will say: I can't see them announcing Erdrick and then a first party at E3.
It's either going to be Erdrick and a 3rd party or Erdrick, a 1st party, and then tease another 3rd party.
 

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If you're not into the rest of the fighters' pass being Byleth, Edalgard, Dimitri, and Claude, you're an ungrateful entitled idiot and don't deserve to play the game.

(Okay, but no seriously though if there is a character from an unreleased game, I would hope at least that it would be from something like Daemon x Machina or Astral Chain instead of the more obvious picks)
 
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Honestly, Saki's absence as a whole is just weird. He's just a mii costume now and he's been one of the first Assists revealed iirc. Wonder what happened behind the scenes
I don't think there would ever be an official word on why certain Assist Trophies don't make the cut. My wild guess, in Ultimate's case, is that there were too many of them and they had to remove some to make way for new ones but who gets removed, well..... The devs threw darts on the board and that's how it is decided.
 

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My least favorite special move concept is the, "character summons other character from their franchise." thing.
I've been seeing often for every potential newcomer and wondering why this specifically keeps coming up as a suggestion. It doesn't make the character sound fun or interesting IMO, it's more like they have so little to offer on their own that they need to bring another character into the battle.
 

Opossum

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My least favorite special move concept is the, "character summons other character from their franchise." thing.
I've been seeing often for every potential newcomer and wondering why this specifically keeps coming up as a suggestion. It doesn't make the character sound fun or interesting IMO, it's more like they have so little to offer on their own that they need to bring another character into the battle.
I blame Brawl Dedede.
 
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