Unpopular Smash Ultimate Opinions! - Read the OP before Posting

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SSBU isn't balanced in spite of what many might believe. A balanced fighting game would focus on each character's strengths and weaknesses and find ways so that each character has a chance, rather than having some ratios one-sided. 50:50 would be ideal, but 45:55 would be realistic. While there are characters who actually need nerfs, Sakurai or whoever thought it best to punish every projectile user, probably at the beck and call of every whiny player who needs a hand.

I already know about one fictitious character who punishes his creation for being the way they are in spite of creating them that way. Yet, here we are with Sakurai & Co. once again doing just that. I don't know if it's just that swords are preferred in Japan over firearms, but it seems that way. And of course, I've no reason to think Sakurai cares about us Metroid fans, even after begging for jab to be fixed, for u-smash to connect, and now for f-air to be better. No, just listen to whiny casuals.
 
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osby

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SSBU isn't balanced in spite of what many might believe. A balanced fighting game would focus on each character's strengths and weaknesses and find ways so that each character has a chance, rather than having some ratios one-sided. 50:50 would be ideal, but 45:55 would be realistic. While there are characters who actually need nerfs, Sakurai or whoever thought it best to punish every projectile user, probably at the beck and call of every whiny player who needs a hand.

I already know about one fictitious character who punishes his creation for being the way they are in spite of creating them that way. Yet, here we are with Sakurai & Co. once again doing just that. I don't know if it's just that swords are preferred in Japan over firearms, but it seems that way. And of course, I've no reason to think Sakurai cares about us Metroid fans, even after begging for jab to be fixed, for u-smash to connect, and now for f-air to be better. No, just listen to whiny casuals.
If Japan hates firearms and wants to nerf them as much as possible, they did a very bad job at it, considering how good Fox, Wolf and Snake are.
 

Calamitas

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Yet with the reception from his reveal at the VGAs and the fact the E-shop went down and the system update was massively backloaded when he was made available (something that IIRC never happened with Smash 4's DLC characters), it's quite apparent that he's sold himself and the Fighter's Pass just fine.

The world doesn't revolve around your interests; Joker sold himself the moment he was revealed.
Hell, I know someone who was iffy on Ultimate but got it after Joker was announced. And a $60 purchase is 10 times the revenue of a $6 one.
Yeah, well, it's almost like this thread is called "Unpopular Smash 5 Opinions". Imagine that. I get that most people seem to be fine with the guy, but I simply don't see the appeal.
And side note, it's not even true that he crashed the servers. It's just that they had a poorly scheduled maintenance set for the time when he came available.
 

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And side note, it's not even true that he crashed the servers. It's just that they had a poorly scheduled maintenance set for the time when he came available.
The crashing continued long after the maintenance.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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If Japan hates firearms and wants to nerf them as much as possible, they did a very bad job at it, considering how good Fox, Wolf and Snake are.
The irony about Fox's Blaster is that it's good at building up damage, but its inability to make fighters flinch render it useless at stopping approaches. As such, using it at close range can be a big mistake.
 
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If Japan hates firearms and wants to nerf them as much as possible, they did a very bad job at it, considering how good Fox, Wolf and Snake are.
Those three don't rely heavily on firearms, unless you're a Wi-Fi warrior. In that case, you might as well drop the character.
 
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I kind of miss the old versions of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. It's not that I don't like their new versions, it's just the Twilight Princess designs were also neat too and I was a little sad to see them go. I wish there was a way they could integrate both the new and the old versions, and possible their Ocarina of Time designs (for Link and Zelda) from Melee.
 

Gimmick-Hater

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Unpopular opinion/rant. This isn't really an unpopular opinion thread. It's pretty much the Ultimate Social thread 2.0. Most of the unpopular opinions are over-looked, or they criticized for being, get this, unpopular. No wonder the OP made this the golden rule...

"The Golden Rule: NO CRITICIZING OTHER POSTERS' OPINIONS. This is NOT a debate thread. Do not post on here if you're going to attack/debate someone for their opinion. If you disagree with somebody and can't follow this rule, I will be upset, and that's probably the worst thing you can do on here (plus I'll totally tell on you and report). "

I mean, I'm guilty of this to, but I try to avoid doing so as much as possible, and will usually only respond if someone quotes me. Still, imagine coming to an unpopular opinion thread expecting to read "positive" unpopular opinions, ignoring the fact that the reason an opinion is unpopular is usually due to the negative nature of said opinion.

My favorite is when someone responds to an opinion just to tell someone that it's there opinion, or that others feel differently. Like, wow... A person posting an unpopular opinion in a thread about unpopular opinions, and it's just their opinion, and others have different opinions... How can this be? [Insert surprised Pickachu face]. It's like people forgot this WAS an unpopular opinion thread.

Also, I love the fact that everything is pretty much unpopular & popular.

Person 1: "Hey guys, unpopular opinion, I really dislike [insert character] and think he's lame."

Person 2: "Well guys, here's my unpopular opinion, I actually think [insert same character that Person 1 dislikes] is great, and one of the best additions to the game."

Person 3: "You guys realize that something can't be popular, and unpopular."
 
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D

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Not sure if many agree on this or not, but I find it annoying to work with stage builder without a stylus.

I wish that the Switch released with one because I’m not comfortable using the touch screen without it.

Although it is now another reason for me to buy SMM2.
 

UserKev

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I have to laugh my voice off after the new stage builder incident. The fans will absolutely abuse the feature if you specifically design it to that function. Remove the whole feature, its pointless and can't surpass the charm of actual stages.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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A lot of people think that if something is non-competetive in Smash it needs no balancing. Back in Melee items and hazardous stages were fun to use because they were crazy... but not too crazy. It's like Mario Kart or Mario Party, it's random and zany but no one enjoys the Blue Shell in Mario Kart. That takes it too far and it becomes annoying.
Just wanted to make a small remark in regards to the Blue Shell in Mario Kart.

That item is a necessary "evil" and removing it would be detrimental to the game's health. People just don't see it that way because they only recall those times that the Blue Shell stole first place from them.
Without it, if you are in first place and get ahead of the pack, there is little other players can do to catch up to you. If you are in first place, unopposed with no one to challenge your position, it becomes boring as well. The Blue Shell is the ultimate equalizer.

SSBU isn't balanced in spite of what many might believe. A balanced fighting game would focus on each character's strengths and weaknesses and find ways so that each character has a chance, rather than having some ratios one-sided. 50:50 would be ideal, but 45:55 would be realistic. While there are characters who actually need nerfs, Sakurai or whoever thought it best to punish every projectile user, probably at the beck and call of every whiny player who needs a hand.
50:50 ratio might be ideal to you, but you clearly don't see that it's unhealthy for the experience and a sure way recipe to make a boring game.

We want to play and spectate a game that offers different playstyles. Developers shouldn't aspire to make a game where everyone has equal chances to beat anybody, because then the game becomes completely uninteresting. That is not to say that balance should be ignored or we might end up with a polarizing situation like Brawl Meta Knight.

You speak of 45:55 being a realistic goal as if it was easy, as if Smash was a symmetric game like Tetris, but balancing in fighting games is a very complex pursuit. Most games are asymmetric so they aren't even striving to become balanced. Best you can do is constantly update your game and buff the weaker characters so that they can become more fun to play as, but having some unfavorable matchups is going to be a given.

If you truly seek a 1:1 balanced game, Street Fighter I or board games like Chess or Checkers are more suited options.

And what's with the Metroid fan self pity party?

Unpopular opinion/rant. This isn't really an unpopular opinion thread. It's pretty much the Ultimate Social thread 2.0. Most of the unpopular opinions are over-looked, or they criticized for being, get this, unpopular. No wonder the OP made this the golden rule...

"The Golden Rule: NO CRITICIZING OTHER POSTERS' OPINIONS. This is NOT a debate thread. Do not post on here if you're going to attack/debate someone for their opinion. If you disagree with somebody and can't follow this rule, I will be upset, and that's probably the worst thing you can do on here (plus I'll totally tell on you and report). "

I mean, I'm guilty of this to, but I try to avoid doing so as much as possible, and will usually only respond if someone quotes me. Still, imagine coming to an unpopular opinion thread expecting to read "positive" unpopular opinions, ignoring the fact that the reason an opinion is unpopular is usually due to the negative nature of said opinion.

My favorite is when someone responds to an opinion just to tell someone that it's there opinion, or that others feel differently. Like, wow... A person posting an unpopular opinion in a thread about unpopular opinions, and it's just their opinion, and others have different opinions... How can this be? [Insert surprised Pickachu face]. It's like people forgot this WAS an unpopular opinion thread.

Also, I love the fact that everything is pretty much unpopular & popular.

Person 1: "Hey guys, unpopular opinion, I really dislike [insert character] and think he's lame."

Person 2: "Well guys, here's my unpopular opinion, I actually think [insert same character that Person 1 dislikes] is great, and one of the best additions to the game."

Person 3: "You guys realize that something can't be popular, and unpopular."
I'm sorry, but are you being serious? Are you implying that arguing an unpopular opinion is disrespectful just because it was written in this thread?

Yes, I am aware of the rule in this thread, which is something I can't completely agree on because it promotes a degree of intellectual cowardice. People use it to shelter beliefs that are questionable or indefensible for good reasons and then complain that you shouldn't argue with them because it's disrespectful. People have this misconception that they are entitled to their opinion and that everything they say or think is valid to a certain extent because "opinions can't be wrong, right?"; but that is not true; they are entitled to what they can argue for.

If you tell me that you like chocolate more than vanilla, then it would be silly for me to argue your opinion. If you tell me that the resources for our management project are being wasted on it and are of better use somewhere else, then you better give me a good reason for that. Some opinions are flawed because we aren't perfect and are subject to make mistakes.

If you don't want people challenging your views, then think twice before posting on a public site. If you are afraid of someone making you upset, then go write a blog or on your diary. Or you could learn to stand up for yourself, defend your views, recognize if they are worth holding or when they become an outdated belief. Your choice, but don't come telling us that we are disrespecting you for discussing with you.
 

Xelrog

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Just wanted to make a small remark in regards to the Blue Shell in Mario Kart.

That item is a necessary "evil" and removing it would be detrimental to the game's health. People just don't see it that way because they only recall those times that the Blue Shell stole first place from them.
Without it, if you are in first place and get ahead of the pack, there is little other players can do to catch up to you. If you are in first place, unopposed with no one to challenge your position, it becomes boring as well. The Blue Shell is the ultimate equalizer.
Well, yeah, that's the theory. In practice first place is the easiest place to be in for a multitude of other, non-blue-shell-related reasons and the blue shell is an attempted bandaid fix that punishes skill and doesn't equalize anything.
 
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Unhealthy? Boring? You mean like the way of SSB4, which many said was more balanced than previous titles? And now we have the same being said here, but as time goes on, we'll see who's viable and who isn't. A balanced game provides variety, so you have a very strange view of what constitutes as "unhealthy" and "boring".

I said 45:55 is realistic. I never suggested or implied that it was easy, but I would have to say fewer characters or a lot more development would certainly help reach that goal. Chess and checkers lack particular Nintendo characters I'd like to play as, and while I do like a game of checkers, it's not a game I'd pursue professionally.

As for Metroid pity parties, I'm just going to continue complaining. After all, casuals complain and end up getting what they want. "Projectiles are too good! Punish all characters whose mechanics are centered around projectiles!" "Nerf PK Fire! The game is four months old, but I still can't escape!" "Nerf Ness' d-smash! Yes, he's been gimped for years, but how dare he get that same opportunity as everyone else!" "Little Mac is too strong! Nerf his recovery!" Unless you use a popular character, a la Bayo and Cloud.
 
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pupNapoleon

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Forget it no point arguing over this...I still stand with my opinion though that Goku needs to stay away from Smash and I will never understand why he gets to be an exception.
I know this is a few pages back, I just want to stand with you in solidarity.
 

Arthur97

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Yeah, well, it's almost like this thread is called "Unpopular Smash 5 Opinions". Imagine that. I get that most people seem to be fine with the guy, but I simply don't see the appeal.
And side note, it's not even true that he crashed the servers. It's just that they had a poorly scheduled maintenance set for the time when he came available.
But the poor maintenance supports the argument.
 
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SSBU isn't balanced in spite of what many might believe. A balanced fighting game would focus on each character's strengths and weaknesses and find ways so that each character has a chance, rather than having some ratios one-sided. 50:50 would be ideal, but 45:55 would be realistic. While there are characters who actually need nerfs, Sakurai or whoever thought it best to punish every projectile user, probably at the beck and call of every whiny player who needs a hand.

I already know about one fictitious character who punishes his creation for being the way they are in spite of creating them that way. Yet, here we are with Sakurai & Co. once again doing just that. I don't know if it's just that swords are preferred in Japan over firearms, but it seems that way. And of course, I've no reason to think Sakurai cares about us Metroid fans, even after begging for jab to be fixed, for u-smash to connect, and now for f-air to be better. No, just listen to whiny casuals.
I agree that whoever is in charge of balancing should research further than online win ratios. The dev team needs to open their eyes and look at what the most experienced players are saying.

I disagree strongly that Sakurai is biased against Metroid fans. It's poor balancing, like everyone is complaining about, not bias. If people attributed poor balancing to bias of the creator, Kirby and Little Mac fans would be rioting in the streets (the argument of Sakurai being biased against Kirby is completely unrelated, however).
 

Gimmick-Hater

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I like stages with crazy, and over the top hazards. Stuff like Devil Man on Willy's Castle, and Ridley on Pyrosphere (RIP) is what really sold those stages. It's also one of the reasons I find the new stages added to Ultimate to be incredibly lame. Most of them are just a bit to bland, and don't have a lot going on. They could've spice some of them up. Especially Dracula's Castle. The way it was presented made it seem like the various monsters actually did stuff, but that's not the case. They're just there, and then vanish. They don't even have Dracula appear as a boss on the stage (that, or he's so rare that he just never appears for me).
 

Cutie Gwen

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-Third parties are significantly more hype than any Nintendo character could possibly be at this point, even if I'd rather have 'grounded' third parties kept to Kazuma Kiryu or Pheonix Wright kept to a minimum If you feel that after all this that there isn't enough Nintendo in Smash, you're unpleasant
-World of Light wasn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Although they could have cut about half of the first map and nobody would really complain
-Nintendo is too goddamn cheap, resorting to non-union actors and being the reason why Final Fantasy got so screwed in the music department. It's a disgrace
-People complaining about Fire Emblem being too represented have become the most obnoxious kind of Smash fans
-I think Samus should get a retooled moveset. While she's fine in this game from what I hear, she feels like she'd have changed the most of being added later in the Smash franchise compared to others (i.e. Ganondorf and Snake)
-I for the life of me cannot find a single reason to find joy at the sheer idea of Banjo Kazooie being added in Smash
-Sonic and Yoshi are the most obnoxious characters I've had the displeasure of facing against (To be fair Yoshi's a case of me not being able to figure the character out in particular)
-Pokemon's starting to feel 'over represented' due to having 10 fighters, a buttload of stages, songs and the Pokeball summon. I get that it's literally the biggest franchise on the planet, but I think adding more on top would be overkill
-I know this is more of an Ultimate thread but anyone who still goes "It's Smash For not Smash 4!" should get smacked in the face
 
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This thread really should just be renamed 'Smash Ultimate Opinions thread' at this point because as many have already pointed out a lot of these 'unpopular' opinions are shared by 90% of the community.

"Third parties are more hype than Nintendo characters" might just be the most popular opinion on the entire forum at this point.

I think there's about four or five of us in total who'd rather just have Nintendo only DLC than more third parties and the rest shout us the **** down for being 'greedy' for personal preferences. If I'm considered unpleasant for wanting Captain Toad, Dixie Kong and Bandana Dee over say...Erdrick, Jill Valentine and whoever else is heavily rumoured right now then I guess I'm an unpleasant individual. But no more unpleasant than the usual retorts to wanting more Nintendo and less third party;

"It's not all about what YOU want. Others may want third parties"
Well, obviously. Obviously other people DO want third parties, but I don't think any of them are going to care about what I want either? You want Joker? Fill your boots. My utter indifference shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the character. Doesn't stop me wishing I could finally get the one character I've wanted for 20 years to debut as a fighter. That's longer than most users have been alive.

"Don't like it? Don't buy it!"
To which I say; absolutely.
I don't much care for Lucas, I didn't buy him in Sm4sh. I probably won't purchase Joker as he doesn't interest me, and depending on the rest of the fighters I may not get any of them either. Seems daft to spend cash on optional fighters you don't want, to me too.

"Third Parties are hype, there's no decent Nintendo characters left to include"
Absolutely subjective. Personally Captain Toad's inclusion would make me backflip down the street for finally getting a playable Toad in after two decades whilst a 'hype' third party like the now debunked Dante would do absolutely nothing for me. His inclusion would be less 'FINALLY EARNED HIS INCLUSION' and more 'Oh, so he's in now. How unexpected. Great.'
Also to tell people who have supported these Nintendo characters for years that their favourite characters aren't worthy enough to get in is kinda ****ty. Can we stop this?

Actually thinking about it, the rename for this should probably instead be the "Smash Community Rant thread".
 
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pupNapoleon

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-Third parties are significantly more hype than any Nintendo character could possibly be at this point, even if I'd rather have 'grounded' third parties kept to Kazuma Kiryu or Pheonix Wright kept to a minimum If you feel that after all this that there isn't enough Nintendo in Smash, you're unpleasant
-I for the life of me cannot find a single reason to find joy at the sheer idea of Banjo Kazooie being added in Smash
How do these things go together!?
 
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How do these things go together!?
Like pickles and ice cream.


Anyway, I'm kind of glad :ultmarth: isn't considered Top Tier, it means I rarely encounter him anymore. (Wasn't a fan of fighting :4marth:)

How 'bout instead of buffing Marth to Lucy's level, they nerf Lucy to Marth's level :grin:
 
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Beth Uriel

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How do these things go together!?
I think it's pretty easy to understand;

Third parties in general are hype for the user.

One particular third party is not.

There's always exceptions and all. For instance, say I loved the idea of Avatar characters getting into Smash. I might not like one particular character of this nature. It doesn't mean I dislike the idea of Avatar characters. It just means I don't like that particular character. It's not contradictory unless one of my reasons for that character being a bad choice is "because they're an avatar character". In this case, the concept of 3rd parties is very hype for Gwen. It's just one specific third party doesn't do it for her. And that's fine, of course. People can't get hyped on every character.
 

The DanMan051

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I'd be more than okay with most Western 3rd party characters in Smash. Hell, sign me up for freakin' Jonesy.


Also, I've noticed that far more often than not, vocally supporting a character just leads to disappointment and irritation. This is going to sound ridiculously cynical, but when the amount of characters who got in off of genuine fan support can be counted on one hand... you start wondering what the point is.

I really wanted Rex and Monster Hunter in Ultimate. I mentioned it in several places, sorta crafted a moveset, but when they didn't make it in I moved on.
Conversely, you've got people "supporting" characters for multiple games in a row, leading to desperation and general unpleasant discussion around them (Ultimate's pre-release had Geno and Isaac as the frontrunners of that). Why even get so worked up in the first place?

Also, people go on about how "relevance doesn't matter" when... yeah, it kinda does.
Ultimate's the only game that sorta broke the trend, and even then it's telling who got included: Ridley and K. Rool are both from long-running and somewhat active franchises (albeit both are on something of a hiatus), with the former being a regular enemy within his. Chrom and Dark Samus were low-effort additions by virtue of being Echoes, and Castlevania's a classic series that's still getting ports and merchandise/side material (also worth mentioning that Sakurai nearly went with Alucard over Simon due to the former's far greater popularity).

The logic people were using to try and support the Grinch Leak, among other things, bears resemblance to the logic of "Ike will get cut for Chrom" and "Lucario will be cut for a new Pokemon" during the early days of Smash 4 speculation.
Once or twice isn't a pattern.
A real pattern would be "we've got at least one new Pokemon every game and Sakurai has repeatedly mentioned resources being set aside during development for a Pokemon from the newest games so there's probably always going to be a Pokemon newcomer from the newest non-remake games".

I guess I just don't get why people can't accept the realities of the situation and work with them, instead of vocally complaining about them and trying to defy them. (Also, what the hell is the point of prolonged complaining about character additions? They're there and they're not going to get cut just because you screech that you don't like them for long enough.)


...Man, this thread is just my rhetorical essay dump in regards to the going-ons of the Smash fandom, huh?
 
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Guynamednelson

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"Third parties are more hype than Nintendo characters" might just be the most popular opinion on the entire forum at this point.

I think there's about four or five of us in total who'd rather just have Nintendo only DLC than more third parties and the rest shout us the **** down for being 'greedy' for personal preferences.
I don't exclusively want Nintendo characters.

However, I think people are forgetting that they're gonna make millions off of the DLC regardless of whether or not a character's from Resident Evil or Pokemon or Golden Sun. This is the best selling Smash game, people don't exclusively play characters they already recognize, and it's possible that millions have already bought the pass.
 
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slrigeigdew

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Rapid fire opinions
  • I dont think Joker using a handgun for ONE of his moves makes characters that uses multiple guns any more or less likely to be added for DLC. If anything it just opened the discussion of those characters.
  • DLC Spirits dont deconfirm first party characters. Even if a series has tons of spirits there's still plenty of characters left unrepresented.
  • Out of the realistic and popular choices for DLC I've seen, there are few I can imagine getting the same love and care as Joker and Persona got in smash and
    I'm completely ok with that
In short, I don't think Joker's inclusion really changed or even broke the rules of DLC picks. It just made the debates of who should be allowed in smash more interesting.
 
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I don't understand why people think the roster is going to be purged when the next game comes around. Personally I imagine that it would be built on Ultimate, with the name being something along the lines of Smash Bros Century, with 100 playable characters at launch, with all the characters returning. This might be a bit of patterning too much, but since every Smash game since Brawl has added the same amount of playable characters to the base game that were not playable in the previous installment.

-Melee to Brawl (:charizard::diddy::ike::ivysaur::dedede::lucario::lucas::metaknight::olimar::pit::rob::snake::sonic::squirtle::toonlink::wario::wolf::zerosuitsamus:)
-Brawl to Smash 4 (:4bowserjr::4darkpit::4drmario::4duckhunt::4greninja::4littlemac::4lucina::4megaman::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4pacman::4palutena::4robinm::rosalina::4shulk::4villager::4wiifit:)
-Smash 4 to Ultimate (:ultchrom::ultdaisy::ultdarksamus::ulticeclimbers::ultincineroar::ultinkling::ultivysaur::ultisabelle::ultken::ultkrool::ultpichu::ultrichter::ultridley::ultsimon::ultsnake::ultsquirtle::ultwolf::ultyounglink:)

After the Fighter Pass, Ultimate will have 82 characters, and if we were to have the same amount of new characters added to the base roster of the next game, we would get to 100 playable characters.
 

Calamitas

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Unpopular opinion/rant. This isn't really an unpopular opinion thread. It's pretty much the Ultimate Social thread 2.0. Most of the unpopular opinions are over-looked, or they criticized for being, get this, unpopular. No wonder the OP made this the golden rule...

"The Golden Rule: NO CRITICIZING OTHER POSTERS' OPINIONS. This is NOT a debate thread. Do not post on here if you're going to attack/debate someone for their opinion. If you disagree with somebody and can't follow this rule, I will be upset, and that's probably the worst thing you can do on here (plus I'll totally tell on you and report). "

I mean, I'm guilty of this to, but I try to avoid doing so as much as possible, and will usually only respond if someone quotes me. Still, imagine coming to an unpopular opinion thread expecting to read "positive" unpopular opinions, ignoring the fact that the reason an opinion is unpopular is usually due to the negative nature of said opinion.

My favorite is when someone responds to an opinion just to tell someone that it's there opinion, or that others feel differently. Like, wow... A person posting an unpopular opinion in a thread about unpopular opinions, and it's just their opinion, and others have different opinions... How can this be? [Insert surprised Pickachu face]. It's like people forgot this WAS an unpopular opinion thread.

Also, I love the fact that everything is pretty much unpopular & popular.

Person 1: "Hey guys, unpopular opinion, I really dislike [insert character] and think he's lame."

Person 2: "Well guys, here's my unpopular opinion, I actually think [insert same character that Person 1 dislikes] is great, and one of the best additions to the game."

Person 3: "You guys realize that something can't be popular, and unpopular."
I have a feeling that that came up because of the reaction to my take on Joker Frompersonafive, and to that I say: You're welcome.

And to elaborate some more on said take:
Some people may actually have an interest in Persona after that fact/because of Smash. People who didn't know Pit before Brawl (you damn yungins) or myself with Marth and Roy in Melee...now I'm a avid Fire Emblem fan. I'm sure some Smash fans out there are now planning on playing Persona because of his inclusion.
Sure, I myself have some interest in his game myself now, and can imagine that I'd enjoy it. But it's not coming to Switch, I don't have a Playstation, don't want to get a Playstation, and have no interest in a Musou game for a series I never played. Joker Frompersonafive to me just comes off as rather a wasted opportunity in terms of new games.

But the poor maintenance supports the argument.
. . .Supports which argument?

This thread really should just be renamed 'Smash Ultimate Opinions thread' at this point because as many have already pointed out a lot of these 'unpopular' opinions are shared by 90% of the community.

"Third parties are more hype than Nintendo characters" might just be the most popular opinion on the entire forum at this point.

I think there's about four or five of us in total who'd rather just have Nintendo only DLC than more third parties and the rest shout us the **** down for being 'greedy' for personal preferences. If I'm considered unpleasant for wanting Captain Toad, Dixie Kong and Bandana Dee over say...Erdrick, Jill Valentine and whoever else is heavily rumoured right now then I guess I'm an unpleasant individual. But no more unpleasant than the usual retorts to wanting more Nintendo and less third party;

"It's not all about what YOU want. Others may want third parties"
Well, obviously. Obviously other people DO want third parties, but I don't think any of them are going to care about what I want either? You want Joker? Fill your boots. My utter indifference shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the character. Doesn't stop me wishing I could finally get the one character I've wanted for 20 years to debut as a fighter. That's longer than most users have been alive.

"Don't like it? Don't buy it!"
To which I say; absolutely.
I don't much care for Lucas, I didn't buy him in Sm4sh. I probably won't purchase Joker as he doesn't interest me, and depending on the rest of the fighters I may not get any of them either. Seems daft to spend cash on optional fighters you don't want, to me too.

"Third Parties are hype, there's no decent Nintendo characters left to include"
Absolutely subjective. Personally Captain Toad's inclusion would make me backflip down the street for finally getting a playable Toad in after two decades whilst a 'hype' third party like the now debunked Dante would do absolutely nothing for me. His inclusion would be less 'FINALLY EARNED HIS INCLUSION' and more 'Oh, so he's in now. How unexpected. Great.'
Also to tell people who have supported these Nintendo characters for years that their favourite characters aren't worthy enough to get in is kinda ****ty. Can we stop this?

Actually thinking about it, the rename for this should probably instead be the "Smash Community Rant thread".
Cheers, I'll drink to that.
 

Crescentium

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This is definitely more of a general opinion thread at this point, so **** it here goes:

Having 70+ characters is going to hurt/already hurting this game's competitive viability and, at the risk of following along with Leffen's opinion, the Smash community needs to be more passionate. Developing that many characters is already going to be a hard task as it is, but it's going to be even more difficult if the Smash community continues to be indifferent towards pushing the meta as well. I rarely see people lab stuff these days and trying to find new information about my main :ultvillager: is a crapshoot (and I've checked the Villy Discord, there's a few MU notes for a couple characters that's pretty handy, but that's about it). I really hope this changes with time and I'm just being impatient.

Along with all of that, the balancing act that the dev team's been putting on has been kinda lackluster as of late. But to be fair, it's ****ing hard to balance a game with 70+ characters in it. Regardless, patch 3.0.0 as well as how the dev team is (apparently) looking at Elite Smash for balance changes has left me pessimistic for the future. For me at the very least, it makes competitive smash feel like a joke right now (despite how crazy **** like:metaknight:, pre patch :4diddy:, :4cloud:, and :4bayonetta:having existed before).

Edit: And while I'm on the topic, I don't give a **** who makes it into Smash, newcomer or otherwise.
 
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Arthur97

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I have a feeling that that came up because of the reaction to my take on Joker Frompersonafive, and to that I say: You're welcome.

And to elaborate some more on said take:


Sure, I myself have some interest in his game myself now, and can imagine that I'd enjoy it. But it's not coming to Switch, I don't have a Playstation, don't want to get a Playstation, and have no interest in a Musou game for a series I never played. Joker Frompersonafive to me just comes off as rather a wasted opportunity in terms of new games.



. . .Supports which argument?



Cheers, I'll drink to that.
The argument that Joker literally crashed the servers due to his sheer demand.
 

Cutie Gwen

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This is definitely more of a general opinion thread at this point, so **** it here goes:

Having 70+ characters is going to hurt/already hurting this game's competitive viability and, at the risk of following along with Leffen's opinion, the Smash community needs to be more passionate. Developing that many characters is already going to be a hard task as it is, but it's going to be even more difficult if the Smash community continues to be indifferent towards pushing the meta as well. I rarely see people lab stuff these days and trying to find new information about my main :ultvillager: is a crapshoot (and I've checked the Villy Discord, there's a few MU notes for a couple characters that's pretty handy, but that's about it). I really hope this changes with time and I'm just being impatient.

Along with all of that, the balancing act that the dev team's been putting on has been kinda lackluster as of late. But to be fair, it's ****ing hard to balance a game with 70+ characters in it. Regardless, patch 3.0.0 as well as how the dev team is (apparently) looking at Elite Smash for balance changes has left me pessimistic for the future. For me at the very least, it makes competitive smash feel like a joke right now (despite how crazy **** like:metaknight:, pre patch :4diddy:, :4cloud:, and :4bayonetta:having existed before).

Edit: And while I'm on the topic, I don't give a **** who makes it into Smash, newcomer or otherwise.
The only real thing I can argue from what I remember of Leffen's post about stopping Ultimate was that he wanted a solo main which quite frankly doesn't really exist in most fighting games so don't worry you don't sound like an asshole
 
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A Minecraft stage with breakable blocks and tiles would do a better job at repping Minecraft then Steve as a fighter.
Although, I think some people would like it this way :D

I'm with the opinion that this thread should be renamed as "Smash Ultimate Opinions!"
 
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slrigeigdew

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Some more rapid fire just cuz I feel like it:

-It's weird hearing pros, especially Melee players, asking for HUGE buffs and nerfs when the meta is barely developed and no single character is Bayonetta tier broken (yet). You'd think they'd be the first to say "Just grind harder" or something like that but I guess it's easier to slap a nerf and buff than to learn the matchups and adapt to different playstyles.


-Balancing around Elite Smash is silly but so is the idea of basing it off tournament results for multiple reasons. Balancing around player feedback would be the most direct but unreliable for several reasons. So balancing around Elite Smash for now is the lesser of the 3 evils.


- I'd rather all of the DLC stages be banned and unique (like Mementos!) than legal and generic. It's sad that we won't hear any of their awesome music during sets but creative liberty trumps competitive balance imo. (Watch the next stage come out and it's just a reskin of battlefield lol)

- Imagine Sakurai and his team working to the brink of exhaustion not only making everyone's main competitively viable but also making 3 alternate versions of every stage to remove hazards and act like BF/FD just for some people to go "Nintendo doesn't care about us!". I hope the next Smash game keeps the hazards toggle but scrap the omega/BF forms to focus on new stages.

Bit more controversial this time but I imagine these aren't really unpopular for casuals (such as myself).
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Well, yeah, that's the theory. In practice first place is the easiest place to be in for a multitude of other, non-blue-shell-related reasons and the blue shell is an attempted bandaid fix that punishes skill and doesn't equalize anything.
No, not a theory. A proven fact. That becomes clearer the more you study MK's design.

Obviously, the Blue Shell is a catchup mechanic. Being a racing game, players are meant to gun for the first place, stay in it and finish in it. Thing is that first place is actually one of the least interesting places to be in, and driving in it uncontested for the rest of the race way ahead of the pack is not fun at all. It is also not fun to be in dead last and having no way to prevent the players in the lead from getting farther away. That makes the race become less interesting for everyone involved if this happened; hence why the the blue shell was designed. The shell creates problems of its own, which is why players in the lead can never be allowed to spawn them and it's only obtainable by those in the back can get it. The blast radius is designed so that the explosion takes the player in second if he/she is neck to neck with the first place; forcing them to slow down or swerve around it, which in turn may allow players behind to catch up. A close game makes the race much more interesting.

Of course, getting hit seconds before the finish line can ruin you which sucks for people who are committed to mastery of the game and want their superior skills to be acknowledged. The blue shell doesn't always allow a player with the better skills to win, but this is not much a big problem as people make it out to be even at a tournament level if the player has some way to counter the randomness. A bad draw in a Poker game may handicap you but it doesn't guarantee your loss. For these most skilled players, the designers made the blue shell avoidable in certain circumstances that casuals tend to overlook. You can play around it by doing the smart thing and preserve certain items like the Star, Boo, Mushroom, or the Horn; if you lack items to assist you, can brake so that second and/or third place go down with you, or you can intentionally let someone pass you at the right time so that the Shell targets them instead. If you are a good player, you can still have some agency and mitigate the danger of the a Blue Shell somewhat. Recent iterations like MK 8 have actually improved counterplay by adding double items and tools like the Horn, which shows that the devs have given tournament play some considerations.

Granted, there are still going to be times where a late game blue shell is going to rain on your parade and make you want to curse to the heavens. Even if it doesn't feel like it at times, that item makes it for tighter and more enjoyable games. Which is why I called it "a necessary evil".

Unhealthy? Boring? You mean like the way of SSB4, which many said was more balanced than previous titles? And now we have the same being said here, but as time goes on, we'll see who's viable and who isn't. A balanced game provides variety, so you have a very strange view of what constitutes as "unhealthy" and "boring".

I said 45:55 is realistic. I never suggested or implied that it was easy, but I would have to say fewer characters or a lot more development would certainly help reach that goal. Chess and checkers lack particular Nintendo characters I'd like to play as, and while I do like a game of checkers, it's not a game I'd pursue professionally.
For all its imbalances, Smash 4 was still a fun game. True, there were elements that needed to be fined tuned like Bayonetta, but there was still enough variety in the game.
You call my views of what is boring and unhealthy 'strange', yet there is irony in your statement when on your second paragraph you say that fewer characters would help achieve that goal. You don't see that that actually kills variety?
Devs should prevent to balance a game where every class, etc. feels the same and has equal opportunities against each other. Perfectly balanced? Yeah. Is it fun? Probably not.

Going to back to having fewer characters, you could do that and indirectly buff some fighters as a result. Take Dedede for instance, his matchup spread suggests that he has trouble with characters who heavily rely on disjoints and projectiles. We could give him some buffs like increasing his air speed and such, but unfavorable matchups for him will still exist. So you could help him by removing those bad matchups from the game; by cutting Megaman, Villager, the Links, Marth, Ike, Cloud, Wolf, Pacman, Samus, etc. you indirectly benefit Dedede. That's a legit way to balance the game. But also an awful one, because now we took away a bunch of choices from the players.

You also suggest investing more development time, but the best way check the viability from the assets is to release your game and collect data from millions of players across the world. You can make a game with a bunch of characters with strengths and trade offs, and have playtesters try them but the meta truly begins to evolve when the consumers start playing your game.
I feel that you think that only tournament play should be taken into consideration, but the devs have to take into account all matchups at ALL the skill levels. Some characters that are perceived as great may have a low win rate online, but stats like those may be misleading. A character like Fox who fares amazingly at high level play may even have a lower win rate in lower levels of play than, say, K. Rool. And characters who are perceived as well balanced may be purposely avoided because they are not seen as fun to play as, which is why to have to take feedback and pick rate into consideration.

While you may claim how time will tell us who isn't viable and who isn't, the perception of balance is important as well, probably more than balance itself. As of now, nobody is perceiving a situation where we have a Melee Fox, Brawl MK or Smash 4 Bayonetta in our hands (yet), which is a positive outlook. And more importantly, this game is only 6 months old, so the meta is STILL developing so your claims are kinda pointless as of now. There are still several balance patches scheduled to come in the near future. Perceived weak characters will (hopefully) be buffed and if some strong element needs to be nerfed, they might do so. Just me, but it's better if we get more buffs than nerfs in the future.

You may not thought that it was easy, but I feel that the complexity of balance can't be understated.

Games should be celebrated for having a plethora of options to choose from even if some imbalances exist. Those imbalances may actually make the game more exciting to watch. Take the set of Nairo vs Light at Collision as an example, where they used Ganondorf and Fox respectively. The match was fun to watch and Nairo's victory was made more satisfying with the fact that he used a character that is generally perceived to have a disadvantageous matchup against Fox and is generally considered to be lower tier than him. If both characters were perfectly balanced and had equal chances of winning, people would have shifted from being "Wow, Nairo's Ganon vs Light's Fox? Such a risky pick with the stakes being high, so who knows how this will end up" to be like "Oh, it's Ganon vs Fox. Good luck to whoever wins".

As for Metroid pity parties, I'm just going to continue complaining. After all, casuals complain and end up getting what they want. "Projectiles are too good! Punish all characters whose mechanics are centered around projectiles!" "Nerf PK Fire! The game is four months old, but I still can't escape!" "Nerf Ness' d-smash! Yes, he's been gimped for years, but how dare he get that same opportunity as everyone else!" "Little Mac is too strong! Nerf his recovery!" Unless you use a popular character, a la Bayo and Cloud.
Mediocre people do nothing but complain and stunt their own growth. Self victimization is a disease. That's why I have little empathy for people who throw pity party at themselves. Don't understand why you would do something as unflattering as follow the example of whiny casuals rather than try to become a better version of yourself. And I also thought you were going to quit playing anyways, so I don't see why you care this much now.

-Balancing around Elite Smash is silly but so is the idea of basing it off tournament results for multiple reasons. Balancing around player feedback would be the most direct but unreliable for several reasons. So balancing around Elite Smash for now is the lesser of the 3 evils.
Feedback should be taken from all of those source you mentioned, as well as data from tournaments and online play, but good judgement needs to be exercised as well.
 
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Crystanium

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Depends on what you define "fun" as, since that is subjective. I also said fewer characters or more development time, but you only focused on the former part. This leads me to believe that I cannot have an honest discussion with you, so nothing more needs to be said.
 
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