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Unpopular Nintendo Opinions (non-Smash; BE CIVIL)

Champion of Hyrule

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Mostly reposting from another thread:

Super Paper Mario didn't need to be a Mario game, and it shouldn't have been one either.

While I don't agree with the overcorrective restrictions imposed on the Paper Mario series (and possibly the entire franchise's spin-off material) since Sticker Star, I agree with WHY they did it: they felt that Super Paper Mario was too far removed from the Mario universe.

I loved Super Paper Mario's story at first, initially agreeing with the sentiment that it was the best story ever told in the Mario franchise. But looking at the game again, Super Paper Mario feels like it never should have been part of the Mario franchise to begin with. The Mario elements and even characters, IMO, feel tacked on to a story about multiversal hopping and of a villain whose loss of his love left him with nothing left to live for. The story as a whole feels like something that doesn't take place in the Mario universe, and the fact that it literally doesn't take place in the Mario universe feels like it proves my point.

While the post-SPM Paper Mario games feel like they hew too closely to mainline Mario elements, Super Paper Mario goes too far in the other direction. I have a hypothesis that if Super Paper Mario was its own IP, Miyamoto would not have such a negative reaction to its story and would not have convinced Nintendo to impose those mandates on the franchise. In that alt timeline, we could have stuck with the balanced approach of the first two Paper Mario games.
As much as I love super paper mario and I’m glad that it did end up being a mario game (besides the fact that it ended up basically being a catalyst for the mario mandate stuff) it really didn’t need to be one
 

Opossum

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Okay here's a big one...

Nintendo does a fine enough job at keeping IPs alive. Most of the IPs that people clamor for simply did not make money or had negative receptions in their latest entry. I'd love new a new Star Fox, Golden Sun, Punch Out!!, etc, but I understand why those franchises are dormant.

I also think Nintendo is regularly bringing old IPs/franchises back, but its rarely acknowledged. Just recently, we got the return of Metroid, Advance Wars (kinda), Famicon Detective Club, Pokemon Mystery Dunegeon, Pokemon Snap, Mario Strikers, etc. That should be celebrated.

I'm also of the opinion that Nintendo putting older titles on Virtual Console or Nintendo Switch Online is them being invested in the IP. Putting those games on those services still takes time and money and it's only done if its deemed profitable. If they didn't care about an IP, it just wouldn't be included. There are a fair amount of IPs that Nintendo just doesn't give a **** about like Doshin the Giant or Joy Mech Fight where the most they can hope for is a cameo in Smash.



I agree with most of these though I have an honest question.

If Nintendo Switch online offered a games only bundle where for 100 bucks or so, you gained permanent ownership over every NES, SNES ,or N64 game they include with the sevice, would you buy it?


Also, lol imagining how certain parties would react to the magypsies is entertaining to say the least.
Honestly I'd say that's a pretty good price. Between the three systems I think there is, actually, over 100 games on it, so it comes out to less than one dollar per game which is pretty nice, especially since its ownership and not renting.

Buying them individually would still be my ideal (like I'd love to finally play Sin & Punishment but I really don't want pay the current price, and I can't emulate N64 stuff currently), but I'd like this more than the current offering.
 
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Quillion

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No, I am literally talking about games that either don't have stories, or don't treat stories as any kind of priority.
Meh, a linear game that keeps the player overfocused on its singular goal, story or not, will feel... archaic at best. There's only so much you can do going down a straight line; a hallway can certainly be every bit as repetitive as linear game fans claim open world games to be.

Even a linear game as early as SMB1 had its secret coin heavens and underground shortcuts.

To me, an imaginative world and setting is just or if not as important as a plot. I love getting involved with lore and finding lore in game to b a huge thing. This can be accomplished in linear games but, when in an open-world, it becomes harder so finding that lore becomes more difficult. Some open world games that what some deem as being “unimaginative” due to repeated landscapes and what not, to me, is imaginative. I love looking at the expanse. This is one reason why Wind Waker was my most favorite Zelda game before BoTW.
I think you've hit upon the key to good video game storytelling, and that applies to linear games, open world games, and everywhere in between on that spectrum. I believe the key to good video game storytelling is letting the player naturally seek out or stumble upon the narrative elements rather than pause the gameplay to serve it to them.

There's a reason why there was a lot of discussion regarding RDR2's open world and conventional narrative mixing poorly, while people continue to hail the Half-Life series as a fantastic example of a linear game avoiding the feeling of linearity as it lets you experience the story through gameplay rather than serving you a lot of exposition and action alike through cutscenes.

It's the reason why prefer EarthBound to Mother 3 despite feeling the latter has better combat and a better conventional story. Many Mother fans love EarthBound mainly for its quirky atmosphere and characters, but IMO, what really ties that game together is how EarthBound doesn't really force its story upon the player for the most part, just letting them seek out the narrative elements. Mother 3, on the other hand, kinda does force the story on the player. They're both linear games, but EarthBound just balances linearity and interactivity a lot better to me.

If you want to discuss that topic further, you can do so on this other thread so as not to dominate this one.

On the other hand, like I said earlier, both a hallway and a flat field are inherently repetitive and unimaginative. It's how you use it that counts.

I’ve been called a corporate shill for having this mindset in other gaming sites and im perfectly fine with that.
You know, I think you've convinced me that it's totally fine to be a corporate sheep or hipster as long as you accept it, and that doesn't just apply to the linearity/open world debate. It's when either side denies that they are mainstream/anti-mainstream and/or forces their views upon others that it becomes a problem.

Honestly I'd say that's a pretty good price. Between the three systems I think there is, actually, over 100 games on it, so it comes out to less than one dollar per game which is pretty nice, especially since its ownership and not renting.

Buying them individually would still be my ideal (like I'd love to finally play Sin & Punishment but I really don't want pay the current price, and I can't emulate N64 stuff currently), but I'd like this more than the current offering.
I think it could work if Nintendo could only stop their awful drip-feed policy with their legacy titles, especially when they wipe the slate clean and start the process over with every console.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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Meh, a linear game that keeps the player overfocused on its singular goal, story or not, will feel... archaic at best. There's only so much you can do going down a straight line; a hallway can certainly be every bit as repetitive as linear game fans claim open world games to be.
I don't think you get it, I don't dislike open world games for being repetitive, I dislike that they aren't repetitive. That they aren't letting you perfect just one skill.
 

Opossum

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I think it could work if Nintendo could only stop their awful drip-feed policy with their legacy titles, especially when they wipe the slate clean and start the process over with every console.
Definitely agreed there. It's especially egregious that The Mysterious Murasame Castle is still locked to the 3DS VC internationally. There's no reason for that game not to be on English NSO at this point.

Even more egregious is that Mach Rider, of all games, is still a no-show, and that one doesn't even have the excuse of a strange localization history.
 

Quillion

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I don't think you get it, I don't dislike open world games for being repetitive, I dislike that they aren't repetitive. That they aren't letting you perfect just one skill.
Understandable; I've been thinking for a while now that modern open world games are trying to be every genre at once (even ones that don't make sense like interactive movies) in an effort to reach the widest audiences possible, and therefore failing to be any of those genres.

Still though, I'm sure non-RPG open world games (dying breed, I know) let you perfect a very small set of skills over trying to stuff a game with mechanics in a misguided attempt to provide variety.

And then there are linear games like Zelda: Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword that attempt to give you a lot of tools, yet their sheer number inherently forces at least some of them to be dropped by the wayside, at best making you use them in simplistic, token ways that waste their potential.
 

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I think it could work if Nintendo could only stop their awful drip-feed policy with their legacy titles, especially when they wipe the slate clean and start the process over with every console.
Yeah, this is really my biggest complaint with NSO.

I actually love having access to a huge Netflix like catalogue, but aside from N64 games there's no rhyme or reason when they come out.

Like... we get a N64 game once a month. Okay. A little slow but that's still nice. It's something to get excited for. Something we can expect.

What about the NES, SNES and Genesis games? I understand that they got most if the heavy hitters already, but there are still a lot left, and there's no real schedule.

Its frustrating.


My opinion of NSO would also improve immensely if the service was kept on future consoles. If they continued to update the available titles and tied it to your Nintendo account, that would be fantastic. I'd love that immensely.
 
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Quillion

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New Super Mario Bros. > Mario Maker

Not saying the former can't have some improvements, but professionalism > Sturgeon's Law amateurs with limited tools.

Yes, I know that some creators on Mario Maker are professional game developers, but still, they can only do so much with limited tools.
 

UserKev

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New Super Mario Bros. > Mario Maker

Not saying the former can't have some improvements, but professionalism > Sturgeon's Law amateurs with limited tools.

Yes, I know that some creators on Mario Maker are professional game developers, but still, they can only do so much with limited tools.
I disagree. Super Mario Maker 3 still has neat potential that it can bring a SMB2 USA theme creator. Subcon levels would be less difficult to navigate. And its enemies allows for fun puzzling and creatively manageable. Adding, Super Mario Maker 3 would have room for the Super Mario Advance 4 theme of SMB3, which SMB2 has a more up to date aesthetic in fans may ask for. And SMB2 possibly even receiving a modern look akin to New Super Mario Bros.

This isn't to say a New Super Mario Bros. couldn't be special, but a SMM3 definitely has more to offer.
 

Opossum

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My unpopular opinion is that when they announced the Mystery Mushroom wouldn't return, I completely lost interest in ever getting Super Mario Maker 2 lol.
 

Quillion

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I disagree. Super Mario Maker 3 still has neat potential that it can bring a SMB2 USA theme creator. Subcon levels would be less difficult to navigate. And its enemies allows for fun puzzling and creatively manageable. Adding, Super Mario Maker 3 would have room for the Super Mario Advance 4 theme of SMB3, which SMB2 has a more up to date aesthetic in fans may ask for. And SMB2 possibly even receiving a modern look akin to New Super Mario Bros.

This isn't to say a New Super Mario Bros. couldn't be special, but a SMM3 definitely has more to offer.
I guess you can say Mario Maker has more potential for the future to be sure. But as of yet, SMM has a long way to go before it matches NSMB in fun factor.

Also, I think NSMB has untapped potential as a niche that "bridges" the spin-offs with the main series. I think we should be able to unlock all the characters playable in the spin-offs in an NSMB game. Just do that at bare minimum and I'll happily get back into that series.
 

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Not sure if this is unpopular but... New Super Mario Bros games are super good. The original is amazing.

The others aren't groundbreaking but not every game has to be. A finely crafted adventure you've seen before is still a finely crafted adventure.
 

Quillion

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Not sure if this is unpopular but... New Super Mario Bros games are super good. The original is amazing.

The others aren't groundbreaking but not every game has to be. A finely crafted adventure you've seen before is still a finely crafted adventure.
Agreed. But I still think they have a lot of room for improvement. They don't need to turn it into a Metroidvania or exclusively vertical Ice Climber-like game, but they need to experiment with their established environment tropes more. Also, a city world like New Donk would be fantastic in 2D.

And there's also my suggestion for the next NSMB game to have a "spin-off" cast of playable characters.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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The actual level designs of the NSMB games are all very good, and the faster paced levels of New Super Luigi Bros are an underrated evolution of the core concepts of 2D Mario.

Everything else about the games feel pretty blah, though.
 

Quillion

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I just realized: Super Paper Mario is the other, equally bad extreme not only from Sticker Star-on Paper Mario, but also New Super Mario Bros.
 

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Not sure if this is unpopular but... New Super Mario Bros games are super good. The original is amazing.

The others aren't groundbreaking but not every game has to be. A finely crafted adventure you've seen before is still a finely crafted adventure.
Honestly New Super Mario Bros. Wii is my second favorite 2D Mario game lol. Right behind Super Mario Bros. 3.
 

Oddball

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Mario being a silent Protagonist in the Paper Mario series works for me due to the unusual style it uses, but it feels weird that Mario doesn't talk in the Mario and Luigi RPGs considering how quick Mario is to shout his catchphrases in all his other games.

Having Silent Protagonists Mario and Luigi meet silent protagonist Paper Mario was just wasted potential.
 

Quillion

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Oh I know, the stories in Pokémon games are getting a tad gatekeepery
That's not an unpopular opinion. Also, video games in general will have no choice but to rely on handholding and railroading as long as they rely on conventional movie-like storytelling.

NSMB DS and NSMB Wii are very novel and exciting games when they came out. It's just 2 and U when it began to feel redundant.
I think 2 and U have better level design though, even if the former is a bit too easy.

Mario being a silent Protagonist in the Paper Mario series works for me due to the unusual style it uses, but it feels weird that Mario doesn't talk in the Mario and Luigi RPGs considering how quick Mario is to shout his catchphrases in all his other games.

Having Silent Protagonists Mario and Luigi meet silent protagonist Paper Mario was just wasted potential.
TBH, Luigi speaking for the Bros. in M&L would make the most sense.
 

fogbadge

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That's not an unpopular opinion. Also, video games in general will have no choice but to rely on handholding and railroading as long as they rely on conventional movie-like storytelling.
really? ive never seen anybody else make the same complaint, theyre usually complaining about other things
 
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Quillion

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really? ive never seen anybody else make the same complaint, theyre usually complaining about other things
You mostly see it in the form of "it's linear so it sucks". And from my experience, most people don't unilaterally hate linearity, just the forms of linearity that force it on the player.
 

fogbadge

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You mostly see it in the form of "it's linear so it sucks". And from my experience, most people don't unilaterally hate linearity, just the forms of linearity that force it on the player.
oh i didnt mean linearity im with both that and openness. i was meaning the actual story and dialogue like how in the last two gens youre told you want to take part in the events where as in the past its more suggested you check it out.
 

Quillion

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oh i didnt mean linearity im with both that and openness. i was meaning the actual story and dialogue like how in the last two gens youre told you want to take part in the events where as in the past its more suggested you check it out.
I get what you mean, but still:

Also, video games in general will have no choice but to rely on handholding and railroading as long as they rely on conventional movie-like storytelling.
 

Oracle Link

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Champion Link sucks! Link was always Defined by atleast his Clothing i mean i get it Customization but what stopped them to give other Costumes his iconic Hat? And i also Knew the outfit has no staying power as they already use another one in the sequel!
Other unpopular opinions on Link are:
Link As a Full Adfult with Beard would look Terrible same with almost all of the Gruff Beta Designs for BOTW Heck i would rather see The "clown Link" than those other Monstrosities! (I guess i am Lucky that it was only a Outfit Change because other than that BOTW 2 Link looks fine!)
I am Fine with TP Link tho the only Problem that game had Artstylewise was the dull colour Palette and the "Orcs and other generic Mosters Problem" Aka that the Enemys looked bland as Heck!
 

Quillion

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Champion Link sucks! Link was always Defined by atleast his Clothing i mean i get it Customization but what stopped them to give other Costumes his iconic Hat? And i also Knew the outfit has no staying power as they already use another one in the sequel!
Other unpopular opinions on Link are:
Link As a Full Adfult with Beard would look Terrible same with almost all of the Gruff Beta Designs for BOTW Heck i would rather see The "clown Link" than those other Monstrosities! (I guess i am Lucky that it was only a Outfit Change because other than that BOTW 2 Link looks fine!)
I am Fine with TP Link tho the only Problem that game had Artstylewise was the dull colour Palette and the "Orcs and other generic Mosters Problem" Aka that the Enemys looked bland as Heck!
We really should have been able to at least dye the Champion's Tunic. Right now, I feel forced to use a green-dyed Wild Cap and Hylian Tunic. That said, if you have a computer that can run Cemu, you should rip BotW and play it there.
----
Anyway, I feel like much of the commonly-stated flaws of several Zelda games are actually flaws of gaming in general around that time period.
  • OoT and MM's archaic aspects were due to 3D game design being in infancy.
  • TP and SS were made during a time when linear/story-driven games were trying to be movies.
  • BotW has a lot of copy-paste content like a lot of open world games at that time.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Chibi-Robo: Zip Lash gets a bad rap.

It isn't great, but its serviceable. It's not even the worst Chibi Robo game.

Photo Finder is infinitely worse. It insults you for it's bad game design.
 

Diddy Kong

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Skyward Sword was a great Zelda game, that even though it was messy at points , it's still undefeated in terms of story, variations in items and their usage and upgradability throughout the game, dungeons and boss battles. It's not exactly a graphical artwork as Wind Waker or Twilight Princess where, but it had many things I wish Breath of the Wild had.

Speaking of Zelda, there's objectively no "best Zelda" as all games take a drastically different approach ever since Ocarina of Time. So a "best Zelda" all comes down to taste, as the Zelda games differentiated a lot ever since OoT, which is both a good and a bad thing.

Retro Studios should've been more ambitious with Donkey Kong and shouldn't take so many different projects and instead just master one IP they could make steady releases for.

In general, Donkey Kong as an IP has never been shown the right attention and respect. Even in the days of Rare, it was clear they prioritized their own projects over Donkey Kong after DKC2, sure DKC3 and DK64 where great games but they lack the polish and ambition of the first two platform games. Shameful to see Retro follow their footsteps. Making PAON the only developer who was ever fully committed to the series. This is also mainly the fault of Nintendo and not taking things in hand themselves as soon as they could.

I wish many more Nintendo IPs got the honest but simply approach the Kirby series have. Steady releases for a steady audience with a main development team. Mario, Zelda and Pokemon got this too but it's more understandable with these as they're huge series. But the Kirby approach should really be an end goal for Nintendo's lesser known yet popular series.
 

Wario Wario Wario

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The fairies were the worst Puzzle League aesthetic - Yoshi, Pokémon, and the Y2K-style DS aesthetic are all way more pleasing to me, and a new Panel de Pon should certainly be localised with a different cast. Splatoon would fit especially well.
 
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Skyward Sword was a great Zelda game, that even though it was messy at points , it's still undefeated in terms of story, variations in items and their usage and upgradability throughout the game, dungeons and boss battles. It's not exactly a graphical artwork as Wind Waker or Twilight Princess where, but it had many things I wish Breath of the Wild had.

Speaking of Zelda, there's objectively no "best Zelda" as all games take a drastically different approach ever since Ocarina of Time. So a "best Zelda" all comes down to taste, as the Zelda games differentiated a lot ever since OoT, which is both a good and a bad thing.

Retro Studios should've been more ambitious with Donkey Kong and shouldn't take so many different projects and instead just master one IP they could make steady releases for.

In general, Donkey Kong as an IP has never been shown the right attention and respect. Even in the days of Rare, it was clear they prioritized their own projects over Donkey Kong after DKC2, sure DKC3 and DK64 where great games but they lack the polish and ambition of the first two platform games. Shameful to see Retro follow their footsteps. Making PAON the only developer who was ever fully committed to the series. This is also mainly the fault of Nintendo and not taking things in hand themselves as soon as they could.

I wish many more Nintendo IPs got the honest but simply approach the Kirby series have. Steady releases for a steady audience with a main development team. Mario, Zelda and Pokemon got this too but it's more understandable with these as they're huge series. But the Kirby approach should really be an end goal for Nintendo's lesser known yet popular series.
I think a large part of it is that while a lot of Nintendo franchises have had consistent development teams, Donkey Kong has changed hands so many times. That, in turn, leads to each team basically starting from scratch so they can find their footing, and for one reason or another they tend to not stick to the series for long.

Like, Super Mario games and the Zelda games have their own dedicated in-house Nintendo teams. Splatoon and Animal Crossing share a development team that basically trades off between titles, letting them both be released at a nice pace. The Mario Kart team also did ARMS but is otherwise a dedicated Mario Kart team. Monolith Soft consistently makes new Xenoblade games when they're not providing assistance as hired hands for other Nintendo projects. HAL Labs can consistently make Kirby games because those and the BOXBOY games are basically all they make. Intelligent Systems consistently makes not only Fire Emblem games, but also Paper Mario and WarioWare titles, albeit those two at a slower pace than their main bread and butter. Next Level Games has also been, in my opinion, knocking it out of the park with Luigi's Mansion. And Pokémon is basically its own self-sustaining machine.

Now granted, I don't think Retro has any ill will toward the series whatsoever. If they did, it would likely show in the finished products, but DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze definitely had passion poured into them. They've just been busy with other projects for a long while now (their presumably cancelled at this point New IP, and now Metroid Prime 4). And honestly I don't fault them for focusing on Prime 4, since they were the developers of the entire mainline Prime series.

Donkey Kong has changed hands...a lot. Started in the arcade with the originals done by Nintendo in-house, then Rare for the Country series and 64, then (I think) back to in-house Nintendo for Jungle Beat, then Paon for Jungle Climber and King of Swing, until finally going to Retro for the newer Country games. This could go one of two ways. They could have Retro make another new DK game once Prime 4 is done, further cementing Retro as their go-to for Donkey Kong, or have it continue to change hands and be caught in a cycle of not knowing what to do next. The latter was the unfortunate fate of F-Zero and Star Fox, with Miyamoto even saying that outsourced titles like Star Fox Adventures and Assault, as well as F-Zero GX, were internally recognized as failures and cautionary tales for outsourcing. And since then we've not gotten a new F-Zero game in 18 years (19 if you don't count the Japan-only Climax) and the only truly new Star Fox game, Zero, is regarded as the most maligned entry in the franchise.

However, if Retro returns to it, it could end up, instead, like 2D Metroid, which seemingly has a very bright future after Mercury Steam released Samus Returns and Dread did very well.
 
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