The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

[Infinity Sorcerer]

Maybe it's because I aren't familiarizated with the perspective of the angloparlant side of the internet but I never feeled that fogbadge comments where sexists. Anyway it's true that the topic should die already.

 

[fogbadge]

It has been said a lot around these parts, that's for sure. Claiming characters as Zero Suit Samus or Bayonetta got in cause of "sex appeal", or implied because Sakurai fancied them. But this was never true of course. People where particularly bitter about their inclusion because Zero Suit Samus was the Metroid newcomer in Brawl whom many thought should've been Ridley instead (I find her inclusion more logical, especially in hindsight, Ridley's inclusion in Smash feels very forced and awkward). Bayonetta was the "ballot winner" of Smash 4, and the last DLC character of 4, and hugely overpowered in the metagame and got huge flack for that. Her game of origin apparently has sexual themes going on too. And of course Mytrha and Pyra, characters where the case could actually have been made for, but their designs are way less "fan service" based in Smash than Xenoblade. They where also as much of a main character in Xenoblade 2 as Rex was, maybe moreso. Their inclusion also received some backlash, hence all these many comments about Sakurai and him wanting these characters in cause of sex appeal. Cause that's what many gamers first see. I don't think it's as much the reason they got in, they're popular characters by themselves. But the sex appeal thing is a trend in gaming and media in general for a reason.

well in my case I missed their popularity despite being in the middle of the fandoms. Every time pythra was brought up it was people saying how much they didn’t like their designs. And with bayo I never once saw anyone say they liked her games until after she came into smash. Only time I ever heard anyone talk about her was them saying she was just Dante. So it’s hard not to think sakurai isn’t being biased to some degree as a result. I may be way off the mark with my thinking but it didn’t come from no where

 

[Quillion]

Zero Suit haters have such weird assumptions of the undersuit.

• They say it's made of latex, an admittedly uncomfortable material, based on how shiny it is. But IRL cosplay Zero Suits look even shinier if anything (here's one sold by Walmart), and most of those are made of spandex/lycra/elastane. I think going with the spandex interpretation works a lot more. On a related note, people seem to be fine with Ann Takamaki's Panther outfit in Persona 5, despite it explicitly being made of latex.
• They say it needs to look more protective as some kind of "last resort" option. This despite that Samus explicitly doesn't want to get caught in combat in the Zero Suit and would rather wear her armor all the time in that situation. Also, actual astronaut spacesuits, have skintight suits underneath to allow for greater mobility.
• They say that Samus looks generically skinny in the Zero Suit, as if having muscular Samus in the Zero Suit is an impossibility somehow.

Also, I'll repost my thoughts on changing the design and the "sci-fi skintight suit" trope as a whole again:

TBH, I think the whole "future=skintight suit" trope is questionable as a whole, even outside of Metroid. I know it's based off the fact that spandex/lycra/elastane/whatever is a recent invention, but it's clearly continuing on for pure fanservice (for men and women alike) since it's clear spandex doesn't really work for casual wear or even everyday work wear. Most spandex nowadays is just partially integrated into non-skintight wear to enhance comfort without denying blood and air circulation.

That said, I don't think the Zero Suit needs much change to actually look good. Putting aside the heels needing to go, the only things I would change about it are to make it look less shiny (which itself would tone the fetish appeal immensely) and to make it look like it functions like an actual astronaut undersuit. Those things actually are either close-fitting or skintight; they just have tubing throughout to circulate coolant of some kind, so all the Zero Suit needs to add are little lines running throughout that show that the Zero Suit serves as advanced all-climate thermoregulation. Fun fact: the undersuit for the Russian-made astronaut suit is actually blue.

They could also stand to make the Zero Suit have a slight amount of bag to it so Samus doesn't look naked. But then again...

• Drawing clothes on a still 2D image in a way that obeys physics is a pain (see comments on this video).
• Animating clothes according to physics in 2D is a big pain.
• Animating clothes according to physics in 3D is a bigger pain.
• And dynamically animating clothes according to physics in 3D in an interactive medium is the BIGGEST pain.

So yeah, I'll settle for less shiny Zero Suit with coolant circulation lines while still making her look naked.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Part of the charm of Samus Aran as a videogame character is the "whoa that's a woman!?" factor. So her looking most feminine underneath that armor is somehow smart marketing for the character, especially around the time of Samus' origins. It's also the reason they got ZSS into Smash I feel. Metroid is more about Samus than anything else. Samus also made quite a few appearances in her Zero Suit around the time of Brawl, and Samus showing more and more skin after you clear the Metroid games in faster time was a literal award always.

However, I doubt Samus would buy her Zero Suits at Walmart. Think they get supplied to her by the Federation.

 

[fogbadge]

Part of the charm of Samus Aran as a videogame character is the "whoa that's a woman!?" factor. So her looking most feminine underneath that armor is somehow smart marketing for the character, especially around the time of Samus' origins. It's also the reason they got ZSS into Smash I feel. Metroid is more about Samus than anything else. Samus also made quite a few appearances in her Zero Suit around the time of Brawl, and Samus showing more and more skin after you clear the Metroid games in faster time was a literal award always.

However, I doubt Samus would buy her Zero Suits at Walmart. Think they get supplied to her by the Federation.

I thought samus was a robot at first

there was also a very brief period when I thought Kirby was called fox McCloud

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I thought samus was a robot at first

there was also a very brief period when I thought Kirby was called fox McCloud

I think you just need to get into fandoms more and learn about things.

You'd have a lot less issues like last page if you didn't make assumptions.






Anywho, for a hot take... having sexual designs is fine as long as the writing treats the character as an individual and not just eye candy or waifu bait. Some people say that a character has to be a sexual character to have a sexual design. I disagree. People can wear "sexy" clothing while still being chaste and clothing shouldn't define characters like that. It's as silly as making all the female villains dominatrixes.

As for the four discussed characters...

I think Pyra and Mythra are fine because they have great arcs and fascinating characterization. The reason there is two personalities there is heart breaking.

Bayonetta owns her sexuality and is so over the top it just becomes awesome.

And Samus, well she's one of my favorite characters of all time.

These characters are a lot more than just TnA. People love them for more than TnA.

 

[Quillion]

However, I doubt Samus would buy her Zero Suits at Walmart. Think they get supplied to her by the Federation.

I thought the Zero Suit was just something the Chozo threw together to make up for Samus's lack of feathers.

Anywho, for a hot take... having sexual designs is fine as long as the writing treats the character as an individual and not just eye candy or waifu bait. Some people say that a character has to be a sexual character to have a sexual design. I disagree. People can wear "sexy" clothing while still being chaste and clothing shouldn't define characters like that. It's as silly as making all the female villains dominatrixes.

Eh, tbf FE Fates does try its damndest to characterize the whole party as people, but that doesn't stop the fanservice from being distracting and situation-inappropriate.

Conpensating with extremes doesn't work in most cases after all.

 

[Infinity Sorcerer]

I thought the Zero Suit was just something the Chozo threw together to make up for Samus's lack of feathers.

50/50, the Chozos did the suit but it was a complement of the Power Suit, allowing her to put the armor easier.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Eh, tbf FE Fates does try its damndest to characterize the whole party as people, but that doesn't stop the fanservice from being distracting and situation-inappropriate.

Conpensating with extremes doesn't work in most cases after all.

There are always exceptions that prove the rule.

Largely I think Fates has fine characters and even most of the designs aren't too bad.

Its stuff like the face petting that pushes it over the edge. That's less characterization and designs and more of the game wanting you to be creepy. The game takes characters who are mostly rad (**** off Peri) and turns them into waifu/husbando bait with its gameplay.

Fates is weeeeeird, man.

 

[chocolatejr9]

There are always exceptions that prove the rule.

Largely I think Fates has fine characters and even most of the designs aren't too bad.

Its stuff like the face petting that pushes it over the edge. That's less characterization and designs and more of the game wanting you to be creepy. The game takes characters who are mostly rad (**** off Peri) and turns them into waifu/husbando bait with its gameplay.

Fates is weeeeeird, man.

One could argue this is a hot take too, because you didn't say Fates was a bad game, like everyone else...

(FYI, I never played Fates, so I wouldn't know either way. Brave Camilla is great in FEH, though).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

One could argue this is a hot take too, because you didn't say Fates was a bad game, like everyone else...

(FYI, I never played Fates, so I wouldn't know either way. Brave Camilla is great in FEH, though).

It's a better game than a story I'd say.

 

[fogbadge]

I think you just need to get into fandoms more and learn about things.

You'd have a lot less issues like last page if you didn't make assumptions.

i was about 8/9 and hadnt come across their games back then

 

[Quillion]

Speaking of Fire Emblem, I hope the next game doesn't blow its budget on top-to-bottom voice acting. I think the "only story cutscenes" approach can work fine while leaving enough money for everything else.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Xenoblade is turning into a major pillar of modern Nintendo like Splatoon.

This is nothing but a good thing.

 

[Quillion]

Xenoblade is turning into a major pillar of modern Nintendo like Splatoon.

This is nothing but a good thing.

That's an unpopular opinion?

 

[chocolatejr9]

That's an unpopular opinion?

There was recent discourse about Nintendo giving Xenoblade and Fire Emblem too much attention as of late.

 

[Quillion]

There was recent discourse about Nintendo giving Xenoblade and Fire Emblem too much attention as of late.

Bruh, Fire Emblem has gotten quite a bit of spin-offs in a relatively short amount of time. Apparently dedicating a direct to a Xenoblade game is considered "too much attention"?

Get back to me once Koei Tecmo makes Aionios Warriors.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I suspect the dislike is rooted more in fans both annoyed by the lack of a general direct and the perceived focus on JRPGs by Nintendo vs the lack of care for various other NIntendo IP's that have fallen by the wayside. Star Fox, F-Zero, and even DK fans seeing Xenoblade get two new games and a well done remaster in the last 5 years while they haven't gotten much in comparison is the kind of thing to leave people bitter.

 

[Quillion]

I suspect the dislike is rooted more in fans both annoyed by the lack of a general direct and the perceived focus on JRPGs by Nintendo vs the lack of care for various other NIntendo IP's that have fallen by the wayside. Star Fox, F-Zero, and even DK fans seeing Xenoblade get two new games and a well done remaster in the last 5 years while they haven't gotten much in comparison is the kind of thing to leave people bitter.

So in other words, business as usual for all of gamers-on-social-media history.

 

[fogbadge]

I suspect the dislike is rooted more in fans both annoyed by the lack of a general direct and the perceived focus on JRPGs by Nintendo vs the lack of care for various other NIntendo IP's that have fallen by the wayside. Star Fox, F-Zero, and even DK fans seeing Xenoblade get two new games and a well done remaster in the last 5 years while they haven't gotten much in comparison is the kind of thing to leave people bitter.

considering how badly the last f-zero did and the negative reactions towards the last star fox its hardly surprising

 

[Diddy Kong]

considering how badly the last f-zero did and the negative reactions towards the last star fox its hardly surprising

DK did fine. Where's it at?

 

[chocolatejr9]

DK did fine. Where's it at?

Not trying to cast doubt or anything, but would you happen to have any numbers? Because, as we've established, DK is a bit more complicated than other Nintendo IPs...

 

[Quillion]

DK did fine. Where's it at?

Not trying to cast doubt or anything, but would you happen to have any numbers? Because, as we've established, DK is a bit more complicated than other Nintendo IPs...

Like I said earlier, both DK and Wario are "complicated" because they are both tied to Mario yet they diverge greatly in terms of presentation and atmosphere.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I sometimes wonder if DK is currently in the odd boat of paradoxically being so valued by certain people in Nintendo (especially Miyamoto), that they seem reluctant to put out titles unless they're significant and/or precisely what they want the brand to be now. With the IP being majorly highlighted in the theme park, it's entirely possible in the last few years that the push has been towards going big in the next game and that a few mid-level entries in the interim are not on the table as a result of that. This could be wishful thinking on my part, but Nintendo is the kind of company that has taken the view with certain franchises a long absence of releases is better than ones that don't live up to their visions/plans.

 

[fogbadge]

DK did fine. Where's it at?

last i checked it was still one of nintendos top selling ips

 

[Diddy Kong]

Not trying to cast doubt or anything, but would you happen to have any numbers? Because, as we've established, DK is a bit more complicated than other Nintendo IPs...

Not sure about numbers, but I do know it's a fact that Tropical Freeze sold more on the Switch than the Wii U. I consider that a success, the game is also highly critically acclaimed, and of great quality. It's all the more weird the absence is taking so long. But I have hope.

 

[Quillion]

Still think Retro would've done the third DKCR trilogy game if they weren't roped back into doing Metroid Prime. Maybe they should put together more teams so they can handle more projects at once.

TBH, the only thing the DKC series can do at this point is bring back the Kremlings. At the same time, their return needs to be treated with as much respect and care as possible, so I understand if they want to wait for Retro to be done with Metroid Prime 4 first before having them go back to DKC. Having them work on both will probably lead to major quality deterioration.
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Shulk is a better conventional-story protagonist, but Rex is a better video game protagonist

Tying in to my opinion that video games are better off not trying to imitate conventional storytelling media like film, TV, and books, Rex works better than Shulk when taking the medium into account. XC2's story focuses primarily on the Aegis and Torna, while Rex acts more like some random guy pulled into this mess, making him a good viewpoint character for the player rather than having to alternate between developing on his own and being controlled by the player.
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The ideas of linearity and motion controls from Zelda: Skyward Sword should be revisited in another Zelda game

Putting aside my feelings toward SS, I think there's definite potential in a Zelda game that embraces linearity, motion controls, or both. However, alongside SS's rushed design and testing phase, I think SS's adherence to having exploration elements greatly held those ideas back.

To make a Zelda game that embraces linearity and/or motion controls, they should get one of the EPD teams behind the low-budget, experimental titles to make it (EPD 4 or EPD 7) while Aonuma supervises or produces. It should also be designed as an FF10-like "squiggly hallway", with dungeons merely being obstacles in the path rather than places to collect some macguffin.
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The Sportsmates should be adopted (with enhancements) as Nintendo's standard avatar system in place of the Miis

Keeping Miis around is honestly awkward since they take their name from the Wii, plus their facial features are too flat and simplistic for today.

The Sportsmates on the other hand have a bit more detail that better showcases technical advancement while still being simple enough to provide universal appeal. They just need the customization options of the Miis hopefully plus the makeup option of Miitopia Switch. Maybe they could take the name "Playmates" so that they're not tied to being part of the Wii Sports series at all.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Still think Retro would've done the third DKCR trilogy game if they weren't roped back into doing Metroid Prime. Maybe they should put together more teams so they can handle more projects at once.

FWIW, that's basically what they did with Monolith Soft: at the start of the Switch era, they only had one group. Fastforward to today, and they now have four groups, all doing their own thing.

 

[UserKev]

Wario Ware is a surreal. And meaningless IP. And I wish it wasn't given priority in Smash. Ironically, I don't even dislike the IP, but I can't help but loathe the IP because of what it did to Wario. It would have been far better as its own IP. And the fact that Wario is practically slapped on to it, further diminishes the unique candidates.

 

[fogbadge]

Wario Ware is a surreal. And meaningless IP. And I wish it wasn't given priority in Smash. Ironically, I don't even dislike the IP, but I can't help but loathe the IP because of what it did to Wario. It would have been far better as its own IP. And the fact that Wario is practically slapped on to it, further diminishes the unique candidates.

i don’t think anyone will dispute the surreal part

 

[Quillion]

Wario Ware is a surreal. And meaningless IP. And I wish it wasn't given priority in Smash. Ironically, I don't even dislike the IP, but I can't help but loathe the IP because of what it did to Wario. It would have been far better as its own IP. And the fact that Wario is practically slapped on to it, further diminishes the unique candidates.

Honestly, WarioWare wouldn't feel so out-of-place if they would just integrate it with the rest of the Wario series and the extended Mario universe. Wario Land itself already feels out-of-place with the extended Mario universe, but the fact that it's a platformer (albeit a different kind) like the main Mario games diminishes that fact. With WarioWare, it really does show that they slapped Wario on because they couldn't think of anyone else.

It's not like there's no precedent; the American Super Mario Bros. 2 was just Doki Doki Panic with Mario characters slapped on, and some of the unique characters from that game were integrated into the extended Mario universe (Shy Guys in particular were repurposed into being Yoshi's main enemies).

It just feels so weird that Nintendo wants to keep everything in Wario separate from the rest of Mario.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Better integration of Wario, Yoshi, and DK into the Mario spin-offs is one of the biggest wasted opportunities by Nintendo. That so many Mario Parties, Karts, & Sports titles have occurred without many of those afroementioned franchise elements being more heavily featured demonstrates both a lack of creativity and a detrimental obsession with branding.

 

[Quillion]

Better integration of Wario, Yoshi, and DK into the Mario spin-offs is one of the biggest wasted opportunities by Nintendo. That so many Mario Parties, Karts, & Sports titles have occurred without many of those afroementioned franchise elements being more heavily featured demonstrates both a lack of creativity and a detrimental obsession with branding.

Honestly, the spin-offs' track record with integrating Yoshi is good. Integrating Luigi's Mansion is pretty decent IMO. DK's integration is poor, but it's better than nothing. Wario's integration is next-to-nothing (only saved from being nothing thanks to Dr. Mario 64).

So it's actually a really mixed bag based on how well the character-based sub-franchise is tied to the main Mario games.

 

[UserKev]

Honestly, WarioWare wouldn't feel so out-of-place if they would just integrate it with the rest of the Wario series and the extended Mario universe. Wario Land itself already feels out-of-place with the extended Mario universe, but the fact that it's a platformer (albeit a different kind) like the main Mario games diminishes that fact. With WarioWare, it really does show that they slapped Wario on because they couldn't think of anyone else.

It's not like there's no precedent; the American Super Mario Bros. 2 was just Doki Doki Panic with Mario characters slapped on, and some of the unique characters from that game were integrated into the extended Mario universe (Shy Guys in particular were repurposed into being Yoshi's main enemies).

It just feels so weird that Nintendo wants to keep everything in Wario separate from the rest of Mario.

I somewhat disagree. lol I really couldn't envision Ashley standing next to Mario or even Fawful. DK is in a unique boarder that manages to work phenomenally well in the Mario universe. The Wario Ware cast are just too different. And strictly urban, ultra modern city folk. They'd be like tourists in the Mario universe. You can have them in Mario Kart, I agree. This is why I fear Waluigi getting his own game since it could easily turn into something.. weird.

 

[Dinoman96]

DK WAS pretty well integrated into Mario spin-offs in the mid-2000s. Not only did we start getting Diddy playable but quite a few of Rare's other characters began seeping into the games as well, like Dixie, Funky, the Kritters, even freaking King K. Rool and Tiny Kong showed up in Mario Super Sluggers.

It's just, well, DKCR was more or less a complete reboot of the series that wiped away everything except for a few bare essentials (DK, Diddy, Cranky, Rambi, Squawks). Nowadays we're lucky to even get Diddy in Mario spin-offs anymore. At least we got Dixie and Funky (who returned for Tropical Freeze of course) in Mario Kart Tour.

 

[Quillion]

And strictly urban, ultra modern city folk. They'd be like tourists in the Mario universe.

So what do you think about the people of New Donk?

DK WAS pretty well integrated into Mario spin-offs in the mid-2000s. Not only did we start getting Diddy playable but quite a few of Rare's other characters began seeping into the games as well, like Dixie, Funky, the Kritters, even freaking King K. Rool and Tiny Kong showed up in Mario Super Sluggers.

It's just, well, DKCR was more or less a complete reboot of the series that wiped away everything except for a few bare essentials (DK, Diddy, Cranky, Rambi, Squawks). Nowadays we're lucky to even get Diddy in Mario spin-offs anymore. At least we got Dixie and Funky in Mario Kart Tour.

I know Retro did support for Mario Kart 7 on the 3DS, and that game had a track homaging DKCR which itself was brought into MK8.

That said, I do like that DKCR wiped out a lot of Rare's elements. There are quite a bit of things about Rare's games I really don't miss, like Candy and Kiddy.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's a real unpopular one.

I don't mind the games that add free content after launch to better the overall package.

Its essentially making an already fun game even better over time.

 

[Quillion]

I'm re-titling this thread to something else. I believe it will better serve its purpose with its horizons broadened.
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Here's a real unpopular one.

I don't mind the games that add free content after launch to better the overall package.

Its essentially making an already fun game even better over time.

It definitely works when they make an already fun game even better.

Not so much when the game is arbitrarily short on content or, worse, unpolished mechanics-wise.

The Splatoon games do the former for the most part. The recent Mario sports spin-offs do the latter. It's just a matter of whether the game feels like a complete package at release.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm re-titling this thread to something else. I believe it will better serve its purpose with its horizons broadened.
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It definitely works when they make an already fun game even better.

Not so much when the game is arbitrarily short on content or, worse, unpolished mechanics-wise.

The Splatoon games do the former for the most part. The recent Mario sports spin-offs do the latter. It's just a matter of whether the game feels like a complete package at release.

You don't have to comment on everyone's opinions dude.

 

[Quillion]

You don't have to comment on everyone's opinions dude.

Do I have to NOT comment on everyone's opinions?