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Understanding the depth of mix-up games in SSBM

Discussion in 'Melee Discussion' started by Emblem Lord, Jun 2, 2007.

  1. Emblem Lord

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    The mix-up game has been a part of traditional fighters going all the way back to the days of Street Fighter. It is defined as a way of altering your patterns of attack in order to get past your opponents defense so you can nail a combo, super move, grab, knockdown, etc. The most common and most obvious mix-up is the high/low game. Traditional fighters have what you call hit levels. All attacks hit a certain level. The levels are high, mid, and low. Alternatively the levels can be overhead, high, and low. The high/low game is all about hitting different levels to break through an opponents guard. If they are blocking high then hit low. If they are blocking low then hit mid or overhead. The high/low game is a main stay of traditional fighters that adds a layer of depth to the genre. Smash lacks a traditional high/low game, but has it’s own variants. This actually adds to the experience of the Smash series making it one of a kind. There are also many other kinds of mix-ups, and the Smash series adds it’s own spin to many of them. I will discuss the many mix-ups that Smash has, as well as their usefulness and their application. Some of them will be reminiscent of traditional fighters and others will be unique to SSBM. After reading this post you will be further convinced of the depth behind Smash and you will see just how effective mix-ups really are.


    The purpose of mix-ups is a simple one. They are used to get in damage, and remain unpredictable. If you were unable to mix-up your attacks in a traditional fighter, it would be that much harder to get hits in and win matches. This is where hit levels come in as well as grabbing and other forms of getting past guarding such as guard breaking. The Smash series does away with hit levels and the basic guard. Instead it has shields along with attacks and grabs. The developers foresaw that shielding would be broken without some kind of flaw, so they created some. If you hold the shield too long, it will break. Shields also shrink the longer you hold them, they get reduced as they take hits, they take time to regenerate, and they can be shield stabbed. To help mitigate all these weaknesses, shields can be tilted for better coverage of a given area, or they can be made lighter and wider for more coverage overall. It is also possible to roll or spot dodge from a shield. With this formula the developers of SSBM set the stage for many creative mix-up games. Now let’s get to it.


    Approach Games

    Approaching an opponent adds a layer of depth in of itself. You can approach a number of ways. Dashing, wave dashing, SHFFLING, come in with a projectile, empty SHFF, JC grab, JC attack, etc. Still it can all be broken down into 3 different things. Attacking, grabbing, or shield stabbing. You grab if they like to stay in their shield. You attack if you want to pressure them or you think they will attack and you want to stuff their move. Shield stabbing is just attacking really. Or is it? Everyone has gotten a shield stab off before. You probably just thought it was luck and you just went from there. But what if you started actively looking for opportunities to shield stab? What if you take it to a level beyond that? What if you try to pressure someone’s shield to the point where you know you can get an easy shield stab? Let’s say you are playing Captain Falcon. Your opponent is at 110% damage. One knee will easily finish them off. You want to get a knee off easily. You might say just go for a grab to d-throw to knee right? Well, that is one route. But you could also pressure their shield with sweetspotted knees in order to whittle down their shield. The knee has enough shield stun for Captain Falcon to get away unharmed so you could repeatedly pressure them if your good enough. Then once their shield is low enough you can get an easy hit on an exposed body part. Let’s say you rush your opponent and they just know that you want to get that knee off, so they angle their shield upwards. But then you just land harmlessly and then d-tilt hitting their exposed lower body and finishing them off with a full hopped…… Uair. MINDGAMES!!!!!!
    So you can see that shield tilting allows SSBM to have it’s own spin on high/low mix-ups and actively creating opportunities to nail shield stabs sets-up for more chances to stage an offense. If the shield stab causes a knockdown then just tech chase. Shield stabbing is a great way to circumvent the protection that shields offer. And of course while you are looking for opportunities to shield stab you can still mix-up your offense with grabs making you even more unpredictable.

    Dash Cross-up

    Crossing up is an old school term. It means to go to the opposite side of your opponent to land an attack. So a dash cross-up is simply dashing behind your opponent to catch them off guard. This is an extremely useful technique. Unfortunately it is only effective with characters that have fast dashes with long opening strides. Characters such as Marth, Captain Falcon, and Fox can put this technique to good use. The idea behind this technique is to quickly dash past someone when they out up a shield. Of course if you are fast enough and close enough, you can also dash past them as they are attacking. Marth is especially good at this because he crouches low to the ground as he dashes, making it easier for him to avoid attacks. Full mastery of Dash cross-ups will lead to alot more opportunities to land combos or attacks. After dashing behind an opponent you can turn around immediately for a pivot grab. This will catch most players off guard. You could mix-it up even further though. You could dash right back to the front of your opponent if you think they might SHFFL an aerial to hit you as you dash behind them. You could also dash and shield to block their attack and then retaliate. If you think they will roll away or spot dodge, just wait for it and then punish them. Dash Cross-ups are not the same as going into a characters full dash animation and then dashing behind someone. Dash Cross-ups are better because they leave you with more options which is a very good thing in remaining unpredictable.

    SHFFL Cross-ups

    Crossing up with a SHFFL harkens back to Street Fighter. In games with a traditional guarding system, crossing-up would mean you jump over your opponent to attack their backs. There aren’t any Bair attacks, so you had to use an attack that had a hitbox that appeared behind a character, and you had to time your jump in very well. This is a very effective mix-up tool because it would be difficult to tell which way to block when used well. SHFFL cross-ups in SSBM are a bit different. They are easier to do and there are two ways of doing them. And not every character can get use out of this technique. The first method of doing a SHFFL Cross-up is to just run at your opponent and then do a SHFFLed aerial as you approach them, but space yourself so that you land behind them. The other method is to do a SHFFLed Bair or any aerial that hits behind you after a Dash Cross-up. The first method is great for baiting attacks because when you land you are very safe. With proper spacing there is little your opponent can do to retaliate. But you have quite a lot of options after this technique. You can dash back in for a grab, pressure your opponent with dash dancing and then punish their roll or spot dodge, do another SHFFL cross-up, you could dash away or roll away if you fear being punished, etc. It’s also good for getting in a shield stab. This is a very good tactic. You just have to make sure you use an aerial that has little lag for the SHFFL and you should be fine when trying to master it. The second method for the most part just adds another layer of depth to dash cross-ups. This is another option for you to use if you think your opponent will try to SHFFL a Bair in response to your dash cross-up. But as you SHFFL the Bair you can do two things. You can SHFFL it then land in place. From there you have the same options as the first method. But this way of doing it is slightly unsafe because the aerial would come out as you are rising, which gives your opponent more time to recover from their shield stun and then punish you. To remedy this you could SHFFL the aerial when you hit the peak of your jump so you are safer after the SHFFL, but that means you are slightly more vulnerable while in the air. Either way it will be a trade off, so be sure to change up your method so your opponent can’t read you easily. The other way of SHFFLing the Bair is to do it while jumping away so it’s harder to punish you. Then when you land you can dash back in for a grab or to pressure them with dash dancing, etc. As you can see there are several ways of using SHFFL cross-ups and they are all worthy additions to any smashers arsenal.

    SHFFL Set-ups

    When a smasher SHFFLes an attack and it gets shielded often they think, ”Awww, crap. I really wanted to get that hit in.” And they also worry about getting shield grabbed as well. But having someone shield your attack isn’t necessarily a bad thing. In fact it can open the door to many new mix-up games and mind games. Players just need to change how they think. Let’s say a player SHFFLes an attack and it gets shielded. The player knows a shield grab is coming so they do a dash cross-up and then pivot grab. The player used the situation to his advantage. By using an aerial that has little lag he was able to evade the shield grab and punish his opponent. And that’s the key using aerials that have very little lag, and remaining aware that your opponent may or may not shield. If they don’t shield then just continue comboing or w/e. If they DO shield then the mix-up game begins. From there you can do so much. You can roll, shield, spot dodge, jab, SHFFL cross-up, attack, grab, dash cross-up, etc. Basically, you can do whatever you want, but what you do will vary greatly depending on your opponent and your own character. When someone shields a SHFFL they usually will instinctively try to shield grab. To counter this you could dash back and then dash back in, dash cross-up, or jab. Dashing will let you avoid the shield grab and then you can retaliate. Jabbing will let you stuff their shield grab attempt and then you can grab them or do something else. Fox and Falco can shine to stuff shield grabbers. Shiek can d-smash and jab. DK can use his up b. Every character has someway of dealing with shield grabbing. Ok, that’s great and all that, but what about fighting a veteran smasher that knows all those tricks? What if they shield and they don’t try to grab that often because they understand the mix-up game? Hehe, that my friends is where the REAL fun starts. The more intelligent a person is and the more they understand how mind games work, the more you can mess with their heads. So let’s say you SHFFL an attack and after playing them for a minutes you have picked on the fact that they usually won’t shield grab. So, how about after that SHFFL you do something amazing.
    You grab them. It’s a revolutionary idea I know, but think about it. Smashers learn to never attempt a grab after a SHFFL because it will just get you shield grabbed. But if your opponent just sits in his shield not grabbing you after he blocks your attack then why shouldn’t you just grab him? And when he gets wise to that, then you can switch it up again. You can go back to jabbing or dash cross-ups or w/e works for you. And that’s the beauty of the mix-up game. It’s mindgames that are simple and extremely effective. As the aggressor you are at in advantage in the mix-up game. They have to guess what you will do. They have to choose correctly or they will lose. All you have to do is be patient and unpredictable and victory is yours.


    Character Specific Mix-ups

    I can’t list all the mix-up games that are unique to every character, because I would never be done with this post. Instead I will talk about a few that you may know and some you may not know just to get some ideas going in your heads. Fox and Falco can JC their shines as you probably already know. So did you ever think if doing a JC grab out of a shine? That would add a whole new level of mix-up potential to their game. Peach players will often dash attack out of a dash dance. You should also try d-smashing or grabbing right out of a dash. It catches a lot of players off guard because they just don’t expect it. Captain Falcon can Raptor Boost and Moonwalk. This gives him a lot of mix-up potential. Dash cross-up to moonwalk grab. SHFFLed Nair to jab to Raptor Boost. He can do a lot and has a lot of possibilities. Sheik has a very basic mix-up game after Needle Cancelling. She can jab or d-smash to stuff shield grabbers. She can grab to catch people who stay in their shields or she can wait for the roll or the spot dodge and punish her opponent afterwards. It might be basic, but it’s still very effective. Marth has mix-up potential with his d-tilt. Abusing the IASA frames of the attack, he can dash cross-up right when he pulls his sword arm back, dash back then dash in for a grab, dash right in for a grab, go for a SHFFL cross-up, throw out another d-tilt, or just dash away to avoid being punished. Every character in the game has mix-ups with their attacks. Experiment and see what you can find out. Feel free to post whatever discoveries you may have so that the community can grow in knowledge and have some discussion about it.


    I hope this was informative and that it inspired people to try new things and take their game to new levels. Mix-ups add an incredible amount of depth to all fighters and SSBM is no exception. Although it may be hard to spot mix-ups I can guarantee that pro smashers use them to the fullest and you can see them if you look closely enough at pro matches. The entire community should be aware of the mix-up games in SSBM so that it can grow and aspire to new heights. So train hard, mix it up, try new things and breakthrough the limit!
     
  2. CluelessBTD

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    This is great information for any SSBM newcomers. I've seen the things you explain a lot in pro matches.
     
  3. x4FoSho4x

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    Nice Marcel. itll help a lot of people. madddd long though. lol.
     
  4. metroid1117

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    This is going to help my mindgames a lot :).
     
  5. KevinM

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    Doin Me so Hard I Got Pregnant

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    Good post... Wall of text...

    But yea very effective, i used to play street fighter.. I mean the analogies are solid but it just seems crazy to compare the two games hah
     
  6. halfDemon

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    Very nice and useful. Good stuff.
     
  7. Dogysamich

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    I'm too lazy to read any of this now, but I'm glad somebody else can and actually does equate this game to traditional fighters.

    Just by glancing at the topics, I have another technique that's not mentioned that I talk about very often that is in melee.

    Tick Throwing (jab resetting in melee)

    ___-

    But this aint about me, it's about the awesomeness of somebody putting the comparision into words
     
  8. Emblem Lord

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    Yes, I was going to put down tick throwing. But SHFFL set-ups are pretty much the same thing. You SHFFL a fast move and if they take the hit you can grab. If they shield then then you can jab then grab or just grab for a basic mix-up game.

    I love tick throwing.
     
  9. TheManaLord

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    Most players don't angle specific their shields to block incoming shffls.
     
  10. Emblem Lord

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    It's still possible to get a shield stab if they don't.
     
  11. Perfect Hero

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    Many people don't realize this but Smash is very similar to traditional 2d fighting games. And yes the most basic structure of any fighting games is the same so it is comparable. Zoning, Spacing, Risk/Reward, Punishment just to name a few are very important in these fighting games.

    Good Read :)
     
  12. kerploplesteesh

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    Thank you! As a very technical fox that sometimes has mindgame trouble it has given me a lot of good ideas. =D kUdOS
     
  13. JesiahTEG

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    Nice job man. This helped me, I"m glad you take the time to help other ppl out. Thanks.
     
  14. tshahi10

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    I think this was obvious
    although you should realize that your opponent will realize that your gonna mix up the game and they will also adjust

    the problem with these threads are that you determine that you will change your gameplay first, but what if your opponent does? then you will get mindgamed in the mix-up
     
  15. Emblem Lord

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    And that's why you try to read them and guess what they are going to do. This thread is to help people take thier game to the next level. And to understand the depth of Smash in a way that isn't really discussed or widely known.

    Whoever said you will change your game up first? Instead of assuming things, you should take the thread for what it is. It's not some magical source of power that will win games for you and make you invincible. It's meant to open people's eyes and help them see the game differently. It's meant to help improve the overall metagame of the community.
     
  16. Emblem Lord

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    Edit: Sorry for the double post mods. Meant to edit my other post.
     
  17. Swampy

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    Thanks for all the info, really usefull and will be even more usefull when I get the game :laugh: . Woudl be nice if you woudl have little video of like 5 sec to show the technique because some of them is kinda hard to understand and some people are more visual. But still this is really nice thanks :)
     
  18. Emblem Lord

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    I exlplained this all as well as I could. It's all pretty straight forward. I video really isn't neccessary.
     
  19. God of shiek

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    this was a good guide this will help my mindgames
     
  20. Emblem Lord

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    Too good for the second page.
     
  21. Dark Sonic

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    This is yet another extremely helpfull thread by Emblem Lord. Where do you learn this kind of stuff?
     
  22. Emblem Lord

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    I play alot of other fighters. I just love fighting games in general. They are my passion. I have experimented with and tiered other fighting games all by myself as well.

    I just love understanding aspects of fighting games and it comes easy to me. I just love fighting games.
     
  23. DynamicDuo

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    Yea, me too.^^^
     
  24. Shinespiked

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    Emblem Lord, this is great stuff. After reading this I immediately picked up smash and started practicing.

    If you look at any pro games you should be able to see the stuff Emblem describes.
     
  25. Roman.

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    Wow, that was a really good read. The stuff you were talking about is so simple but so effective and it really makes sense. I do use some of the techniques but now I'll be able to know why and advance my mindgames greatly. I've been thinking about smash and how I could incorperate more mindgames lately since I'm letting my bro borrow my wii to play zelda until brawl comes out. I still play with my friends all the time but I've really had a lot of time to just think and understand the game better. This helped a lot, thank you.
     
  26. cyberdemon

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    Good job dude.

    This stuff looks very useful.
     
  27. Zane Fleia

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    I just read through the thread and I agree with most everyone else. Very helpful! Thanks a bunch! ^_^
     
  28. ToXn

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    it was actully urban champion which introduced the High/Low Game.
     
  29. Emblem Lord

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    I figured that other games had the high low game before Street Fighter. I was just saying they have been around since the original fighters that started it all.
     
  30. WhiteOblv

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    Great post man. It helped me alot.
     
  31. Perfect Hero

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    In original SF2 games, mixups revolved around tick throws by the way. Not much as a high/low game.
     
  32. Emblem Lord

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    Why are all the great threads ignored while random bullcrap threads like "How do I improve blah blah" and "Who is the best in the world right now?" get all the attention?

    Oh, and BTW.

    Bumpage.
     
  33. Perfect Hero

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    People can't put in input that would be about mixups anyway. Play SF, tons of mixups.
     
  34. BigRick

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    Bumpage.

    Well a few characters could play a little bit of high/low in certain situations.
     
  35. Emblem Lord

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    SSBM mix-ups revolve more around forcing the shield and then deciding to do different things according to what options your opponent has and your own options as well.

    Things like:

    Grab
    Go into Dash Dancing
    Jab to stuff shield grab attempts
    Shine
    Up B
    Dash cross-up

    There are more, but that's the basics of it.

    Of course what yopu do will also depend on what your opponent can do. Obviously doing a dash cross-up on anyone with a quick up B that hit's behind them is very risky and you probably shouldn't attempt it.

    Take Link for example. Marth really can't dash cross-up on Link, but a grab after a shuffle will beat his grab. So knowing that Link can really only do a Spin attack to stay safe, but Marth could just shield that and then go to town on Link. Link could still roll away though.

    It's just Yomi layers and that's the essence of the mix-up game.

    But shielding isn't the only time where mix-ups take place. It's just the most common situation. Not much different then when someone blocks an attack string in a traditional fighter and from there the opponent can grab, block, back off, keep on attack, or attack low.
     
  36. inside

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    Wow, I spent about 6 minutes reading that post, only finding out at the end that I do those stuff... O.o
     
  37. Emblem Lord

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    Necro Powaaaaaaaa!!!!!
     
  38. Keitaro

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    First your Marth topic and now this. The more I read your stuff, the more scared I am to face you again, lol!
     
  39. Emblem Lord

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    lol. I wasn't aware that anyone in the crew read my stuff.

    I think that they feel like they don't have to or w/e. Well, I know Cactuar reads my stuff.
     
  40. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,024
    Location:
    Orlando Florida
    I'm suprised that such usefull topics are ignored so often. It may be because there's not much more people want to input into the topic, but it shouldn't be overulled by the forever repeatative n00b topics.

    Oh well, at least the people that actually read this get a little better for it.


    +1 Post.
     

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