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#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

Should we have at least one female newcomer in the DLC?


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D

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It's not, but that doesn't make it less true.
I don't think it's true at all.

We've covered a lot of this a few pages back and some of us have established that it's not really fair to sweep Kazooie under the rug and devalue her significance to their respective series and the character slot she shares with Banjo. Smash has done a fine job representing them equally and when you actually play as them in game, she's hard to miss. A fanbases impression shouldn't dictate the intentions of the creators.
 
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scoobymcsnack

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I didn't mean it in that way, I was saying that I usually consult them in such matters.

With that said, I did whip up another version of the post. If anything, this illustrates the problem even more regarding women.

As others have probably said, I don't think it's fair to count Banjo as "primarily male". Kazooie does just as much, if not more, as Banjo as a fighter.
Also don't think it's fair to count Corrin as primarily male. The only time M!Corrin is used more than F!Corrin is when it doesn't make sense to have two Corrins. It'd look kinda dumb to have two Corrins deciding to Smash, and it wouldn't look nice on the CSS to have bother cluttering one select box. The only time I would want both is on the banner, and that would go for every character that has different characters/gendered alts (Bowser Jr., Inkling, etc.)

Anyway, in order to contribute to the thread more, I'll list a couple of females I think should/want to get into Smash.

Lara Croft, Chun Li, Shantae, Tracer, Dixie Kong are incredibly iconic in the gaming community and definitely merit a place in Smash (although given the fact that we already have two Street Fighter characters, Chun Li could definitely wait a bit). Multiple Zelda characters could probably fall into this spot as well, like Midna and Tetra.

KOS-MOS is an honorable mention, as I believe she is rather niche in terms of gaming as a whole, she has a solid fanbase within the Smash community.

Tracer and Ayumi from Famicom Detective Club are both female characters I would like to see in Smash!
 

Mushroomguy12

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(although given the fact that we already have two Street Fighter characters, Chun Li could definitely wait a bit).
This mentality is exactly why I was dreading Ken joining the game, even as a fan of him. Chun-Li is literally always the 2nd Street Fighter Rep in everything else, Smash is the only game to have Ryu but not her, let alone Ken. People excuse him for being an echo but still count him as a reason why Chun-Li shouldn't be in, even though Sakurai has added Mario, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem newcomers on top of other newcomers or returning veterans from the same series already being in the game.
 
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Neoxon

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As others have probably said, I don't think it's fair to count Banjo as "primarily male". Kazooie does just as much, if not more, as Banjo as a fighter.
Also don't think it's fair to count Corrin as primarily male. The only time M!Corrin is used more than F!Corrin is when it doesn't make sense to have two Corrins. It'd look kinda dumb to have two Corrins deciding to Smash, and it wouldn't look nice on the CSS to have bother cluttering one select box. The only time I would want both is on the banner, and that would go for every character that has different characters/gendered alts (Bowser Jr., Inkling, etc.)

Anyway, in order to contribute to the thread more, I'll list a couple of females I think should/want to get into Smash.

Lara Croft, Chun Li, Shantae, Tracer, Dixie Kong are incredibly iconic in the gaming community and definitely merit a place in Smash (although given the fact that we already have two Street Fighter characters, Chun Li could definitely wait a bit). Multiple Zelda characters could probably fall into this spot as well, like Midna and Tetra.

KOS-MOS is an honorable mention, as I believe she is rather niche in terms of gaming as a whole, she has a solid fanbase within the Smash community.

Tracer and Ayumi from Famicom Detective Club are both female characters I would like to see in Smash!
I specifically said primarily, meaning default. Corrin is male by default. Likewise, you primarily control Banjo, with Kazooie effectively being Banjo’s weapon as far as Smash’s story-less self is concerned.

Also, I don’t feel comfortable pushing Tracer given what Activision Blizzard did to various Hong Kong protesters, & I say this as someone who once pushed for her. The same applies to Coco (from Crash). To be honest, I feel conflicted because I’m a founding member of my university’s Overwatch team. But even though Sakurai & Nintendo probably don’t care, I can’t in good faith ask for anyone from Activision Blizzard, Tracer included. We already have two problematic characters in the Fighters Pass.
 
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Planet Cool

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Likewise, you primarily control Banjo, with Kazooie effectively being Banjo’s weapon as far as Smash’s story-less self is concerned.
Why do people keep saying this? Have you played (or played against) Banjo and Kazooie at all? Because it's not just untrue, it's obviously untrue. Kazooie even does the dash animation. I feel like I'm being trolled.
 

Neoxon

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Why do people keep saying this? Have you played (or played against) Banjo and Kazooie at all? Because it's not just untrue, it's obviously untrue. Kazooie even does the dash animation. I feel like I'm being trolled.
Yes I have, & Kazooie mostly serves as the weapon more often than not. You mainly control Banjo. And without any sort of story or dialogue, we don’t get much of Kazooie’s character like in their home games. Counting them is a bit disingenuous, to be honest.

Which two, may I ask?
  • Joker
  • Hero
    • The main composer, Sugiyama, is a war-crime-denying, homophobic, & transphobic jerk. Though credit where it’s due, DQXI(S) does a solid job of going against his beliefs.
 
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You're tossin' out a million things at once that I would love to comment on Neoxon Neoxon but I've been trying really hard to keep my posts brief lately so I'll only point out a coupla things.
Likewise, you primarily control Banjo, with Kazooie effectively being Banjo’s weapon as far as Smash’s story-less self is concerned.
One thing that I think most of us came to the conclusion on is that it all really comes down to perception. People who haven't played the BK series where the only knowledge they have is only from Smash is usually quick to relegate Kazooie to weapon status. If you actually payed attention the games and her character, you'd have a very different impression. I know that Banjo essentially acts as the exoskeleton for the fighter spot they share but why should that make Kazooie's contribution to the duo insignificant. A little ironic for a female activist to dismiss the only female character in the fighters pass. Granted, not the stand alone female character we would all like to see, but a female character no less that just happens to share a spot with a bear.

Hero
  • The main composer, Sugiyama, is a war-crime-denying, homophobic, & transphobic jerk. Though credit where it’s due, DQXI(S) does a solid job of going against his beliefs.
You can't blame an entire company/series or have distain for a character because of one individuals beliefs. I would presume there's a lot of good people who worked hard on Hero and deserve their fair share. I hate to sound harsh but just be patient, the old man will end up dying sooner than later.
 
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Ben Holt

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  • Hero
    • The main composer, Sugiyama, is a war-crime-denying, homophobic, & transphobic jerk. Though credit where it’s due, DQXI(S) does a solid job of going against his beliefs.
Here in the United States, we have an entire major political party that espouses those beliefs! :grin:
 
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Spongeboob

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Bleh
54/46 isn't that far from 50/50. And even if it was, most video games still don't reflect that, since a significant portion of them still include women as only side characters and/or in less number.

Marketing part is obvious: A lot of video games feature fanservice catered towards straight men but it's rare to see the opposite (even then it's almost always more subdued).

For a long time, there were no female heroes with their own movies and they could only be main characters as male characters' love interests or as the token girl in a team (Gamora and Natasha). That's sexist, no matter how you look at it. And no, "most popular heroes are men" excuse is invalid when they gave Guardians their own movies before Captain Marvel.
54/46 isn't that far from 50/50. And even if it was, most video games still don't reflect that, since a significant portion of them still include women as only side characters and/or in less number.
I guess you could make the claim that it's close enough. By tens, round up/down to the nearest one and you'll get 50 for both. However, that wasn't the point being made. The person I responded to claimed that it wasn't the case that males play more video games than females. Anyways, video games nowadays do reflect the supposed "lack of representation". Even if there is/was/were actual data to back up the claim, it could be concluded that the majority of games in which women were reduced to side roles were in an older time when "representation" wasn't as big of an issue. Yesterday's media does not reflect today's culture.
Marketing part is obvious: A lot of video games feature fanservice catered towards straight men but it's rare to see the opposite (even then it's almost always more subdued).
Also, once again: citation needed. Yes, there are games out there with fanservice towards men just as there are games with fanservice towards women, but I've seen not a thing on how often either is.
For a long time, there were no female heroes with their own movies and they could only be main characters as male characters' love interests or as the token girl in a team (Gamora and Natasha). That's sexist, no matter how you look at it. And no, "most popular heroes are men" excuse is invalid when they gave Guardians their own movies before Captain Marvel.
As for the MCU...
How is there being "no female heroes" sexist? That's like saying the fashion industry is sexist against men due to the lack of straight male designers. It's not like they were implying that women are weak or women can't be heroes. The stories just happen to be about men. While I could see Gamora as the "token girl", she acted far from it and was developed beyond that as the MCU progressed. Additionally, it could be argued that Guardians of the Galaxy was in development longer than Captain Marvel.
That is sadly the case. But still, 46% is still 46%. It is reasonable for them to still cater to this audience.
I see it as just a statistic.
I am by no means the grammar police, but I'm just gonna let ya know that this was worded poorly. You're against the idea of more women. You're against the idea of adding more female characters. But simply referring to women as "females" is wrong.



"She looks cool" is a valid reason enough to want a character in, particularly in a topic asking which women we'd genuinely like to see in Smash. Your gatekeeping is unnecessary. From what I've seen, people are naming characters that would bring radically different designs, personalities, archetypes, fighting styles, and/or franchises to Smash. They just so happen to be awesome female characters, and there's nothing wrong with that or wanting more of it. Especially since what we have in Smash is lacking, to say the least.



I think removing cool characters from box art, remodeling games to eliminate them entirely, saying you don't want those characters in games you publish because they won't succeed is disrespectful. Many of the characters we're listing went through extra hurdles to exist, and a lot of extra care was put into them to make them stand out. I think Chun-li's creator had the right idea:



And no one here wants women just because, but there's nothing with that. The fact of the matter is, when people talk about wanting more villains or whatever else, it never draws the kind of backlash we have to deal with.



Gee, I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:



You don't, but the videogame industry disagrees with this idea bigtime. Otherwise, we wouldn't have nearly as many male protagonists. And I mean, as a little girl, it'd be a lot easier for me to look up to and identify with Ribbon Girl, than say, Agent 47 from Hitman.



That's... not much of a difference (and the number is going to skew in favor of women, if the mobile gaming explosion continues its current trend). It definitely doesn't explain the industry's marketing tactics (especially since she already pointed out that men are much more likely to swap genders in-game than women, and that that contributes to female characters' popularity and high percentage use when both options are available. But that's getting off topic), and people's general perception of the average person who plays games because of said marketing.



That's a bold statement considering that games with female-led protagonists receive a fraction of advertising budget on average (~60% less), and women were and still are disproportionately represented in the industry.

You can argue sales or whatever nonsense, but even genres that typically draw more female players prioritized male demographics overseas. See: Puyo Puyo and Panel de Pon for reference.

The statement I made earlier about remodeling and/or removing women from games entirely, and hiding or removing them from promotional material was more common than I'd like to admit. Same for publishers dismissing the idea of using female protagonists.

Forreal... you'd think Nintendo would highlight a popular, multi-million selling series that did well in Japan, Europe, and North America like Style Savvy a bit more, but they don't.



Does rewriting Seth Killian into the main villain when it was intended to be Maya Hansen count? Or introducing a founding Avenger member (Wasp) super late because known racist/sexist chairman Ike Perlmutter was apart of the creative committee and girls don't sell toys? Or the fact that it took getting rid of him to make something like Captain Marvel (the 21st movie in the MCU) happen. Even if we ignore the dumb, sexist gags that were sprinkled in every so often and completely unchallenged in-universe, the few women they had were either poorly written love interests, recieved a lot "male gaze", or some combination of the two. There's a reason people joke about early MCU failing the Bechdel test (i.e. two named female characters talking to each other about something other than a guy) more often than not.
I am by no means the grammar police, but I'm just gonna let ya know that this was worded poorly. You're against the idea of more women. You're against the idea of adding more female characters. But simply referring to women as "females" is wrong.
Perhaps I should've used better word choices. I'm not against the idea of more women in Smash. However, I'm against the idea of more women getting into Smash simply because they are women. They should be held to the same standards as men when being considered for Smash; no higher, and no lower. Their gender, ethnicity, genre, or other aspects of their identity should not matter. Also, why is it incorrect to refer to women as females? That's like saying it's wrong to refer to men as males.
"She looks cool" is a valid reason enough to want a character in, particularly in a topic asking which women we'd genuinely like to see in Smash. Your gatekeeping is unnecessary. From what I've seen, people are naming characters that would bring radically different designs, personalities, archetypes, fighting styles, and/or franchises to Smash. They just so happen to be awesome female characters, and there's nothing wrong with that or wanting more of it. Especially since what we have in Smash is lacking, to say the least.
I said that "they look cool" was a valid reason (or at least a more valid reason) as well. Also, I'm not gatekeeping. I just think that wanting a character to fill in some sort of quota is a **** reason to want a character. Anyways, yeah. There are characters who would be nice to have that happen to be female. I don't think your average person who speculates Smash DLC (or roster*** for simplicity's sake (censored because *** dodges the censor for some reason when paired with another word)) would consider gender when it comes to who they'd want in Smash. Like I said, I think that's a good thing.
Gee, I wonder why that is? :rolleyes:
From what I can see, three reasons:
  1. Feminists would cry "sexist" if someone asked for more "male representation".
  2. There's already tons of males. (But we all knew that already.)
  3. Many would find the idea stupid because you're asking a character based on their identity rather than their other traits such as "fun factor" or "moveset potential".
You don't, but the videogame industry disagrees with this idea bigtime. Otherwise, we wouldn't have nearly as many male protagonists. And I mean, as a little girl, it'd be a lot easier for me to look up to and identify with Ribbon Girl, than say, Agent 47 from Hitman.
I have not seen any evidence whatsoever of the gaming industry favoring such a bigoted idea. However, I do think that it's because the majority of people in the gaming industry (not streaming, esports or any of that stuff; I mean "real jobs") happen 2B male... I think that's why the majority of video game protagonists are male. Anyways, yeah I guess different people relate to different characters for different reasons, and I'd see myself more in the titular character of Spongebob Squarepants, a literal kitchen sponge, for he is an adult with child-like qualities, than I would in someone who shares my ethnicity/gender such as the main character of El Chavo.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/453634/game-developer-gender-distribution-worldwide/
That's a bold statement considering that games with female-led protagonists receive a fraction of advertising budget on average (~60% less), and women were and still are disproportionately represented in the industry.
Like I said, citation needed.
The statement I made earlier about remodeling and/or removing women from games entirely, and hiding or removing them from promotional material was more common than I'd like to admit. Same for publishers dismissing the idea of using female protagonists.
It's more of the reasoning as to why they do it rather than the mere act of doing it.
Forreal... you'd think Nintendo would highlight a popular, multi-million selling series that did well in Japan, Europe, and North America like Style Savvy a bit more, but they don't.
I agree that they could. I haven't played any of the games, though. So I'll need to do "research" on that. So until then, I'm unsure about whether or not it would be a good fit for Smash.
Does rewriting Seth Killian into the main villain when it was intended to be Maya Hansen count? Or introducing a founding Avenger member (Wasp) super late because known racist/sexist chairman Ike Perlmutter was apart of the creative committee and girls don't sell toys? Or the fact that it took getting rid of him to make something like Captain Marvel (the 21st movie in the MCU) happen. Even if we ignore the dumb, sexist gags that were sprinkled in every so often and completely unchallenged in-universe, the few women they had were either poorly written love interests, recieved a lot "male gaze", or some combination of the two. There's a reason people joke about early MCU failing the Bechdel test (i.e. two named female characters talking to each other about something other than a guy) more often than not.
About that first sentence about Seth Killian... that's like saying that it's misandrist when Ellen Ripley was changed to be a woman in the final version of the film ALIEN. Additionally, the MCU is just another Marvel universe (Earth-199999, actually). So obviously things are gonna happen differently from other Marvel universes. Anyways, how is it sexist that Carol Danvers and the Wasp came so late into the MCU? While I'll need to rewatch Phase One for good measure, it's likely the reason why the gags went "unchallenged" is because they're gags. Off-color jokes like "How many cops does it take in to screw in a lightbulb", while off-color, is harmless.
About Ripley...
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/female-characters-written-for-men
(Sorry for the crummy source. The OG link is dead.)
  • Joker
  • Hero
    • The main composer, Sugiyama, is a war-crime-denying, homophobic, & transphobic jerk. Though credit where it’s due, DQXI(S) does a solid job of going against his beliefs.
Neither of their views are shown or celebrated in Smash though. (From what I can tell, Smash is apolitical. If I remember correctly, the devs took down stages both in favor of and against Trans rights or something.)
Kazooie is basically a glorified weapon for Banjo in Smash
Banjo is basically a glorified vehicle for Kazooie in Smash
Great. Now I picture Banjo & Kazooie as a tank. (Just imagine.)
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000_Banjo-Kazooie.jpg
Also they're both being objectified so it's equality.
 

True Blue Warrior

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It's funny how the two female newcomers that were in development happened to be the ones that were cut (Toon Zelda/Sheik or Tetra and Dixie Kong). And they also happen to be the two characters we know solidly from the Forbidden Seven that have yet to make it into Smash. Even Zero Suit Samus in that game was barely even half a character, you couldn't even select her from the screen without knowing a secret combo, and if you didn't have enough controllers you were screwed trying to select multiple ZSS in a match.
Poor Dixie, always getting the shaft.
 

scoobymcsnack

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This mentality is exactly why I was dreading Ken joining the game, even as a fan of him. Chun-Li is literally always the 2nd Street Fighter Rep in everything else, Smash is the only game to have Ryu but not her, let alone Ken. People excuse him for being an echo but still count him as a reason why Chun-Li shouldn't be in, even though Sakurai has added Mario, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem newcomers on top of other newcomers or returning veterans from the same series already being in the game.
As far as we can tell, the only time we get a second character from a third party series is if they are an echo.
I'd say the same for Castlevania, sure Alucard would be cool and he's quite iconic, I would rather get new third party characters first.

Also the three series you listed are all Nintendo, so of course they priority. Not to mention, Mario and Pokemon are the two biggest franchises in all of gaming, so of course it'd make sense for them to have a bunch of characters.

I specifically said primarily, meaning default. Corrin is male by default. Likewise, you primarily control Banjo, with Kazooie effectively being Banjo’s weapon as far as Smash’s story-less self is concerned.

Also, I don’t feel comfortable pushing Tracer given what Activision Blizzard did to various Hong Kong protesters, & I say this as someone who once pushed for her. The same applies to Coco (from Crash). To be honest, I feel conflicted because I’m a founding member of my university’s Overwatch team. But even though Sakurai & Nintendo probably don’t care, I can’t in good faith ask for anyone from Activision Blizzard, Tracer included. We already have two problematic characters in the Fighters Pass.
Alright, I can give you Corrin. It makes sense.
But even if Banjo does the walking, Kazooie does the running and the jumping. They're pretty fairly split, and it's not fair to undermine Kazooie's contribution to the team because she happens to be the one on Banjo's back.

Yeah it's kinda wack what they did to Hong Kong protest supporters, but I tend to keep characters separate from their creators. We don't know what went on behind the scenes, we don't know who called the shots.

It's funny how the two female newcomers that were in development happened to be the ones that were cut (Toon Zelda/Sheik or Tetra and Dixie Kong). And they also happen to be the two characters we know solidly from the Forbidden Seven that have yet to make it into Smash..
This seems more like a coincidence that you're giving way too much meaning to.
 

RetrogamerMax

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Eh, blame my laziness.

I do plan on making a new poll though, but I will decide on it once the final fighter is released, which will affect some of our discussion here.,



In general, what is lacking are both villains and females. It's just that the Smash community tends to cater to the more surprising and hotter additions. This is also why you kinda see a bit of male bias within speculation.

As Neoxon Neoxon once said, Smash roster-pickers are catering to the more hyping and surprising additions rather than fixing the problems the roster has (such as gender ratios).
What most of the Smash community caters to especially is iconic or popular mascot/protagonist characters of some big or currently popular franchise. Most of those characters don't interest me that much. I always prefer the antagonist and co-protagonist characters more most of the time thus: Why I mainly want females and villains in Smash.
 
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Professor Pumpkaboo

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  • Joker
  • Hero
    • The main composer, Sugiyama, is a war-crime-denying, homophobic, & transphobic jerk. Though credit where it’s due, DQXI(S) does a solid job of going against his beliefs.
does that matter when Joker and Hero are Joker and Hero not Sugimora and Hashino

not sure why people bring up them all the time when their views arent reflected in any of said characters. If sakurai gave a **** about them, then he wouldnt have added Joker and hero but look where we are now
 
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KneeOfJustice99

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I think that a character should be added because they're good.
Tracer is a wonderful example - as a female character, and an LGBTQ+ rep (yay!) she'd work really well.
However, looking at other possible picks, I can see why people are leaning toward other characters.
Doomguy is a good example - he's a rep of an entire genre from a genre defining, if not creating, game.
Geno has been requested by a massive amount of people for years.
There's clearly a lot of competition, and I wouldn't mind a character who was male (again.) but would prefer female representation.
That being said, I think it's important to remember that characters are not mirrors of their creators.
If a game or character is transphobic, homophobic, racist, sexist or otherwise, then it obviously makes sense, but if the creator is the issue then their IP shouldn't really be affected.
I think callbacks are okay - like when Banjo was shown in a DK setting (referencing Rare) but it shouldn't be an issue.
Like, I'm a fan of Mega Man, but if Keiji Ifanune (I hope that's spelt right) was being transphobic, I wouldn't necessarily boycott playing the games I love. It's not like Mega Man is exactly a transphobic series, after all!
I hope this isn't a taboo, and I do want female representation in Smash - I think it's really important, actually - but I can understand if a more requested, popular or interesting character gets in the game. Not gonna lie, but personally I see the characters in Smash not as political, but as a project for the fans - bringing together IPs that would never meet otherwise. Cloud fighting Kirby in the King of Fighters arena? Snake fighting Ryu in Delfino Plaza? This is what Smash is about - its a celebration of gaming, not a political statement. Sakurai wants to make a fun game, at the end of the day.
However, that's just my opinion, and everyone's is valid.
 

Neoxon

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does that matter when Joker and Hero are Joker and Hero not Sugimora and Hashino

not sure why people bring up them all the time when their views arent reflected in any of said characters. If sakurai gave a **** about them, then he wouldnt have added Joker and hero but look where we are now
Maybe not for Joker in terms of Hashino benefiting from his inclusion, but Sugiyama likely directly benefited from Hero’s inclusion due to his ties to the franchise. Adding the likes of Tracer &/or Coco would only add to that (basically condoning ActiBlizz’s China-boot-licking nonsense). I want more women in the roster, but adding those two would just feel wrong. I hate feeling this conflicted.
 
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MaddaD

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Tracer's chances are just done in general. If it's not because of Jeff Kaplan saying the inclusion would be cool, it's the HK controversy Blizzard decided would be a good idea to put themselves in. Nintendo could still do it, but that's a powder keg and a half they'd be sitting on.

Can't wait for Overwatch 2 though.

  • Hero
    • The main composer, Sugiyama, is a war-crime-denying, homophobic, & transphobic jerk. Though credit where it’s due, DQXI(S) does a solid job of going against his beliefs.
Don't forget the fact that he intentionally copyrights every song he composes solely for the purpose of ****ing with Americans. Since DQ7 (i think), most games didn't get the fully orchestral soundtrack and instead got awful MIDIs because he wouldn't give permission to be used outside of Japan.

also maybe Hideki Kamiya?
 
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EricTheGamerman

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Tracer's chances are just done in general. If it's not because of Jeff Kaplan saying the inclusion would be cool, it's the HK controversy Blizzard decided would be a good idea to put themselves in. Nintendo could still do it, but that's a powder keg and a half they'd be sitting on.
Nintendo literally promotes Overwatch on Switch all the time nowadays. They've kept it on the featured section of the eShop for months now and I've seen tons of advertisements both online and in store for Overwatch Switch. Nintendo just did what any company would have done and waited for the main storm to blow over before they went back to advertising Overwatch as one of the big Switch ports of 2019. They've already "inserted themselves" into the controversy, they just waited til the fervor died down and far fewer people were paying attention.

Also, they're working with Tencent to reach Chinese markets in a huge way. They almost certainly would do the same if the situation ever came up, it's just Nintendo has done an excellent job in being so apolitical as to essentially avoid being put in any sort of similar situation.

And Tracer would have likely been chosen prior to this whole ordeal too, so that's another thing to keep in mind.
 

MaddaD

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Nintendo literally promotes Overwatch on Switch all the time nowadays. They've kept it on the featured section of the eShop for months now and I've seen tons of advertisements both online and in store for Overwatch Switch. Nintendo just did what any company would have done and waited for the main storm to blow over before they went back to advertising Overwatch as one of the big Switch ports of 2019.
It just came at a bad time as well. Why buy Overwatch on Switch if you have a better console to run it and don't already own it currently? It's $59.99 for a port that struggles even docked.

They've already "inserted themselves" into the controversy, they just waited til the fervor died down and far fewer people were paying attention.
They honestly haven't. Blizzard shot itself in the foot. All Nintendo did was just watch and sorta feel awkward for witnessing it. If they wanted to insert themselves, they would have made a response to putting it for sale in the store.

Also, they're working with Tencent to reach Chinese markets in a huge way. They almost certainly would do the same if the situation ever came up, it's just Nintendo has done an excellent job in being so apolitical as to essentially avoid being put in any sort of similar situation.
If we're arguing this, Nintendo wouldn't ever let itself be put in the same situation not because of being apolitical as so much as it is being competent. If you own a pro gaming league and a contestant comes on with a political message, maybe banning him and taking away his rightfully earned winnings isn't the best way to go when your company's message is "Every voice matters."

But we need the money, so glory to China and all.

We should let this topic be. Tencent will dock our social credit score if they find out we're talking about them.
 
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Neoxon

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It just came at a bad time as well. Why buy Overwatch on Switch if you have a better console to run it and don't already own it currently? It's $59.99 for a port that struggles even docked.


They honestly haven't. Blizzard shot itself in the foot. All Nintendo did was just watch and sorta feel awkward for witnessing it. If they wanted to insert themselves, they would have made a response to putting it for sale in the store.


If we're arguing this, Nintendo wouldn't ever let itself be put in the same situation not because of being apolitical as so much as it is being competent. If you own a pro gaming league and a contestant comes on with a political message, maybe banning him and taking away his rightfully earned winnings isn't the best way to go when your company's message is "Every voice matters."

But we need the money, so glory to China and all.

We should let this topic be. Tencent will dock our social credit score if they find out we're talking about them.
Actually, the port costs $25.
 

Planet Cool

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Yes I have, & Kazooie mostly serves as the weapon more often than not.
Please back this up. Give me examples of Kazooie being a weapon for Banjo. Other than the Breegull Bash, I sincerely don't think there are any. Is Banjo forcing Kazooie to peck and kick and spit out eggs? Is he forcing her to run when he's strapped to her back? Even if you've never played a BK game (and if you haven't, shame on you, they're great!), those are some pretty weird assumptions.
 

KneeOfJustice99

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Okay, can I just point out that Banjo and Kazooie are two characters that take up one slot.
No-one is going on about Popo and Nana being a problem, or the Duck Hunt's Dog's duck being just a weapon.
I know functionally the Ice Climbers are different, but Banjo and Kazooie, just like their source material, are two very separate characters, who work together - again, just like the source material. As such - no, a female character has not yet been an individual roster character in Smash Ultimate's DLC, but the argument of Kazooie being nothing more than a weapon is, in the nicest possible way, somewhat misguided.
 

scoobymcsnack

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If we're arguing this, Nintendo wouldn't ever let itself be put in the same situation not because of being apolitical as so much as it is being competent.
We don't know what they would do, and considering that, as far as I know, Nintendo has never dealt with a situation like this, it'd probably be best not to make assumptions.
 
D

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Whatever this Kazooie discussion is, point is, we're looking for a SOLO female rep. It's going to be tremendously lamentful if she was the closest thing to female representation, but a female rep isn't entirely impossible.
 

Mushroomguy12

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As far as we can tell, the only time we get a second character from a third party series is if they are an echo.
And before Ryu was added it was unheard of to get two characters from the same company. And before Richter was added it was unheard of to get two characters from the same 3rd Party series. The point is that rules are broken all the time and I'm confidant Chun-Li (and maybe Tails) will be the first of the unique characters from a pre-existing 3rd Party.
 

MaddaD

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We don't know what they would do, and considering that, as far as I know, Nintendo has never dealt with a situation like this, it'd probably be best not to make assumptions.
If you own a pro gaming league and a contestant comes on with a political message, maybe banning him and taking away his rightfully earned winnings isn't the best way to go when your company's message is "Every voice matters" or some variant of it.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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QUOTE="Neoxon, post: 23765437, member: 267566"]I specifically said primarily, meaning default. Corrin is male by default. Likewise, you primarily control Banjo, with Kazooie effectively being Banjo’s weapon as far as Smash’s story-less self is concerned.[/QUOTE]
Stop, just, stop. Please. For your sake. You're posts are getting more pathetic by the minute. Anyone can make fun of you in a thousand ways for what you've said so far but I'm going to be as nice as possible here.

You're trying to establish....what, exactly, by proving that Corrin and B&K are "primarily male"? I'm not seeing where your argument is going. Labeling either of them as "primarily male" won't create any greater need for a female newcomer. Additionally, that's probably not the way the developers view the characters in the first place. They probably see Corrin, B&K, and to a larger extent, Robin, Villager, Inkling, and Ice Climbers as equally male and female. However someone views the characters is completely subjective. Just about everyone here agrees that Corrin and B&K are equally male as they are female.

Right now, you're grasping at straws for Kazooie. We've all pointed out to you how Kazopie acts on her own in almost all of her attacks, yet you refuse to listen. How do you respond? By posting a chart which placed the Bird and Bear in the "primarily male" category. That's laughable. It proves nothing only that you can't handle it when people bring up reasonable arguments with supportive evidence against you. But for the record, here's a breakdown of B&K's moveset:
Banjo's attacks:
Jab 1 & 2
U-tilt
Dash attack
F-air
Kazooie's attacks:
Rapid jab
N-air
D-air
B-air
U-air
D-smash
U-smash
Wonder Wing
Grenade (she throws the grenade from the backpack)
They work as a team:
Movement (Banjo walks, Kazooie runs)
Up Special (I forgot its name)
Neutral Special (Banjo aims Kazooie, Kazooie spits eggs)
Banjo uses Kazooie as a "weapon"
F-smash
F-tilt
D-tilt
As you can see, in only three attacks does Banjo use Kazooie as a "weapon" and Kazooie does nothing. Other than that, it's always the two of them either working as a team or attacking individually. And in case you haven't noticed, Kazooie attacks way more often than Banjo does. So it makes zero sense to label them as "primarily male," unless you're either A: Grasping at straws, or B: Have no clue what you're talking about. And to be honest, both seem equally likely to me. So to truly establish the division of genders in Smash, I made this chart:
my-image.png

Couple of side notes:
  • Dark Samus was placed in the female category since the game uses female pronouns to describe her
  • Despite being called "Mega Man," Mega Man was placed in the nonbinary category since it is a robot
  • Since Yoshi is a generic member of it's species, it was placed in the unisex category because it can be considered either male or female by the player
  • All Pokemon were placed in the unisex category since they can be either gender, despite Pikachu being the only one with confirmed male and female alternate costumes
  • All miis were placed in the unisex category, although they can just as easily be placed in the nonbinary category
  • The Duck Hunt Duo is considered nonbinary since it is unknown what genders they are
  • Bowser Jr. is in the unisex category because of Wendy
Moving on to your argument about Corrin, I don't think anyone here sees your point that having the male as the default costume makes them "primarily male." Yes, the male costume is the default costume for Corrin, Robin, and Villager. But I ask these questions:
  1. Does having the male costume be the default make the character any more masculine? No.
  2. Does having the male costume be the default make the character any less feminine? No.
  3. Does having the male costume be the default affect anyone's decision making in their preferred costume? No.
  4. Does having the male costume be the default take away from the appeal of the female costume? No.
  5. Does having the male costume be the default change or take away anything at all from the female costume? No.
  6. Does having the male costume be the default change the fact that there are equal male and female costumes? No.
  7. Does having the male costume be the default mean the developers were "pro-male" biased? No.
  8. Does having the male costume be the default mean the developers were biased against females? No.
  9. Do the developers even care whether or not the default costume is male or female? Probably not.
  10. Do more people still choose the female costume over the male? Yes (myself included).
With all this in mind, I don't see how anyone could possibly uphold the argument that having the default costume be male makes the character as a whole any more male than female. It's a pointless argument and for your sake I suggest you stop using it. Besides, it's been established that even if the characters in question are male over female, that doesn't edit the status quo in any way. It's true that Corrin is male by default, but that doesn't make them "primarily male" in any way. That implies that as a character, Corrin is overall more male than female, but that's simply not true. Corrin's character select starts with male and ends with female. If you want to prove something using Corrin's male default status, I suggest you use a different term than "primarily male."
TL;DR: All of your arguments make no sense and if you don't want someone else to rip you to shreds I suggest you change them.
This mentality is exactly why I was dreading Ken joining the game, even as a fan of him. Chun-Li is literally always the 2nd Street Fighter Rep in everything else, Smash is the only game to have Ryu but not her, let alone Ken. People excuse him for being an echo but still count him as a reason why Chun-Li shouldn't be in, even though Sakurai has added Mario, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem newcomers on top of other newcomers or returning veterans from the same series already being in the game.
Now this is podracing. As far as silly arguments go.

I believe it's been covered before on this very thread but I'll say it once more: It takes infinitely less time to develop a clone/echo than a normal character. Sakurai stated that it took less time to develop the Melee clones (:linkmelee::falcomelee::drmario::pichumelee::ganondorfmelee::roymelee:) than it did to make a single original fighter. That's because it's so much easier for the developers to reuse moveset data and model motion than to start from scratch, and still add much more content. And in case if it wasn't obvious, the developers had a very small window to make Smash Ultimate--only 3 or so years, probably less. That's why we had so few newcomers in the base game and much less content overall. Ken is THE echo fighter. If Ryu is Mario, he's Luigi. Ryu vs Ken is one of the most widely known rivalries in video games. He was a perfect fit in Smash.

The next thing you don't understand is that Chun-Li was probably never considered for the game in the first place. Most, if not all, of the roster is decided via the project plan that officially begins development. That means Sakurai most likely decided on Ken when the game's roster was set in stone back in 2016 (2015? I don't remember, but that's not important). Ken and Chun-Li were probably never compared and never placed side to side to see who would have been better in Smash. Chun-Li wasn't entitled to a spot in Smash. No one is. But Mario and Pokemon get so much content because they're Nintendo's two most popular and widely known IP's, in case you never realized. I'll concede on Fire Emblem, but even they had their reasons for having such a bloated amount of FE content.

Finally, I'll add this: Not getting characters you wanted doesn't suddenly entitle you to anything. I had to learn this the hard way. Maybe that's not at all what you're arguing, but it's certainly the vibe I'm getting here. Just because there are a lot of Mario, Pokemon, and FE fighters doesn't mean fans of less represented series are entitled to their picks, and it doesn't mean the devs were supposed to include Chun-Li, or anyone for that matter. Just because you didn't want Ken in the game doesn't mean an injustice was done to Chun-Li. It's virtually impossible for the developers of any game to make a decision that pleases everyone. So if you're not happy about Chun-Li not being in, get over it and stop pointing fingers and claiming injustice. You're just creating a false, romanticized vision of things.

What I don't understand about your argument is your claim that people use reasons for Ken already being in as reasons what Chun-Li shouldn't. ....What? I've never heard of a character being in Smash preventing another character from also being in. That's a pretty lousy argument. No rules would be broken by having both Ken and Chun-Li in the game, since there are no rules other than the character has to be from a video game.
TL;DR: The devs had every reason not to include Chun-Li. There's nothing to be gained by pointing fingers and pretending that she's the victim of some injustice.

I have spoken.
 

RetrogamerMax

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And before Ryu was added it was unheard of to get two characters from the same company. And before Richter was added it was unheard of to get two characters from the same 3rd Party series. The point is that rules are broken all the time and I'm confidant Chun-Li (and maybe Tails) will be the first of the unique characters from a pre-existing 3rd Party.
Yeah, I'm highly confident in Chun-Li and Tails being the first of the secondary unique 3rd party reps to get in if it ever happens. I would be more than happy with both of them, especially my gal Chun-Li.
 
D

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I'm with ya like 99% pal. Although I am avoiding the Corrin discussion because, if I can be brtually honest, that is one I'm personally a little conflicted on and not quite sure where I stand yet but I digress. Just a quick question about your chart though:

Wouldn't Mr. Game & Watch fall under the primarily male criteria? I mean, maybe it's just me that sees it that way but his name is Mr. Game & Watch after all. That by default would make him a male, wouldn't it?
 
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RetrogamerMax

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I'm with ya like 99% pal. Although I am avoiding the Corrin discussion because, if I can be brtually honest, that is one I'm personally a little conflicted on and not quite sure yet where I stand but I digress. Just a quick question about your chart though:

Wouldn't Mr. Game & Watch fall under the primarily male criteria? I mean, maybe it's just me that sees it that way but his name is Mr. Game & Watch after all. That by default would make him a male, wouldn't it?
In a sense, yes. But calling Mr. Game & Watch a guy would be like calling Dark Samus a girl. I don't see either of them as beings, but more like things artificial organisms if you will. Robot like things.
 

Mushroomguy12

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What I don't understand about your argument is your claim that people use reasons for Ken already being in as reasons what Chun-Li shouldn't. ....What? I've never heard of a character being in Smash preventing another character from also being in. That's a pretty lousy argument. No rules would be broken by having both Ken and Chun-Li in the game, since there are no rules other than the character has to be from a video game.
That's exactly what I was responding to. If you actually read the comment I was replying to, there are plenty of people who were saying that 3 Street Fighter characters would be overkill and that was the sole reason that Chun-Li "deserved to wait" for later. It seems like your the one who needs to get over the fact that some people wanted different characters than you.

The devs had every reason not to include Chun-Li.
It seems like your the one making a romanticized narrative, wording it as if they went out of their way not to include her.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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I feel like the only reason Ken is in Smash over Chun-Li is because he was easy Echo material. If not, nether of them would be in. I don't see Sakurai prioritizing any potential secondary unique 3rd party reps into Ultimate whatsoever. I think he will try to squeeze as many worlds into Ultimate as possible, that's the priority for this game. Smash 6 could be Chun-Li's time, but only time will tell.
 
D

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I feel like the only reason Ken is in Smash over Chun-Li is because he was easy Echo material. If not, nether of them would be in. I don't see Sakurai prioritizing any potential secondary unique 3rd party reps into Ultimate whatsoever. I think he will try to squeeze as many worlds into Ultimate as possible, that's the priority for this game. Smash 6 could be Chun-Li's time, but only time will tell.
A good thing to note too that Ken and Ryu have been synonymous with the franchise since the first game. Both being the only playable characters in SF1 with very similar fighting styles, hence Ken being an echo fighter way before that term was even conceived. Chun-Li didn't make her debut until the 2nd game.

I like Chun-Li but I understand why they went with Ken. Especially with echo fighters being a thing that they didn't start promoting into Smash until very recently and with clones receiving very negative connotation in past installments. Just makes more sense for it to be Ken.
 
D

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I wish more people would cater to popular female characters like Krystal, Dixie Kong, and Shantae especially the former two. In Smash 4 and Ultimate a lot of people and myself were asking for more villains and we got that with Ridley, K. Rool, and Dark Samus. Now that we got most of Nintendo's big iconic baddies I want the heroines specifically Dixie Kong, Krystal, Elma, ect.
People were also asking for more female characters after Brawl. And then they added a whole bunch in the following game.
 
D

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Eh, blame my laziness.

I do plan on making a new poll though, but I will decide on it once the final fighter is released, which will affect some of our discussion here.,



In general, what is lacking are both villains and females. It's just that the Smash community tends to cater to the more surprising and hotter additions. This is also why you kinda see a bit of male bias within speculation.

As Neoxon Neoxon once said, Smash roster-pickers are catering to the more hyping and surprising additions rather than fixing the problems the roster has (such as gender ratios).
Gender Ratio is not a problem in Smash. It’s about whether or not the character is fun to play. Not filling some fan-made Quota.
 
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