#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[Firox]

Well, it's technically the use of diversity to try and appease some audiences, but in a way tbat kinda turns them off for some reason.

I think the turnoff comes from how jarring it is to see something that is noticeably out of place. For example, LGBT people in general represent a relatively small minority of the human race. Granted, there are certain times and places in the world in which they are markedly more common, however, there are also places in the world where local culture has suppressed them to virtual non-existence.

Now then, like any media, you can often appeal to audiences better when you tailor the content to fit said audience. If you make a movie where all five main characters are gay, you can probably bet that people in San Francisco and Hollywood will love it. Places like Russia or China? Probably not so much. Why? Because you are giving them content that doesn't apply to the majority of them. They can't relate to it and it presents the notion that most, or at least a significant percentage of people, are gay which honestly isn't even realistic in most of the world anyway. Granted, if the movie is set in Hollywood or San Francisco, then the premise wouldn't be forced because it's an accurate depiction of the area's demographic.

Bottom line: If diversity fits the narrative setting in a natural way, or rather, accurately depicts the setting, then it's NOT forced. On the flip side, if you shove diversity into a setting that would realistically be otherwise just to pander to a specific crowd, then it IS forced. The term "forced" should basically be interpreted as "artificial" diversity instead of natural.

One more example of this would be the scene from Avengers Endgame where they did the all-female hero round-up scene. I have no problem whatsoever with the showcasing of the heroines (it was actually really cool to see how many there are) however I, and many others, feel the presentation was noticeably unnatural. All of the sudden there were no male heroes to be found. It was as if the men suddenly vanished completely and the women alone were left to take on Thanos and the bulk of his army. Forced. Instead of the awkward shot of all the women appearing out of nowhere, they simply could have emerged from the fray as Captain Marvel started to push forward, one by one. Each could be showcased clearing the way in a manner that better meshes with the flow of battle. Such a method would be smoother and still demonstrate the powers and contributions of all the women without feeling blatantly staged. I mean, I guess some people need to have stuff shoved in their faces to catch it, but less disjointed methods are easier for people to swallow.

 

[Night Gale]

The thing is, the opposite has been going on for far longer, and a lot of people assume it is just how things are. If you want an example, just look at video games. There's still people saying s*** like it's mostly just guys that play. No, it's mostly just guys they try to market to. It's about a 50/50 split.

There was a ton of sexism involved in the early phases of the MCU, with regards to marketing, how women were treated in-universe (that is, when they were actually shown), and irl. That one little moment in Endgame was a "look at how far we've come," and it seems jarring to some because women weren't highlighted throughout most of the MCU's run, despite the fact that everybody was watching those movies.

 

[Neoxon]

The thing is, the opposite has been going on for far longer, and a lot people assume it is just how things are. If ya want an example, just look at video games. There's still people saying s*** like it's mostly just guys that play. No, it's mostly just guys they try to market to. It's about a 50/50 split.

There was a ton of sexism involved in the early phases of the MCU, with regards to marketing, how women were treated in-universe (that is, when they were actually shown), and irl. That one little moment in Endgame was a "look at how far we've come," and it seems jarring to some because women weren't highlighted throughout most of the MCU's run, despite the fact that everybody was watching those movies.

There’s a reason for that, Ike Perlmutter (A.K.A. The reason MvCI didn’t have any X-Men or F4 characters) was the cause of much of said sexism in the MCU on top of him being a penny-pincher. He lost any influence over the MCU films early in Phase 3’s run.

For example, Perlmutter only allowed Captain Marvel if they also made Inhumans. After Perlmutter was booted......we all know what happened afterwards.

 

[StarBot]

I stop taking the whole “oh, we know when you personally make a female / mintories character for fun and when you try to forced it!” seriously

Because people are now retroactively trying to put characters like Alex form Half Life to latter box after since Half Life Alex was announced

The postergirl of how doing a character like her correctly in 2006, is now consider to much in 2020

 

[Deleted member]

There’s a reason for that, Ike Perlmutter (A.K.A. The reason MvCI didn’t have any X-Men or F4 characters) was the cause of much of said sexism in the MCU on top of him being a penny-pincher. He lost any influence over the MCU films early in Phase 3’s run.

For example, Perlmutter only allowed Captain Marvel if they also made Inhumans. After Perlmutter was booted......we all know what happened afterwards.

Which makes me say...

Capcom, release a proper MvC4 or bust.

 

[Spongeboob]

Beep Boop
Okay, so I'm not against the idea of more females per se, but I'm against the idea of more females. Like I said, if the only reason you want a character is because of one trait of that character, then please, by all means, **** off. I just find the idea of wanting a character for that reason to be disrespectful to the character, whether it be because "we need more women" or "we need more villains". While I'd be just as against it if someone wanted a male character for "being male", it seems that there are way more people being vocal about wanting characters for being female than those who want characters for being male.

Additionally, you don't have to share a physical identity with a character in order to identify with them. If you have a hard time identifying with a character because they don't share your physical qualities, then YOU are the problem, not the character. (If it's the way they're written, then that's another story.) Anyways, while it is a reason to want a character, it's not the only reason to want/like a character. (I don't think making that argument, but I felt like saying it anyways.) Maybe you'd want a character because you think they'd be fun to play as? Or perhaps it's because they look cool? Did you grow up with the character? Oh, and I think the fact that there's a gender imbalance in the roster is merely trivia. It's just something you'd here in a trivia challenge or something, akin to the ratio of heroes:villains or humans:nonhumans. There's nothing wrong with the gender imbalance, especially since there's no evidence pointing towards a bias towards certain "minorities" or "majorities" or anything like that (other than being NINTENDO, of course). Also, I think focusing on "representation" and "diversity" derails us from looking at actual problems such as global warming. However, that's off-topic, so I'm not gonna dive too deep into that can of worms. I'm not trying to say that it's wrong to want characters from a minority. Rather, I'm saying that their physical identities should come second to the character's other qualities. Also, I think it's wrong to focus on a character's(') physical identity. It throws away the character's(') other qualities in favor of physical identity. So I'd disagree with putting in characters from "minorities" for the sake of it. They should be treated like any other potential fighter would. Also, wouldn't it be better to find out who that audience likes rather than have a character for the sake of appealing to that audience? By doing the latter you're assuming what the audience likes, forcing diversity, and in a sense (probably) doing something racist by implying that the audience in question would like that character just because they share one or two qualities with them. So someone that the audience likes would get a better reception than someone who that audience can "identify" with.

I know not every character from a "minority group" is forced diversity. However, it is a very real thing. While natural diversity is a good thing, forced diversity is not.
What I'd call Natural Diversity: Nobody's making a big deal about how "x" character is part of "y" minority. "x" has a personality other than "y", just like any other character. (Nobody's asking for "a good reason" for these characters. It's just that they shouldn't be treated any different from the "normal" people, and thus they shouldn't be given any special treatment. I think Finn from Star Wars is a good example of this, as there's nothing special about him being a "minority". He just happens to be, and it doesn't hurt the integrity of anything.) The melanin level of a character's skin is an artistic choice, so they could just happen to be from a group and... something.
What I'd call Forced Diversity: A character from a minority... uh... having being a part of said minority be the only thing about them. Like it's their "personality" or something. Or if they're just there for brownie points or to avoid being called racist, sexist or whatever. In other words, token characters.

So there. I said something. Again. This is probably terrible. While there are quite of few potential fighters that I think would be cool that happen to be female that I may or may not have mentioned here, now that I think about it, the only one I genuinely want is Arle. Maybe Tifa, but I'm not sure.

The thing is, the opposite has been going on for far longer, and a lot of people assume it is just how things are. If you want an example, just look at video games. There's still people saying s*** like it's mostly just guys that play. No, it's mostly just guys they try to market to. It's about a 50/50 split.

There was a ton of sexism involved in the early phases of the MCU, with regards to marketing, how women were treated in-universe (that is, when they were actually shown), and irl. That one little moment in Endgame was a "look at how far we've come," and it seems jarring to some because women weren't highlighted throughout most of the MCU's run, despite the fact that everybody was watching those movies.

While I don't have enough info to come to a conclusion on what gender plays the most worldwide, I have enough info to say that, at least in the United States, men make up the majority of gamers. According to Statista, in 2019, Men made up 54% of all gamers whereas women made up 46%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/
As for the marketing... citation needed. I haven't seen any statistics on the marketing towards either gender in regards to video games as a whole, so I'm not gonna give any. Also could you give some examples of sexism in the early phases of the MCU? Because I'm not seeing it.

Which makes me say...

Capcom, release a proper MvC4 or bust.

Yes please. Also I hope the X-Men return.

 

[zumaddy]

Anyways....

I want Style Savvy stylist in. She's from a franchise that's been on the DS and 3DS, the games are very popular in Europe (and pretty popular in America), she's a good sim rep, heck Iwata had a hand in the 2nd game IIRC. She could use a hair dryer, throw makeup into people's faces, smash someone with a coat hanger etc. And like Peach's side smash with the changing weapon, each coat hanger could have a different outfit on it. I honestly think it would be really unique to have her in, and from a pretty unusual title in comparison to other Nintendo lineups. If you haven't played the games I probably sound ridiculous, but they're actually quite fun. This is coming from someone who also likes gorey action games and long RPGs.

Sakurai said being fun is more important than being iconic, so a fun wacky moveset from a girly fashion game could be just the ticket imo.

 

[osby]

While I don't have enough info to come to a conclusion on what gender plays the most worldwide, I have enough info to say that, at least in the United States, men make up the majority of gamers. According to Statista, in 2019, Men made up 54% of all gamers whereas women made up 46%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/
As for the marketing... citation needed. I haven't seen any statistics on the marketing towards either gender in regards to video games as a whole, so I'm not gonna give any. Also could you give some examples of sexism in the early phases of the MCU? Because I'm not seeing it.

54/46 isn't that far from 50/50. And even if it was, most video games still don't reflect that, since a significant portion of them still include women as only side characters and/or in less number.

Marketing part is obvious: A lot of video games feature fanservice catered towards straight men but it's rare to see the opposite (even then it's almost always more subdued).

Spoiler: MCU

For a long time, there were no female heroes with their own movies and they could only be main characters as male characters' love interests or as the token girl in a team (Gamora and Natasha). That's sexist, no matter how you look at it. And no, "most popular heroes are men" excuse is invalid when they gave Guardians their own movies before Captain Marvel.

 

[Deleted member]

While I don't have enough info to come to a conclusion on what gender plays the most worldwide, I have enough info to say that, at least in the United States, men make up the majority of gamers. According to Statista, in 2019, Men made up 54% of all gamers whereas women made up 46%.

That is sadly the case. But still, 46% is still 46%. It is reasonable for them to still cater to this audience.

 

[zumaddy]

Let's also mention that a lot of women are buying Switch Lite.

""We're seeing a higher percent of female consumers buying Nintendo Switch Lite than buy the flagship," Nintendo of America President Doug Bowser says. "We see Lite as a great opportunity for us to expand with that audience." https://fortune.com/2019/11/15/nintendo-doug-bowser-switch-lite-black-friday-sales/

"Furukawa added: “We are starting to see a higher percentage of female users among new Nintendo Switch Lite purchasers compared to the status before the launch of Nintendo Switch Lite, across the world. This signals further expansion of the female consumer base. " https://www.videogameschronicle.com...acting-higher-percentage-of-new-female-users/

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

The whole 50/50 debate also includes games outside of what could be considered the mainstream videogame market, i.e. mobile games alá Candy Crush, FarmVille, etc.. If you get into more detail and look into specific areas, you will see that there is still a significant disparity between male and female audience, where the male portion outweighs the female portion by a significant degree. I'm not trying to stir up a "what makes a gamer a gamer" discussion but a lot of arguments form on this notion in which people regard to or disregard those games. My mother is a gamer, because she really loves that Tetris app I installed on her tablet but I wouldn't call her a "gamer".

The mainstream video game market (action games, sports games, RPGs) caters to a male audience because the audience is still mostly male. On the other hand, ads for mobile games (puzzle and the like) are mostly more feminine in nature and cater to their audience. Marketing departments know what their demographic is and act accordingly. We usually see companies target males because that is the area we looking into on the internet, following newssites and convetions. On that note, the internet, too, is also male dominated, in most areas at least, in regards to gaming. Turn on the TV (at least in Germany) and you see a lot more video game ads that target families or a female audience.

I've seen this graph on this board already somewhere but can't find it now, so here it is again.

Quantic Foundry - 2017

Not saying that that the female portion is insignificant but a minortiy is still a minority. Saying that all gamers are distributed 50/50 is technically right but paints a wrong image for most discussions.

 

[zumaddy]

Uh.... does the chart above me count Mario Kart as a racing game? Because Mario Kart is really popular with female (and casual and younger) players, which definitely seems above 4%. Are they just counting Forza and the like for that category?

EDIT: "Each genre we analyzed contained between 3-5 game titles"

OK, they definitely didn't sample Mario Kart for the racing %.

 

[Deleted member]

Uh.... does the chart above me count Mario Kart as a racing game? Because Mario Kart is really popular with female (and casual and younger) players, which definitely seems above 4%. Are they just counting Forza and the like for that category?

EDIT: "Each genre we analyzed contained between 3-5 game titles"

OK, they definitely didn't sample Mario Kart for the racing %.

And I wonder why honestly. They should reconsider the choice of games surveyed. Not saying that this is a bad survey per se.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

And I wonder why honestly. They should reconsider the choice of games surveyed. Not saying that this is a bad survey per se.

Hard to put Mario Kart in the same category as Forza for example. While both are technically racing games, a cart racer is significantly different to a more realistic racing game. Maybe have Kart-Racer as a genre of its own, even if there aren't that many games to choose from.

 

[zumaddy]

I'm not a huge fan of that survery tbh. 2017 data, questionable genre definitions, and a small range of games for each genre. Missing out a game that has high female players means the results could be pretty incorrect. The FPS data for example is confusing me because I remember reading two different articles in 2017/2018 about the disproportionately high amount of female Overwatch players, which may have been left out if they don't count team based FPS as 'FPS', but again is a problem with genre definition skewing data.

 

[KayaMarley]

I think the guns getting jumped a little quickly here. While yes, there hasn't been any newcomer DLC girl characters, they announced that there is going to be even more than the initial planned 5. Looking at how the characters that have been added are Persona's Joker, Dragon Quests Hero, Banjo - Kazooie's... well, Banjo & Kazooie, and King of Fighter's Fatal Fury Terry Bogard, it's clear they are trying to hit every big character that they can. while I do think that there are a lot of big name female video game characters, i will admit that there aren't a lot that have made revolutionary changes to the media as a whole, aside from a few like Lara Croft, which i'm not really sure fit the Smash bros aesthetic. It's kinda tricky, but I think it's far too soon to be worried about this, especially when there's still plenty of great, and very likely female candidates out there (my main pick for which being Edelgard). I will say though, that Sakurai has decided to pass on some seriously amazing character, both male and female (Soma Cruz, Shantae, Dixie Kong, Zant, Wolf Link & Midna, Skull Kid, Krystal, and many many more), but that only means the ones we are getting, are sure to be legendary, and if the current roster of DLC inclusions is any sign of whats to come, it's gonna be truly amazing. (I'm still holding out for Neku, Sylux, and Edelgard. If I got those three, I would never need another smash game. honestly Neku would be enough for me, but thats not what this thread's about lmao).

The whole 50/50 debate also includes games outside of what could be considered the mainstream videogame market, i.e. mobile games alá Candy Crush, FarmVille, etc.. If you get into more detail and look into specific areas, you will see that there is still a significant disparity between male and female audience, where the male portion outweighs the female portion by a significant degree. I'm not trying to stir up a "what makes a gamer a gamer" discussion but a lot of arguments form on this notion in which people regard to or disregard those games. My mother is a gamer, because she really loves that Tetris app I installed on her tablet but I wouldn't call her a "gamer".

The mainstream video game market (action games, sports games, RPGs) caters to a male audience because the audience is still mostly male. On the other hand, ads for mobile games (puzzle and the like) are mostly more feminine in nature and cater to their audience. Marketing departments know what their demographic is and act accordingly. We usually see companies target males because that is the area we looking into on the internet, following newssites and convetions. On that note, the internet, too, is also male dominated, in most areas at least, in regards to gaming. Turn on the TV (at least in Germany) and you see a lot more video game ads that target families or a female audience.

Not saying that that the female portion is insignificant but a minortiy is still a minority. Saying that all gamers are distributed 50/50 is technically right but paints a wrong image for most discussions.

I definitely disagree with this. The only reason I play videogames as much as i do is because BOTH my mom and dad do. I grew up with a controller in my hand. My mom played, and beat, A Link to the Past while she was pregnant with me. Many people i know who are girls play TONS of videogames, and while i can't speak for the whole world, neither can a survey that's on such a small scale. of course it's not 50/50, nothing in life is, but what little gap there was, is rapidly closing more and more, and personally I'd love nothing more than to see most of the world be gamers (I know you weren't saying you wouldn't like that, but I just wanted to state that). And just because I feel like sharing this, I got my Mom and my cousin both a switch a while back (one as a birthday present, and the other as a christmas present) and they both love them. My whole family has our own switches and we all play together a ton. it's super neat, and this is definitely how the future should be

 

[Deleted member]

I think the guns getting jumped a little quickly here. While yes, there hasn't been any newcomer DLC girl characters, they announced that there is going to be even more than the initial planned 5. Looking at how the characters that have been added are Persona's Joker, Dragon Quests Hero, Banjo - Kazooie's... well, Banjo & Kazooie, and King of Fighter's Fatal Fury Terry Bogard, it's clear they are trying to hit every big character that they can. while I do think that there are a lot of big name female video game characters, i will admit that there aren't a lot that have made revolutionary changes to the media as a whole, aside from a few like Lara Croft, which i'm not really sure fit the Smash bros aesthetic. It's kinda tricky, but I think it's far too soon to be worried about this, especially when there's still plenty of great, and very likely female candidates out there (my main pick for which being Edelgard). I will say though, that Sakurai has decided to pass on some seriously amazing character, both male and female (Soma Cruz, Shantae, Dixie Kong, Zant, Wolf Link & Midna, Skull Kid, Krystal, and many many more), but that only means the ones we are getting, are sure to be legendary, and if the current roster of DLC inclusions is any sign of whats to come, it's gonna be truly amazing. (I'm still holding out for Neku, Sylux, and Edelgard. If I got those three, I would never need another smash game. honestly Neku would be enough for me, but thats not what this thread's about lmao).

Part of the reason that's worrying me is the missed potential. There's more than just Lara Croft;while she is iconic, there are some that can just fit the bill as big as hers. My problem now is that if this approach continued on, we may never get to see any, and that is upsetting.

Another thing is if future DLC is locked to first parties. Sure we might get a female character then, but...assuming FP5 is male, and it goes back to first party, then it's going to be a huge missed oppurtunity. Like "Oh, I would've gotten Arle" or "Lara should've been in that earlier pass". Overall, this is a Morton's fork that just gonna lead to something that will disappoint one way or another.

We're not jumping the gun;we're fearing missed potential. Tell that to those who got AT'd or Spirit'd. They would've said that their fighter would've been playable but no. That's missed oppurtunity. First character I think would come to mind is Shovel Knight; as much as everyone wanted him playable, he's an assist, though he'd be amazing as a playable fighter.

 

[KayaMarley]

Part of the reason that's worrying me is the missed potential. There's more than just Lara Croft;while she is iconic, there are some that can just fit the bill as big as hers. My problem now is that if this approach continued on, we may never get to see any, and that is upsetting.

Another thing is if future DLC is locked to first parties. Sure we might get a female character then, but...assuming FP5 is male, and it goes back to first party, then it's going to be a huge missed oppurtunity. Like "Oh, I would've gotten Arle" or "Lara should've been in that earlier pass". Overall, this is a Morton's fork that just gonna lead to something that will disappoint one way or another.

We're not jumping the gun;we're fearing missed potential. Tell that to those who got AT'd or Spirit'd. They would've said that their fighter would've been playable but no. That's missed oppurtunity. First character I think would come to mind is Shovel Knight; as much as everyone wanted him playable, he's an assist, though he'd be amazing as a playable fighter.

I totally get what your saying, and im not knocking it at all (i would have listed more than Lara Croft but i was lazy), many of the characaters who have been made into spirits and assist trophies are characters I very badly wanted in (shantae and skull kid being a few of the bigger ones for me), but while i do understand the concern, I still think it's jumping the gun. the reason for that is because, while yes, the 5th DLC character is likely to be a male character (i just kinda get the feeling it will be), there hasn't been any word of the DLC coming after that to only be nintendo reps, and I feel like it would be foolish to assume that's the case. most likely they will kinda be half in half, a little more leaning towards nintendo, but still a healthy bit of third party.

The problem with an amazing crossover game like this is that most people are going to be left disappointed. it's physically impossible to get everyones favorites in here (and i totally think certain characters like Duck hunt and wii fit could have been left out for better ones but thats besides the point). Trying to add all of that AND keep it all balanced would be absolutely insane. The roster is already 75 characters large (counting the 5th, not yet released, character) and adding even more (likely to be 10 according an old datamine, but could easily be more if they have since changed the amount of available character slots). So don't fret, we will definitely get some good female character representation, it just may not be the ones your dying to see get in, which is always a bit of a bummer still though, you never know

Also, i don't think Sakurai will pass up a character if it has amazing potential. not good, but truly amazing. it has to be weeded down like this because there are just SOOO many characters, and lots of people want lots of different things. You can't make everyone happy, and Sakurai knows this better than anyone lol, but that doesn't mean he still won't try. gotta love the man for that at least.

The three areas we are missing quite a bit of coverage in character wise right now, is Heavy characters, Evil characters, and Female character. The picks I'd like for covering these, are Nightmare (both heavy and Evil, but can also be good, if they give him Siegfried as an alt skin) and Edelgard (girl rep). my brother really wants Amaterasu from Okami to get in. I think that'd be dope as all hell.

sorry for the long reply.

 

[Neoxon]

Which makes me say...

Capcom, release a proper MvC4 or bust.

Perlmutter still has a hand in the Marvel Games cookie jar, but Disney buying Fox will ensure that the X-Men & F4 aren't left out like that ever again. Likewise, he's a bit more hands-off than he used to be now that he's helping a certain orange-tinted jerk.

Either way, if we do get MvC4, it won't be until after SFVI is out. And going by the Capcom Cup 2020 winner not auto-qualifying for Capcom Cup 2021, we could be getting SFVI for next-gen systems in Early 2021.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Which makes me say...

Capcom, release a proper MvC4 or bust.

It would be nice to have more than 6/36 female characters this time.

 

[KatKit]

Okay, so I'm not against the idea of more females per se, but I'm against the idea of more females.

I am by no means the grammar police, but I'm just gonna let ya know that this was worded poorly. You're against the idea of more women. You're against the idea of adding more female characters. But simply referring to women as "females" is wrong.

Like I said, if the only reason you want a character is because of one trait of that character, then please, by all means, **** off.

"She looks cool" is a valid reason enough to want a character in, particularly in a topic asking which women we'd genuinely like to see in Smash. Your gatekeeping is unnecessary. From what I've seen, people are naming characters that would bring radically different designs, personalities, archetypes, fighting styles, and/or franchises to Smash. They just so happen to be awesome female characters, and there's nothing wrong with that or wanting more of it. Especially since what we have in Smash is lacking, to say the least.

I just find the idea of wanting a character for that reason to be disrespectful to the character, whether it be because "we need more women" or "we need more villains".

I think removing cool characters from box art, remodeling games to eliminate them entirely, saying you don't want those characters in games you publish because they won't succeed is disrespectful. Many of the characters we're listing went through extra hurdles to exist, and a lot of extra care was put into them to make them stand out. I think Chun-li's creator had the right idea:

[We] wanted Street Fighter II to be more entertaining than its predecessor. That also helps explain how Chun-Li came to be. Having a female character in the game completely changes the game's dynamic, she brightens up the entire palette. We needed a reason for her to fight, and so an evil empire [of M. Bison] came to mind. To be honest, I spent some time worrying about putting Chun-Li, the heroine, into such a plain setting. Ordinarily, you don't see women participating in global martial arts tournaments. Just by adding her we were starting to push things to the fun side. I didn't think about it at the time, but thinking about it now, from the moment we put Chun-Li into the game we were already pushing things towards the full-on entertainment side of things.

And no one here wants women just because, but there's nothing with that. The fact of the matter is, when people talk about wanting more villains or whatever else, it never draws the kind of backlash we have to deal with.

It seems that there are way more people being vocal about wanting characters for being female than those who want characters for being male.

Gee, I wonder why that is?

You don't have to share a physical identity with a character in order to identify with them. If you have a hard time identifying with a character because they don't share your physical qualities, then YOU are the problem, not the character.

You don't, but the videogame industry disagrees with this idea bigtime. Otherwise, we wouldn't have nearly as many male protagonists. And I mean, as a little girl, it'd be a lot easier for me to look up to and identify with Ribbon Girl, than say, Agent 47 from Hitman.

While I don't have enough info to come to a conclusion on what gender plays the most worldwide, I have enough info to say that, at least in the United States, men make up the majority of gamers. According to Statista, in 2019, Men made up 54% of all gamers whereas women made up 46%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/

That's... not much of a difference (and the number is going to skew in favor of women, if the mobile gaming explosion continues its current trend). It definitely doesn't explain the industry's marketing tactics (especially since she already pointed out that men are much more likely to swap genders in-game than women, and that that contributes to female characters' popularity and high percentage use when both options are available. But that's getting off topic), and people's general perception of the average person who plays games because of said marketing.

As for the marketing... citation needed. I haven't seen any statistics on the marketing towards either gender in regards to video games as a whole, so I'm not gonna give any.

That's a bold statement considering that games with female-led protagonists receive a fraction of advertising budget on average (~60% less), and women were and still are disproportionately represented in the industry.

You can argue sales or whatever nonsense, but even genres that typically draw more female players prioritized male demographics overseas. See: Puyo Puyo and Panel de Pon for reference.

The statement I made earlier about remodeling and/or removing women from games entirely, and hiding or removing them from promotional material was more common than I'd like to admit. Same for publishers dismissing the idea of using female protagonists.

Forreal... you'd think Nintendo would highlight a popular, multi-million selling series that did well in Japan, Europe, and North America like Style Savvy a bit more, but they don't.

Also could you give some examples of sexism in the early phases of the MCU? Because I'm not seeing it.

Does rewriting Seth Killian into the main villain when it was intended to be Maya Hansen count? Or introducing a founding Avenger member (Wasp) super late because known racist/sexist chairman Ike Perlmutter was apart of the creative committee and girls don't sell toys? Or the fact that it took getting rid of him to make something like Captain Marvel (the 21st movie in the MCU) happen. Even if we ignore the dumb, sexist gags that were sprinkled in every so often and completely unchallenged in-universe, the few women they had were either poorly written love interests, recieved a lot "male gaze", or some combination of the two. There's a reason people joke about early MCU failing the Bechdel test (i.e. two named female characters talking to each other about something other than a guy) more often than not.

Anyways....

I want Style Savvy stylist in. She's from a franchise that's been on the DS and 3DS, the games are very popular in Europe (and pretty popular in America), she's a good sim rep, heck Iwata had a hand in the 2nd game IIRC. She could use a hair dryer, throw makeup into people's faces, smash someone with a coat hanger etc. And like Peach's side smash with the changing weapon, each coat hanger could have a different outfit on it. I honestly think it would be really unique to have her in, and from a pretty unusual title in comparison to other Nintendo lineups. If you haven't played the games I probably sound ridiculous, but they're actually quite fun. This is coming from someone who also likes gorey action games and long RPGs.

Sakurai said being fun is more important than being iconic, so a fun wacky moveset from a girly fashion game could be just the ticket imo.

She's my most wanted! I recognize you from the Style Savvy support thread, ahaha. BTW, great moveset concept, amgia.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

She looks cool" is a valid reason enough to want a character in, particularly in a topic asking which women we'd genuinely like to see in Smash. Your gatekeeping is unnecessary.

They are talking about only wanting one because "shes a girl"

there are better ways to ask what a person means other then hostility and becoming their english teacher

 

[Neoxon]

I am by no means the grammar police, but I'm just gonna let ya know that this was worded poorly. You're against the idea of more women. You're against the idea of adding more female characters. But simply referring to women as "females" is wrong.



"She looks cool" is a valid reason enough to want a character in, particularly in a topic asking which women we'd genuinely like to see in Smash. Your gatekeeping is unnecessary. From what I've seen, people are naming characters that would bring radically different designs, personalities, archetypes, fighting styles, and/or franchises to Smash. They just so happen to be awesome female characters, and there's nothing wrong with that or wanting more of it. Especially since what we have in Smash is lacking, to say the least.



I think removing cool characters from box art, remodeling games to eliminate them entirely, saying you don't want those characters in games you publish because they won't succeed is disrespectful. Many of the characters we're listing went through extra hurdles to exist, and a lot of extra care was put into them to make them stand out. I think Chun-li's creator had the right idea:



And no one here wants women just because, but there's nothing with that. The fact of the matter is, when people talk about wanting more villains or whatever else, it never draws the kind of backlash we have to deal with.



Gee, I wonder why that is?



You don't, but the videogame industry disagrees with this idea bigtime. Otherwise, we wouldn't have nearly as many male protagonists. And I mean, as a little girl, it'd be a lot easier for me to look up to and identify with Ribbon Girl, than say, Agent 47 from Hitman.



That's... not much of a difference (and the number is going to skew in favor of women, if the mobile gaming explosion continues its current trend). It definitely doesn't explain the industry's marketing tactics (especially since she already pointed out that men are much more likely to swap genders in-game than women, and that that contributes to female characters' popularity and high percentage use when both options are available. But that's getting off topic), and people's general perception of the average person who plays games because of said marketing.



That's a bold statement considering that games with female-led protagonists receive a fraction of advertising budget on average (~60% less), and women were and still are disproportionately represented in the industry.

You can argue sales or whatever nonsense, but even genres that typically draw more female players prioritized male demographics overseas. See: Puyo Puyo and Panel de Pon for reference.

The statement I made earlier about remodeling and/or removing women from games entirely, and hiding or removing them from promotional material was more common than I'd like to admit. Same for publishers dismissing the idea of using female protagonists.

Forreal... you'd think Nintendo would highlight a popular, multi-million selling series that did well in Japan, Europe, and North America like Style Savvy a bit more, but they don't.



Does rewriting Seth Killian into the main villain when it was intended to be Maya Hansen count? Or introducing a founding Avenger member (Wasp) super late because known racist/sexist chairman Ike Perlmutter was apart of the creative committee and girls don't sell toys? Or the fact that it took getting rid of him to make something like Captain Marvel (the 21st movie in the MCU) happen. Even if we ignore the dumb, sexist gags that were sprinkled in every so often and completely unchallenged in-universe, the few women they had were either poorly written love interests, recieved a lot "male gaze", or some combination of the two. There's a reason people joke about early MCU failing the Bechdel test (i.e. two named female characters talking to each other about something other than a guy) more often than not.



She's my most wanted! I recognize you from the Style Savvy support thread, ahaha. BTW, great moveset concept, amgia.

Technically speaking, Perlmutter only allowed Captain Marvel under the condition that they also made Inhumans (& we all know how that worked out after Perlmutter was booted). But I'd imagine that Perlmutter's removal helped pave the way for Black Widow's movie to happen as well as the massive uptick in both consistent quality & diversity within the MCU.

But by & large, yeah, I agree. To be honest, while I was pretty vocal about the need for more diversity in games, it was seeing my little cousins gravitate to characters like Twintelle & Min Min in ARMS as well as other cousins who visited gravitating towards the likes of Black Panther, Miles Morales, Storm, Luke Cage, & Falcon in MUA3 that made me realize the issues that currently plague Smash's roster.

 

[MaddaD]

Capcom, release a proper MvC4 or bust.

Maybe this time the characters won't look like melted plastic and the infinity gems you paid $120 for won't be easter eggs.

But now, since the arguments died down, I shall rank some popular female picks and their chances to get in.

Arle - I wouldn't even know, maybe? Not likely?
Azura - One of my favorite picks, but she's a supporting character in an FE game behind numerous other picks, with each having far better chances than her.
ARMS Reps - Not likely, considering Nintendo seems to have lost interest/confidence in the IP
Blyeth - Likely, with a female alt costume. Fits the female fighter perfectly.
Dixie Kong - Not likely, we just got a DK rep. Move pool is pretty diverse.
Edelgard - Best girl has a chance! An FE character that would stand out
KOS-MOS - Hahaha.exe
Reimu - I'd love, being a ToeHoe fan, but I'd have a hard time believing than ZUN/Nintendo would manage it. Not unless Sakurai threatened to pour a beer down the drain.
Saber - Probably not. Same reason as above, and I doubt it would be a stellar fit
Senran Kagura Reps - Deconfirmed with Mai.
Shantae - Nope.
Any Street Fighter Character - We just got Ken and another fighting game rep.
Xenoblade Reps - I could see them doing it since Rex got cut just before development.
Captain Syrup - I wish.
Terri Bogard - God, I wish.

 

[Night Gale]

Unlike Mai, I believe Senran Kagura can dodge the censors.

They are talking about only wanting one because "shes a girl"

Only wanting one because they're a girl is a compelling enough reason. Kids also play Super Smash.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

There's a reason people joke about early MCU failing the Bechdel test (i.e. two named female characters talking to each other about something other than a guy) more often than not.

I've never heard of anyone taking the Bechdel test seriously and frankly I think it's dumb. No test should ever be used as a standard for judging or criticizing any work. All "studies" that conclude that passing the Bechdel Test means more success than failing it lack anything that actually supports their data other than a "Correlation equals Causation" argument. Setting rules to try to encourage people to include certain things in their writings has never changed a thing. Frankly, I think the idea of the Bechdel Test is laughable. I'm in the middle of creative writing on my own and I know damn well that I've already passed the Bechdel test, not because I wanted to pass it in the first place, but because it's not hard at all to let diversity and inclusion come naturally. It's better to encourage people to let diversity come naturally than to try to force it using rules.

 

[MaddaD]

Unlike Mai, I believe Senran Kagura can dodge the censors.

That depends on what girl would be playable, as many shinobi outfits are pretty revealing if not more.

 

[Night Gale]

I've never heard of anyone taking the Bechdel test seriously and frankly I think it's dumb. No test should ever be used as a standard for judging or criticizing any work. All "studies" that conclude that passing the Bechdel Test means more success than failing it lack anything that actually supports their data other than a "Correlation equals Causation" argument. Setting rules to try to encourage people to include certain things in their writings has never changed a thing. Frankly, I think the idea of the Bechdel Test is laughable. I'm in the middle of creative writing on my own and I know damn well that I've already passed the Bechdel test, not because I wanted to pass it in the first place, but because it's not hard at all to let diversity and inclusion come naturally. It's better to encourage people to let diversity come naturally than to try to force it using rules.

Imagine if Hulk and Thor were the only named men in Thor Ragnarok, and the only time they spoke to one another was to talk about Banner's romantic relationship with Betty Ross. Now imagine if that happened in ten different movies in a cinematic universe. I think she pointed it out because the movies actively avoided giving women screen time, and s*** like that did not help with what little they had to work with.

 

[Deleted member]

Unlike Mai, I believe Senran Kagura can dodge the censors.

But then again, it's Nintendo calling the shots on the design. ASsuming that they opt to use their Shinobi Transformations, there's gonna be tons of CERO discussion going on.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Why is the poll question worded so incredibly poorly to act as some sort of litmus test for participants? You could have done any number of options to poll people's more specifically as opposed to a "Yes/No" question that has no nuance and doesn't give any sort of more specific way to answer how people think female fighters should be implemented into Smash. It just seems like an awful way to try to poll this topic.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I wish more people would cater to popular female characters like Krystal, Dixie Kong, and Shantae especially the former two. In Smash 4 and Ultimate a lot of people and myself were asking for more villains and we got that with Ridley, K. Rool, and Dark Samus. Now that we got most of Nintendo's big iconic baddies I want the heroines specifically Dixie Kong, Krystal, Elma, ect.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Platform Gals

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Platform gals

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Too bad it doesn't have my gal Krystal in it. But it's pretty awesome anyways.

 

[Dutch Raikuna]

So I've talked about wanting a female rep on the KOS-MOS Speculation thread and as Lesley once noted I have taken an interest in seeing one.
I really think a female rep is needed for one simple reason; to widen the audience demographic. As for who, don't know. I just think for that reason is enough.

 

[Deleted member]

Why is the poll question worded so incredibly poorly to act as some sort of litmus test for participants? You could have done any number of options to poll people's more specifically as opposed to a "Yes/No" question that has no nuance and doesn't give any sort of more specific way to answer how people think female fighters should be implemented into Smash. It just seems like an awful way to try to poll this topic.

Eh, blame my laziness.

I do plan on making a new poll though, but I will decide on it once the final fighter is released, which will affect some of our discussion here.,

I wish more people would cater to popular female characters like Krystal, Dixie Kong, and Shantae especially the former two. In Smash 4 and Ultimate a lot of people and myself were asking for more villains and we got that with Ridley, K. Rool, and Dark Samus. Now that we got most of Nintendo's big iconic baddies I want the heroines specifically Dixie Kong, Krystal, Elma, ect.

In general, what is lacking are both villains and females. It's just that the Smash community tends to cater to the more surprising and hotter additions. This is also why you kinda see a bit of male bias within speculation.

As Neoxon once said, Smash roster-pickers are catering to the more hyping and surprising additions rather than fixing the problems the roster has (such as gender ratios).

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: MCU

For a long time, there were no female heroes with their own movies and they could only be main characters as male characters' love interests or as the token girl in a team (Gamora and Natasha). That's sexist, no matter how you look at it. And no, "most popular heroes are men" excuse is invalid when they gave Guardians their own movies before Captain Marvel.

Gamora is a token girl now? I don't agree with this at all. If anything she's probably the most developed GOG character so far being Thanos' step daughter and the last of her species and all. I think she's earned her spot in the GOG and I don't think it's fair to the character to downgrade her to token status. In regards to the movies specifically, I felt she was represented pretty well. So she fell in love with a dude? Big deal. If she was treated exactly the same but turned out to be a lesbian the whole time, we'd be having the opposite conversation right now. So no, in her case, I do not think it's sexist.

Some folks would say you'd be sexist by calling her a token girl by default and undermining her value. She's got a lot of history and merit even before being apart of the GOG.

 

[Planet Cool]

Re: the Bechdel test, Alison Bechdel has said that people took it more seriously than she meant it. Also, her favorite movie (Groundhog's Day) doesn't pass the test. Meaning that while it is something important to consider if you want art that doesn't treat women like props, it's not end-all be-all.

More generally, I think "I want X because she's a girl and I want more girls in Smash" is as good a reason as any to want a character. It's a pretty harmless preference. I personally prefer animal/nonhuman characters (or very stylized human characters like Mario and Wario) and hope that DLC5 falls under that umbrella, but no one's ever given me grief over it.

 

[Deleted member]

More generally, I think "I want X because she's a girl and I want more girls in Smash" is as good a reason as any to want a character. It's a pretty harmless preference. I personally prefer animal/nonhuman characters (or very stylized human characters like Mario and Wario) and hope that DLC5 falls under that umbrella, but no one's ever given me grief over it.

It's just a topic that opens up a huge can of worms when someone tries to oppose it. I mean, sure, you can oppose KOS-MOS, Geno, Shantae, etc. with reasonable stuff as to why they wouldn't get in, but when it comes to females, you have people like me who will feel attacked by such remarks that oppose them. In other words, gatekeeping females is just a topic speculators use if they don't want to trigger anyone.

 

[Neoxon]

Maybe this time the characters won't look like melted plastic and the infinity gems you paid $120 for won't be easter eggs.

But now, since the arguments died down, I shall rank some popular female picks and their chances to get in.

Arle - I wouldn't even know, maybe? Not likely?
Azura - One of my favorite picks, but she's a supporting character in an FE game behind numerous other picks, with each having far better chances than her.
ARMS Reps - Not likely, considering Nintendo seems to have lost interest/confidence in the IP
Blyeth - Likely, with a female alt costume. Fits the female fighter perfectly.
Dixie Kong - Not likely, we just got a DK rep. Move pool is pretty diverse.
Edelgard - Best girl has a chance! An FE character that would stand out
KOS-MOS - Hahaha.exe
Reimu - I'd love, being a ToeHoe fan, but I'd have a hard time believing than ZUN/Nintendo would manage it. Not unless Sakurai threatened to pour a beer down the drain.
Saber - Probably not. Same reason as above, and I doubt it would be a stellar fit
Senran Kagura Reps - Deconfirmed with Mai.
Shantae - Nope.
Any Street Fighter Character - We just got Ken and another fighting game rep.
Xenoblade Reps - I could see them doing it since Rex got cut just before development.
Captain Syrup - I wish.
Terri Bogard - God, I wish.

ARMS sold to Nintendo's expectations (it did pretty damn well, especially for a new fighting game IP), & Yabuki expressed interest in doing a sequel, so I'd imagine that we'll see the franchise again at some point. As for Byleth, our hope is for characters who are primarily female. Byleth would most likely be male by default.

 

[Deleted member]

ARMS sold to Nintendo's expectations (it did pretty damn well, especially for a new fighting game IP), & Yabuki expressed interest in doing a sequel, so I'd imagine that we'll see the franchise again at some point. As for Byleth, our hope is for characters who are primarily female. Byleth would most likely be male by default.

Pretty much. Byleth is usually advertised with the male variant.

SO yeah, variants don't count UNLESS the main alt is female (Inkling)/