#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[Mushroomguy12]

The only two female villains we have are a costume and an echo . Would be nice to have one with a full 8 costumes and unique moveset.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Moving on to your argument about Corrin, I don't think anyone here sees your point that having the male as the default costume makes them "primarily male." Yes, the male costume is the default costume for Corrin, Robin, and Villager. But I ask these questions:

1. Does having the male costume be the default make the character any more masculine? No.
2. Does having the male costume be the default make the character any less feminine? No.
3. Does having the male costume be the default affect anyone's decision making in their preferred costume? No.
4. Does having the male costume be the default take away from the appeal of the female costume? No.
5. Does having the male costume be the default change or take away anything at all from the female costume? No.
6. Does having the male costume be the default change the fact that there are equal male and female costumes? No.
7. Does having the male costume be the default mean the developers were "pro-male" biased? No.
8. Does having the male costume be the default mean the developers were biased against females? No.
9. Do the developers even care whether or not the default costume is male or female? Probably not.
10. Do more people still choose the female costume over the male? Yes (myself included).

With all this in mind, I don't see how anyone could possibly uphold the argument that having the default costume be male makes the character as a whole any more male than female. It's a pointless argument and for your sake I suggest you stop using it. Besides, it's been established that even if the characters in question are male over female, that doesn't edit the status quo in any way. It's true that Corrin is male by default, but that doesn't make them "primarily male" in any way. That implies that as a character, Corrin is overall more male than female, but that's simply not true.

The thing about Corrin, is that having to go out of the way to select the female variant affects people's perception of the character. It's the "Alph problem" that was discussed earlier:

While I personally have issues with not counting dual gender characters who are male on the CSS, Alph is a real good example of how that can negatively affect a character's perception, I admit. Almost nobody puts Alph in Smash fanart, and even fanart that showcases, like, all 7 Koopalings and sometimes the first female Villager and male Inkling, will still leave out Alph, as a result.

Poor kid. Make him an Echo Fighter already.

 

[Deleted member]

We're also lacking female villains. I nominate Medusa and Captain Syrup to start.

That's literally intersectionality and it's a really good thing.

Gender Ratio is not a problem in Smash. It’s about whether or not the character is fun to play. Not filling some fan-made Quota.

Gender ratio tends to be towards how the audiences gravitate to a character. It is a problem for some, considering that there are many possible female candidates that ARE fun to play.

 

[TheYungLink]

The thing about Corrin, is that having to go out of the way to select the female variant affects people's perception of the character. It's the "Alph problem" that was discussed earlier:

I see your point, but Corrin's kind of an exception. Almost nobody I know likes the male version and all I see, everywhere, is female Corrin.

That may just be me, though.

 

[Night Gale]

We're also lacking female villains. I nominate Medusa and Captain Syrup to start.

Sarah Kerrigan, Grunty, and Carmen Sandiego, if we're talking 3rd parties.

 

[Deleted member]

I see your point, but Corrin's kind of an exception. Almost nobody I know likes the male version and all I see, everywhere, is female Corrin.

That may just be me, though.

No wonder they used the female variant as the default for FE Warriors...though probably this was when Fates is quite established already.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

The thing about Corrin, is that having to go out of the way to select the female variant affects people's perception of the character. It's the "Alph problem" that was discussed earlier:

Is pressing the triggers to swap alternate costumes really going out of one's way? It takes two seconds to find the alt you want.

I'm guessing the reason no one uses Alph is because....not many like Alph over Olimar.

 

[Wrathful_Scythe]

Don't even know who Alph is. Then again, I only played Pikmin 1 and 2.

I more often than not hear people refer to Robin and Corrin as her instead of him and I wager that the female variants are more popular. At least I prefer the female variants, so that might just be my bias. Not sure were the huge issue is in pressing "R" once. Had to be one or the other as the first choice. Or make it a 50/50 chance so no one is able to pick one - true equality!

 

[scoobymcsnack]

And before Ryu was added it was unheard of to get two characters from the same company. And before Richter was added it was unheard of to get two characters from the same 3rd Party series. The point is that rules are broken all the time and I'm confidant Chun-Li (and maybe Tails) will be the first of the unique characters from a pre-existing 3rd Party.

I'm not saying she should wait because of rules, it's mostly just personal preference that I would rather have other third party characters before her. (Sorry if this wasn't portrayed well in my original post, my bad!)

Despite being called "Mega Man," Mega Man was placed in the nonbinary category since it is a robot

I agree with everything in your post except for Mega Man and Mr Game and Watch. They're both clearly being labeled as him. Labeling them as nonbinary, especially Mega Man, seems to be equally grasping at straws as putting BK in mostly male. Just my opinion tho

The thing about Corrin, is that having to go out of the way to select the female variant affects people's perception of the character. It's the "Alph problem" that was discussed earlier:

Like others have said, changing the alt isn't hard at all and takes zero effort, so this doesn't seem like an issue and is hardly "going out of the way".

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with everything in your post except for Mega Man and Mr Game and Watch. They're both clearly being labeled as him. Labeling them as nonbinary, especially Mega Man, seems to be equally grasping at straws as putting BK in mostly male. Just my opinion tho

I'd have to classify Mega Man as male too. Often in the games they use the male pronouns when refering to him within the dialogue, even by his in-game creator Dr. Light. I mean, look at Roll. She clearly has feminine features but I haven't seen anyone call her genderless. Same thing about the in-game pronouns apply to her too.

I guess the question is, are all robots by default genderless? And if that's the case, where does KOS-MOS stand?

 

[Deleted member]

I guess the question is, are all robots by default genderless? And if that's the case, where does KOS-MOS stand?

It mostly depends on the likeness, as they're often designed quite ambiguously. You have for example, Alisa from Tekken 7 who is a robot but is identified as female. You have SFV Seth who's a male-coded AI inside a female body. Then you have our home ROB who's technically just a basic nongendered robot design.

I could say that KOS-MOS is designed and identified as female in-series, and that's a consideration.

 

[Deleted member]

It mostly depends on the likeness, as they're often designed quite ambiguously. You have for example, Alisa from Tekken 7 who is a robot but is identified as female. You have SFV Seth who's a male-coded AI inside a female body. Then you have our home ROB who's technically just a basic nongendered robot design.

I could say that KOS-MOS is designed and identified as female in-series, and that's a consideration.

I agree. By this logic, we should categorize Mega Man in the male category. Nothing ambiguous about him when he literally has the word 'Man' in his name.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree. By this logic, we should categorize Mega Man in the male category. Nothing ambiguous about him when he literally has the word 'Man' in his name.

That is so.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I agree with everything in your post except for Mega Man and Mr Game and Watch. They're both clearly being labeled as him. Labeling them as nonbinary, especially Mega Man, seems to be equally grasping at straws as putting BK in mostly male. Just my opinion tho

I'm being literal here. Yes, both Mega Man and G&W are personfied using male pronouns, but Mega Man is a robot and thus has no gender and G&W is....something. We don't really know what G&W is and whether or not he has a gender. The only reason I put PAC-MAN is the male category is because we know that he's a male because of the existence of Ms. PAC-MAN. If Smash were to introduce a "Ms. Game-and-Watch," then I'll concede. Fair enough though overall, I can see why Mega Man is viewed as male.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm being literal here. Yes, both Mega Man and G&W are personfied using male pronouns, but Mega Man is a robot and thus has no gender

Genuinely curious but if this is the case, would KOS-MOS fall on your list under genderless assuming she were to get in?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I'm being literal here. Yes, both Mega Man and G&W are personfied using male pronouns, but Mega Man is a robot and thus has no gender and G&W is....something. We don't really know what G&W is and whether or not he has a gender. The only reason I put PAC-MAN is the male category is because we know that he's a male because of the existence of Ms. PAC-MAN. If Smash were to introduce a "Ms. Game-and-Watch," then I'll concede. Fair enough though overall, I can see why Mega Man is viewed as male.

Well Mega Man has Splash Woman and Roll and other female robots in his game so I don’t see how that’s different from Ms. Pac Man.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Genuinely curious but if this is the case, would KOS-MOS fall on your list under genderless assuming she were to get in?

Yep. Although like I said, I see the female appeal since she's personified as female.

Well Mega Man has Splash Woman and Roll and other female robots in his game so I don’t see how that’s different from Ms. Pac Man.

Because Mega Man is a robot. There is nothing biological about him, unless I'm horribly mistaken. And if something isn't alive, they can't have a real gender. They can certainly be personified as one of the two sexes, but in a literal sense, they are neither male nor female.

At least we can assume that Ms. PAC-MAN is alive.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

I'm being literal here. Yes, both Mega Man and G&W are personfied using male pronouns, but Mega Man is a robot and thus has no gender and G&W is....something. We don't really know what G&W is and whether or not he has a gender. The only reason I put PAC-MAN is the male category is because we know that he's a male because of the existence of Ms. PAC-MAN. If Smash were to introduce a "Ms. Game-and-Watch," then I'll concede. Fair enough though overall, I can see why Mega Man is viewed as male.

It still seems just as much like grasping at straws. We have no reason to believe Mr Game and Watch is anything but male, considering he is "Mr" Game and Watch and is referred to by male pronouns. There are characters that appear on Flat Zone that are clearly meant to be female, even if they're not called "Ms Game and Watch".

Again, I agree with pretty much every other character's placement, those two are the only ones I would change.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

If Smash were to introduce a "Ms. Game-and-Watch," then I'll concede.

Nothing official but there's fan art galore for such a concept. Would make a great echo fighter. If Ms. Pac Man ever got in it would be fun to see both of the oldest characters in Smash get their Minnie Mouse equivalents.

Spoiler

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I'm being literal here. Yes, both Mega Man and G&W are personfied using male pronouns, but Mega Man is a robot and thus has no gender and G&W is....something.

idk about you but I dont normaly go around calling woman Mr

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Nothing official but there's fan art galore for such a concept. Would make a great echo fighter. If Ms. Pac Man ever got in it would be fun to see both of the oldest characters in Smash get their Minnie Mouse equivalents.

Spoiler

She's adorable and I want her to be canon

 

[MaddaD]

Nothing official but there's fan art galore for such a concept. Would make a great echo fighter. If Ms. Pac Man ever got in it would be fun to see both of the oldest characters in Smash get their Minnie Mouse equivalents.

Spoiler

What a cool design. I'd make an OC outta this.

 

[Deleted member]

Nothing official but there's fan art galore for such a concept. Would make a great echo fighter. If Ms. Pac Man ever got in it would be fun to see both of the oldest characters in Smash get their Minnie Mouse equivalents.

Spoiler

Whoever made this, thank you. You make me wanna use Mr. G&W one day. #3Frames

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Yep. Although like I said, I see the female appeal since she's personified as female.

Because Mega Man is a robot. There is nothing biological about him, unless I'm horribly mistaken. And if something isn't alive, they can't have a real gender. They can certainly be personified as one of the two sexes, but in a literal sense, they are neither male nor female.

At least we can assume that Ms. PAC-MAN is alive.

There’s a difference between biological sex and gender identity, even if robots don’t have biological features there still are many that are engineered to have male or female attributes. Megaman has a male identity while Roll has a female identity.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Like others have said, changing the alt isn't hard at all and takes zero effort, so this doesn't seem like an issue and is hardly "going out of the way".

I see your point. But I will say that the issue is more that the default variant is the one that gets the spotlight in the marketing. (though there are exceptions such as female Corrin in the classic mode mural, and male Inkling in the World of Light trailer)

 

[scoobymcsnack]

I see your point. But I will say that the issue is more that the default variant is the one that gets the spotlight in the marketing. (though there are exceptions such as female Corrin in the classic mode mural, and male Inkling in the World of Light trailer)

I would agree that this is mostly true, with the few exceptions like the ones you pointed out.

 

[Deleted member]

Yep. Although like I said, I see the female appeal since she's personified as female.

Yeeeah, no. I'm sensing a double standard here pal. I've been with ya on everything whether the conversation was about Kazooie or forced diversity, but I can't agree with ya on this.

You ever seen Mega Man without his helmet? It screams "Look at me, I'm a cute little boy.". He's unique and not like any other robot. Dr. Light created Mega Man with the interpretation of a real boy iin his mind and IIRC, and I could be wrong, but the intent of making Mega Man and Roll were to have 2 different kind of robots. One boy, and one girl with 2 completely different roles to satisfy Dr. Lights needs. Yes, they are robots but if you're going to be honest with your argument and be fair to the chart you made, you'd have to classify KOS-MOS under the genderless as well, at least by your own logic.

Because Mega Man is a robot. There is nothing biological about him, unless I'm horribly mistaken. And if something isn't alive, they can't have a real gender. They can certainly be personified as one of the two sexes, but in a literal sense, they are neither male nor female.

What is it that makes KOS-MOS any different? Is it the boobs? It's gotta be the boobs, right?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

This is the part I take issue with, but I feel like if I elaborate too much I'll be mostly repeating what I already said in the previous paragraphs. I just fail to see anything malicious behind this desire. And you're fueling this with political views way more directly than anyone else in the thread, and unnecessarily judging people for it.

You do have a point with this. I admit that this could be just me reading too much between lines and understanding something different from the posters' original intentions.



And as you say, I may be focusing a bit too much on the concept of realism. I just don't see realistic diversity often associated with a game like Smash because of the nature of most of its fictional characters. If Smash had a game world that at least made some kind of parallel to our own world, like how the MCU works, it would make more sense to me.

 

[Deleted member]

What is it that makes KOS-MOS any different? Is it the boobs? It's gotta be the boobs, right?

Lotsa stuff. She's technically a weapon master.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

It still seems just as much like grasping at straws. We have no reason to believe Mr Game and Watch is anything but male, considering he is "Mr" Game and Watch and is referred to by male pronouns. There are characters that appear on Flat Zone that are clearly meant to be female, even if they're not called "Ms Game and Watch".

Again, I agree with pretty much every other character's placement, those two are the only ones I would change.

Yeeeah, no. I'm sensing a double standard here pal. I've been with ya on everything whether the conversation was about Kazooie or forced diversity, but I can't agree with ya on this.

I'm not gonna repeat myself any more than I already have. Personally, I don't think it matters what you put on something and where--if it's a robot, it has no gender. I'll concede on Mr. Game and Watch though, I see your point now. Since most characters in Smash are assigned a gender, I can understand why some people see G&W as defaulting to male. Benefit of the doubt, really. But as far as Mega Man goes, I still hold on to the belief that he has no gender regardless of how much he is personified. It's all a matter of perception.

Because I seem to be the minority here, I'll at least make this chart so we can close the topic and discuss something more relevant.

Spoiler

I also changed a few other things on the chart to make it more accurate.

Now what I don't understand is people claiming that I'm grasping at straws, because in the grand scheme of things however you perceive Mega Man or Mr. Game and Watch doesn't affect the point I was trying to make in my original post: That Banjo & Kazooie and Corrin can't and shouldn't be considered "primarily male." Mega Man and Mr Game & Watch have nothing to do with that.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Now what I don't understand is people claiming that I'm grasping at straws, because in the grand scheme of things however you perceive Mega Man or Mr. Game and Watch doesn't affect the point I was trying to make in my original post: That Banjo & Kazooie and Corrin can't and shouldn't be considered "primarily male." Mega Man and Mr Game & Watch have nothing to do with that.

I perceived it as you trying to add more weight to your argument, but I misunderstood. Sorry about that!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I perceived it as you trying to add more weight to your argument, but I misunderstood. Sorry about that!

No need to apologize, I probably should have been more clear in the first place.

 

[Neoxon]

• The version of Corrin on the Character Select Screen is male. The version pushed the most is male. The one on the "Everyone is Here" banner is male. Hell, Female Corrin is branded as "Player 2" for her Amiibo (I.E. secondary). As much as I would prefer Female Corrin to be the default since she's clearly more popular by a wide margin, she's the alternate costume. This is what I mean by primarily male. In the same point of logic, Inkling & Wii Fit Trainer are primarily female because their female forms are the default, while Robin & Villager are primarily male since their male forms are the default.
• As for Banjo & Kazooie, you primarily control Banjo, who uses Kazooie as a weapon for most of the attacks. There are some moves where Kazooie takes control, namely the running animation pulled out of Banjo-Tooie, but those are few & far between (I'd give a specific number if my little brother didn't borrow my Switch). And unlike their home games, there isn't much story or dialogue to give either of them much personality, which especially hurts Kazooie's case (a shame, as I always loved her dialogue in the Banjo-Kazooie games). Banjo is the main leader of the duo, hence primarily male. If Midna ended up playable instead of an Assist Trophy while riding Wolf Link, they'd be primarily female because Midna would be calling most of the shots.

What I'm arguing for are for characters who are either exclusively female (Ex: Twintelle, Arle, Chun-Li, etc.) or characters who, while having selectable genders, would be female by default (Ex: Monster Hunter, since the female variant was the only variant in MvCI, so there's at least some chance that Capcom could ask Sakurai to do the same).

 

[Deleted member]

• As for Banjo & Kazooie, you primarily control Banjo, who uses Kazooie as a weapon for most of the attacks. There are some moves where Kazooie takes control, namely the running animation pulled out of Banjo-Tooie, but those are few & far between (I'd give a specific number if my little brother didn't borrow my Switch). And unlike their home games, there isn't much story or dialogue to give either of them much personality, which especially hurts Kazooie's case (a shame, as I always loved her dialogue in the Banjo-Kazooie games). Banjo is the main leader of the duo, hence primarily male. If Midna ended up playable instead of an Assist Trophy while riding Wolf Link, they'd be primarily female because Midna would be calling most of the shots

Frankly, I think it's pretty sexist of you to undermine and dehumanize the only female in the DLC atm. You can keep objectifying her all you want man, but your perception is a little skewed.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Frankly, I think it's pretty sexist of you to undermine and dehumanize the only female in the DLC atm. You can keep objectifying her all you want man, but your perception is a little skewed.

Well Kazooie isn’t human, so....

 

[Deleted member]

Well Kazooie isn’t human, so....

Doesn't matter. Kazooie has human qualities like speaking English and having a personality.

Regardless of whether she's human or not, he's still depriving her of these traits.

 

[MaddaD]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Nevermind. Back to sleep until February.

 

[Spongeboob]

Nintendo has announced a Pokémon Direct for January 9th, 2020! https://t.co/rIdhnD6DOR pic.twitter.com/EhFRDOk3Gr

— Nintendo Wire (@NinWire) January 7, 2020

Nevermind. Back to sleep until February.

I was kind of thinking of a general Nintendo Direct next week.

 

[MaddaD]

I was kind of thinking of a general Nintendo Direct next week.

It's plausible, as some have pointed out that a Nintendo Direct tends to follow a Pokemon one. I'll still remain skeptical.

 

[Deleted member]

Nintendo has announced a Pokémon Direct for January 9th, 2020! https://t.co/rIdhnD6DOR pic.twitter.com/EhFRDOk3Gr

— Nintendo Wire (@NinWire) January 7, 2020

Nevermind. Back to sleep until February.

Guess I'll just sleep out of this one. Of we won't get anything next week, then most likely it'll be February.

Thing is, I'm kinda in a hassle with school and stuff by February.