Social Ultimate Social Thread: Under Construction. Be Back Soon!

[Deleted member]

cant I just buy your soul now beforhand?

uh...How much are we talking?

 

[Just a penguin]

Technically, all the characters you talked about did get into smash because mii fighters can have the names of the character you're talking about and all you wrote to distinguish them was their name.

 

[Deleted member]

If a Rhythm Heaven character gets in, I'l write a 10 paragraph essay on why it makes me so happy...

I am saving this one as well!

 

[SnakeFighter64]

My stance in this topic is that we shouldn't just stop at LGBTQ on its own. It's much better to integrate any character within that threshold into the setting in a manner that accepts them enough to be deemed respectable. Some of these boil down to accurately portraying the politics behind the oppression of LGBTQ versus wanting to portray the characters like they're no different from the straight/cis groups. As they say, you can't have your cake and eat it.

I just think it's way more engaging to put LGBTQ characters in situations that are universal to pretty much everyone's will to survive. You'd be doing the whole group justice if you write them as normal everyday teenagers who are just trying to overcome primal fears with the aid of family and friends (and in this case, I mean the whole spectrum). There are games that already nod at LGBTQ themes, but they never over-blow the tropes to an extent that it's all you know about the characters. Undertale does a pretty neat job at this, since each character has their own quirks that make them stand out beyond just "Sexually-confused Skeleton" and "Lesbian Fish!Pearl" to name a few.

I am never going to advocate for one dimensional characters. And being LGBTQ is not a personality. But I still think the themes should be pretty forefront, you need to show that the characters are people just people who have to deal with these extra complications.

 

[Deleted member]

Technically, all the characters you talked about did get into smash because mii fighters can have the names of the character you're talking about.

birds cant legally have this high of an iq

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Is Layton gets in smash, Ill finally sleep
If Sora gets in smash, Ill eat more then coffee
If erdrik get in smash, Ill.. um... do both things

 

[TMNTSSB4]

its too late for me man

if elma gets in i will pass on into valhalla

greeted by the horns of elma gang

already i can hear them calling, but they get louder and louder as if they're telling me "oh god oh **** xcx music will be added in the 3.0 update therefore ruining one of the biggest things going for her oh god he can't hear us he thinks we're just blowing horns oh man he's hyping himself up too much" but im pretty sure it's just horns

would you still die if Elma doesn’t get in? Cause don’t either way

 

[Zinith]

Technically, all the characters you talked about did get into smash because mii fighters can have the names of the character you're talking about and all you wrote to distinguish them was their name.

Um, yeah... I've seen how that would fail...

 

[Deleted member]

My stance in this topic is that we shouldn't just stop at LGBTQ on its own. It's much better to integrate any character within that threshold into the setting in a manner that accepts them enough to be deemed respectable. Some of these boil down to accurately portraying the politics behind the oppression of LGBTQ versus wanting to portray the characters like they're no different from the straight/cis groups. As they say, you can't have your cake and eat it.

I just think it's way more engaging to put LGBTQ characters in situations that are universal to pretty much everyone's will to survive. You'd be doing the whole group justice if you write them as normal everyday teenagers who are just trying to overcome primal fears with the aid of family and friends (and in this case, I mean the whole spectrum). There are games that already nod at LGBTQ themes, but they never over-blow the tropes to an extent that it's all you know about the characters. Undertale does a pretty neat job at this, since each character has their own quirks that make them stand out beyond just "Sexually-confused Skeleton" and "Lesbian Fish!Pearl" to name a few.

I personally enjoy stories that just let LGBT people exist a lot more(such as RWBY for example) because it eventually gets tiring to see people like you constantly being oppressed the same way you are in real life, BUT there's abolute validity in being confrontational about it when it's a reality we all live through. And Persona is all about being confrontational, a theme like that absolutely fits.
No one is saying it has to be the only focus of the story but making it one if the main themes in a series all about exploring human themes is something me and many other LGBT folks want and would appreciate.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

uh...How much are we talking?

well I have a good amount in my bank, 300

... your soul doesnt cost 300 does it?

 

[Deleted member]

Is Layton gets in smash, Ill finally sleep
If Sora gets in smash, Ill eat more then coffee
If erdrik get in smash, Ill.. um... do both things

In which case, I guess I hope Edrick gets in?
I’ll be much more comfortable knowing that you live on more than coffee and sleep deprivation.

 

[Deleted member]

If Erdrick gets in, I will make a fanfiction about me and my Switch.

 

[SneakyLink]

birds cant legally have this high of an iq

Maybe...

Just a penguin is secretly the disguise some ancient deity uses.

That, or I’ve watched one too many minutes of Adventure Time.

 

[Deleted member]

Um, yeah... I've seen how that would fail...

I don’t even know who that’s meant to be.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

If Scorpion gets in. As promised I'll be eating those two dirty socks.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

If Sora gets into Smash I'll cry.

That's it. Carry on.

 

[Deleted member]

would you still die if Elma doesn’t get in? Cause don’t either way

no
if elma doesnt get in i will persist on this mortal coil until the heat death of the universe like some kind of unkillable vermin

so yall better hope shes in

 

[SnakeFighter64]

That's not the point I'm making. Please don't misunderstand a point and then make passive aggressive jabs as it.

It's a bit of a semantical argument, but I'm arguing that game centered around LGBTQ representation wouldn't work. A game that naturally explores themes that involve LGBTQ representation could work. I think Persona 4 does this well enough, with Kanji at the very least addressing toxic masculinity, if not homosexuality, and Naoto addressing the struggles of a dual gender identity (being one but wishing you were the other).

That's almost what I'm saying.

If done naturally, and in relation to another theme, I think Persona 6, or any game for that matter, could tell a compelling LGBTQ narrative. I have no doubt about that. But to focus an entire game solely on it and make that the most important thing about it, in a series that's dealt with compelling, philosophical topics like "death," "truth," and "rebellion" seems incongruent with the rest of the series. Double K gave a good list of themes that could tie into LGBTQ representation and still make it feel like a Persona game, and there are plenty of ways it could happen.

I'm arguing against it being the sole, obvious focus. Not it happening at all.

I think we actually kind of agree. Like, the only reason I keep insisting on it being at the forefront is because I don’t want some people to be able to “interpret away the gay”. It needs to be obviously there. But obviously you need to dive into the philosophy and themes that living as part of this community engenders. The kinds of things that Double K brings up.

I personally enjoy stories that just let LGBT people exist a lot more(such as RWBY for example) because it eventually gets tiring to see people like you constantly being oppressed the same way you are in real life, BUT there's abolute validity in being confrontational about it when it's a reality we all live through. And Persona is all about being confrontational, a theme like that absolutely fits.
No one is saying it has to be the only focus of the story but making it one if the main themes in a series all about exploring human themes is something me and many other LGBT folks want and would appreciate.

Also this.

 

[Deleted member]

If Erdrick gets in, I will make a fanfiction about me and my Switch.

I actually do not care about Erdrick. I just made this post for reasons.

 

[Deleted member]

well I have a good amount in my bank, 300

... your soul doesnt cost 300 does it?

I mean, 300 Dollars is 300 Dollars

 

[Deleted member]

My stance in this topic is that we shouldn't just stop at LGBTQ on its own. It's much better to integrate any character within that threshold into the setting in a manner that accepts them enough to be deemed respectable. Some of these boil down to accurately portraying the politics behind the oppression of LGBTQ versus wanting to portray the characters like they're no different from the straight/cis groups. As they say, you can't have your cake and eat it.

I just think it's way more engaging to put LGBTQ characters in situations that are universal to pretty much everyone's will to survive. You'd be doing the whole group justice if you write them as normal everyday teenagers who are just trying to overcome primal fears with the aid of family and friends (and in this case, I mean the whole spectrum). There are games that already nod at LGBTQ themes, but they never over-blow the tropes to an extent that it's all you know about the characters. Undertale does a pretty neat job at this, since each character has their own quirks that make them stand out beyond just "Sexually-confused Skeleton" and "Lesbian Fish!Pearl" to name a few.

Jumping in to say I think the way they handled Kung Jin in Mortal Kombat X, of all franchises, was actually quite good. His sexuality itself isn't a major point of his character, and no other characters in the story make it a big deal of it either. However, he has fears over the Shaolin rejecting him over it and his ability to properly live up to his legacy, and, despite Raiden's sympathies and re-assurance that they wouldn't care, those same fears are presented as a major drive in who he is and chooses to be. He's portrayed in the same light as all of the other characters, but the story also delves into the struggles a gay man probably would face in his situation.
Mileena and Tanya are also bisexual but that's rarely touched on so.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Do I smell the start of another Banjo vs Steve debate?

If so...

uh....

Professor Pestor for Smash anyone?

Y'all are sleeping on the best Microsoft rep...

A Zookeeper from Zoo Tycoon...

He could summon animal stampedes by throwing animal feed, he'd sweep the floors, and would even wield a tranquilizer gun for certain attacks...

 

[Zinith]

I don’t even know who that’s meant to be.

Oh dear, I thought you'd know me by now

Spoiler

 

[Just a penguin]

Y'all are sleeping on the best Microsoft rep...

A Zookeeper from Zoo Tycoon...

He could summon animal stampedes by throwing animal feed, he'd sweep the floors, and would even wield a tranquilizer for certain attacks...

Automatically beats

 

[SneakyLink]

Y'all are sleeping on the best Microsoft rep...

A Zookeeper from Zoo Tycoon...

He could summon animal stampedes by throwing animal feed, he'd sweep the floors, and would even wield a tranquilizer for certain attacks...

Baron Von Ghoul would be a better rep.

Because we need a character in their pajamas!

*cries in

 

[Deleted member]

Oh dear, I thought you'd know me by now

Spoiler

Oh, I see.
Nope, that one did not work out very well at all. . .

 

[Deleted member]

I have basically no input on the current conversation. But what I will say is, there are ways to include representation of LGBTQ, People of Color, and other oppressed peoples through the plot itself. Certainly.

I think the unfortunate part of the conversation is that social ideologies in some of our native countries may not respect the values of other countries, regardless of our agreement with it. I can’t say for sure that it’ll happen, but then again, i’m also not the best person to say.

As a straight guy, i’m all for making games more inclusive. But if they’re going to be inclusive, they should absolutely, unequivocally, make the plots the least generic as possible. If every plot of an oppressed person is, “Look at me, i’m X and i’m oppressed” it makes that character seem like one part of a larger group.

Just because people are LGBTQ it doesn’t mean every single person is the same. I mean, even my gay brother has been somewhat negative about bi-sexual people (which I find weird but also fascinating. Several of my students partake in colorist against each other based on their skin color.

No pun intended, but these sorts of things are never black and white. Everything is in the grey area, but that makes things way more interesting.

There is so much media with heterosexual people in mind as the main demographic in mind, I don't see the big deal if a piece of media has LGBT people in mind. Nevermind that there are pieces of media that are just entirely about the oppression of a certain people and for good reason.

Granted it's almost never video games that portray such issues directly, also for a reason, since they're still seen as mostly just entertainment, mindless entertainment even. Whenever something deep is in a game it's almost always subtext.

And speaking of that message, I don't think most LGBT people simply want them to be portrayed as just "oppressed". In fact from my experience a lot of people understand that LGBT people are oppressed, but they don't really understand why. Especially when they disregard a lot of stuff as completely harmless. There's definitely things that non-lgbt people can relate to when it comes to these instances of oppression. Hence why LGBT issues are often shown through lots of subtext in media rather than upfront. Though I don't think LGBT matters should be shunned for being shown upfront like they often are. The reason why they're even mostly subtext in the first place stems from censorship.

Y'all are sleeping on the best Microsoft rep...

A Zookeeper from Zoo Tycoon...

He could summon animal stampedes by throwing animal feed, he'd sweep the floors, and would even wield a tranquilizer for certain attacks...

Zoo Tycoon should work like Duck Hunt. With the zookeeper and all kinds of animals. LMAO

 

[Iridium]

I would honestly pay money for a playable Masahiro Sakurai. I wouldn't care how broken he ends up being, but the plot twist...

 

[Zinith]

Anyways, if Boshi comes back--and I'm not talking about in Smash, just in general--I'll make a celebratory video with help from all of ya!!!

 

[Deleted member]

Anyways, if Boshi comes back--and I'm not talking about in Smash, just in general--I'll make a celebratory video with help from all of ya!!!

I will contribute by eating some food from my fridge.

 

[Deleted member]

ok here's the deal with lgbt representation

a. make sure they aren't harmful stereotypes
ok now this is the hardest part, you have to be a decent human being

b. uuuh thats pretty much it, though if being lgbt is a big part of their character like they're sexually repressed or are having a hard time adjusting to their gender identity or whatever hire actual lgbt people or at least ask them for their input
seriously i see so many straight or cis writers **** something up that was super easy to handle with grace if you just had one person read it and go "hey this is a bit weird"

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I think we actually kind of agree. Like, the only reason I keep insisting on it being at the forefront is because I don’t want some people to be able to “interpret away the gay”. It needs to be obviously there. But obviously you need to dive into the philosophy and themes that living as part of this community engenders. The kinds of things that Double K brings up.

I'm pretty sure we don't agree. It comes down to our approach to LGBTQ representation.

From what I understand of your argument you want the flow of theme exploration to be LGBTQ - > Other themes. The entire game would be an exploration of LGBTQ characters and the aspects that come with that.

What I would do is Other Themes - > LGBTQ.

Have a broader, more general theme, and use that to explore LGBTQ narratives through different party members or social links. Those can be upfront. There are LGBTQ party members, but it's not the entire party. Again, think Persona 4, except if Yosuke was bi (like he was supposed to be), Kanji were gay, and Naoto were trans. I get that with the latter two in OG Persona 4 you could "interpret the gay away" (and indeed the gay was interpreted away in continuations of the story), but I agree with @Prince Alucard that exploring the themes and motifs alone can be, and would be effective within a Persona game.

 

[Deleted member]

https://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-social-thread-say-it-ain’t-so-reg’-aka-entering-an-era-of-bowser.467706/page-1468#post-23054767
Also yes I DID cave in to your degeneracy about scythes

1/10 only one scythe move and it's a throw, you expect me to spam that how?

Spoiler

Serious answer is that I like the idea of a character with an ult version of every single move they have even if I don't get the references.
I also think that such a character is perfect to have distinct moves that reference a bunch of stuff so that the ultimate version of the moves is also distinct

 

[ClaTheBae]

Guys I hate myself Mii Gunner
Hands down the most annoying character in this ****ing game

 

[Zinith]

I will contribute by eating some food from my fridge.

Hehehe, assuming you can meet a Yoshi's standards on that...

 

[Noipoi]

If any character gets in i'll learn to respect myself.

Nah just kidding.

 

[KarneraMythos]

I am never going to advocate for one dimensional characters. And being LGBTQ is not a personality. But I still think the themes should be pretty forefront, you need to show that the characters are people just people who have to deal with these extra complications.

Unfortunately, some people push for tropes without considering what else could be done to make the groups they advocate stand out more. I am not of the opinion that a character has to be 100% relatable per se, but I tend to gravitate toward characters that have qualities to them that make them feel whole, or at least intriguing enough that you want to know them IRL.

Jumping in to say I think the way they handled Kung Jin in Mortal Kombat X, of all franchises, was actually quite good. His sexuality isn't a major point of his character, and no other characters in the story make it a big deal of it either. However, he has fears over the Shao Lin rejecting him over it and his ability to properly live up to his legacy, and, despite Raiden's sympathies and re-assurance that they wouldn't care, those same fears are presented as a major drive in who he is and chooses to be. He's portrayed in the same light as all of the other characters, but the story also (however briefly) delves into the struggles a gay man probably would face in his situation.
Mileena and Tanya are also bisexual but that's rarely touched on so.

I like Kung Jin a lot. He's so freaking cool and definitely a great example of a well-written LGBTQ character. Bonus points for being a new-generation character, which are usually scoffed at in fighting game settings for a multitude of reasons. His fighting style is also really fun to look at and probably the coolest representation of archery in a fighting game, even if the movements are on the fantastic side of things. In fact, you could leave his sexual/romantic orientation completely unaddressed and keep his anxiety issues with the clan intact and he wouldn't be any different. That's how many layers he possesses in his character.

And on an unrelated note...since we're playing Chinese flying pigs...

If KOS-MOS is playable, I'm getting every PVC figure, including the dolls.
If Artoria is playable, I'm gonna (attempt) to draw a mockup poster as if Takeuchi did promo art for her inclusion.
If Frisk is playable, I'm going to

Spoiler

draw them giving LaPhos a hug telling them that everything is going to be OK

 

[Deleted member]

Guys I hate myself Mii Gunner
Hands down the most annoying character in this ****ing game

pk fiya

 

[Deleted member]

I would honestly pay money for a playable Masahiro Sakurai. I wouldn't care how broken he ends up being.

Automatically beats

 

[Plumstar]

I would honestly pay money for a playable Masahiro Sakurai. I wouldn't care how broken he ends up being, but the plot twist...

His Final Smash would be to summon Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Tabuu, Galeem, and Kirby (Chrom).