Twisted Fate Mafia [D3 BEGINS, DEADLINE: 3/8 at 11:59 PM EST]

[Spak]

Well, he left after Maven brought up a point against him, and still hasn't really contributed anything noteworthy this game, but then again, neither have I, but I'm just getting scum vibes from him. It's hard to describe.

Gheb had the big post that compiled points to restart the Kantrip push, has been one of the more active players, and the reason he didn't respond to Maven's question (I assume you meant the "why am I a traitor" one?) is probably because it was past midnight in Europe.

 

[Xatres]

Finally caught up. Here are some initial thoughts:

1) I may be biased by coming in D2, but I think the case on Kantrip was garbage. The primary reasons people jumped on were because he doesn't like Dastrn's mechanical play (which Kantrip always complains about), he didn't like Dastrn's case on RR (which wasn't strong to begin with), and because everyone just kinda rolled over and accepted that it was inevitable. The lynch D1 could have easily been Ryker or my own slot, and town would have benefited more.

2) Dastrn is definitely town. I've never played in a game with Dastrn outside of hydraing, but I know his playstyle and this whole game fits town-Dastrn to a T.

3) I continue to get scum vibes off J early game for no other reason than his word choice. Stop saying 'odd' so much! Got you as a town lean now that the game has been going for awhile.

4) Definitely feeling a Ryker lynch toDay. Ryker would have been an easy choice D1, and he and Gheb were set up as the quick lynch targets D2. Coming out the gate to claim roleblocked was unnecessary and opportunistic. He's already admitted his logic was faulty, but that admission doesn't excuse the fact that it was jacked to begin with. The only person who had anything to gain from his claim was himself.

Vote: Ryker

Gonna keep the rest of my cards close to my chest for now.

 

[Maven89]

There was the very viable and realistic chance of lynching Spak in Kantrip's place at that time that could have *easily* happened but instead you chose to *not* give that option a shot and thus actively contributed to make sure that nobody except Kantrip could've gotten lynched.

You mean the one guy who was correctly pointing out that the Kantrip lynch made no sense? Why would I want that guy lynched? That would have been as bad. No, I focused on the scummier people

So your MO essentialy was:
1.) Contribute towards Kantrip getting lynched
2.) Pre-emptively blame two pro-active slots you know are not mafia for Kantrip's incoming townflip.

Still really deadest on Dastrn being town without having any reason for it, aren't you? If you're going to defend him you can put words to it

And it's the biggest stretch I've ever seen to argue that demolishing the Kantrip lynch was helping him being lynched. I wrecked it and there was zero reason to vote for him afterwards outside of people giving up. We've both seen swings that have happened in less time when people are willing. There was no reason for them not to be

Dastrn and I are not "responsible" for his lynch. Not more than everybody else who has been on there so don't even try to make it look like this lynch has all been my doing. At the end of the day my vote contributed exactly 1/7th to his lynch and not one bit more. You do not get to put the load of the other 6/7th on my or Dastrn's back.

That's absolute garbage and you know it, you're not naive enough to think amount of votes are the correct way to judge responsibility. You pushed his lynch and Dastrn helped out while attacking pro-town reads on him, you two were the cheerleaders for it and you two are the ones most responsible. That's very obvious and I cannot believe you'd honestly deny that.

2) Dastrn is definitely town. I've never played in a game with Dastrn outside of hydraing, but I know his playstyle and this whole game fits town-Dastrn to a T.

Explain this. TOo many people are giving Dastrn a town read (which I find completly unjustified) without laying out why. We need to have a discussion on this and that requires both sides

4) Definitely feeling a Ryker lynch toDay. Ryker would have been an easy choice D1, and he and Gheb were set up as the quick lynch targets D2. Coming out the gate to claim roleblocked was unnecessary and opportunistic. He's already admitted his logic was faulty, but that admission doesn't excuse the fact that it was jacked to begin with. The only person who had anything to gain from his claim was himself..

Does the fact that he claimed a PR without being counter claimed not factor in at all? Assuming mafia picked at least one augment (which I'd assume we can put at a 80% chance or higher) Ryker would have no way of knowing which PRs were out there, and he chose a PR that has no night action plus is one the mafia doesn't have a vested interest in killing. I can see why he'd claim that PR if he was scum, it gives him an excuse for not dying, but I also don't see why he'd do that as scum when he could easily be countered by a possible real vigilint spirit, and when the PR is worthless for the mafia to out. As town he could be doing it to gather a NK since that's the best use of his role, at least until we made him claim.

However, that is the only reason I'm not currently on board with Ryker. I still feel Gheb and Dastrn (mainly Gheb now) are much better options.

 

[Maven89]

For Ryker it's comments like this

Your Maven read is literally one line that he "bugs you.".

When that's clearly not accurate

 

[Xatres]

Explain this. TOo many people are giving Dastrn a town read (which I find completly unjustified) without laying out why. We need to have a discussion on this and that requires both sides

I can't speak for other players, but I've known Dastrn my entire life. The way he thinks is difficult to fake. I don't necessarily agree with all his reads, but I can tell they're genuine.

Does the fact that he claimed a PR without being counter claimed not factor in at all? Assuming mafia picked at least one augment (which I'd assume we can put at a 80% chance or higher) Ryker would have no way of knowing which PRs were out there, and he chose a PR that has no night action plus is one the mafia doesn't have a vested interest in killing. I can see why he'd claim that PR if he was scum, it gives him an excuse for not dying, but I also don't see why he'd do that as scum when he could easily be countered by a possible real vigilint spirit, and when the PR is worthless for the mafia to out. As town he could be doing it to gather a NK since that's the best use of his role, at least until we made him claim.

However, that is the only reason I'm not currently on board with Ryker. I still feel Gheb and Dastrn (mainly Gheb now) are much better options.

Given the fact that the town PRs are randomized, it's much safer in this game for scum to fakeclaim a town role. The risk of being CC'd is much lower. This is especially true now that two of our PRs are dead.

I would also argue that Restless Spirit is the perfect fakeclaim for scum-Ryker. Restless Spirit has a passive ability that only contributes to the town if the player is dead. Ryker can't be asked to do anything with his ability to prove his claim is genuine. And while he makes a less useful target for mafia night kills, he makes an absolutely worthless target for mafia roleblocks. Even if he could make the case that revealing he was roleblocked was a good idea, revealing that the roleblock was wasted on his slot was undoubtedly terrible decision. Without knowing Ryker's exact PR, mafia would assume their roleblock was successful and keep hitting Ryker. Ryker's choice to fully claim offers no benefit to town, but every benefit to scum-Ryker.

 

[Maven89]

Now, Gheb's traitor comment. I actually think this might have been a huge slip on Gheb's part.

Saying he's getting traitor vibes means he believes I played

1. With secret knowledge
2. Outside of the scum team

Without one of those two, there's no traitor vibe, it's either a town or scum vibe. Saying I'm a traitor means Gheb is reading both of those into my late Day 1 play.

1. Secret Knowledge - I had two main points: Kantrip is town, Gheb/Dastrn are scum. These are the only two options for that. So Gheb has to believe either one or both of those are true. He said it's the Kantrip read. Why would the Kantrip read demand secret knowledge, though? It's pretty clear just from the posts themselves that Kantrip was town and Gheb's main argument against him were, at best, a giant misunderstanding, or deliberate manipulations at worst. I demonstrated that. Why would Gheb believe I had to have secret information on Kantrip, and not just that I read the game?

2. Outside of the scum team: this is required, because it's needed to have a "traitor" vibe instead of scum. By calling me traitor Gheb outed that he didn't believe I was working with the scum team. What was I doing day 1? I was not posting for a long time, then came in to stop Kantrip's lynch and push Dastrn/Gheb. Not posting is entirely null, and even if you believed I was scum there's nothing there to make it traitor instead of scum. So it has to be one of the later two, both of which require the mafia team to be on the other side. So if it's me stopping Kantrip's lynch, that means Gheb believes the mafia were behind the Kantrip lynch. If it's my push on Dastrn/Gheb, then Gheb believes pushing those two is working against the mafia, whose goal is to not die and lynch town.

The traitor comment makes the most sense from the perspective that

1. I got at least one of Gheb/Dastrn right as scum.

But if it was just Dastrn, how could Gheb know? This means it has to include Gheb

2. My Kantrip lynch was working directly against the scum team

Which, in this situation, the people I was working agianst were Gheb and Dastrn

AND/OR

2. Pushing Dastrn/Gheb is working against the scum team

Two people Gheb say are town, how would getting them lynched be against the mafia's self interest? They're both great players and that would be a boon.

From a townGheb perspective, none of this holds up. He'd have zero reason to think Kantrip's defense required secret knowledge, he'd have no reason to think I was working against the scum team and not just gathering pro-town points for myself after ducking out for a day, he'd have no reason to not think I was just pushing for townies. For Gheb to say "traitor vibes" shows secret information that Gheb has, and we can use logic to pinpoint where he's coming from. And it's scummy.

Vote: Gheb

plus his Kantrip lynch was still awful

 

[Maven89]

I would also argue that Restless Spirit is the perfect fakeclaim for scum-Ryker. Restless Spirit has a passive ability that only contributes to the town if the player is dead. Ryker can't be asked to do anything with his ability to prove his claim is genuine. And while he makes a less useful target for mafia night kills, he makes an absolutely worthless target for mafia roleblocks. Even if he could make the case that revealing he was roleblocked was a good idea, revealing that the roleblock was wasted on his slot was undoubtedly terrible decision. Without knowing Ryker's exact PR, mafia would assume their roleblock was successful and keep hitting Ryker. Ryker's choice to fully claim offers no benefit to town, but every benefit to scum-Ryker.

That makes a lot of sense

 

[Maven89]

I'm going to re-read Day 1, and will be back (probably tomorrow) with thoughts on everyone else

 

[Corps phoenix]

Unvote

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can't speak for other players, but I've known Dastrn my entire life. The way he thinks is difficult to fake. I don't necessarily agree with all his reads, but I can tell they're genuine.



Given the fact that the town PRs are randomized, it's much safer in this game for scum to fakeclaim a town role. The risk of being CC'd is much lower. This is especially true now that two of our PRs are dead.

I would also argue that Restless Spirit is the perfect fakeclaim for scum-Ryker. Restless Spirit has a passive ability that only contributes to the town if the player is dead. Ryker can't be asked to do anything with his ability to prove his claim is genuine. And while he makes a less useful target for mafia night kills, he makes an absolutely worthless target for mafia roleblocks. Even if he could make the case that revealing he was roleblocked was a good idea, revealing that the roleblock was wasted on his slot was undoubtedly terrible decision. Without knowing Ryker's exact PR, mafia would assume their roleblock was successful and keep hitting Ryker. Ryker's choice to fully claim offers no benefit to town, but every benefit to scum-Ryker.

Outside of ryker who is scum?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ngl I think those 5 day deadlines are destroying us pretty badly. I'll try to come up with something insightful this evening.

 

[Dastrn]

Now, Gheb's traitor comment. I actually think this might have been a huge slip on Gheb's part.

Saying he's getting traitor vibes means he believes I played

1. With secret knowledge
2. Outside of the scum team

Without one of those two, there's no traitor vibe, it's either a town or scum vibe. Saying I'm a traitor means Gheb is reading both of those into my late Day 1 play.

1. Secret Knowledge - I had two main points: Kantrip is town, Gheb/Dastrn are scum. These are the only two options for that. So Gheb has to believe either one or both of those are true. He said it's the Kantrip read. Why would the Kantrip read demand secret knowledge, though? It's pretty clear just from the posts themselves that Kantrip was town and Gheb's main argument against him were, at best, a giant misunderstanding, or deliberate manipulations at worst. I demonstrated that. Why would Gheb believe I had to have secret information on Kantrip, and not just that I read the game?

2. Outside of the scum team: this is required, because it's needed to have a "traitor" vibe instead of scum. By calling me traitor Gheb outed that he didn't believe I was working with the scum team. What was I doing day 1? I was not posting for a long time, then came in to stop Kantrip's lynch and push Dastrn/Gheb. Not posting is entirely null, and even if you believed I was scum there's nothing there to make it traitor instead of scum. So it has to be one of the later two, both of which require the mafia team to be on the other side. So if it's me stopping Kantrip's lynch, that means Gheb believes the mafia were behind the Kantrip lynch. If it's my push on Dastrn/Gheb, then Gheb believes pushing those two is working against the mafia, whose goal is to not die and lynch town.

The traitor comment makes the most sense from the perspective that

1. I got at least one of Gheb/Dastrn right as scum.

But if it was just Dastrn, how could Gheb know? This means it has to include Gheb

2. My Kantrip lynch was working directly against the scum team

Which, in this situation, the people I was working agianst were Gheb and Dastrn

AND/OR

2. Pushing Dastrn/Gheb is working against the scum team

Two people Gheb say are town, how would getting them lynched be against the mafia's self interest? They're both great players and that would be a boon.

From a townGheb perspective, none of this holds up. He'd have zero reason to think Kantrip's defense required secret knowledge, he'd have no reason to think I was working against the scum team and not just gathering pro-town points for myself after ducking out for a day, he'd have no reason to not think I was just pushing for townies. For Gheb to say "traitor vibes" shows secret information that Gheb has, and we can use logic to pinpoint where he's coming from. And it's scummy.

Vote: Gheb

plus his Kantrip lynch was still awful

Maybe it's just because it's early, but some of this made very little sense to me.

What did make sense is that I didn't really understand Gheb's "traitor vibes" comment at all.

To be clear, what secret info is a traitor given before / during the game?

The green highlighted text isn't true. Not posting can't be considered null. Remember the big talk we had about the Lynch Inactives contract?

 

[Dastrn]

Regarding Ryker's RB'ed claim: Would someone with no night action even be informed by the moderator that they were roleblocked? How would he know? I thought you found out by either not getting information back from the moderator when asking for information, or waking up and seeing that your action did not actually take place.
Unless I'm misunderstanding how moderators are handling a roleblock action in today's games, I don't believe Ryker, and he's flown way up my list.

Vote: Ryker

 

[Dastrn]

Given the fact that the town PRs are randomized, it's much safer in this game for scum to fakeclaim a town role. The risk of being CC'd is much lower. This is especially true now that two of our PRs are dead.

I would also argue that Restless Spirit is the perfect fakeclaim for scum-Ryker. Restless Spirit has a passive ability that only contributes to the town if the player is dead. Ryker can't be asked to do anything with his ability to prove his claim is genuine. And while he makes a less useful target for mafia night kills, he makes an absolutely worthless target for mafia roleblocks. Even if he could make the case that revealing he was roleblocked was a good idea, revealing that the roleblock was wasted on his slot was undoubtedly terrible decision. Without knowing Ryker's exact PR, mafia would assume their roleblock was successful and keep hitting Ryker. Ryker's choice to fully claim offers no benefit to town, but every benefit to scum-Ryker.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Spak]

Regarding Ryker's RB'ed claim: Would someone with no night action even be informed by the moderator that they were roleblocked? How would he know? I thought you found out by either not getting information back from the moderator when asking for information, or waking up and seeing that your action did not actually take place.
Unless I'm misunderstanding how moderators are handling a roleblock action in today's games, I don't believe Ryker, and he's flown way up my list.

Vote: Ryker

Also, how would he know he wasn't jailed rather than RB'd? There might still be a jailer in this setup, assuming that scum took some mods (we'll find out about janitor tonight).

I'll place a vote on Ryker after a vote count; I'm not sure how many people are voting him right now (I haven't fully read up yet) and I don't want to cut the phase short.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Ngl I think those 5 day deadlines are destroying us pretty badly. I'll try to come up with something insightful this evening.

Tell you what, I'm going to revoke my previous statement. Deadline has been extended to Sunday, February 28th at 11:59 PM EST. This is both because you guys are complaining and due to the replacement (mostly the latter). However, this extension comes with a catch: if you guys improve the general activity of the game over the rest of the phase, particularly the weekend, I'll switch to seven day phases. If the activity level stays the same then I'm keeping the five day phases.

For absolute clarity, my general perception of this game's activity is lax posting with about a page a day followed by a flurry of stressed posting in the last 24-36 hours of the phase to ensure a lynch before deadline. That's how it was yesterday, that's how it's going today thus far. I want to see close to the same level of activity you guys had by deadline of D1 for me to extend the day phases permanently. If it hits Saturday evening and there's been no marked improvement, I'm keeping the five day phases. Feel free to PM me if you disagree with my point of view, but this is the offer I'm presenting.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Votecount 2.2

1. #HBC | Ryker: J
2. Corps Phoenix: Spak >
3. Xatres: Ryker
4. Maven89: Gheb
5. ASC | Red Ryu: Spak >
6. Gheb_01:
7. Spak: Xatres >
8. #HBC | J: Ryker
9. ThatSmasherYouKnow: Gheb >
10. Dastrn: Ryker

Not voting: Corps, Gheb, TSYK, Ruy, Spak

Count
Ryker (3): J, Xatres, Dastrn
J (1): Ryker
Gheb (1): Maven

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline is 2/28 at 11:59 PM EST.​

 

[Dastrn]

Also, how would he know he wasn't jailed rather than RB'd? There might still be a jailer in this setup, assuming that scum took some mods (we'll find out about janitor tonight).

I'll place a vote on Ryker after a vote count; I'm not sure how many people are voting him right now (I haven't fully read up yet) and I don't want to cut the phase short.

Yeah, that's just the thing. He claimed a role with no night action, so he didn't TAKE a night action, meaning he didn't do anything blockable. Unless mods typically communicate that someone was blocked even if they didn't do anything, this is a huge lie that has to be explained.

I'd like info from the rest of you on this: do mods communicate at night on roleblocks in this kind of situation? (no night action taken)?

 

[Spak]

I'll follow up on my earlier statement:

Vote: Ryker

 

[Dastrn]

To echo our mod, why is everyone so quiet?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

School stuff

 

[Spak]

I'm waiting for Ryker to get in here and defend himself or for TSYK get back into thread and give a legit reason for thinking Gheb is dodging.

 

[#HBC | J]

Corps also needs to do something as well toDay.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah, that's just the thing. He claimed a role with no night action, so he didn't TAKE a night action, meaning he didn't do anything blockable. Unless mods typically communicate that someone was blocked even if they didn't do anything, this is a huge lie that has to be explained.

I'd like info from the rest of you on this: do mods communicate at night on roleblocks in this kind of situation? (no night action taken)?

Did he claim a role?

I don't believe he ever did.

 

[#HBC | J]

He claimed Restless Spirit.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wat, unless Laundry does it differently from others why would he be informed of the roleblock?

 

[Spak]

Wat, unless Laundry does it differently from others why would he be informed of the roleblock?

That's the point that Dastrn was making (#653).

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Don't have time to post at this very moment, but I did, in fact claim Restless Spirit.

#HBC | Laundry It's an open set-up, can you please explain the interaction between roleblocker and Restless Spirit including whether the target would be notified of roleblock?

Short answer, if I'm roleblocked, my ability doesn't proc that night, but I am informed of roleblock.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

While the ability is a passive one, should the spirit get roleblocked on the night it is killed, its ability will not activate as it was technically blocked during its period of activation.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well guess he could be told about it.

Anyone got something legit other than J?

 

[Maven89]

Ryu are you reading the game? Comment on my Gheb case in detail

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryu are you reading the game? Comment on my Gheb case in detail

recent stuff nope.

 

[Maven89]

i can write out the logic for you, I can't read for you. Play the game please

J give me your thoughts on Hheb and Fasten

 

[Maven89]

Gheb and Dastrn*

 

[Dastrn]

While the ability is a passive one, should the spirit get roleblocked on the night it is killed, its ability will not activate as it was technically blocked during its period of activation.

So you're saying that he would be killed and role blocked and thus would not get to post images the next day and would simply be dead.

Since he's not dead, we can assume that this combination scenario did not occur. Thus, it would be natural to assume that the normal mod behavior (not notifying someone that they were role blocked if they didn't do anything at night) would be applied, correct?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

So you're saying that he would be killed and role blocked and thus would not get to post images the next day and would simply be dead.

Since he's not dead, we can assume that this combination scenario did not occur. Thus, it would be natural to assume that the normal mod behavior (not notifying someone that they were role blocked if they didn't do anything at night) would be applied, correct?

In the event that the mafia team targeted a player without an active or passive ability, they will not be informed such an action took place.

 

[Corps phoenix]

Corps needs to do something

Something
​

Spoiler: Initial thoughts

Rewinding back to when Kantrip wasn't confirmed either alignment, I was thinking that he was going to be town (hurray for being right!) and that Spak was going to be my obvious push going into this day. I backed off from the thread and immediately voting him expecting more a Spat from Spak, but I think that even if Spak were scum like my mind was telling me, he's going to keep regurgitating the same defense over and over, so pushing him about that isn't worth it and wouldn't get him lynched even if I wanted him to; that's why I unvoted. I do not think Spak is completely off the hook but I know that me keeping my vote there would lead to absolutely nothing, and I do think his responses to Red Ryu are fine even if my own feelings about Spak don't go away. If I were to analyze Spak from a perspective that isn't just him defending Kantrip in the way he did, it would be that he seems to always have the timely post and reason for everything does, and looking at other's opinions about the slot there seems to be everyone seemingly keeping him at arm's reach yet someone else is always at the forefront instead, and this is the same I feel with TSYK...but thinking about him I could be more wrong because he is a noob and I will give him that, but Spak does not show noob behavior in my eyes so they aren't the same. Other slots I am keeping an eye on are Maven and Gheb, and I don't remember honestly if I said that I felt one of them had scum but if I didn't I'll say it right now. More about why I feel that in the next spoiler. (suspense)

Spoiler: Points of interest

1. The Gheb and Maven debauchery

These are the two slots in my eyes that should be getting a lot more attention then they've garnered while people try and figure out whether Ryker is legitimate or not which in my eyes doesn't matter. We have Gheb on the flip of Kantrip shrugging it off completely and feeling no way about it and then Maven seemingly going on the attack with Gheb while carrying his Dastrn suspicion, but it gets so muddled at this point. There's something interesting that I spotted between the two and it's this interaction especially -

'll post more later but I'm definitely getting Traitor vibes from Maven.

Expand on why "traitor". You seem to think it's important enough to be your first post so you should find it important enough to elaborate on

It has to do with the way you chimed in at the end of yesterDay. Specifically the timing you decided to show up out of nowhere after not doing **** all Day and bring mine and Dastrn's name to the table. At that point it had alread become pretty easy to see that neither of us two had a realistic chance to get lynched so I'm not sure what the point of that was other than to make things more messy than they already were.

I may dig into some specific posts of yours but I remember having the impression that you more or less *knew* that Kantrip was going to flip town and tried to link players to him last second, which is nothing town gains anything from.

I'd like it if Gheb could respond on why "traitor" and not "mafia" before other people jump in on it

I won't quote the rest of their interaction but if people are wondering which side I think is more likely I'd say Maven right now even if i think Gheb's point about him being traitor is a bit polarizing. His points about Maven bringing him and Dastrn on the table are definitely the meat of it though. The main thing I want to focus on this is that Maven seems a bit lopsided in his pushes, and that I also find him conveniently placing Gheb and Dastrn in his scumpile to not really make sense from a logistical standpoint. When you pair two people together I usually assume you are thinking of them as partners, and I know a lot of people say that you can have multiple scumreads but in this case Maven is directly inferring the two as being the equivalent of big bullies and Maven being the hero that saved and defended Kantrip at the end of the day. There would be less of an issue if Maven had something to follow up with but instead he has sat on his thumbs and I haven't seen much of his Dastrn case that he was promising or even pressure (passive-aggressiveness is not pressure) for that matter. I don't think that town would exclaim that they have something and build something up then come out with nothing, and the fact that he does have nothing makes me lean on more so that he was stalling and now he just wants people to believe that there was something and that he will always be in the process of working it out, which just allows scum to coast on unkempt promises. That's basically what Maven is to me right now is unkempt promises and mostly coasting to ask the idle question once in a while, coupled in with weird defenses here and there about how he plays as town and just in general the man is confusing and not someone I want to have in town.

And then we have Gheb, who I came into thinking that his case on Kantrip was just absolute BS in every sense of the word but in this case I don't believe in partners trying to play off the existent traitor as distancing and especially that the way Maven is responding does not feel like they're forcing anything because I'd expect Maven to kneejerk more than he is and that he's mostly just been answering Gheb while not providing counter-arguments and doing next to nothing to progress his read further besides call him basically a big meanie who is just full of it.

2. Ryker vs The World (and J)

Seeing this day center around Ryker just because J wished it and them two being at the throats of each other is disappointing to say the least because I think they're both town who are caught up tunneling each other to see the bigger picture that I have hopefully painted for everyone to see. Ryker at this point to me is a non-interest because even if he is lying about his roleblock and is mafia there is always going to be J there to push him and for him to push him. I don't have quote specifics in regards to these two but Ryker from D1 was mostly null for me and J i had good vibes merely based on his responses to everything even if the reads itself were sparse. Weird how I have comparisons this game but J is pretty much Maven but he isn't actually making broken promises and looking to point fingers to keep heat off him. I might not agree with his reasoning on Ryker but that doesn't mean I can't see it. I would only vote Ryker if I had to and I wouldn't be voting J anytime soon.

3. Those other people not mentioned

Dastrn is likely town and everyone agrees and the scum does too at this point. Red Ryu/TSYK are in a pile of 'figure out later' and liking RR a little for his pressure on Spak. Xatres' point on Ryker a bit of a stretch in my eyes but he's not as big of a concern as Maven is to me today.

Spoiler: I don't like reading! Just give me your reads.

Dastrn
J
Gheb
Ryker
Red Ryu
Xatres
Spak
TSYK
Maven

Vote: Maven89

 

[Corps phoenix]

Now, Gheb's traitor comment. I actually think this might have been a huge slip on Gheb's part.

Saying he's getting traitor vibes means he believes I played

1. With secret knowledge
2. Outside of the scum team

Without one of those two, there's no traitor vibe, it's either a town or scum vibe. Saying I'm a traitor means Gheb is reading both of those into my late Day 1 play.

1. Secret Knowledge - I had two main points: Kantrip is town, Gheb/Dastrn are scum. These are the only two options for that. So Gheb has to believe either one or both of those are true. He said it's the Kantrip read. Why would the Kantrip read demand secret knowledge, though? It's pretty clear just from the posts themselves that Kantrip was town and Gheb's main argument against him were, at best, a giant misunderstanding, or deliberate manipulations at worst. I demonstrated that. Why would Gheb believe I had to have secret information on Kantrip, and not just that I read the game?

2. Outside of the scum team: this is required, because it's needed to have a "traitor" vibe instead of scum. By calling me traitor Gheb outed that he didn't believe I was working with the scum team. What was I doing day 1? I was not posting for a long time, then came in to stop Kantrip's lynch and push Dastrn/Gheb. Not posting is entirely null, and even if you believed I was scum there's nothing there to make it traitor instead of scum. So it has to be one of the later two, both of which require the mafia team to be on the other side. So if it's me stopping Kantrip's lynch, that means Gheb believes the mafia were behind the Kantrip lynch. If it's my push on Dastrn/Gheb, then Gheb believes pushing those two is working against the mafia, whose goal is to not die and lynch town.

The traitor comment makes the most sense from the perspective that

1. I got at least one of Gheb/Dastrn right as scum.

But if it was just Dastrn, how could Gheb know? This means it has to include Gheb

2. My Kantrip lynch was working directly against the scum team

Which, in this situation, the people I was working agianst were Gheb and Dastrn

AND/OR

2. Pushing Dastrn/Gheb is working against the scum team

Two people Gheb say are town, how would getting them lynched be against the mafia's self interest? They're both great players and that would be a boon.

From a townGheb perspective, none of this holds up. He'd have zero reason to think Kantrip's defense required secret knowledge, he'd have no reason to think I was working against the scum team and not just gathering pro-town points for myself after ducking out for a day, he'd have no reason to not think I was just pushing for townies. For Gheb to say "traitor vibes" shows secret information that Gheb has, and we can use logic to pinpoint where he's coming from. And it's scummy.

Vote: Gheb

plus his Kantrip lynch was still awful

Seems I missed this post but feelings remain all the same, and that it doesn't answer the question of where his Dastrn case is or the Dastrn pressure for that matter. It's just convenient pairing up into nonsensical what-if scenarios.

 

[Maven89]

Corps I posted my Dastrn reason multiple times day 1 as well as pushing on Gheb, I've laid out my reasons and have been waiting for someone to take a ****ing second and play the game along with me instead of being lazy like Ryu or jumping at the first shiny thing they see, I appreciate you taking initiative when almost no one else is but you don't even seem to remember what people were posting just a few rl days ago

 

[Corps phoenix]

The point of it all is that you're pairing Dastrn/Gheb together and it makes 0 sense.