Furthermore, I had already discussed my dislike for Raz Day 1, and Day 2 I reiterated my concerns and the additional concerns that D2 and his hop on the wagon caused but there wasn't much I could do about it considering the lynch had already taken place.
That would be because Raziek was definitely my strongest scum read, I did and still do have stronger town reads than scum reads, and I wanted to look into some players based mostly on the suspicions of my town reads because I honestly didn't know where to look. That's not an optimal situation to be in but that's where I was at D2.
That's all good and well, July, but the thing I am getting at there is that you only explained one of your scum-reads in a bit of detail. You did not explain at all any of your other
four scum-reads. (RR/Ditzy/Circus/Ryker) Sure a lynch happened, but that didn't stop people from scum-hunting or looking at other people and trying to explain things. We had over 24 hours to talk and you decided to just sit on your Raziek thing and hang back. You posted your thoughts but you didn't post the meat behind them.
July said:
And the bolded is twisting information; I didn't know that at the time of my last post, OS hadn't claimed yet and the information provided from Ran did not semi-clear OS.
I seemed to have messed-up the time bit of this so I apologize for that.
July said:
Here is what I mean:
BRB said:
That being said, IT'S INDY HUNTING!!! Chuckie flipping Indy does absolutely nothing to help OS's credibility.
This is exactly the type of technique you have been implementing to help you in your case against OS. You say Indy hunting is a bad thing and something that holds him accountable to possibly being scum for focusing on indies on D2. Even in this response, you bring it up yet again.
July said:
The reason I was quick to consider OS seems pretty obvious, actually; strongman characteristic + indy hunting looked like characteristics of a scum role.
You are trying to use what OS had done in focusing on the indy on D2 as scummy behavior and that he is more likely scum because of it. How do you get scumOS for going on a lead he felt incredibly strongly against. If you are going to attack OS on indy hunting then you have to go against everyone who was on the wagon and agreed with OS because they too would be considered Indy Hunting for choosing to focus in on Chuckie rather than try and find "mafia". If we were to put it into broader terms, OS was just scum-hunting with a specific target in mind. In fact, due to OS' case we were able to see the scumminess of BRB and Soup took the shot at him when he had the chance. So then again, you need to explain exactly and clearly, what about OS' indy-hunting makes him more suspect and being mafia.
July said:
I had a suspicion on Circus because, as I said D2, I wanted to look at him because Swords had some valid points on him, but those points became irrelevant toDay as Circus became more active. I like him because honestly he was one of the few players who freaking paid attention to the issues with RR's claim and actually pursued getting information from him, and he's been logical in his approach to players toDay and the claims in particular.
What points in particular from Swords made you supect him? And again, you seem to be giving town points to those who agree with you and giving scum-points to those who didn't really go along with you from the very get go.
July said:
Simply the idea that scum likely had more information than town did D1, and so I wanted to keep an eye on people who seemed like they had a lot of information.
How can you be sure of this to call him scummy? In the other Halloween Party game, no one had "extra" information about the game before it began. It feel more like a paranoid theory to me.
July said:
Gaahhhhhhh I just really don't like people who freaking ignored the issues with RR's claim; how do you ignore that? Or how do you put the pressure onto PJB for not dying rather than onto RR for his sketchy claim? I don't understand and I felt like most people weren't being "more contemplative", they simply weren't dealing with the issue or were diverting attention elsewhere.
How do you know that people were ignoring that? You claim that I was ignoring it but that isn't true at all in the slightest. Also I never solely put pressure on PBJ for not dying. The thing with your argument July is that it can be reversed and swung back at you.
Your Argument: "How can you not dislike RR for his claim? PBJ not dying isn't scummy."
A Counter Argument: "How can you not dislike PBJ for not dying? RR's claim isn't scummy."
This is what I am talking about from the beginning stages of the argument before RR's claim became more and more sloppy and transparent. Explain where people were diverting attention to and what else they were choosing to focus on? Mind you, there was a bunch of information coming about from various sources and claims. Is it really scummy to not focus all 100% attention on one person when we still have 11 people alive and an assumed 4 man mafia team left in the game? We also had a series of claims to focus in on as well. I feel you are being ridiculously unfair but I await to see your response to how you feel people were "diverting attention away from RR".
No, I've been very clear you are my second strongest town read, I just had no idea why you claimed when you did. You explained, I'm happy with that, case closed.
July said:
As petty as this is J's post ISOing me was a tipping point for me because the points he makes are foremost based on meta which isn't reliable anymore, and then he takes points out of context and forgets that D1 nothing happened and D2 I literally wasn't here until twilight and that affects my point of view on things like the Chuckie wagon. I've already discussed J's push on PJB being reachy, and J got on me for getting on him for not being critical of RR but he simply wasn't until popular opinion turned towards an RR lynch and then he hopped on with in a rather half-hearted fashion.
I'm going to be honest here and tell you my real opinion on this and your entire scum-read on me. I feel it is very forced. The reason I say this is because I am getting the impression that you are trying to force a scum-read onto me in your mind and trying to convince yourself that you have a scum-read on me rather than actually having one on me. Your response to my ISO reads as a knee-jerky OMGUS especially with the bolded.
The reason I say this is because you are saying that the ISO was the "tipping point" because it was focused on you and you are trying to belittle it by calling it a "petty attempt" when in reality, July, the stuff I am saying is sound and people agree with it. You are not explaining your reads clearly and some of the things you have said are off putting. Example would be your attack on me. You also say that most of my case on you is meta which isn't true either and I feel you are inflating that point a bit to try and make it sound like you have more of a good reason to try and dismiss my ISO on you.
Also you try and discredit my case on RR as a half-hearted attempt to go with the popular decision? If this:
[collapse=My RR Case]
Red Ryu said:
Oh no, there is no third protective that was me n1 and n2, and I don't believe for a second a townie used their doc on you.
I'm Shu Nakajima, town genius.
Whoever gets lynched I turn into a one night back up for them or in N2s case whoever dies first.
N1 I found out I was a doctor and protected OS.
This is why I questioned if Chuckie was actually trolling or not when they looked serious about it.
N2 I turned into the poison protection doctor, it removes poison or stops it from targeting the player, that was what I was told.
N3 happened and I turned into a chemist vig and shot you.
I back up protectives so I seriously doubt there is a fourth one.
I'm damn sure Nabe tells people when they are token locked bass on Halloween mafia.
So why are you alive?
The bolded bit is the thing that makes me doubt RR's claim. Why does his claim change all because there was no D3? It doesn't make sense (to me at least) why he got Soup's role. The first death posted has been the assumed person to have died first and in this case, as OS pointed out in his large post, that makes it Raziek, not Soup.
Then when we get onto the topic of Raziek about him being the already flipped "Back-up" with OS being a Back-up to the person who was the vig. It really doesn't make sense at all. Speaking of how things can get very over powered, let's take a look at this:
Why would Nabe put in two back-up roles that would have gotten the same role N1? It doesn't make sense for there to have been two doctors from N1. Then again let's play this game. Soup was lynched D1 meaning the vig died. Raziek would become back-up Vig, RR would get a vig-role (apparantly), and OS would have become a Strongman Vig. 3 guns for the price of losing one...? That really feels unbalanced.
For me "Chemist Vig" sounds more like a good cover role for Poisoner since it makes for sense for a "Chemist" to poison rather than shoot people. Which also gives me a bit of pause because it could explain why PBJ hasn't died last night but it also doesn't make sense because he claims strongly that he "shot" him last night.
Here is a thing though, RR claims to get a different variant of each role every night but the night he became a back-up poison doctor. Why is that night so special?
RR's claim brings so many different sides and just is very confusing to go into but I think I am beginning to figure it out. Let me bring up a qualm from July which will explain a bit more while I have been skeptic about my opinion on RR. PBJ also wanted my opinion on RR which I admit to withholding fully thus far.
PrivateJoker-Brown said:
@J. What do you think about Ryu?
July said:
J- I'm having trouble reading J this game and especially toDay I find myself conflicted over his actions. He's asking good questions, but then he doesn't seem to question RR's terrible claim but instead makes focuses on PJB for reasons I agree seem reachy. I want to keep an eye on J; I don't want to lynch him, but I don't particularly trust him.
To answer both, the reason I have not been questioning RR in thread is because everyone else has already been asking a bunch of questions toward him and I had nothing to add to that heat. My original thought on RR was that he was towny. It did not make sense for me as to why he would just outright claim he had shot PBJ with such point blank gusto and conviction as scum. He wasn't on the chopping block and could have floated more if he was scum.
His actions are not logical as scum. However, I figured I may have been giving RR a bit too much benefit of the doubt since he has pulled illogical things as scum and I have read them as town in other scenarios as well. At the current time, I feel RR is a sinking ship with way too many holes in his claim and play to add up as town. Plus even if he is town, he hasn't done a good job convincing anyone of this fact with the claim that makes no sense in any way you look at it and his inconsistency on things. A thing RR said that sealed it for me was when he said "If Ran is telling the truth, I will lynch OS solely on claim" (paraphrased and can't be bothered to go search for the quote now). The thing about that quote that I don't like is that RR in his mind has a 50/50 guilty with his knowledge. Why would he give that up just to lynch OS? He hasn't expressed any distaste in OS till the claim (then again only a select few had. Kary comes to mind). It looks more to me like a desperate attempt to abandon ship and get another lynch going that isn't his.
That being all said and done, I am definitely for lynching RR toDay.[/quote]
So my lynch pool right now is RR/J/JTB/Kary. I will not lynch anyone outside these four toDay.[/QUOTE][/COLLAPSE]
Then I am very confused as to how you think this is half-hearted. In the end, your attack on me just feels like an attempt to come off stronger than you actually are and is reading more and more like a desperate attempt to seem like you have a super-duper strong scum-read on me.
I don't remember if J brought up this point, but your initial reasoning for jumping onto RR doesn't really line up.
This is all I had to say regarding her push on RR in the beginning.
J said:
A thing that makes her uneasy for me is how quickly she snapped onto RR after a period of playing the middle-woman in terms of other lynches and then she was questioning me for not automatically agreeing with her or being with her on the train of thought with wanting to lynch him.
