Data Tracking the Ninja - Greninja Video Thread

[joaoTforce]

You can kinda corkscrew up air into your opponent if an opponent is above you on a platform.

I guess but platforms seem to screw me over more than they help me. I really like playing on FD. I kinda hate the other starter stages on 3ds. I don't like yoshi's island because you can't shoot shurikens towards the middle of the stage when you're on the edge because the edge is a bit lower than the rest of the platform so it just hits the platform. So I try to play on FD or prism tower as much as I can.(I hope you guys can understand what I just typed haha)

 

[FullMoon]

... Should I be happy that I managed to get two stocks out of dabuz's Rosalina in the two matches we had against each other? Because geez.

 

[Kite0692]

Guys check this out.

Zucco vs Nakat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OhanFfjav8

 

[BlinkIV]

Wow, you`re really good. I can`t believe you`ve managed to learn Greninja this well in only 3 days.

Some things I`ve noticed that you could improve are:
- at 0:18 you started off with a Nair -> Grab -> Uthrow -> short hop fast fall Uair -> Uair combo for 32% damage which you could have extended even more with a Dtilt after the Nair. And after the SHFF Uair, the opponent was in range of a sweetspot Usmash which could then be possibly followed up by an Uair with little time for the opponent to airdodge. So the whole combo would be:
Nair -> Dtilt -> dash grab -> Uthrow -> SHFF Uair -> sweetspot Usmash -> Uair which would deal 58% damage.

- at 1:58 you, at 129% grabbed the opponent who was at 137% after 2 pummels and you used Fthrow to send him off stage and deal 5% damage. However with that much rage, Uthrow kills Captain Falcon at 142% on FD, so on Smashville which I assume has lower ceilings, Uthrow might have killed even at 137% or 139% if you added one more pummel. This is where the extra Dtilt in your first combo could have been game changing since it would have added 7% more damage to guarantee the Uthrow kill.

- at 4:53 you used Dair and missed the Fair follow up because you used the Fair too late. At 88% Dair -> Fair is a guaranteed combo if you use the Fair immediately after Dair, so next time anticipate the possibility of a Fair follow up as soon as you land the Dair which will make it easier for you to land the Fair in time.
Also the knockback angle on Dair depends on where you hit the opponent with it. It can either send the opponent in front of you like in the video or behind you. If they are sent behind you, you cannot follow up with Fair, but you can use Bair instead which is also a true combo.

You`re already one of the best american Greninja players I`ve seen so far, so I`m looking forward to your future matches once you practice with Greninja even more.

Hey man, sorry for the late reply! (I'm computerless atm). But first and foremost, thank you SO much for the feedback!

So at 0:18, I could do a dtilt after nair into grab? I'm guessing that would be considered the "optimal strat" at low %'s? No way, so insteadof 32%, I could have extended that into a 58% combo? Geez man, I'm gonna have to look into that and start applying that into my play. I had no idea I could follow up after Usmash, or what the % range for that would be. Good to know!

At 1:58, I know Uthrow can kill, but I never really did it until 150-ish, even with rage. Just so I can secure the kill 100%. But on SV I could have killed around there. Hmm..that could have definitely changed the flow of the game. I've still gotta get with the flow and remember which stages have short ceilings and which have big ceilings. Also having rage/no rage to determine the exact % ranges to do that at. I'll DEFINITELY implement that in my game for sure.

For 4:53, I didn't react quick enough to that. I think I might have gotten a little excited, haha. "YES I LANDED THE DAIR" then totally forgot I needed to follow up with an aerial. About the Dair too, I kinda experimented with something but I need more testing for it. Doing a Dair > Falling Uair > Utilt > Fair/Uair at higher %'s. Due to the AT on U-air, you can just drag the opponent into the ground and get the utilt. Ofc it's something that needs a ton more testing, aha.

Thanks for the compliment man. I'll be sure to have a stronger showing for my next tournaments. Shockwave this coming Friday, and then SaM1 on Jan 3rd. Also if you like doubles, I will be teaming with Denti (He's my regular partner) so I can show some stuff there too. =)

 

[Conda]

2 Greninja matches coming your way:

 

[PadWarrior]

@ Spirst any wii u footage?

 

[Spirst]

@ Spirst any wii u footage?

Still no, unfortunately. I have replays saved I can record with a camera but I'd like it to be good quality.

Good news though is that with the money I'd gotten for Christmas, I can put it towards getting a capture card for the Wii U and will most likely do so during the week.

 

[PadWarrior]

Still no, unfortunately. I have replays saved I can record with a camera but I'd like it to be good quality.

Good news though is that with the money I'd gotten for Christmas, I can put it towards getting a capture card for the Wii U and will most likely do so during the week.

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing it and taking notes

 

[MartinAW4]

Hey man, sorry for the late reply! (I'm computerless atm). But first and foremost, thank you SO much for the feedback!

So at 0:18, I could do a dtilt after nair into grab? I'm guessing that would be considered the "optimal strat" at low %'s? No way, so insteadof 32%, I could have extended that into a 58% combo? Geez man, I'm gonna have to look into that and start applying that into my play. I had no idea I could follow up after Usmash, or what the % range for that would be. Good to know!

At 1:58, I know Uthrow can kill, but I never really did it until 150-ish, even with rage. Just so I can secure the kill 100%. But on SV I could have killed around there. Hmm..that could have definitely changed the flow of the game. I've still gotta get with the flow and remember which stages have short ceilings and which have big ceilings. Also having rage/no rage to determine the exact % ranges to do that at. I'll DEFINITELY implement that in my game for sure.

For 4:53, I didn't react quick enough to that. I think I might have gotten a little excited, haha. "YES I LANDED THE DAIR" then totally forgot I needed to follow up with an aerial. About the Dair too, I kinda experimented with something but I need more testing for it. Doing a Dair > Falling Uair > Utilt > Fair/Uair at higher %'s. Due to the AT on U-air, you can just drag the opponent into the ground and get the utilt. Ofc it's something that needs a ton more testing, aha.

Thanks for the compliment man. I'll be sure to have a stronger showing for my next tournaments. Shockwave this coming Friday, and then SaM1 on Jan 3rd. Also if you like doubles, I will be teaming with Denti (He's my regular partner) so I can show some stuff there too. =)

The 58% combo is not guaranteed though. They can escape the Dtilt -> Grab and Usmash -> Uair part. Dtilt -> Grab works well against fast fallers but even they might be able to escape it. I`m not sure because the combo counter doesn`t register grabs as part of a combo, but I`ve never seen a lv.9 CPU escape it, so I assume it is not easy. It would be great if you could test how it works against good players using fast fallers like Sheik or Fox.
Usmash -> Uair was a true combo before the patch, but now after the increased end lag on Usmash, they have around 10 frames to escape. It`s not much, but if they are expecting it, they can avoid it.
So most of the time the Nair -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair combo you were using is the most reliable one, but against heavier characters you can try to extend it even more.

There is a very good thread which lists the kill percents of Uthrow against every character in the game on FD depending on the level of your rage. There are 3 rage levels listed 100-120%, 121-148% and above 148%. And since FD has one of the highest ceilings among legal stages, you will usually kill even sooner on other stages. Here is the link:
http://smashboards.com/threads/repo...ninja-kill-percents-wip.383093/#post-18259333

Meteor Dair -> Uair spike -> Utilt -> Uair is a true combo at higher percents and it looks really cool, but at the percents when it works, you could have instead used meteor Dair -> Shadow Sneak or meteor Dair -> Nair which are much easier to land and get the kill just as well. So if you`re in a huge lead and want to style a bit, definitely go for it, but otherwise there are more reliable combos to use from a Dair.

Great, I`ll definitely watch those games. You can also post them here once they`re uploaded.

 

[Dr.Smex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GznfHAXzz1Y

aMSa is crazy good.

 

[PadWarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GznfHAXzz1Y

aMSa is crazy good.

Any more Wii U footage of his Greninja?

 

[Dr.Smex]

Any more Wii U footage of his Greninja?

The only other one I could find is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUnn_9KDuA

That channel also has a bunch of 3DS footage but I'm not interested in that.

 

[BlinkIV]

The 58% combo is not guaranteed though. They can escape the Dtilt -> Grab and Usmash -> Uair part. Dtilt -> Grab works well against fast fallers but even they might be able to escape it. I`m not sure because the combo counter doesn`t register grabs as part of a combo, but I`ve never seen a lv.9 CPU escape it, so I assume it is not easy. It would be great if you could test how it works against good players using fast fallers like Sheik or Fox.
Usmash -> Uair was a true combo before the patch, but now after the increased end lag on Usmash, they have around 10 frames to escape. It`s not much, but if they are expecting it, they can avoid it.
So most of the time the Nair -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair combo you were using is the most reliable one, but against heavier characters you can try to extend it even more.

Yeah, I actually had a good example of that yesterday. I was doing a ladder match against a Rosalina & Luma player. I ended up doing (From 0%). B-throw > B-air > U-smash > U-air > B-air (caught the airdodge) it was somewhere around 56%? I'll experiment with Denti tomorrow night to see if I can still do D-Tilt > grab. He mains Shiek so that would definitely help out. Not to mention you could always catch the opponents air dodge and punish with a falling u-air or bair (possibly fair). I'll try and experiment more and try to find an optimal combo to use against heavier characters.

There is a very good thread which lists the kill percents of Uthrow against every character in the game on FD depending on the level of your rage. There are 3 rage levels listed 100-120%, 121-148% and above 148%. And since FD has one of the highest ceilings among legal stages, you will usually kill even sooner on other stages. Here is the link:
http://smashboards.com/threads/repo...ninja-kill-percents-wip.383093/#post-18259333

Thanks! This was a great read and tons of good stuff to know. I had no clue about 3 levels of rage being a thing. I'll definitely be securing my kills easier now haha.

Meteor Dair -> Uair spike -> Utilt -> Uair is a true combo at higher percents and it looks really cool, but at the percents when it works, you could have instead used meteor Dair -> Shadow Sneak or meteor Dair -> Nair which are much easier to land and get the kill just as well. So if you`re in a huge lead and want to style a bit, definitely go for it, but otherwise there are more reliable combos to use from a Dair.

Hold up hold up. You can do D-air > Shadow Sneak to kill? Stop giving me these ideas! I'm about to style on people so much harder now haha.

Great, I`ll definitely watch those games. You can also post them here once they`re uploaded.

I'll make sure I get on that! I'll probably do a few Nintendodojo matches and record them, or just wait for Shockwave this Friday. I typically play on Tourney Locator's stream.

P.S: I LOVE aMSa's use of Hydro Pump in neutral. He plays pretty similar like I do. Crazy stuff.

 

[MartinAW4]

I'll make sure I get on that! I'll probably do a few Nintendodojo matches and record them, or just wait for Shockwave this Friday. I typically play on Tourney Locator's stream.

P.S: I LOVE aMSa's use of Hydro Pump in neutral. He plays pretty similar like I do. Crazy stuff.

aMSa`s video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GznfHAXzz1Y ) is very useful because it shows everything we were talking about.

At 0:41 he opens up with the Nair -> Dtilt -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair combo and right after it he lands another Dtilt -> Grab, so it seems pretty reliable even against tournament players.

At 1:29 he uses the Dair -> Fair combo.

At 6:05 we can see that he even knows about hitstun cancelling with Shadow Sneak which he used to escape and punish Meta Knight`s tornado. Maybe he visits smashboards.

And some new things I`ve learned from him that I will try out are:
At 2:08 and 8:08 using Dair off stage if you get launched high to quickly fall under the stage and recover to the ledge.

And at 4:40 I really like his usage of Hydro Pump to get back from the ledge onto the stage. He uses the first pump horizontally away from the stage to push the opponent away, and the second pump back in the other direction to return safely to the stage.

 

[Jaguar360]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GznfHAXzz1Y

aMSa is crazy good.

Wow, loving those short hop F-airs and that Hydro Pump ledge game! I also like his use of Hydro Pump as a movement and getaway tool.
I've always greatly admired aMSa and it is really great that he mains both of my favorite characters. I look forward to seeing more of him.

 

[BlinkIV]

aMSa`s video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GznfHAXzz1Y ) is very useful because it shows everything we were talking about.

At 0:41 he opens up with the Nair -> Dtilt -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair combo and right after it he lands another Dtilt -> Grab, so it seems pretty reliable even against tournament players.

At 1:29 he uses the Dair -> Fair combo.

At 6:05 we can see that he even knows about hitstun cancelling with Shadow Sneak which he used to escape and punish Meta Knight`s tornado. Maybe he visits smashboards.

And some new things I`ve learned from him that I will try out are:
At 2:08 and 8:08 using Dair off stage if you get launched high to quickly fall under the stage and recover to the ledge.

And at 4:40 I really like his usage of Hydro Pump to get back from the ledge onto the stage. He uses the first pump horizontally away from the stage to push the opponent away, and the second pump back in the other direction to return safely to the stage.

Right, that's a good way to summarize our convo huh. Haha.

I think floaty characters or some with frame 3 nairs can just mash after the dtilt but before the grab. I'll have to check that to be sure. But if people aren't ready, they will get hit by it tons. I feel Greninja is kind of a sleeper in America right now, so people aren't focusing on learning this or what to do vs that.

I see a ton of applications for everything now. You think you can use the SS Hitstun cancel to escape ANY multihit moves? If so that could be game changing to a few MU's.

Yeah, didn't know that? I actually was doing that this past weekend, I thought everyone knew about it haha. Yeah it's good, a VERY nice recovery mixup offstage.

I'm gonna have to innovate the ledge game with Up-B more from seeing that. That blew my mind watching him go side to side like that. I was playing against AnTi and Bengal yesterday in doubles (wifi) and I could barely EVER get gimped due to always mixing up the recovery. That's probably my favorite part of Greninja tbh.

 

[Lavani]

The thing with SS hitstun cancel is that you can do it during light hitstun, but the move itself doesn't have invincibility (aside from the teleport, which isn't instant) and if the kick whiffs you just leave yourself open to get punished by something even stronger than what you escaped (anecdotal evidence: SS out of Mac's multijab, kick over his head and get fsmashed). I like it for things like Shulk/ZSS/Sheik fsmash the most, personally. Laggy two-part attacks that at the very least will get you safely out of a KO hit.

Hydro Pump is practically the entire reason I even play this character. Sad it got nerfed so I can't star KO people by spraying their face during their upB, but it's still so cool having a recovery comparable to Pikachu's Quick Attack except with projectile windboxes.

Also, it's nice to see some new aMSa footage again. SHI-G doesn't upload enough of his matches, his Greninja's looking great.

 

[Conda]

Me as Pit vs a pretty solid Greninja (Jagger) who is a competitive player and a solid player overall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgL1DICUAZ4

 

[Funkermonster]

Making my escape from the wasteland known as For Glory, I decided to start playing on SmashLadder yesterday, and these are my first of matches.

vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFYP88w1b-c&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=4
vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW-bkkgZDDY&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=3
vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VleMWhebB0w&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=2
vs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw2OR5ZSFyA

All and any advice/pointers are more than welcome, since I think I've been doing pretty sloppy lately.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Making my escape from the wasteland known as For Glory, I decided to start playing on SmashLadder yesterday, and these are my first of matches.

vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFYP88w1b-c&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=4
vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW-bkkgZDDY&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=3
vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VleMWhebB0w&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=2
vs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw2OR5ZSFyA

All and any advice/pointers are more than welcome, since I think I've been doing pretty sloppy lately.

Yes. Another one joins the Smashladder. Yes. Good.

Watched the Marth fight. I saw you doing some hopped shurikens in place. Try short hopping and then inputting a direction left or right then shuriken, so you're moving as well as shooting out a shuriken.

 

[Funkermonster]

Yes. Another one joins the Smashladder. Yes. Good.

Watched the Marth fight. I saw you doing some hopped shurikens in place. Try short hopping and then inputting a direction left or right then shuriken, so you're moving as well as shooting out a shuriken.

Do you mean B-reverses?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Do you mean B-reverses?

Nah. Just like this:

 

[Deleted member]

Any videos vs decent Shulks and Links? I swear I can't touch them for my life.

 

[MartinAW4]

Making my escape from the wasteland known as For Glory, I decided to start playing on SmashLadder yesterday, and these are my first of matches.

vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFYP88w1b-c&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=4
vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW-bkkgZDDY&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=3
vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VleMWhebB0w&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ&index=2
vs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw2OR5ZSFyA

All and any advice/pointers are more than welcome, since I think I've been doing pretty sloppy lately.

I`ve watched all of them and I think the most problematic match was the one against Olimar, so I`ll focus more on that one.

Overall, the main thing I`d reccomend is using fewer smash attacks in the neutral. Greninja`s smashes have a lot of end lag and are very punishable if missed, so use them only as part of your combos (like Nair/Dtilt -> Usmash) or if you`re certain they will hit. You`ve used them the most in the Olimar match and you got punished often for missing, even your first death came from a missed Fsmash.
Though I do like your use of Dsmash, so you can keep using it like you did so far and I think I will try using it some more as well.

A very good alternative to Fsmash against grounded opponents is SHFF Fair. It has less knockback, but it deals the same damage, has much less end lag and seems to be safe on shield if spaced right. Another advantage is that you can use it from a dash and it is great for punishing projectiles by jumping over the projectile and landing the Fair while they`re stuck in end lag. And in general it`s very useful against characters with short ranged melee attacks like Olimar.
I think you`ve noticed that a long ranged disjointed hitbox would work well against Olimar to get through his projectiles, which is why you`ve been using more smash attacks, but in this case SHFF Fair and Nair would have been safer.
And even on Battle Field, you don`t have to worry about the lower platforms because despite Greninja`s short hop being very high, it`s not high enough to make you land on the platforms when doing SHFF aerials from the ground.

An alternative to Usmash against opponents in the air is Shadow Sneak. After Usmash`s hitbox and end lag nerfs, it became much less safe to use against opponents trying to land because it can get beat by some Dairs or dodged and punished. That`s why I find using SS for punishing landings safer since it avoids all Dairs and cannot be shielded in the air. All they can do is airdodge, but that makes them suffer landing lag which prevents them from punishing your SS. It is also more unexpected because you can do many mixups with it like running in one direction and Shadow Sneaking in the other direction or jumping to bait out the airdodge and using SS which will hit as the airdodge ends thanks to its delay. Usmash is still a good anti-air move, but the SS mixups will make your Usmash usage more unpredictable.

For edgeguarding recoveries like Olimar`s or DHD`s, run off Bair stage spike is very good. You used one at 1:13 in the Olimar video and barely missed him, but you had another great opportunity at 1:26 which you didn`t use.

Also try to always avoid using Dair for landing on the stage, especially if your opponent is close by. That is what cost you your last stock against Olimar. Use Hydro Pump for landing instead, it is much harder to punish.

Actually in general whenever you find yourself above the opponent, try to get away from them and land safely on the ground. Greninja`s options from above are very bad (Dair and Nair) and beaten by basically every anti-air move, so never approach your opponent if they launch you into the air. Just retreat and reset to neutral.
That`s what caused you to lose your second stock in the Olimar match at 3:02 when you tried to approach him from above with a Nair after getting ledge trumped. In this case falling below the stage and using a SH Fair back on stage would have been better.

That`s all I`ve got, so good luck with your Greninja and I hope this helps. The other matches were pretty good, so I think if you learn the SHFF Fair and play more safely, you will do really well.

 

[Funkermonster]

I`ve watched all of them and I think the most problematic match was the one against Olimar, so I`ll focus more on that one.

Overall, the main thing I`d reccomend is using fewer smash attacks in the neutral. Greninja`s smashes have a lot of end lag and are very punishable if missed, so use them only as part of your combos (like Nair/Dtilt -> Usmash) or if you`re certain they will hit. You`ve used them the most in the Olimar match and you got punished often for missing, even your first death came from a missed Fsmash.
Though I do like your use of Dsmash, so you can keep using it like you did so far and I think I will try using it some more as well.

A very good alternative to Fsmash against grounded opponents is SHFF Fair. It has less knockback, but it deals the same damage, has much less end lag and seems to be safe on shield if spaced right. Another advantage is that you can use it from a dash and it is great for punishing projectiles by jumping over the projectile and landing the Fair while they`re stuck in end lag. And in general it`s very useful against characters with short ranged melee attacks like Olimar.
I think you`ve noticed that a long ranged disjointed hitbox would work well against Olimar to get through his projectiles, which is why you`ve been using more smash attacks, but in this case SHFF Fair and Nair would have been safer.
And even on Battle Field, you don`t have to worry about the lower platforms because despite Greninja`s short hop being very high, it`s not high enough to make you land on the platforms when doing SHFF aerials from the ground.

An alternative to Usmash against opponents in the air is Shadow Sneak. After Usmash`s hitbox and end lag nerfs, it became much less safe to use against opponents trying to land because it can get beat by some Dairs or dodged and punished. That`s why I find using SS for punishing landings safer since it avoids all Dairs and cannot be shielded in the air. All they can do is airdodge, but that makes them suffer landing lag which prevents them from punishing your SS. It is also more unexpected because you can do many mixups with it like running in one direction and Shadow Sneaking in the other direction or jumping to bait out the airdodge and using SS which will hit as the airdodge ends thanks to its delay. Usmash is still a good anti-air move, but the SS mixups will make your Usmash usage more unpredictable.

For edgeguarding recoveries like Olimar`s or DHD`s, run off Bair stage spike is very good. You used one at 1:13 in the Olimar video and barely missed him, but you had another great opportunity at 1:26 which you didn`t use.

Also try to always avoid using Dair for landing on the stage, especially if your opponent is close by. That is what cost you your last stock against Olimar. Use Hydro Pump for landing instead, it is much harder to punish.

Actually in general whenever you find yourself above the opponent, try to get away from them and land safely on the ground. Greninja`s options from above are very bad (Dair and Nair) and beaten by basically every anti-air move, so never approach your opponent if they launch you into the air. Just retreat and reset to neutral.
That`s what caused you to lose your second stock in the Olimar match at 3:02 when you tried to approach him from above with a Nair after getting ledge trumped. In this case falling below the stage and using a SH Fair back on stage would have been better.

That`s all I`ve got, so good luck with your Greninja and I hope this helps. The other matches were pretty good, so I think if you learn the SHFF Fair and play more safely, you will do really well.

Thanks will keep all that in mind next time, this is precisely the advice I may have been looking for. But about the bold words on why I might've been using all those smashes, that's kinda true. But I think my actual reaction for the excessive smashing was because of Olimar's Pikmin Throw, I'm not really used to fighting this character and had great unfamiliarty with this matchup, and whenever he tossed his Pikmin I kinda took my attention away from Mar himself and tried to kill his Pikmin with smash attacks since I didn't know what else to use. That's also why I missed a few Bair stagespike oppurtunities, I think I remember at least in one instance while he was offstage, I still had one of the little buggers on me and focused more on it than Olimar offtsgae.

But thanks!

 

[Mocha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GznfHAXzz1Y

aMSa is crazy good.

This has to be some of the best Greninja gameplay I've seen so far. We could learn much from this, and expand even more once we have a firm grasp on the basics. The way this guy moves with the character gives us the illusion that Greninja is very fluid, when in reality, one needs strict, hard inputs to be able to move that well, and not keep lagging with his moves, namely aerials. His recovery was on point too, even at times where it looked like he was going to SD.

I look forward to seeing the direction Greninja's mega will take over time, and I encourage all of you to keep finding ways to develop our frog into a deadly ninja.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah Amsa was doing some swag stuff with up-b to edgeguard.

 

[MartinAW4]

Actually I find aMSa`s second video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUnn_9KDuA ) even more impressive than the first one. This is the first video where I saw a player use perfect pivot so consistently, mainly with PP Utilts and Dtilts or just to show off after a KO. He also used great SS tricks, SS hitstun cancelling to escape combos, RAR B-reversed Water Shurikens, he got a Hydro Pump gimp and even used Substitute for edgeguarding. He seems to know every Greninja technique found so far.

He has really improved since the last time I`ve seen his matches in the 3DS version. He might have even surpassed Nietono as the world`s best Greninja player.

 

[FullMoon]

That man is my idol.

Though how exactly do you do that thing where he jumps in a direction, then turns around while keeping momentum as he fires a shuriken? Is that what b-reversal does?

 

[Lavani]

I'm not 100% sure which you're referring to, so I'll just cover all bases:

B-Reverse

Turnaround B

Wavebounce

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah I was talking more about wavebounce. Thanks! I'm gonna start practicing those inputs later, that seems really useful. Though I don't quite get how Wavebounce should be inputed.

 

[Lavani]

Wavebounce is turnaround B + B-Reverse

You can lightly hold back to turn around while doing neutralB, but the game will also keep your last back input in memory for a decent amount of time and automatically turn you around if you flick the control stick back and then do a neutralB afterward. Alternately, I think diagonal inputs with B-Sticking let you do turnaround neutralB easily, but I don't have Wii U to verify.

Put simply, do one of the following:
, then
(lightly) +
or
and then B-Reverse it. ()

The turnaround B timing is pretty lenient, I get it a lot accidentally when I try to throw a shuriken after drifting backward in the air.

 

[KERO]

I'll go ahead and finally post some of my own videos.

KERO (Greninja) v Katakiri (MK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQj8T4tkWsw
KERO (Greninja) v Fizzle (Ness)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndLFXEusuvc

KERO (Greninja) v JT (Sonic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAjK6Skp6NE

KERO (Greninja) v Fumbles (Rosalina) Only one game was recorded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8XU7FUB2Ms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8XU7FUB2Ms
KERO (Greninja) v Mister Eric (R.O.B.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DySBrjZVG0

KERO (Greninja) v Katakiri (MK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTUcsksgFpA

Couple of things to note: This is the first Sonic I played post-patch so I didn't really know how to deal with him. I still think R.O.B. is in our favor. Still hate Ness. Finally, these all took place over the weekend, so they're all recent, and I believe my Greninja is finally decent enough to post these.

 

[BlinkIV]

I'm not the best at giving feedback but, I can say a few things that I see. Hopefully it's good enough.

So looking at majority of the matches, you seem to commit to rolls/spot dodges often in the "Neutral" position. The first thing I recommend is to take some time and toss some Shurikens, or if you know you can pressure them easy. Approach with Crossup Nairs, or sometimes do SH Fairs to "wall" opponents out.

I also noticed there was a few instances you went for random pivot grabs. Not necessarily being in the opponents head, but just tossing it out and hoping "Hope he runs into this one!, you know? Greninja is the type of character that can really get into an opponents head and leave them demoralized from the pressure/mixups. So if you're able to consistently get into an opponents head and kinda "destroy" the mindset they have. You already have a 95% advantage in the match, and potentially the set.

These are just things I noticed player-wise.

I can toss some Ness advice against Fizzle, since I practice with Austin a lot. I also beat a Ness this past tournament (pretty badly), but hope it helps!

First and foremost: NEVER be afraid to throw WS at Ness. His Magnet can't recover HP from Shurikens. The best he can do is F-Smash the shuriken to go back at you. But at that point you can shield it and punish him with a grab/nair/fair most of the time.

Also rule of thumb against Ness: Mixup your approaches. If he catches that you go for jumping/sh approaches, he can always punish you with rising fair/nair 100% of the time. It's a little rough to deal with.

Lastly: There were some instances against Fizzle that you would do up-throw and then do hydro pump, even at higher %s. I don't 100% agree with doing that. When you're under Ness, you have a big chance to secure to kill. You can wait for him to get closer in the air and then swat him with uair/fair, or bait the air dodge and punish. I only recommend using Hydro Pump when he's offstage and doing PKT..You can kill him easily everytime if you're able to push his body away from the thunder "thing".

Hope it helps..like I said, i'm not the best at giving feedback. btw quick note I think Ness/Greninja is in our favor.

 

[KERO]

First of all, thank you so much for the advice. The only real concern I have with Water Shuriken is just how slow it is now. I do throw them out every now and then, especially when I see the opponent sitting on the other side, but when they're approaching, I find it best to get in a position where I can better intercept said approach (as you said, walling Fairs and whatnot).

One of the reasons I've begun throwing out pivot grabs is less of a "Ha! I knew you'd run here!" And more of a "Hey, I need to create some distance, re-assess the situation, etc.,. If you dare step into this giant grabbox I'm making with any non-disjointed hitboxes, you're gonna suffer." It feels really safe and hard to punish from what I can tell, much like Oli's pivot grab. If they run in to try and punish, I can jab or Dtilt right after as well. Although, I agree that I need to be better at reading opponents in general (I'm terrible at this mind haha). I preach it all the time that Greninja needs that and then fail to capitalize on it myself.

There's actually another Ness I play that is quite a bit more aggressive and will take shurikens as a sign that he can approach, and I hate giving him any freedom at all to move and not feel pressure. I have a terrible time keeping Ness out once he gets that freedom of approach, and I just haven't found Water Shuriken to be really all that helpful in keeping Ness away in this case. I find that he tends to jump over them, putting him in the air too far for me to potentially run in and punish, allowing him to adjust his positioning perfectly to combat Greninja's blind spot. Again, though, I will try to use Water Shuriken more if you say it's a good option.

As for mixing up approaching options... yep. Although, getting close to Ness in general is really scary for me. His grab is deadly.

As for the Hydro Pump thing... I'm pretty sure his Nair beats out everything we have in the air sans Fair. I just prefer playing it safe with Hydro Pump I suppose. Baiting the airdodge is easy enough if I can scare him, but spacing a Fair on someone floaty like Ness with a giant hitbox like Nair seems really difficult.

Again, though, thank you so much for pointing out some issues I have. It's best to have someone else evaluate your issues than trying yourself haha. I still believe that the Ness/Greninja MU is just not in Greninja's favor, though. I'll be bringing a Ness to Apex (the one I talked about earlier), and if you would be willing, have you two play some friendlies. I know it sounds super stubborn and whatnot, but I really want to see you two play so that I can get a better understanding of what you see in the MU that I don't.

 

[PadWarrior]

Man I really want to see more of amsa greninja

 

[Funkermonster]

You just gotta see this short clip, down taunt being used in a combo (

https://vine.co/v/OpAn3DMTdVr

It was done on a CPU, but seeing this was almost golden...

A tournament set today I had on stream, against this good player, a character I don't know how to go up against. My Greninja game starts at 4:47, but I switched to Megaman afterwards, and unfortunately still lost: http://www.twitch.tv/gamingzoneaz/b/609489761

Still have other sets from my tourney that I will upload from my phone later. Any help is welcome.
EDIT: my other tourney matches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gcp6_x3dRM&index=1&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsPpNHdY5w&index=2&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ 2nd game only, used Pac-Man in the first.

Had my little cousin record these, and the 2nd video is badly angled though.

 

[KingHerpOfDerp]

Hey guys, went to KiT 15 this weekend and managed to get a game on stream.

Link: http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/3677187

My match starts at 02:38:00

 

[Shack]

The amount of PP DTils in that aMSa vs Luigi match is insane! It gives me hope that Greninja might be able to move back up into a top contender since it is a possible reliable punish, approach, and retreat that leads into combos.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

discuss some greninja tatics as i play for glory!