Data Tracking the Ninja - Greninja Video Thread

[Maurogon88]

Hello fellow greninja players,
I have a few matches I recorded that i wish to share. Been putting alot of work into my greninja and well any feed back will be great. I have a alot more videos if interested, alot of them i get owned but thats just how things go.

Greninja vs Ike Game 1
http://youtu.be/b_fI7lN09nk

Greninja vs Ike Game 2
http://youtu.be/ikG0eDEh9xc

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Really good Greninja gameplay here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF5Ptiv1DFo

 

[DrizzyDrew]

2nd part of training for APEX
and give tips about Greninja : )

 

[Lavani]

2nd part of training for APEX
and give tips about Greninja : )

Only watched the first match so far, I'll just jot down some thoughts:

0:18 - There isn't a reason to be using Shadow Sneak onstage at percents like this, it doesn't get you a KO, its damage isn't really anything special, and it's a move with heavy commitment that can get you punished.
0:27 - Vertical counters are your friend. At this percent, I would've angled it straight down for 14% damage, and to bounce off the ground to act more quickly.
...though I'll admit I didn't know a horizontal attack would whiff Dedede like that.
0:43 - I like what you went for here (I've never actually done grab releases with Greninja before), but you could've followed it up better. Runoff bair or full jump dair would've knocked Dedede under the stage if they hit and he wouldn't have made it back.
1:58 - Again, not really sure what the point of this Sneak was. It actually would've been great used a few seconds sooner to punish Dedede's upB landing lag, but it was obvious and punishable here.
2:10 - Should be holding the direction you expect dair to send them if it hits, you missed a dair>fair combo here for it.
...and I suppose I'll just ignore the rest of that match since you seemed intent on connecting a Substitute KO rather than playing seriously.

General things:
- You commit to a lot of unsafe attacks, particularly at percentages where it isn't worth doing so. I see you doing low percent dsmash/fsmash and shadow sneak a fair bit, which on top of being comparatively unrewarding at such percents are so laggy even a character like Dedede can roll/spotdodge>smash attack punish for a KO, or get off a combo such as jab>jab>grab>pummel>dthrow>bair for an easy 33%. You should use safer attacks such as jab, dtilt, sh nair, retreating sh fair, and dash attack at lower percents; they're all much safer moves, and they start combos that get you more damage than the riskier attacks you're throwing out.
- You seem a little unsure about how to handle Gordos. Nair, fair, and utilt all have disjoints that will safely knock them back, though the former two have startup and the latter can be a little awkward depending on its trajectory. After around half its lifespan (apex of the second bounce, essentially) the Gordo's hitbox should be small enough that you can reflect it safely with anything. Substitute vs Gordos is a TERRIBLE idea, Dedede can act before you'll hit him and is free to shield and punish.
- I noticed some odd attacks at the ledge such as fsmash that had no chance of hitting Dedede as he was going to the ledge. If you're trying to hit during ledgesnap vulnerability, I think dsmash (and shadow sneak?) is Greninja's only option for that, and there's so much end lag it's hard to justify going for.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

Only watched the first match so far, I'll just jot down some thoughts:

0:18 - There isn't a reason to be using Shadow Sneak onstage at percents like this, it doesn't get you a KO, its damage isn't really anything special, and it's a move with heavy commitment that can get you punished.
0:27 - Vertical counters are your friend. At this percent, I would've angled it straight down for 14% damage, and to bounce off the ground to act more quickly.
...though I'll admit I didn't know a horizontal attack would whiff Dedede like that.
0:43 - I like what you went for here (I've never actually done grab releases with Greninja before), but you could've followed it up better. Runoff bair or full jump dair would've knocked Dedede under the stage if they hit and he wouldn't have made it back.
1:58 - Again, not really sure what the point of this Sneak was. It actually would've been great used a few seconds sooner to punish Dedede's upB landing lag, but it was obvious and punishable here.
2:10 - Should be holding the direction you expect dair to send them if it hits, you missed a dair>fair combo here for it.
...and I suppose I'll just ignore the rest of that match since you seemed intent on connecting a Substitute KO rather than playing seriously.

General things:
- You commit to a lot of unsafe attacks, particularly at percentages where it isn't worth doing so. I see you doing low percent dsmash/fsmash and shadow sneak a fair bit, which on top of being comparatively unrewarding at such percents are so laggy even a character like Dedede can roll/spotdodge>smash attack punish for a KO, or get off a combo such as jab>jab>grab>pummel>dthrow>bair for an easy 33%. You should use safer attacks such as jab, dtilt, sh nair, retreating sh fair, and dash attack at lower percents; they're all much safer moves, and they start combos that get you more damage than the riskier attacks you're throwing out.
- You seem a little unsure about how to handle Gordos. Nair, fair, and utilt all have disjoints that will safely knock them back, though the former two have startup and the latter can be a little awkward depending on its trajectory. After around half its lifespan (apex of the second bounce, essentially) the Gordo's hitbox should be small enough that you can reflect it safely with anything. Substitute vs Gordos is a TERRIBLE idea, Dedede can act before you'll hit him and is free to shield and punish.
- I noticed some odd attacks at the ledge such as fsmash that had no chance of hitting Dedede as he was going to the ledge. If you're trying to hit during ledgesnap vulnerability, I think dsmash (and shadow sneak?) is Greninja's only option for that, and there's so much end lag it's hard to justify going for.

thanks for the tips man seriously. It was a combination of a really bad connection and just having alittle fun with him. For Glory doesnt exactly have the best players online most of the time. I will take your feedback and I know most of it for the most part. Keep smashes for kills to keep to from being stale and dont abuse the counter. Counter down is really good for aerial counters so i dont miss the punish. Your right shadow sneak is a very punishable move that should not be thrown out. I try to use it defensively almost like it own counter when I am next to an opponent and we trade spot dodges and such. What grab options do you do? For early percents I usually do a dthrow into a jab combo. Not the most realiable, but I save up throws for later percents and go for the uair damage or kill. I need to use his neutral a in the air more. I am still getting use to the fact that he has a very high jump and I need to slightly tap it for the attack to land. Hydro pump is also great for pushing opponents off. Im still getting used to the timing but do a hydro pump vertical to a slanted direction is best I find. Since vertical to the right or left isnt always reliable unless positioned correctly.

 

[Funkermonster]

A tournament set today I had on stream, against this good player, a character I don't know how to go up against. My Greninja game starts at 4:47, but I switched to Megaman afterwards, and unfortunately still lost: http://www.twitch.tv/gamingzoneaz/b/609489761

Still have other sets from my tourney that I will upload from my phone later. Any help is welcome.
EDIT: my other tourney matches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gcp6_x3dRM&index=1&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsPpNHdY5w&index=2&list=UU0RMA482bkRmw4pukDNhPgQ 2nd game only, used Pac-Man in the first.

Had my little cousin record these, and the 2nd video is badly angled though.

Wondering if someone can give me some criticism to improve my Greninja. Anything?

 

[Lavani]

What grab options do you do?

Uthrow>uair is what I go for the vast majority of the time, but I don't necessarily aim to combo it. If I don't do it immediately, I generally delay it slightly so I can either spike into dtilt>regrab or land before the final hit and do another uair. If they airdodge, uair's landing lag is low enough that you can fastfall and punish their landing lag with jab, dtilt, grab, etc.

Near the edge I like fthrow>uncharged water shuriken. If they start double jumping to dodge the water shuriken you can fair/RAR bair instead.

Haven't really messed with dthrow at all, if there's low percent stuff with it I might need to start doing so. I've seen this, but doing stuff like this on a 3DS is near impossible and I'm pretty sure Sheik could've double jumped or naired or something after the dthrow.

Wondering if someone can give me some criticism to improve my Greninja. Anything?

Watched the Wario match, your Greninja reminds me of my own lol

I saw two moments where I would've gone for a dair (unless Smashville's lower boundary is higher than 3DS stages, idk), and I feel like you kept going for low percent uthrow>usmash when your opponent was clearly set on double jumping after the throw. Other than that, I don't really have anything I could add.

Nice job hitting him out of his ledgesnap at 4:50:15.

 

[FullMoon]

If you predict an air dodge at low percentages you can also do this.

It's very good depending of the match-up and deals a nice amount of damage too. I've used it a few times when I played against KERO =P

 

[DrizzyDrew]

Uthrow>uair is what I go for the vast majority of the time, but I don't necessarily aim to combo it. If I don't do it immediately, I generally delay it slightly so I can either spike into dtilt>regrab or land before the final hit and do another uair. If they airdodge, uair's landing lag is low enough that you can fastfall and punish their landing lag with jab, dtilt, grab, etc.

Near the edge I like fthrow>uncharged water shuriken. If they start double jumping to dodge the water shuriken you can fair/RAR bair instead.

Haven't really messed with dthrow at all, if there's low percent stuff with it I might need to start doing so. I've seen this, but doing stuff like this on a 3DS is near impossible and I'm pretty sure Sheik could've double jumped or naired or something after the dthrow.


Watched the Wario match, your Greninja reminds me of my own lol

I saw two moments where I would've gone for a dair (unless Smashville's lower boundary is higher than 3DS stages, idk), and I feel like you kept going for low percent uthrow>usmash when your opponent was clearly set on double jumping after the throw. Other than that, I don't really have anything I could add.

Nice job hitting him out of his ledgesnap at 4:50:15.

Wanna play dome friendlies?

 

[Lavani]

I've only got the 3DS version, I'm not really sure if that's the kind of practice you want.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

Yea don't own that one..not getting the wii u? Got a 3ds, it's pretty sweet. Oot is still great

I've only got the 3DS version, I'm not really sure if that's the kind of practice you want.

Actually don't own that version. .not getting wii u?

 

[Lavani]

Nope. Don't have a Wii U, and I don't have any plans to drop ~$300 just to get another version of a game I already have.

 

[Hokuwokk]

Can someone PLEASE explain wtf amsa was doing 25 seconds in the video with water shuriken? He does it a lot more times in the video.. looks like he pivoted in the air and wen he did

water shuriken..

 

[Lavani]

Can someone PLEASE explain wtf amsa was doing 25 seconds in the video with water shuriken? He does it a lot more times in the video.. looks like he pivoted in the air and wen he did

water shuriken..

I'm not 100% sure which you're referring to, so I'll just cover all bases:

B-Reverse

Turnaround B

Wavebounce

At that specific spot, he jumps backwards and does a B-Reverse Water Shuriken twice.

 

[Makani]

How to fight Rosalina:

Or what I like to do anyway.

 

[Hokuwokk]

At that specific spot, he jumps backwards and does a B-Reverse Water Shuriken twice.

What to yu mean specific spot? Lol im trying to do the commands u put there and i never get that lil bounce does. I pretty much just get turnaround b every time

 

[MartinAW4]

What to yu mean specific spot? Lol im trying to do the commands u put there and i never get that lil bounce does. I pretty much just get turnaround b every time

Those were just simplified commands. If you want to do a wavebounce like aMSa at 0:25 and 0:26 in the video, here are the precise inputs you have to perform:
1. Jump backwards (with your back facing the opponent)
2. Press B
3. Press the circle pad towards your opponent immediately after pressing B

 

[Kite0692]

Hey this is a match I had. If you could analize it I would appreciate it. Sorry for the bad quality btw.

I accept anything you say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR88OTO1mLQ

 

[Mocha]

Hey this is a match I had. If you could analize it I would appreciate it. Sorry for the bad quality btw.

I accept anything you say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR88OTO1mLQ

Not yet in my place to give Greninja advise, so it'll be more of a compliment, rather than a suggestion. Good match there. Something that stood out to me was you trying to punish their air dodges. Someone mentioned earlier that doing an empty hop to follow your opponent's air dodge, can be a decent tool to try to catch them with an aerial follow-up.

One thing in particular that I like is when you missed your up air, but you had the time and spacing to use a back air after. Nice gimp earlier too. Also, is it safe for Greninja to use some sort of aerial when he's going back to the stage? It seems risky, since there's a bit of delay after his aerials to put him in a tricky spot for when he needs to recover.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Coming back to the stage with uair can be decent if you're under the stage as you double jump back on. If they shield it, you can drift back off stage and up-b to the ledge.

 

[Kite0692]

One thing in particular that I like is when you missed your up air, but you had the time and spacing to use a back air after. Nice gimp earlier too. Also, is it safe for Greninja to use some sort of aerial when he's going back to the stage? It seems risky, since there's a bit of delay after his aerials to put him in a tricky spot for when he needs to recover.

1 - Actually, he can hit me after air dodge (or air dodge again). I just went behind him because his bair is slow enough to let my bair hit him first. If he used fair (which he used) or Uair he would not hit me. Maybe with Nair he would, I don't know.

2 - Coming back to the stage I like to use double jump Fair (since it reaches really far).

I'm trying to start using reverse counter to face my back to the stage so I can use Bair while recovering, but I have to test it out. I think that it will be really great though.

 

[Coffee™]

Might as well post this here too. Will be uploading random stuff from time to time.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZ4AjB7HdKJ_bA9neOvqWw/videos

 

[Xiao-Xiao]

Give me some feedback. I don't really play this game that much since I don't have a wii u but i need some pointers regardless.

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/v/3699484

at 05:43

 

[MartinAW4]

Here is the match from B.E.A.S.T 5 between Eddy`s Greninja (which for some reason looks like Sheik in the thumbnail) and Armada`s Diddy. He played really well and even managed to take a game off Armada. It really seems that Greninja handles the Diddy matchup pretty well.

And D1 mentioned that he also plays Greninja which he proved with his combo and kill % knowledge. I wonder if he lurks these boards from time to time.

 

[Mocha]

He sure likes his grabs, heh. Thanks for linking this. Does jabbing twice with Greninja lead to a near 'guaranteed follow-up'? I noticed that I tend to hit more with my grabs, ftilt, and smashes as follow-ups from jabbing twice sometimes.

 

[MartinAW4]

He sure likes his grabs, heh. Thanks for linking this. Does jabbing twice with Greninja lead to a near 'guaranteed follow-up'? I noticed that I tend to hit more with my grabs, ftilt, and smashes as follow-ups from jabbing twice sometimes.

Greninja doesn`t have any guaranteed follow-ups from Jab1 -> Jab2 other than Jab3 or multi-jab. Fsmash, Dtilt or dash grab are nice mix-ups that test the opponent`s reaction speed, but they can all be escaped after our Jab cancel.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

3rd part
Also show a hydro pump gimp for a certain character, always hype doing the hydro gimp

 

[Mocha]

Greninja doesn`t have any guaranteed follow-ups from Jab1 -> Jab2 other than Jab3 or multi-jab. Fsmash, Dtilt or dash grab are nice mix-ups that test the opponent`s reaction speed, but they can all be escaped after our Jab cancel.

That's why I said 'near' guaranteed. I was curious as to how small the window is for the opponent to be able to escape your follow-ups.

Anyway, I don't understand why Eddy counterpicked Kalos when a flat stage seems easier for Diddy to get a grab. Unless I'm missing something. Other than the fact that Kalos Pokémon League is awesome, wouldn't a stage with at least one platform be better vs Diddy?

 

[MartinAW4]

That's why I said 'near' guaranteed. I was curious as to how small the window is for the opponent to be able to escape your follow-ups.

Anyway, I don't understand why Eddy counterpicked Kalos when a flat stage seems easier for Diddy to get a grab. Unless I'm missing something. Other than the fact that Kalos Pokémon League is awesome, wouldn't a stage with at least one platform be better vs Diddy?

Jab1and Jab2 hit on frame 3 and you can cancel them into another move on frame 21. So that`s 18 frames just to cancel the Jab. If you follow it up with Dtilt which hits on frame 5 (our fastest Jab cancel follow-up), you will give the opponent a minimum of 23 frames to react. With dash grab it`s 27 frames and with Fsmash it`s 31 frames.
The fastest possible human reaction time is 7 frames and the average reaction time for something you expect is 15 frames, so even our Jab cancelled Dtilt comes out slow enough for an average player to react to it if they know it`s coming.
But if they don`t expect a move, reaction time decreases to around 42 frames which is enough for us to even land an Fsmash. That`s why Jab cancels are good mixups to surprise the opponent, but stop working if used too much.

I`m not entirely sure which stage would be best against Diddy, but I can understand the logic behind choosing a stage without platforms. While it`s true that such stages allow Diddy to grab us more easily, the same applies the other way around. And Greninja`s dash grab is not only one of its best approaches, but it also has a lower start-up time and longer range than Diddy`s. And when coupled with our faster dash speed, we win the dash grab game in all aspects. That`s why a stage that favors dash grabs is more beneficial to us than Diddy.
No platforms also makes it harder for Diddy to avoid our Water Shurikens which seem to be very useful in this matchup. And when it comes to one character standing on a platform above the other, while both characters have the advantage when they can attack from below, I think that Diddy`s Uair and Fair are a lot scarier than ours. So overall, I think that platforms would benefit Diddy more than us and that`s why I think the stage without platforms was a good choice.

 

[Mocha]

Jab1and Jab2 hit on frame 3 and you can cancel them into another move on frame 21. So that`s 18 frames just to cancel the Jab. If you follow it up with Dtilt which hits on frame 5 (our fastest Jab cancel follow-up), you will give the opponent a minimum of 23 frames to react. With dash grab it`s 27 frames and with Fsmash it`s 31 frames.
The fastest possible human reaction time is 7 frames and the average reaction time for something you expect is 15 frames, so even our Jab cancelled Dtilt comes out slow enough for an average player to react to it if they know it`s coming.
But if they don`t expect a move, reaction time decreases to around 42 frames which is enough for us to even land an Fsmash. That`s why Jab cancels are good mixups to surprise the opponent, but stop working if used too much.

I`m not entirely sure which stage would be best against Diddy, but I can understand the logic behind choosing a stage without platforms. While it`s true that such stages allow Diddy to grab us more easily, the same applies the other way around. And Greninja`s dash grab is not only one of its best approaches, but it also has a lower start-up time and longer range than Diddy`s. And when coupled with our faster dash speed, we win the dash grab game in all aspects. That`s why a stage that favors dash grabs is more beneficial to us than Diddy.
No platforms also makes it harder for Diddy to avoid our Water Shurikens which seem to be very useful in this matchup. And when it comes to one character standing on a platform above the other, while both characters have the advantage when they can attack from below, I think that Diddy`s Uair and Fair are a lot scarier than ours. So overall, I think that platforms would benefit Diddy more than us and that`s why I think the stage without platforms was a good choice.

I appreciate you gathering the calcs for the frames; this really helps me get a better idea on how fast each input would come out, and the time it would take for the opponent to react to them. With these numbers in mind, it makes sense that our Jab 1 + Jab 2 + followups should be mixed up, since they aren't always reliable due to opponent's reaction time. I'm a very... jab happy person, so I need to keep note of this.

As for stages for Diddy and Greninja, I can see how the platforms would benefit Diddy - in fact, this reminds me of ICs in Brawl where they can jump Up air underneath the platform repeatedly. Platforms can also sometimes get in Greninja's way as well, so it's a kind of double-edged sword with Diddy having more benefit. Which brings me to ask if we had a Diddy MU discussion yet?

I'm about to head to class, so I can't go through the older pages of the MU discussion yet, but if we haven't already, I'd be interested in what you all had to say about this MU, since Diddy is the most common threat right now.

 

[FullMoon]

Which brings me to ask if we had a Diddy MU discussion yet?

I'm about to head to class, so I can't go through the older pages of the MU discussion yet, but if we haven't already, I'd be interested in what you all had to say about this MU, since Diddy is the most common threat right now.

No, we haven't, next week is going to be Villager, Duck Hunt, R.O.B (*eye twitch*) and Bowser Jr.

We should probably discuss him at some point though.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

(*eye twitch*)

 

[Xiao-Xiao]

Alright thanks for the help greninja bros. I'll try my best at apex

 

[BlinkIV]

I love platforms against Diddy. Well I love platforms for Greninja in general. I must be the odd one of the crew, aha.

 

[Marilink]

So I was fortunate enough to get 3rd at a tourney up in Minneapolis yesterday, and even more fortunate in that some of my matches got recorded! Since a lot of matches are being uploaded and rendered still, I will just post the Smash 4 matches that are up:

Winners Round 4: Me vs. Xeelt (Rosa, ZSS)
Losers Round 8: Me vs. Sinnyboo242 (Shulk, Villager)
Losers Quarterfinals: Me vs. Ayman (THIS SET IS SO TENSE--Diddy)

So far I have only watched the set against Ayman. I noticed that he misses a lot of opportunities to finish me off...but I'd like to think that I was mixing him up. Idk, you be the judge.

Critiques are very much welcome! I want to win this thing next month.

 

[Mocha]

@ Marilink

Winners Round 4: vs Xeelt

vs. Rosalina: Awesome up air pressure on her first stock, and just general bair/upair when juggling her. Also, the hitbox on her head is so deceiving and hits you like a mile away when she dash attacks/upsmash <.<

vs. Zero Suit Samus (part 1); Sooo close, was at the edge of my seat lol. I think you got a little too hungry for the upsmash, though some of those could have been an error in input. Nice Shuriken to grab pressure.

vs. Zero Suit Samus (part 2): So fluid here, just awesome. Loved your usage of back air, and again, overall pressure. Curious about the stage selection though, heh.

Loser's Round 8: vs Sinnyboo242

vs. Shulk (part 1): Welp. This MU is weird and I have no idea what to do in it, other than try to stay 'out of his range'. I think he caught on to your grab attempts, and it messed up your momentum. Also, when recovering to the stage, I know this may sound odd, but I actually like to use a shuriken sometimes when I'm coming back onto the stage because it briefly 'pauses' you in the air and gives you more time to angle your recovery.

vs. Villager: One thing that really stood out to me, and I know Substitute is gimmicky, but you can actually use it on Villager's rocket/side b (as a mix up of course).

vs. Shulk (part 2): Don't have much comment on this yet.

UofM Monthlies Losers Semis: vs Ayman

vs. Diddy (part 1): I wish I knew how to do smart rolling like you do. You made yourself tricky to hit/get grabbed, which is essential in the Diddy MU. Lots of Upsmash from you - not sure if this was a Battlefield thing or not to cover more range. I always panic when I use Greninja's smashes, especially by accident, due to how much cooldown they have :/ close game, good effort.

vs. Diddy (part 2): I absolutely hate Lylat Cruise for Greninja, as the tilting of the ship messes up our shurikens and it limits our recovery options. Only thing I can really say about this match is to watch your overusage of smashes and shadow sneak recovery option, cause you got punished a number of times for this. I bet that fsmash ending the game early felt like quite a relief. Intense stuff.

vs. Diddy (part 3): You used more shurikens here, and I think this helped you a bit for some poke/pressure. Props to you for DI'ing away from Diddy's throw consistently, and lovely Shadow Sneak kill at the end :]

---

The Kirby video said 'it wasn't available' so it's possible the owner removed it. Anyway, overall, I like your Greninja, and I look forward to seeing more from you. Keep it up, Marilink!

 

[PadWarrior]

Amsa was streaming his greninja earlier today
http://www.twitch.tv/amsayoshi/b/616302587

 

[Marilink]

Thanks for the tips, Mocha! After watching I did notice that I get punished for raw U/Fsmashes a lot. I'll need to work on that.

I'm not a big Lylat fan, but it is awful for Diddy. It destroys his recovery. It never happened there, but he has to go high because going for the ledge will almost always result in him blowing up.

 

[Jaguar360]

I finally got my own copy of the game two days ago and this is my first For Glory match. Still trying to adjust to the controls and get my approach with Greninja down, but Greninja's coming along nicely and feels great. Thanks to "Will" for being my first opponent.

 

[Mocha]

The fact that you can crouch under Zelda's upsmash gives me further reason to believe it's her worst move lmao. Jaguar, do you plan to try out the Wii U version sometime, by any chance? It's really hard for me to go back to 3DS after playing the Wii U now o:

This Zelda had so many missed opportunities, that I was more angry that she killed you early with Up B, than rooting for her.