Top Players & Videos by Character

[Hylian]

You know, it's possible to think I'm better than someone after playing them and watching them play people I have played a good amount in person and still have humility, I was giving my honest opinion and would be lying if I said otherwise. If either of you had met me in person I think we would not be having this discussion regardless of what I said.

There is nothing wrong with thinking I am better than Sol/IE because I played them and watched a lot of their matches. There is nothing wrong with them thinking they are better than me either, it's just an opinion(one that I was asked to give). If sprawlers had said something along the lines of "There is nothing to show from SKTAR that you are actually better looking at results/brackets" then I would have agreed and just reinforced that it's my opinion and there isn't any solid evidence either way aside from Wolf. I'm taking this seriously because I feel I'm being mis-understood and I really enjoy getting along with everyone at tournaments and not causing tons of salt over things that don't mean that much to me. If you want to know why I think i'm better than Sol/IE it's because Sol did janky things like fair -> up-b on shield and his OoS reactions didn't seem to be quick and IE had some bad habits like up-b Oos things that weren't safe and getting punished for it and not knowing links recovery options and dying for it when he could have lived much longer(for example I never once saw him tether cancel).

Wolf was incredibly polished and didn't do anything janky and I couldn't pick out bad habits which is why I was super impressed by him. I know I personally have some bad habits that I've been working on(I pull bombs too close to my opponents and I don't use rang enough for example) and I use all of this information from analyzing players when playing them and watching them to evaluate my opinion of their skill. This is how my thought process works, it's not me being arrogant or anything of the sort I just like to analyze things and think of them logically.

Obviously I am just one person and it's just my opinion, Sol/IE could very well be better than me and if a lot of people thought so from playing all of us then I would be inclined to agree.

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah, I just reviewed my post and nothing I said was abrasive. All i've asked (and this is a PSA to everyone in this topic) is that you shouldn't claim you are top 3 unless you are open to being called out and have a solid foundation to stand on. Honestly, there should be a rule in this topic that you can't nominate yourself. That's partially why this topic stopped being about talking about skill and other peoples play, and instead turned into a **** measuring contest.

For the record, my penis is at least an inch longer than Awestin's although its most likely much smaller than Bryonato's (what a doll).

EDIT:

Just read Hylian's post. I think your methodology of assessing skill is pretty flawed because it compares your total experience and knowledge of yourself as a player against a snapshot of how a few people are playing in one or two matches over the course of two days. If you really want to give an honest opinion not founded in hubris, you would accept the fact that these players are competent and seem to do well, and you'd just give them the credit they deserve (i.e. they are solid but they are not as good as Wolf or Nick Riddle). Fact: playing well can not be falsely replicated. Playing badly or imperfectly happens to everyone.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Dammit NZA and Sprawlers stole what was gonna be my Hylian call-out, LOL.

At least we now have the Hylian-stamp-of-approval on what we at Smashing Grounds have been saying for six months - Wolf is the best damn Link out there. I think, of course, Aerolink and Lazarond compete for that spot too and would love to see them compete with Wolf. I would've said Nick Riddle too, but from what I understand, Nick lost to Wolf in dittoes (in addition to placing worse).

Hylian, I'd also like to point out that prior to SKTAR, you were regularly in the Smashing Grounds chat criticizing Wolf for 'unpolished' gameplay and underdeveloped bomb play. Now that you've played him, you see that you were wrong and that the man is polished.

Clearly, your methodology for ranking players is flawed and you should not be considered an authority on anything Link besides your tech stuff, which has been very useful for a lot of players.

On a final note, I all the time hear complaints from people at Smashing Grounds losing to sol - 'he's so janky,' 'his 'ranging is so predictable,' 'ugh i shouldn't have lost to him.'

Guess what?

They still lost to him. Own up to the loss and stop using some arbitrary method of comparing who is better.

 

[Humble Dojo]

Im just gunna go ahead and bump The Nza's up to $100, and add
Hylian vs Apollo Ali to the list

 

[E2xD]

Oh yeah, we never did that Money Match Hylian. Also, my opinions on the table:

I do not believe winning a ditto proves you are a better character; it is more of, you know the matchup better. Albeit winning a majority of the Link dittos at apex, with the exception to Wolf, Kubuu, and a couple games to Hylian, I think Hylian does have a better Link than SoL and IE as he didn't have any bad habits (except his bomb shenanigans) that left him vulnerable, and he know's the character and his limits more than the other two (PM wise).

I will agree that Wolf has one of the most polished Link's but the only issue I found out about him is that he lacks a lot of Matchup experience. Needless to say, his fundamentals are very stong with the exception of rang overusage but hey, he placed top 16 and has results. The same can be said about Hylian. I believe he has a grasp of his character who has very limited habits to exploit and a strong grasp of the fundamentals of the game. Not saying he is top 3 cause I'm coming for that spot soon, just need some damn results and money to travel, and nerves of steel, and the blessings of the goddesses...but needless to say, he is much better than what people give him credit for.

By the way, this is from the viewpoint of originally not liking how Hylian plays (from recorded matches/streams) to actually respecting his playstyle (after playing him in person). Needless to say, I was Hylian impressed. #BadPuns

 

[DLA]

DLA presented himself as an up and coming player of diddy to the community and to this thread, boasting of a win over Kels and other better players in his region. I hadn't seen any replays, and I'm not trying to present an elitist point of view. However, after seeing him and Kels at UFGTX, DLAs performance and understanding of the character don't support him being top 3 with June, Boss, Hashtag, seagull Joe, and I still playing strongly.

Okay... first of all, if you didn't notice, I BEAT Kels in that set (which made it twice in a row, since I beat him last time I fought him too). If you think there are a lot of players better than Kels, you should ask around in the MW because a lot of them will tell you he's one of our top 3 best players. I believe he's won more Chicago locals than anyone else in the past few months. Sure, you can say he was playing bad because he was nervous, but guess what... I was nervous as **** too. I rewatched those videos and was appalled by how poorly I was playing. No patience whatsoever. But I got the reads when I needed to and pulled out the W. It might have been really sloppy, but that's often the case against spacies. Not to mention I was playing onstage in front of 100+ people (thousands more if you count the stream viewers) against Chicago's best Melee player just for the right to come back to the bracket the next day. Draw any conclusions you'd like from that video about my ability to perform under intense pressure, but if (by your own admittance) it's the only video you've EVER seen of me, I don't know why you'd think you have the authority to speak about my skill. Especially if I WON the match anyways.

So my counterargument: I was playing like a nervous ****wreck, and STILL beat one of the best MW players. If you still think I lack the "understanding" to be a top 3 Diddy, then either watch more Chicago streams/videos, or wait till you see me in person and $MM me yourself...because I'm pretty sure most Diddies would lose that money against me. Also accepting bananas for currency.

 

[Hylian]

Dammit NZA and Sprawlers stole what was gonna be my Hylian call-out, LOL.

At least we now have the Hylian-stamp-of-approval on what we at Smashing Grounds have been saying for six months - Wolf is the best damn Link out there. I think, of course, Aerolink and Lazarond compete for that spot too and would love to see them compete with Wolf. I would've said Nick Riddle too, but from what I understand, Nick lost to Wolf in dittoes (in addition to placing worse).

Hylian, I'd also like to point out that prior to SKTAR, you were regularly in the Smashing Grounds chat criticizing Wolf for 'unpolished' gameplay and underdeveloped bomb play. Now that you've played him, you see that you were wrong and that the man is polished.

Clearly, your methodology for ranking players is flawed and you should not be considered an authority on anything Link besides your tech stuff, which has been very useful for a lot of players.

On a final note, I all the time hear complaints from people at Smashing Grounds losing to sol - 'he's so janky,' 'his 'ranging is so predictable,' 'ugh i shouldn't have lost to him.'

Guess what?

They still lost to him. Own up to the loss and stop using some arbitrary method of comparing who is better.

I don't think I've ever watched a smashing grounds tournament, only seen videos on youtube. I may have watched one briefly but I don't watch them because I work the nights that they are on so it probably wasn't me saying that stuff. There are a lot of other Hylians on twitch that people confuse with me. I certainly have not criticized wolf for unpolished play in a stream chat, I told wolf in person what I thought of his videos actually before playing him..because I like telling people things in person not hiding behind my keyboard. I'm not sure why you want me to own up to a loss in a FRIENDLY. What in the world is up with people taking friendlies so seriously lmao. I play to learn in friendlies or play to do fun silly ****, which is very different from how I play in tournament/mm's. I'll use whatever method I like to compare who is better, it doesn't even matter to anyone but me and certainly not for anyone else to tell me how to think. I've already said before SKTAR that I rate players weirdly and what I say in terms of rankings should not be taken too seriously. This is ridiculous nitpicking from a bunch of people who have NEVER PLAYED ME. Why don't you ask Wolf what he thought? Or the other links who played me like E2xD who just posted above? Or anyone who played me in bracket/money matches?

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Did any Link players play the following players at SKTAR 3? Sethlon, Denti, Oracle, Infinity. I'm curious to know how that player fared versus them.

 

[Deleted member]

Denti 4 stocked a link player named e2xd in bracket

 

[Hashtag]

There is so much... ego in this thread lol.

Okay... first of all, if you didn't notice, I BEAT Kels in that set (which made it twice in a row, since I beat him last time I fought him too). If you think there are a lot of players better than Kels, you should ask around in the MW because a lot of them will tell you he's one of our top 3 best players. I believe he's won more Chicago locals than anyone else in the past few months. Sure, you can say he was playing bad because he was nervous, but guess what... I was nervous as **** too. I rewatched those videos and was appalled by how poorly I was playing. No patience whatsoever. But I got the reads when I needed to and pulled out the W. It might have been really sloppy, but that's often the case against spacies. Not to mention I was playing onstage in front of 100+ people (thousands more if you count the stream viewers) against Chicago's best Melee player just for the right to come back to the bracket the next day. Draw any conclusions you'd like from that video about my ability to perform under intense pressure, but if (by your own admittance) it's the only video you've EVER seen of me, I don't know why you'd think you have the authority to speak about my skill. Especially if I WON the match anyways.

So my counterargument: I was playing like a nervous ****wreck, and STILL beat one of the best MW players. If you still think I lack the "understanding" to be a top 3 Diddy, then either watch more Chicago streams/videos, or wait till you see me in person and $MM me yourself...because I'm pretty sure most Diddies would lose that money against me. Also accepting bananas for currency.

I'll ditto mm all the top diddys if I run into you guys at a tourney. :D

With the exception of disqo, we're from the same/close region (s).

 

[Deleted member]

with the exception of rang overusage

do not understand please explain

 

[E2xD]

Denti 4 stocked a link player named e2xd in bracket

Zach to the rescue. Yeah, I played Denti in bracket and Oracle spent the night in my hotel room day 2 so I got to play him a bit there.

do not understand please explain

I have found from playing him to watching his matches that he uses rang a lot more than necessary but this isn't bashing his style. This is just an observation, not a critique. As stated, it works for him, so I'm not one to combat his playstyle. I just see how he can and has been punished for being overly reliant on his rang. I mean, it's Link's best tool, why not use it? So to make sure you get my point, it was a mere observation and can be punished by characters that can reflect and punish + players who can powershield efficiently.

 

[KayB]

What's the reasoning behind the choice of videos ? I'm surprised not to see *Zen's sets against aMSa in the OP.

I have to constantly put up a lot of videos (and sometimes I'm busy, I don't always have a lot of time), and sometimes I overlook a few videos where the losing player performs phenomenally. It's generally easier for me if I just place the video under the victorious player. However, if people point out that x player performed really well in this set despite losing (like that Hax vs Mofo set in Melee haha) then I will gladly put that video under that section.


Also, I don't understand why people are treating these like PR's. They're not lol. You want to be ranked more accurately you should probably make your own PRs or make a thread where you do the exact same except with a PR like method. GL doing that though, doing this is hard enough as it is. I make mistakes. I'm just human. Please be patient with me if the orders in names aren't accurate enough.
More than anything, this is just supposed to be a good place for archiving videos of great players.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I have a top 5 , almost as good as my idol Junebug.

 

[Empyrean]

The amount Junebug has improved in the last months is astounding. He's easily top 10 in PM at this moment.

 

[Oracle]

Man and I thought my region was the one that overhyped our players...

Once hylian masters the triple bomb attack hell be unstoppable

Also im kind of sad I didnt get to play junebug since hes the only diddy kong I havent played yet and he looks really good.

 

[Hylian]

People aren't ready for the triple bomb attack Oracle..not yet...

 

[Deleted member]

People aren't ready for the triple bomb attack Oracle..not yet...

Hylian's Link: Boston Marathon Edition - now with a pressure cooker texture mod for Link's bombs!

everyone who likes this post is also a terrible human being just like me. i know i'm not the only one out there.

 

[Juushichi]

I'm only going to say this one time.
I will never be replaced as best Zelda in the world and I will accept any and all challenges for that position as always.
I dont think this list is very accurate in terms of Zeldas anyway.
Also, being active all of the time is something that shouldn't be a requirement for these sort of ''statistics''.
Meta, Ingenuity, creativity, playstyle, and overall gameplay is something that this list should put ahead of results in terms of ''top players by character.''
Placing well at one event vs placing well at multiple is not enough evidence to throw someone else off of the list for someone newer.
However, I can say with all certainty, I dair any of you to challenge me in a Zelda ditto.

edit: I say this in the most feminine tone as possible, i love a good challenge. <3

We should Zelda ditto again sometimes, Zhime! Come to Ohio some time ffs!

To answer @Rizner:

I would put Zelda's as...
#1 Zhime da gawdess
#2 Salem
#3 Probably KoreanDJ?

 

[Spralwers]

PM is such an unknown game that the community can come to an agreement on who the best players are, and then those best players can go to a national and lose to (or in some cases, get steamrolled by) unknown people. We don't really know what a lot of characters will actually look like when played at a high level, especially because MU knowledge is very underdeveloped. That's why, at least for now, it's poor judgement to use your personal experiences playing people in friendlies, MMs, and bracket to judge skill, and allow those judgements to be reinforced just because people agree with you. If it's all in fun banter though (since that's what we love doing, judging skill), never mind.

When we at Smashing Grounds play Wolf, it seems like Wolf is just a really solid player, perhaps even a high level player. Hylian, E2xD, and anyone who lost to him in bracket and sktar come to the same conclusion from playing him. But when he fights the actual high level people, like KDJ, you see he still has a long ways to go. The last time KDJ fought Wolf in tournament (which was a few SGs ago), KDJ completely steamrolled Wolf. 2 stocked him the first game, 3 stocked him the second, and 2 stocked him the third. Using Marth. And Wolf is pretty experienced in fighting Marths. He's fought KDJs Marth a few times before, and he's training Marth as a secondary, so it's not like he doesn't know what the character can do, and he's not inexperienced in the MU. Not actually trying to pick on Wolf here, I'm just using this as a specific example we can all relate to (since a lot of us have played Wolf) to show that us mid level players aren't really in a position to judge how good someone's fundamentals really are from playing them, even if a bunch of us agree.

A lot of our players who do well in smashing grounds are mid level players, and you see that they're clearly mid level when they fight some of our vets (like Darc, KDJ, and Elen). We've had strong players from elsewhere (i.e. Riot, HeySuess, Slox, M2K, Soft, Zero, and others) steamroll most of our good players. On average, our best players are mid level, which is why me, Poob, and Sol can sometimes do really well too. But we are getting closer to reaching the overall skill level of our veteran players.

In person, we as a community are overall less critical and much more supportive, mainly because we just want to play and get the most we can out. Online is where we are most critical, just part of the territory. No need to resort to the "acting tough behind the keyboard" argument, it's just the way it is. Hylian is not exactly innocent of this, either. If you told me in person though that you thought you were the second best Link at sktar (even if I asked), we'd have a similar argument.

I'm glad we were able to come to some sort of mutual understanding. I don't argue much (this might have actually been my first or second serious argument the entire time I've been on smashboards), but when I do I go all out. I won't be doing anything like this for a while just because it's so time consuming. It was fun though, I don't actually have any hard feelings for anyone here. Part of my call out post was meant to be silly, stupid and in some ways kinda hilarious (especially with the MM), and I see a good few people took it that way, so mission accomplished.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

@ KayB I dont know if you have looked around at different threads for information on top players, but http://smashboards.com/threads/3-0-tournament-results-archive-5-27-14.344216/ is an archive of 3.0 tournament results with videos on a lot of them. Seeing as you use results and videos often, this should be a great place for you to look. It probably will be terribly time consuming for you though :/

 

[The_NZA]

We destroyed Soft. Don't include him on that list.

 

[ELI-mination]

It's a shame that the vast majority of pm play at sktar was not streamed or recorded so the community could see just how close all the matches were

 

[KayB]

It's a shame that the vast majority of pm play at sktar was not streamed or recorded so the community could see just how close all the matches were

I guess this is a good lesson that whenever we go to bigger tournaments we should all bring recording equipment just in case.

 

[ELI-mination]

Well I can tell you a few things from memory.

Zhime vs Chu was super close, game 3 last hit.

Guru choked hard against this guy Lazy and barely lost game 3 to Wolf's Link, the timer went down to 13 seconds left on Lylat.

My match against Raptor was:
Game 1 I barely beat his Yoshi with Dk.
Game 2 he 3 stocked my Dk with Yoshi
Game 3 I 2 stocked his Yoshi with Luigi

Gallo vs Milkman was game 1 and 2 Mario vs Lucas and game 3 I'm trying but I need Fox

Rolex beat my Luigi with Snake 2-0 and it was close, although I had way more trouble with Rolex than Professor Pro mostly due to Professor Pro never fighting a good Luigi

My set with Pink Fresh was game 3 last hit, although game 1 I jv 3 stocked him finishing with dtilt jab reset - > up-b. I choked super hard and dropped a significant lead the next two games but no johns he's mad good.

Me and Gallo wrecked Chu/Chillin in doubles 2-0 decisively. Although Chu tried to run the timer game 2 but we caught him.

Rolex vs Junebug was really close, I thought Junebug actually had it but Rolex came back at the end.

Esam vs Zero was 2-1, all Samus vs Pit. I don't remember where the first game was but game 2 was FD and game 3 was Yoshi Story

Me/Gallo lost 0-2 to Rolex/Zero, both games were very close, last stock high damage.

Me/Gallo lost in losers to Junebug/Seagull 1-2. Last game was on distant planet, I blame myself for SDing at 35% which cost us the set but ggs.

Most sets were game 3 and very close. Oh and Frozen beat Salem quite badly and taunted aka mewtwo up throw irl lol

 

[Hylian]

That's why, at least for now, it's poor judgement to use your personal experiences playing people in friendlies, MMs, and bracket to judge skill, and allow those judgements to be reinforced just because people agree with you.

Sorry, I just 100% completely disagree with this logic. There are many things you can tell about players from playing them in serious games that are next to impossible to tell from watching videos. This is why people who had played both EmuKiller and M2K have said that Emu is the better M2 much to the skepticism of the community. Looking at who plays beat/lost is far more important than just a placing, and playing them yourself and watching them play others you have played is even more important for judging skill. My judgement is not poor, your logic is poor for putting so much importance on one bracket. If you asked me in person we wouldn't be having this argument because I would just say "I don't care" and if you just straight up said I was fraudulent to my face(which I really doubt you would) I would simply ask you to money match after inquiring about who you were first. So how about we money match Link vs anyone you want for $100? After that, I'll money match you with 10 different characters for $5 each(you can still use your mains) to show you how much I "rely" on Link to carry me. Enough of this silly bantering, put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Nguz95]

@ KayB Can we change the title of this thread to "To Clear Things Up: Link Edition"?

 

[Oro?!]

I can throw boomerang and beat all of you fraud Links. #dealwithit

 

[POOB]

Also I think that losing the ditto of any character is not a testament of who is better with that character, SFAT comes to mind because he is wildly known for being bad at the Fox ditto MU but he is considered one of the best players in the world AND Fox player in the world. So I don't think losing the ditto means really anything unless it is very consistent amount losses.

Hear THAT Strong Bad, Eli, and Oracle?!?! Dittos dont mean ****! :D Lost to all 3 of you despite oracle having never mained DK lmao I'm a fraud

 

[ELI-mination]

Don't forget I "poob comboed" you.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Lol @ DLA
Fine dude, have the spot if it means that much to you babe. Just aint accurate

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Did frozen play mainly Mewtwo? And mewtwo in teams as well??

 

[DLA]

Lol @ DLA
Fine dude, have the spot if it means that much to you babe. Just aint accurate

Last I checked, I'm not the one **** talking YOU in multiple threads just to enlarge my own ego. You get more butthurt over this list than any other Diddy out there dude. And I'm glad you have such a good grasp on what's "accurate", seeing how you watch so many videos of a player before trashing them publicly.

 

[~Dad~]

Hey guys I'm the best Squirtle right? I mean nobody even plays this character sooooo... c:

 

[ELI-mination]

Frozen went all mewtwo despite my trying to convince him to go Lucario in doubles so he can get aura from Zhimes dins fire

 

[~Dad~]

Frozen went all mewtwo despite my trying to convince him to go Lucario in doubles so he can get aura from Zhimes dins fire

You can get aura from clanking with dins? That's awesome.

 

[POOB]

Don't forget I "poob comboed" you.

Nope, you only got one side b

 

[Spralwers]

You are using an example of specific character control to refute my post of overall skill and fundamentals. It doesn't quite work that way.

Emukiller stated that one of the chief reasons for his success was people not knowing the M2 MU, including Prof Pro, Armada, and M2K. I don't know about Prof Pro and Armada, but M2K admitted he didn't have any experience. Which means that if M2K, Prof Pro, and Armada studied the M2 MU since sktar, it's possible Emukiller wouldn't be able to win if he played them in a serious set right now. That is the sort of skill and fundamentals I am referring to.

Also, I highly doubt you would have said, "I don't care" if I asked you who you thought the best Links were. KayB asked you your thoughts on the tournament and certain players (albeit online), and you went out of your way to say you were the second best Link.

As for the MM, sure, I'll do it. The big tournaments I plan on attending are Zenith, Shuffle, Big House, and Apex. I'm not sure if I'll make it to Shuffle and BH, but Zenith I'm 90% certain and Apex is guaranteed. Since you didn't take the claim to the MM well, I backed off and stopped picking on your skill, but if you're up to the challenge and want to give me your money, let's do it.

edit:

Looking at who plays beat/lost is far more important than just a placing, and playing them yourself and watching them play others you have played is even more important for judging skill.

The farther from being a top level player you are, the less the bolded part matters.

 

[metroid1117]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[ELI-mination]

Dammit metroid