Deva
Smash Lord
haha, guess the second one didnt copy, fixed though.
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Toon Link Stage Counter Picks/Bans {BOWSER!}
- Thread starter Sosuke
- Start date
Please don't tell me to get my facts straight when you clearly don't have your's. LeeHarris is not good and did not do good(or even play against) Azen. DMG(tied for 2nd in Texas) BEAT Azen at Hobo11. Knocked him into the losers brackets with wario. Roy_R went even with DSF when they played, and played 3 games against M2K in which he lost the first two and won the 3rd. I've traveled to Florida and played a lot of EC players and I've played DSF and Edreese so I know pretty well how we compare. I've played against M2K and Azen more then I have some people in texas. Calling Santi "Mediocre" is halarious. You wouldn't know though as you didn't watch him take M2K to last stock over 100% MK vs TL.
I'll admit I don't personally know how good WA players are(I've played DSF and Edreese so I have a pretty good feel for cali) so I base my judgements on preformance against players I do know. Washington has a pretty small smash scene as far as I can tell and it really seems that people like chip are really secluded from the rest of the USA for whatever reason.
That's fine with me. I can't ever prove you wrong if you don't travel.
Deva
Smash Lord
Wow, or you could seriously stop trying to start arguments when there is no need to. It doesnt matter who in Texas did well. Fact is I pointed out that Texas wasnt bad and used a matchup I heard about. sorry I meant to say LeeMartin. But I was actually defending your state and it's reputation against top players. There was honestly no reason for you to go off on such a tangeant about how good your players were if you had just read my post. But if you're gonna bring up the subject, how many of the later matches you mentioned were actualy tournament? For a lot of them you just said "played." How is it possible for Roy_R to beat M2K in the 3rd game of a set when he lost the first two? Did Santi bring M2K to 1 stock in tournament, and if so how well did he do the other rounds? Friendlies honestly dont mean anything.
So if you base experience off players you've played, you basically just dug yourself a hole there. There's no way you can Deny DSF is a top player, right? The match I posted was Jem vs DSF in tournament. You don't have the right to say Jem isn't a top player based on your logic since you've played DSF. Also, Chip does travel lmao. Again, get your facts straight. He's been to Oregon and Cali for several tournaments and has played a lot of top ranked players all over WC. Not to mention he beat HugS in tournament and 3 stocked him in friendlies. Aside from that he's beaten SideFX, Tudor, and several other Californian players in tournament. Not to mention countless players he's beaten in MMs. I dont know where you got the misconseption that he doesnt travel.
So if you base experience off players you've played, you basically just dug yourself a hole there. There's no way you can Deny DSF is a top player, right? The match I posted was Jem vs DSF in tournament. You don't have the right to say Jem isn't a top player based on your logic since you've played DSF. Also, Chip does travel lmao. Again, get your facts straight. He's been to Oregon and Cali for several tournaments and has played a lot of top ranked players all over WC. Not to mention he beat HugS in tournament and 3 stocked him in friendlies. Aside from that he's beaten SideFX, Tudor, and several other Californian players in tournament. Not to mention countless players he's beaten in MMs. I dont know where you got the misconseption that he doesnt travel.
Chip.
you know what to do
That's enough.
From this point forward, if I see any more discussion pertaining to the arguement over the past 2 pages about Game and Watch/Valdens/West Coast/Hyrulian/etc. or any other irrelevent discussion not pertaining to the thread's current purpose (counterpick and banned stages vs. Ganondorf), then I will give infractions to those people. If you're a moderator, I will personally delete your post and bring it up to the administrators if you don't post relevent discussion to the topic of this thread. This is getting out of hand.
Have a nice day and a Merry Christmas
.
From this point forward, if I see any more discussion pertaining to the arguement over the past 2 pages about Game and Watch/Valdens/West Coast/Hyrulian/etc. or any other irrelevent discussion not pertaining to the thread's current purpose (counterpick and banned stages vs. Ganondorf), then I will give infractions to those people. If you're a moderator, I will personally delete your post and bring it up to the administrators if you don't post relevent discussion to the topic of this thread. This is getting out of hand.
Have a nice day and a Merry Christmas
.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Rainbow Cruise works well against them. The moving stage doesnt let them infinite u. Frigate Orpheon can work too to throw both of them off the right side of the stage so that nana gets gimped and theres no more infinite. Always, always have a bomb in hand. Platform stages work too. Ban stages that are small.
Lobos
Smash Master
Icies eh.....bad FD.....CP any stage with platforms lol (battlefield or lylat are good)
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Lylat, Rainbow Criuse, Norfair, Frigate Orpheon.
Those are some CP's
FD, Yoshi's Island (brawl), Halberd
Stuff with alot of flat ground are what you wanna ban.
Those are some CP's
FD, Yoshi's Island (brawl), Halberd
Stuff with alot of flat ground are what you wanna ban.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Oh yeah, I forgot norfair the lava can interrupt their infinite and theres a lot of platforms for u to plank in XD. And lylat's tilting can mess with their timing of the infinite and is in general a good TL place.
I apologize to the TL boards for acting this way. Moderators really shouldn't get into stupid arguments like this.
Chip, want me to delete all the posts pertaining to it? You can if you want.
Chip, want me to delete all the posts pertaining to it? You can if you want.
Norfair is banned in various parts of the East Coast.
Brinstar is pretty good with the lava and such. Not a lot of room for you to camp, but it has lumps everywhere and the sides and ceilings are reasonable so you won't have trouble killing (well, not more trouble anyway, probably less).
Ban flat stages, most definetly, such as
Smashville, Final destination, Battlefield, as ice climbers dominate on flat land.
Counterpick moving and hazerdous stages, they mess up our grabs and can be bad for our recovery, with nanas ******** AI an all.
Rainbow cruise (a lot of moving = bad for ice climbers)
Norfair (Lava and ledges)
Jungle Japes (Nana...)
Possibly green hill zone, since those slopes are horrible for ice climbers, just don't get grab on the flat part.
Smashville, Final destination, Battlefield, as ice climbers dominate on flat land.
Counterpick moving and hazerdous stages, they mess up our grabs and can be bad for our recovery, with nanas ******** AI an all.
Rainbow cruise (a lot of moving = bad for ice climbers)
Norfair (Lava and ledges)
Jungle Japes (Nana...)
Possibly green hill zone, since those slopes are horrible for ice climbers, just don't get grab on the flat part.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Norfair isnt banned here in PR though. Weird, norfair isnt banned here and luigis mansion and corneria are. @_@
Chip.
you know what to do
Haha, it doesn't matter to me wheather those posts get deleted or not. As long as no more arguements continue any further I'm fine
.I'd also like to apoligize for starting this arguement and getting so off topic with my posts so a BIG sorry to everyone
.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ike's best CP stage (the one you should ban) without a doubt is, ironically enough, Pirate Ship. The water takes away his biggest weakness: recovering, and plays to one of his best strengths: spiking. Aetherspiking, Dtilt spiking, Dair spiking, bair to stagespiking, it's all here. Ike is a total beast here. Heck, the stage even gives Ike a wall when it's stuck on the wall for him to use as an infinite with his fthrow. The mast lets Ike get breathing space when he needs it, the catapult doesn't bother him nearly as much as it does for the majority of characters. The main ship is just right size for Ike's spacing and jabbing game, without being so big that he can be projectile camped. The ship has slants for Aethersliding as well. The ONLY time Ike is even close to being in danger here is when the ship first gets sucked up into the tornado if he was still in the water at that time. Once the ship starts coming down, he can use the slow falling speed to his advantage and use some of his longer lasting aerial attacks multiple times.
His next best stage is probably Green Greens. The blocks stop projectiles, the platforms are low enough for him to abuse with his great vertical range, the side stage platforms are small enough this his Usmash covers the whole thing, very small blastzones for early KOing and a lower chance of being gimped. The apples help Ike as well thanks to his DACIT (new tech thingy where Ike can slide a LONG distance if he has a projectile in hand, including Toon Link's bomb, and throws it allowing him to use any attack as he slides. We're talking 3/4 of FD, even longer if he uses Counter. DACIT -> Jab -> Pivot Grab is amazing), or he can just plain old throw them at TL/heal with them.
Corneria(sp?) is up for debate if it's a good stage for Ike. Some say yes, some say no.
For counterpicking Ike: Go for Jungle Japes. He fails there. Hard. Especially against projectile uses (though Falco is the worse). The water screws him up too much, as does the spacing of the platforms. Rainbow Cruise should work, but some Ike mainers are actually getting not bad there thanks to Ike's aerial spacing game. Toon Link's projectiles should counter that fairly well though, as long as you don't get KOed off the top at insane %s. Frigate can work thanks to the ledge, but you also have to watch out for it. Bthrow off the ledgeless side = free Fsmash for Ike the majority of the time.
After that, it often depends on how the Ike plays for CPing stages against him.
His next best stage is probably Green Greens. The blocks stop projectiles, the platforms are low enough for him to abuse with his great vertical range, the side stage platforms are small enough this his Usmash covers the whole thing, very small blastzones for early KOing and a lower chance of being gimped. The apples help Ike as well thanks to his DACIT (new tech thingy where Ike can slide a LONG distance if he has a projectile in hand, including Toon Link's bomb, and throws it allowing him to use any attack as he slides. We're talking 3/4 of FD, even longer if he uses Counter. DACIT -> Jab -> Pivot Grab is amazing), or he can just plain old throw them at TL/heal with them.
Corneria(sp?) is up for debate if it's a good stage for Ike. Some say yes, some say no.
For counterpicking Ike: Go for Jungle Japes. He fails there. Hard. Especially against projectile uses (though Falco is the worse). The water screws him up too much, as does the spacing of the platforms. Rainbow Cruise should work, but some Ike mainers are actually getting not bad there thanks to Ike's aerial spacing game. Toon Link's projectiles should counter that fairly well though, as long as you don't get KOed off the top at insane %s. Frigate can work thanks to the ledge, but you also have to watch out for it. Bthrow off the ledgeless side = free Fsmash for Ike the majority of the time.
After that, it often depends on how the Ike plays for CPing stages against him.
Kirk
Smash Champion
Short Version:
Ban: Pirate Ship
Counterpick: Jungle Japes
Post above covered it pretty well.
Ban: Pirate Ship
Counterpick: Jungle Japes
Post above covered it pretty well.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Yay, that means I didn't screw up.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Dang, kirk and nitendo, I read your whole post then Kirks, and just said "dammit"! lol
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Ike
BAN:
Corniera, BF, and stages with close bounderies
CP: FD, Lylat(lol I prosose this alot huh?) Frigate orpheon, and stages where he cant really avoid your camping
BAN:
Corniera, BF, and stages with close bounderies
CP: FD, Lylat(lol I prosose this alot huh?) Frigate orpheon, and stages where he cant really avoid your camping
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
At above posters- What if jungle japes is banned? U should include more than 1 stage. I personally think Frigate Orpheon and FD work well against him. As does rainbow cruise.
Kirk
Smash Champion
RC is debatable...I personally find that it works very well for Ike when playing safe and using his aerial range to its full potential. The near blast zones at specific points in the stage are also a nice bonus...not to mention a wall or two(hardly makes a difference, but notable nonetheless). Recovering is an issue at times, but that's something we are aware of, naturally. More or less it depends on who you're playing(the person playing Ike), as it's more of a preference issue than anything.
People have CP'd Frigate Orpheon on me before...but I don't find it that troublesome...there's only that one side where there is no ledge to grab on to...which can screw you out of a stock if you're unlucky. Also, the blast zones are a bit further out than other stages. Otherwise, I see no major problems with it. Platforms are scattered throughout, which is always helpful. Also, it has those random platforms that pop in on each side which can potentially help in recovering. Overall its a pretty simple layout if you ask me.
FD can be used to compliment one's camping game, but projectiles/camping aren't the end-all solution to beating Ike. It helps for sure, no doubt in that, but it shouldn't be your sole reasoning. In this particular matchup, I can see it shifting in TL's favor, however.
I've little experience on this, but Norfair has always been a pain for me. Other people like the stage for Ike, but I think it's a disadvantage for him. Any other thoughts on this(For both Ike and TL)?
People have CP'd Frigate Orpheon on me before...but I don't find it that troublesome...there's only that one side where there is no ledge to grab on to...which can screw you out of a stock if you're unlucky. Also, the blast zones are a bit further out than other stages. Otherwise, I see no major problems with it. Platforms are scattered throughout, which is always helpful. Also, it has those random platforms that pop in on each side which can potentially help in recovering. Overall its a pretty simple layout if you ask me.
FD can be used to compliment one's camping game, but projectiles/camping aren't the end-all solution to beating Ike. It helps for sure, no doubt in that, but it shouldn't be your sole reasoning. In this particular matchup, I can see it shifting in TL's favor, however.
I've little experience on this, but Norfair has always been a pain for me. Other people like the stage for Ike, but I think it's a disadvantage for him. Any other thoughts on this(For both Ike and TL)?
chaos11011
Smash Lord
Ban
S
CP:RC,FD,FO
SCP:RC,FD,FO
iRjOn
Smash Lord
Norfair is already banned in some areas
Like mine
But Toon Link cant really camp
So unless the character requires no camping
Which Ike does
Then Norfair is not a good CP
Better to Ban it
Ikes air game pwns Toon Link so picking any stage where air is where you going to be with out the ability to camp
Is not smart
Thats my thoughts...
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
BTW: Lylat isn't that bad of a stage for us. It's out main CP against the spacies after all. The platforms help Ike's game a lot, and the tilting helps against projectiles more often then it screws us over when recovering. We just have to aim higher with aether.....which can be taken advantage of by Toon Link most likely.
As for FD, someone on our board thinks FD is better against Toon Link then BF so again, it's really player dependent when it comes to Ike. I know that doesn't help much, but this is Ike we're talking about. If we don't play differently from every other Ike, we die. FD is most likely a usable CP, just be ware that some Ikes like to use that stage against TL for some reason....I personally don't understand it. It's a safe bet to CP with FD.
I for one personally hate Smashville. It's big enough to make projectile walls, small enough I can't space properly, and the platform as a vendetta against me. It would seem like a good CP against Ike to me.
As for FD, someone on our board thinks FD is better against Toon Link then BF so again, it's really player dependent when it comes to Ike. I know that doesn't help much, but this is Ike we're talking about. If we don't play differently from every other Ike, we die.
FD is most likely a usable CP, just be ware that some Ikes like to use that stage against TL for some reason....I personally don't understand it. It's a safe bet to CP with FD.I for one personally hate Smashville. It's big enough to make projectile walls, small enough I can't space properly, and the platform as a vendetta against me. It would seem like a good CP against Ike to me.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Comic Sans???
WHY??? TOON LINK BOARDS? You make me sad.
WHY??? TOON LINK BOARDS? You make me sad.
chaos11011
Smash Lord
I thinks you should ban JJ because Jiggz is nasty over there
CP:Corenia
(Ill goet more later)
CP:Corenia
(Ill goet more later)
Ban either Jungle japes, or smashvile, just because smashvile has the smallest horizontal area with the least annoying platforms, and if jigg's is starting the match close, that get rid of her greatest challenge: the approach.
Jungle japes is beastly for jiggs, just plain awsome. Again, small main platform, but the water helps her game too.
CP castle siege I'd say, or norfair(if it's legal)
Castle siege is a pain for jiggy puff everywhere but the last tier(hell tier), which ironically is Jigglypuff heaven. You should go for killing jiggs before hell tier, or evading with arrows if you do get to it.
Norfair is No-F-air, cause the platforms are so spaced that it gets really annoying to play on. But the hazards aren't a problem for eithet TL or Jiggs.
I feel like a guest speaker!
Jungle japes is beastly for jiggs, just plain awsome. Again, small main platform, but the water helps her game too.
CP castle siege I'd say, or norfair(if it's legal)
Castle siege is a pain for jiggy puff everywhere but the last tier(hell tier), which ironically is Jigglypuff heaven. You should go for killing jiggs before hell tier, or evading with arrows if you do get to it.
Norfair is No-F-air, cause the platforms are so spaced that it gets really annoying to play on. But the hazards aren't a problem for eithet TL or Jiggs.
I feel like a guest speaker!
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Sorry to butt in again, but Ike can't Fthrow against the blocks on Green Greens. They break when you get tossed into them. And Ike technically has 4 spikes, not 3, but nobody cares about the 4th one. Too hard to land Eruption spike. Just fixing a few things for you.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Quoted from my guide:
This is from a Jigglypuff side.
Toon Link
Stage To Ban: Corneria
Top 2 Stages To Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion
chaos11011
Smash Lord
I knew you would help us illinialex casue we helped you yeah like I said before CP corenia
and ban JJ
and ban JJ
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
And if corneria is banned i are screwed...Any other place TL is good against this annyoing puffball?
chaos11011
Smash Lord
illininalex is FD bad against jiggz
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Its ok. The high ceiling is fairly good but unfortunately, its wide which helps Toon Link. This allows him to projectile spam her fairly well, but its not like an amazing stage because can float in fairly well. Its definitely better to CP than Smashville, because its a lot wider, but I think you could have a better stage.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
After thinking it through (sorry for double post), I would say, get ready for it: Halberd. The stage layout, being relatively flat, shouldn't mess with Toon Link's projectile spamminess that much, especially with arrows. Although bombs are weakened here, both boomerangs and arrows should still do plenty and the low ceiling and wide horizontal blast zones should really help Toon Link.