Tips vs MetaKnight

[brinboy789]

stuff

sorry, i wasnt paying attention in this thread, what moves of MK cant be dealt with?

 

[salaboB]

sorry, i wasnt paying attention in this thread, what moves of MK cant be dealt with?

You quoted me, so I'll answer: I don't know. As far as I know, none of them. Yuna has been implying he has some, so you may want to ask him instead.

 

[Yuna]

This matters because this is a thread for tips on how to deal with Meta Knight. Since it was totally derailed and people were bringing the "Ban MK" discussion here, I've decided to try to bring it back to its point. Thus I listed a series of attacks that people may have difficulty with (ie, that I saw being used effectively in videos of skilled MK players) and requested ways to deal with them -- not just "What do you do when MK begins this" but "How do you prevent him getting into position to use it effectively" (Which I said twice now and you ignored both times and frankly, I'm getting really tired of you asking "What does this matter?" when I've already explained my reasoning.)

The answer is:
Don't let it happen.

I've already said it, thus I didn't say it again. Because, really, there's no magical answer to how to "never let Meta Knight get into position X where he can do Y-move safely". Just be on constantly look-out, play as safely as possible, try not to leave openings etc.

This is the first useful thing you've said in response to my list of attacks.

I was ridiculing the notion that your suggested "tactic" would work at the highest possible level of Smash.

So, which of those options can you do before MK can respond and press his attack or evade the punishment? He's got very low lag on his moves so a lot of those won't result in an effective response -- which actually work?

Any options since glide attack into landing into dashgrab is slowish?

And finally, how self contradictory are you? Watch these quotes:

How is that self-contradictory?
Me: "Not everything Meta has can be dealt with. Saying so would be lying." (paraphrase as you apparently didn't undestand the original phrasing)
You: "Obviously all of his moves can be dealt with in some manner, so why don't we work on ways that can be done that can be used as a general approach for most characters?"
Me: "And that's the point of this thread, really."

But then at the start of this post where you ended by acknowledging that everything MK has must be beatable or he'd just use the unbeatable move to defeat everyone, you said:

No, I never said that everything MK has is beatable. I specifically stated that it would be a lie to say so. Reading comprehension is very important.

Random stuff because I got tired of your misreading.

Here's the quote again:
This thread is not about pointing out that everything Meta has can be "dealt with" as that would be a lie"

Breakdown:
"Not [...] everything Meta has can be 'dealt with'. [...] [Stating so] would be [lying]."

I repeat:
This thread is not about pointing out that everything Meta has can be "dealt with". (not, not, not, NOT!)

And again:
"This thread is not about [stating this], as that would be a lie." (in other words, it is untrue)

I also specifically asked you what "can't be dealt with" meant earlier. I said that not everything he has can be dealt with because depending on your definition, this might or might not be true. If your definition is "On block", then it's true for some things, for example.

 

[streetracr77]

I can't complain about meta kbnight simply because I've never fought a good player than mains him,but anywho, good read for people who can't deal with meta knight

I agree with Jacob, I know he's really cheap, but I've never played a really good metaknight that has completely destroyed me.

 

[salaboB]

No, I never said that everything MK has is beatable. I specifically stated that it would be a lie to say so. Reading comprehension is very important.

You can't even understand what you're saying, I'm done replying to you.

Maybe someone that can actually help with the topic of the thread will start providing some useful advice on how to face skilled MKs.

 

[Yuna]

You can't even understand what you're saying, I'm done replying to you.

Maybe someone that can actually help with the topic of the thread will start providing some useful advice on how to face skilled MKs.

I went into detail explaining how you were wrong and you chose to quote one single sentence and declaring my entire post moot? I never said what you claim I said. You most probably misread it, which I will not hold against you, as long as you can admit to having misread it instead of continuing to accuse me of contradicting myself.

 

[salaboB]

This is an example of ways we can discuss useful methods to deal with MK. The question that lead to it was, "How do I not die to Ness' backthrow?"

The obvious answer is "Don't get grabbed." But that is actually useless advice, everyone already knows that to not die to a grab the best option is to not let them grab you. Marginally more useful, and what I was guilty of, was "Try to trick him into grabbing and punish him for it." But I don't explain how to punish or trick them, so it's still not very useful. Then there's this post:

Strategies:

1) Don't get grabbed. This sounds like dickish advice ("Oh yeah, to be good at smash, just don't get hit!"), but it's really quite pertinent here. Ness's grab range is rather pathetic. Stick to longer-ranged moves when you get to a kill percentage, and sidestep more instead of shielding if he dashes at you. Ness only really has one move that sets up into grab (Fair), and it often fails due to knockback at higher percentages. Just be careful, and pick him off from a range.
2) Learn to DI perfectly. This is not a 100% solution, but it will increase your longevity. If you can DI properly, it will increase the percentage at which he will be able to KO you. Even better than that, it means that he will likely try and fail to KO you at the usual percentage, reducing the power of the backthrow by a little, which can allow you to live even longer. "Perfect" DI entails using both the Joystick and the C-stick, and mashing them perpendicular to his throw. So if he's throwing you to the left (Which is up and to the left), mash them up and to the right. His throw really sends at like a WNW (west northwest) or ENE (east northeast) direction, so "perfect" DI would be NNE for the left throw and NNW for the right. If you do it perfectly, your character should fly to the very corner of the map, which is the furthest point from the stage, and thus you should survive a bit longer
3) Mash grab escape if he gets greedy. If he notices he's not killing you quite as low, he might start pummeling more. If you mash buttons, you may be able to pull of a grab escape before he gets a chance to throw. Just be cautious, as this may cause you to lose your opportunity to DI if he catches on and throws immediately while you are still mashing.
4) Keep his front to the edge. If you try and stay between him and the edge, his back will be facing away from the edge and he will not be able to backthrow you unless he does it across the entire stage, which will drastically increase your longevity. Careful though, as if he knows how to pivot-grab effectively, he can do one of those through you and be facing away from the ledge, thus allowing for a backthrow. Additionally, he could forward roll past you and grab, but that's even more punishable.

This also can lead to discussion, as additional points such as watching his patterns and spot dodging then punishing (Expand on the "bait and punish" suggestion to actually make it useful advice) can also be suggested then.

So, what about the different approaches MK has? If MK is coming at you in short hops, how should you react to most limit his options and give yourself the best chances to punish? What if he's coming at you on the ground? In full jumps? All of these things can be taken apart and analyzed the way Wildfire looked at actual ways to make Ness' grab less effective, and would help move this thread to more useful against skilled MKs than it's been so far (Most of the tips have been one answer to one move, and not anything that really helps you put him in bad situations to make use of his moves)

If nothing can be done about it, if he has certain moves that are truly "unbeatable" and such advice can't be provided, we may as well give up and ban him -- he'll eventually 100:0 anyone he's got one of those against as soon as they're figured out properly and only characters like Snake that can force him to mix things up will stand any sort of chance against him. Since MK doesn't 100:0 anyone, we know all of his moves can be dealt with, somehow.

 

[Nintendevil]

Metaknight's shield is HORRIBLE and easily shield stabbed by something like GW's Nair. Even with a full shield I occasionally find myself getting shield stabbed.

But he's small, so it's not a horrible outcome.

Tornado. The top/center of the Tornado is the weak point.

Not completely. ROB's Gyro only works on it at the base of it.


Everything else is old news or common sense =/

 

[salaboB]

Metaknight's shield is HORRIBLE and easily shield stabbed by something like GW's Nair. Even with a full shield I occasionally find myself getting shield stabbed.

But he's small, so it's not a horrible outcome.

I'm also pretty sure this is a relatively universal problem in Brawl, not just MK's.

 

[Crizthakidd]

DDDs sheild is ginormous

 

[NinjaLink]

The best MK player doesn't go 5 out of 5, he only loses one or two before he figures out the match and wins.

See: M2K (MK) vs. NinjaLink (Diddy), since his initial win I'm pretty sure NinjaLink has failed to duplicate his victories against M2K.

Edit: Besides, it doesn't take proving the matchup charts are wrong about how disadvantaged a match is. You need to find proof that someone can actually have an advantage against MK, or everyone is still better off MK dittoing (Because they'll never run into a disadvantage the way they would with anyone else, even if they had a 50:50 vs. MK)

i never fought m2k in tourney again. But the only MKs i lost to is plank and inui. no one else.

 

[BentoBox]

DDDs sheild is ginormous

All shields decrease at the same rate.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. salabob, you misunderstood what yuna was saying being he was using poor english, just putting that out there.

2. actually, certain characters are more susceptable to being sheild stabbed than others and MK is one of those characters. because he has a round body and he is small he doesnt need much shield to cover his whole body but when the sheild becomes smaller than his body, (which is easier to do because the full shield only makes a thin layer of protection outside his actual body) his whole frame is exposed to attack. unlike characters that are thin, usually the human type characters like zelda and snake. snake can have his shield worn down to the point that the shield is no longer covering his head or legs but is still fully covering his midsection. with the point of MK, I figured this out a few months ago and did some research into it. the fact that his body (and as a result his shield) are so small, makes him more prone to shield stabbing and also shield breaking. I was once in a tourney where i beat an Mk, only because on the second stock, i changed up my style and got very aggressive to the point where I broke his shield and got a full charged tipped lucario forward smash on him at 70% on corneria.
but i soon realised that the concept of being more aggressive than MK is really not a feasible action plan that can be consistenly followed with any character really....
but it is a tactic that, when not foreseen, can do some damage to him.

 

[salaboB]

1. salabob, you misunderstood what yuna was saying being he was using poor english, just putting that out there.

I understand what he was *trying* to say, but what he *actually* said was entirely different. If he wants to insist that he not only reads but responds accurately I'm going to hold him to exactly what he is saying.

So if I say "I disagree; this is what's going on" and he says "That is what the thread is about", even if I'm pretty sure he meant to disagree with me I will hold him to the fact that his words actually agreed with what I had written. That was what I was pointing out.

The proper response was "I meant to type that differently" not "You're wrong you need to learn to read what I write". I was in fact going off exactly what he had written, and nothing more.

Good to know about the shield stabbing -- it can still be taken advantage of vs. Snake though for things like, oh, MK's dtilt. Which is already one of the ways MK can give him problems.

 

[Metro Knight]

Ninjalink teach me to Diddy.

 

[123]

No link to see here...

 

[NinjaLink]

and u kno u can get banned for that right....

 

[da K.I.D.]

I understand what he was *trying* to say, but what he *actually* said was entirely different. If he wants to insist that he not only reads but responds accurately I'm going to hold him to exactly what he is saying.

So if I say "I disagree; this is what's going on" and he says "That is what the thread is about", even if I'm pretty sure he meant to disagree with me I will hold him to the fact that his words actually agreed with what I had written. That was what I was pointing out.

The proper response was "I meant to type that differently" not "You're wrong you need to learn to read what I write". I was in fact going off exactly what he had written, and nothing more.

Good to know about the shield stabbing -- it can still be taken advantage of vs. Snake though for things like, oh, MK's dtilt. Which is already one of the ways MK can give him problems.

and this is why you are in my sig,

yunas just being a douche and generally disagreeable. we are over here, because we want to get better at the game, we are trying to make the game as good as it can possibly be, if that includes Mk than so be it, if it means he has to be banned, same thing. but that is not why this thread is here, personally i am here because as long as he is legal i want to be able to know as much as possible about the matchup and beat as many Mks as possible. people keep saying that the people that want to ban Mk are the scrubs who need to get better, and while thats not true, I am still trying to get better. I would rather not ban Mk because i would like to be able to have everyone playable on near the same level and i would like this to be a competitive fighting game. but as of right now, the numbers are just not where they need to be in order for him to be considered a balenced character.
*lightbulb goes on over KIDs head*
i think i just figured out the definition of the strawman argument...

in the banning thread, many people are saying that Mk is not unbeatable and that all you have to do is get better at the matchup...

so we come here to the get better at the match up thread, asking how to do so, and the only answers we are given are
1. random things that we knew about already(tilt your shield to avoid nado) and dont help because MK is still beating everyone, or
2. get better at the matchup.

so if you tell us to get better, and than you volunteer to help people get better, at which point you say get better, than that shows, to me at least, that the people saying get better dont themselves know any tactics that can beat MK and that he is, in fact too powerful to be in tourneys with other characters..

 

[-Mars-]

and this is why you are in my sig,

yunas just being a douche and generally disagreeable. we are over here, because we want to get better at the game, we are trying to make the game as good as it can possibly be, if that includes Mk than so be it, if it means he has to be banned, same thing. but that is not why this thread is here, personally i am here because as long as he is legal i want to be able to know as much as possible about the matchup and beat as many Mks as possible. people keep saying that the people that want to ban Mk are the scrubs who need to get better, and while thats not true, I am still trying to get better. I would rather not ban Mk because i would like to be able to have everyone playable on near the same level and i would like this to be a competitive fighting game. but as of right now, the numbers are just not where they need to be in order for him to be considered a balenced character.
*lightbulb goes on over KIDs head*
i think i just figured out the definition of the strawman argument...

in the banning thread, many people are saying that Mk is not unbeatable and that all you have to do is get better at the matchup...

so we come here to the get better at the match up thread, asking how to do so, and the only answers we are given are
1. random things that we knew about already(tilt your shield to avoid nado) and dont help because MK is still beating everyone, or
2. get better at the matchup.

so if you tell us to get better, and than you volunteer to help people get better, at which point you say get better, than that shows, to me at least, that the people saying get better dont themselves know any tactics that can beat MK and that he is, in fact too powerful to be in tourneys with other characters..

Quoted for epic truth, the MK mains know how powerful he is and they will do anything to keep him from being banned.........it's as simple as that.

The whole get better at the matchup speech is just an excuse they all like to use.

 

[Crizthakidd]

m2k u can teach me how to get good vs mk all day but one thing thats broken is his ability to gimp , how do u stop urself from getting wall of pained off stage and then shutle looped into oblivioin

 

[salaboB]

m2k u can teach me how to get good vs mk all day but one thing thats broken is his ability to gimp , how do u stop urself from getting wall of pained off stage and then shutle looped into oblivioin

This is what's really lacking: How do you make it hard for MK to approach? Particularily without having to use a character who's extremely campy (Because that leaves you with about 3 of the cast and bores most people to tears). Is it doable? What methods are safe to approach MK with? Are there any?

 

[da K.I.D.]

and without using Mk preferably...

 

[Rain(ame)]

Not to sound like a jerk, but I noticed these things while playing...and I barely even play. As M2K said...he's not necessarily ban worthy. I feel he's super gay, but no more Gay than Fox/Marth/Sheik in Melee.

 

[1048576]

See, that's three characters. Four because Falco also fits. Four viable characters is plenty. One is not. Noone else can match his gayness.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i love how this thread promptly died after me and sal got through with it...

 

[Backward]

We appreciate your efforts, M2K.

Although I'm not quite a fan of yours, I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. Everyone has a subjective line of what 'too good' is. For me and many others alike, MK hasn't passed it. Not quite yet.

 

[brinboy789]

umm

bump?

 

[Justblaze647]

oh ho! M2K finally broke down and created a thread like this...

I don't know whether to call it an act of honor or desperation...

 

[salaboB]

oh ho! M2K finally broke down and created a thread like this...

I don't know whether to call it an act of honor or desperation...

This was created a month ago.

 

[Justblaze647]

This was created a month ago.

So What?

10?

 

[Turbo Ether]

So What?

10?

You're mad late, son.

 

[blacklion]

I'm glad someone agrees that there are characters just as good as MK. Especially since that someone is a highly regarded professional. Thanks, Mew2King. This was a much needed article and we can only hope that the whiners will focus less on complaining, and more on stepping up their game.

 

[memphischains]

Hylian says to play sonic apparently...

Top Tier:
Sonic

 

[Irow]

That's so misleading, that was a list of fast food places. Haha.

 

[memphischains]

LIES AND SLANDER

blue blur ftw wtf

Top Tier:
Sonic

 

[1048576]

I'm glad someone agrees that there are characters just as good as MK. Especially since that someone is a highly regarded professional. Thanks, Mew2King. This was a much needed article and we can only hope that the whiners will focus less on complaining, and more on stepping up their game.

If by stepping up your game, you mean playing MK, then yes, most of us have done that.

 

[M15t3R E]

I'm glad someone agrees that there are characters just as good as MK. Especially since that someone is a highly regarded professional. Thanks, Mew2King. This was a much needed article and we can only hope that the whiners will focus less on complaining, and more on stepping up their game.

Mew2King is a MK main desperately trying to quell the fervor behind the banning of MK.
You know nothing.

 

[MaxfireXSA]

Thanks for Mew2King, for telling us to stop the war of banning Meta Knight.

New Blog Approved

 

[dumba989]

Thanks for the post M2K, was getting sick and tired of people saying that he should be banned, if they read this and actually level up, then the game would be funner and more interesting, also i think that if at all possible, you should attend the tournament this weekend in Princeton, i think it's pretty whack that you can't enter because of certain conditions, but if its about attracting a croud, you should enter because if these people have any backbones in them, even though majority and statistics show that you'll more than likely win, you should enter, the game is about having fun before winning, although winning is what drives competitors to increase their knowledge about the game, just a suggestion dude, if i come out insulting you or anyone else, i apologize

 

[salaboB]

actually level up

salaboB has reached level 8!