Legend of Zelda Timeline Discussion

[theunabletable]

Secondly, and this might be somewhat ironic, but I think the presence of the Master Sword suggests that LttP takes place on the AT if anything. Remember that for LttP to occur, the Master Sword had to have been lost during the Seal War. In WW, the MS is obviously lost, but at the end of TP we see Shad and his group discovering it in the Lost Woods. So the state of the knowledge of the Master Sword's location for LttP is more consistent with WW than TP. It is conceivable that the MS could have been recovered from the sea floor, since WW shows us that its world has divers, submarines, grappling hooks that can reach the bottom of the ocean, etc.

But the MS was lost PRIOR to the Seal War. The sages were looking for it during the Seal War.

I mean if we assume that OoT is the SW and retcons LttPs text, then, yeah, the MS was lost after the SW, but if we assume that OoT is the SW, then Lttp taxes place on the AT anyway lol.

And some people do know the whereabouts of the MS. It's not 100% lost, its general whereabouts are known, there's just no one worthy enough to get it.

 

[Masky]

But the MS was lost PRIOR to the Seal War. The sages were looking for it during the Seal War.

I mean if we assume that OoT is the SW and retcons LttPs text, then, yeah, the MS was lost after the SW, but if we assume that OoT is the SW, then Lttp taxes place on the AT anyway lol.

And some people do know the whereabouts of the MS. It's not 100% lost, its general whereabouts are known, there's just no one worthy enough to get it.

In the timeline I posted, FSA is the Seal War.

 

[GwJ]

What was the seal war?

 

[Masky]

The backstory of LttP elaborated upon in its manual which explains how Ganondorf was trapped in the Sacred Realm.

 

[Spire]

It makes sense. The Master Sword was absent from FSA and Vaati can be seen as one of Ganon's minions that he sacrificed.

 

[Problem2]

maybe it was a rumor, but I once heard that there is unused dialogue left in FSA that further points to the game being considered the Imprison War. Like it was for sure going to be the imprison war, but they mucked it up a little for some sake.

As for the imprison war described in the manual, you should see some of the Japanese translations. Much of the text was imperfectly translated by the NoA such as "the darkness spreading across the land" in the japanese text being "Ganon's army spread across the land" in the NoA text. Most are not big changes, but there are some such as Sages instead of Wisemen and other little details that make OoT sound perfectly like the Seal War/Imprison War.

Imo though, I think they retconned OoT being the war.. or at least that being the entirity of the war. In my time line, the childhood side is OoT, TP, followed by FSA. In all these games, Ganondorf/Ganon was sealed. I could see that entire time period being called the Seal War(s). Also wanted to note that translations seem to conflict whether war is plural or not.

 

[Masky]

maybe it was a rumor, but I once heard that there is unused dialogue left in FSA that further points to the game being considered the Imprison War. Like it was for sure going to be the imprison war, but they mucked it up a little for some sake.

Yes, according to Aonuma, there were last minute plot changes being made to FSA basically up until the very end of development. Miyamoto demanded the changes because he thought the story for FSA was too complicated as it was. This shift is widely known as the "upending of the teatable", and FSA is speculated to have more closely depicted itself as the Seal War before the changes.

Imo though, I think they retconned OoT being the war.. or at least that being the entirity of the war. In my time line, the childhood side is OoT, TP, followed by FSA. In all these games, Ganondorf/Ganon was sealed. I could see that entire time period being called the Seal War(s). Also wanted to note that translations seem to conflict whether war is plural or not.

Ganondorf is never sealed in the Sacred Realm in OoT or TP on the CT. In OoT on the CT, Ganondorf is neither sealed or defeated. In the TP backstory, Ganondorf is sealed in the Twilight Realm. In TP, Ganondorf is defeated. FSA is the only one of those three where Ganondorf is sealed.

 

[Problem2]

Yes, according to Aonuma, there were last minute plot changes being made to FSA basically up until the very end of development. Miyamoto demanded the changes because he thought the story for FSA was too complicated as it was. This shift is widely known as the "upending of the teatable", and FSA is speculated to have more closely depicted itself as the Seal War before the changes.



Ganondorf is never sealed in the Sacred Realm in OoT or TP on the CT. In OoT on the CT, Ganondorf is neither sealed or defeated. In the TP backstory, Ganondorf is sealed in the Twilight Realm. In TP, Ganondorf is defeated. FSA is the only one of those three where Ganondorf is sealed.

he was still sealed twice in the childhood time line and the legend of what happened in OoT can easily carry on through Link telling Zelda. Even if you choose that to be unlikely, then FSA can still be considered the Seal War, though it retcons some things in aLttP.

 

[GwJ]

I was just watching AVGN's Zelda timeline video for nostalgia's sake just now and he brought up a point that confuses me about Minish Cap. He says there are Moblins in the game. He also said that Moblins are created in Ganon's image; No Ganon, no Moblins.

What up? Am I missing something here? The presence of Moblins seem to indicate there's already a Ganon.

 

[Spire]

I was just watching AVGN's Zelda timeline video for nostalgia's sake just now and he brought up a point that confuses me about Minish Cap. He says there are Moblins in the game. He also said that Moblins are created in Ganon's image; No Ganon, no Moblins.

What up? Am I missing something here? The presence of Moblins seem to indicate there's already a Ganon.

Which suggests one of two things:
a) TMC does not come before OoT.
b) The Ganon we see in OoT is a reincarnation.

If the latter, then it's safe to assume that LoZ and ALttP Ganon is also a reincarnation.

 

[GwJ]

So there could be more than two Ganon's? Or are you just saying that there's a possibility that OoT's Ganon gets reintroduced in a prequal to it? Could moblins in SS indicate Ganon gets introduced then?

 

[Spire]

Definitely more than two Ganons. FSA provides a different backstory as well.

 

[GwJ]

So we know of two likely origin games: OoT and FSA. Do you think it's possible that FSA's Ganon isn't ALttP's Ganon?

 

[Spire]

So we know of two likely origin games: OoT and FSA. Do you think it's possible that FSA's Ganon isn't ALttP's Ganon?

I think it's possible, but I think FSA's Ganon is most likely ALttP's. It seems as if TMC, FS, and FSA were all designed to be predecessors to ALttP rather than OoT. Remember though that TMC came last, despite being a prequel to FS and FSA so basically it boils down to, "does TMC build up into OoT or ALttP better?"

Considering that TMC chronicles the "Hylian Age" which is mentioned in ALttP and WW (Grandma speaking of the Hero's Shield being from the age of Hylians), it can be determined that it definitely takes place pre-OoT. Furthermore, Lon Lon Ranch is present and Hyrule Market has not developed fully into a town, rather being a quaint marketplace in a field. Seeing as how SS most likely predates TMC as well, the "hat theory" circulating around TMC is indefinitely nil.

FS is the most confusing game to place imo. Is it its own story? Or is it a direct prequel to FSA? It's barely a standalone game at all with its story existing wholly in the booklet rather than programmed context. Now the same cannot be said about LoZ, AoL, and ALttP because those games existed in an age where story was hard to tell within the confines of programming. Those games are fine examples of why it was necessary (and smart) to add a lengthened story in the booklet.

 

[etecoon]

it's possible just as there are nearly infinite possibilities for the series going forward. remember that they have a habit of just randomly changing things and inserting a game in a time period where it makes no sense, any timeline is tentative and only "works" for the time it was made in

edit: couldn't four swords series take place on the child timeline? I thought the hylians still existed and that the end of the hylian age had something to do with the flood on the AT. as for its reference in LTTP, that's been retconned so many times by now I take any details from its backstory with a grain of salt, they could all be changed. this also makes most sense to me with FSA being the origin story of LTTP ganon because the zora still exist in LTTP where they die out/become the rito on the AT, TP seems to hint at a connection with LTTP with the temple of time and master sword location, and IIRC I remember seeing engravings on the walls in the temple of time in TP that looked very much like the image of the seven sages shown in LTTP...

 

[Spire]

ALttP's backstory is basically the culmination of nearly every other game now. It is only important on the vagueist of levels. The story of ALttP itself is all that is truly relevant to the timeline. OoT changed ALttP's backstory, then FSA changed it again.

I think that the backstory is more or less a quasi-hybrid of both OoT and FSA, if not more games in the series. With that in mind, let's list the important aspects found in-game that tie to other entries in the series:

• Link
• Princess Zelda
• Ganon
• The Triforce
• The Master Sword
• The Trident
• The Pedestal of Time deep within the Lost Woods
• "Old Wise Men" aka Sages
• Seven Maidens
• Dark World
• Kakariko Village with a nearby sanctuary and graveyard at the base of Death Mountain
• Lake Hylia
• Desert of Mystery aka Gerudo Desert
• Zora's Lake (Zora's Domain/Fountain)
• Zora's Waterfall (Beginning of Zora's River)

It's pretty apparent that ALttP takes place in the same Hyrule as seen in OoT and TP. By that accord, ALttP most definitely takes place in the CT.

 

[etecoon]

LTTP's backstory is pretty messed up by now but I also find it interesting that it itself refers to those events as being obscured by time, just as in an actual legend, it can't be taken as pure historical fact. just like the illiad depicts the trojan war, but with plenty of mythology mixed in and we don't know that much about what really happened now(kind of goes back to your goddess codex idea when I compare it to that)

anyway, that all again makes you have to wonder how many ganons there really are. if the four swords series really is pre-OoT and SS before that, then that either means that FSA's ganon is not LTTP's...or that at some point two ganons exist simultaneously, prior to the timeline split even...

 

[Masky]

I was just watching AVGN's Zelda timeline video for nostalgia's sake just now and he brought up a point that confuses me about Minish Cap. He says there are Moblins in the game. He also said that Moblins are created in Ganon's image; No Ganon, no Moblins.

What up? Am I missing something here? The presence of Moblins seem to indicate there's already a Ganon.

Since when are Moblins necessarily created by Ganondorf? I don't remember the games ever stating that.

it's possible just as there are nearly infinite possibilities for the series going forward. remember that they have a habit of just randomly changing things and inserting a game in a time period where it makes no sense, any timeline is tentative and only "works" for the time it was made in

I strongly disagree. The creators have never gone back on what they've said, at least as far as I know.

It's pretty apparent that ALttP takes place in the same Hyrule as seen in OoT and TP. By that accord, ALttP most definitely takes place in the CT.

Have you heard of the "predestined future" theory? Basically, it uses the ideas of prophecy and destiny shown in OoT (which we are shown are real in the world of Hyrule through Zelda's and Link's premonitions, prophecy of the Hero of Time, etc) to create another "split" after Zelda sent Link back in time at the end of OoT. By this theory, LttP is the "predestined future" that was prophesized/destined to occur if Link wasn't sent back in time by Zelda, and WW is the result of the prophecy being broken.

It's one way some people try to resolve the conflict between LttP and WW, since they both seem to take place after the AT ending of OoT (if you see OoT as the SW).

 

[GwJ]

So I'm playing TP and I have a question.

Midna's explaining the Twili's history to me and she said that the Twilight Realm is different than the sacred realm. But what about the whole Ganon-sealing deal with OoT into TP then LttP? Did Ganon swap realms or something?

 

[Masky]

So I'm playing TP and I have a question.

Midna's explaining the Twili's history to me and she said that the Twilight Realm is different than the sacred realm. But what about the whole Ganon-sealing deal with OoT into TP then LttP? Did Ganon swap realms or something?

Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm in the adult timeline (shown in OoT)
Ganon was sealed in the Twilight Realm in the child timeline (shown in TP)
At the end of TP, Ganon is killed by Link
Before the start of LttP, Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm
At the end of LttP, Ganondorf is killed by Link

 

[GwJ]

Didn't the Ganon never get sealed in the AT? (Wind waker)

 

[Masky]

Ganondorf was sealed by the sages in the Sacred Realm (aka Dark Realm) in the AT, as shown at the end of Ocarina of Time after you beat him.

He escaped his seal somehow during the backstory to The Wind Waker. This is explained in TWW's intro, and I believe Ganondorf and the deceased Master Sword sages also comment on it.

 

[GwJ]

Then how'd he end up in the twilight realm in the CT?

Confused.

 

[SmasherLink]

I think the Timeline goes like this
SS
OoT
MM
ALttP
Zelda
Zelda 2/OoS/OoA
WW/TP
ST/PH

 

[GwJ]

Ok, fantastic. It's wrong.

Could you explain why you think it's right? Specifically TP, OoX grouping with LoZ2, and the lack of split timeline?

 

[SmasherLink]

It is like this:
Skyward Sword
to
Ocarina of Time
to
Zelda 1
to
Majora's Mask/ Wind Waker
(Child Timeline) (Adult Time)
to
A Link to the Past/Phantom Hourglass
to
Zelda 2:AoL
to
Twilight Princess
to
Spirit Tracks
to
Dawn of Heroes (formerly Zelda 2000 Tech Demo)

 

[Masky]

Then how'd he end up in the twilight realm in the CT?

Confused.

Recall that Ganondorf was never sealed in the Sacred Realm in the CT during OoT, he was only defeated by the Hero of Time and sealed during the AT.

Twilight Princess explains in a cutscene how/why Ganondorf was sealed in the Twilight Realm before the events of TP. Basically, the Sages were going to execute Ganondorf, but the execution failed and they were forced to seal him in the Twilight Realm as a last resort.

Eiji Aonuma (one of the Zelda creators) explains in an interview that the reason that Ganondorf was to be executed before TP was that after being sent back in time at the end of OoT by Zelda, the Hero of Time as a child informed Zelda and the King of Hyrule of Ganondorf's true intentions.

 

[GwJ]

Oh ok, now I get it.

SmasherLink - I said explain, not repost.

 

[Jonas]

SmasherLink always writes the most incoherent and nonsensical posts. It's like he's deliberately being wrong all the time. Don't expect reason from him lol

Eiji Aonuma (one of the Zelda creators) explains in an interview that the reason that Ganondorf was to be executed before TP was that after being sent back in time at the end of OoT by Zelda, the Hero of Time as a child informed Zelda and the King of Hyrule of Ganondorf's true intentions.

This doesn't make any sense because a prepubescent Link wouldn't have any credibility at all. The King should have no reason to believe him more than he believed Zelda, who already suspected Ganon.

 

[Masky]

This doesn't make any sense because a prepubescent Link wouldn't have any credibility at all. The King should have no reason to believe him more than he believed Zelda, who already suspected Ganon.

Don't forget that Link had the Triforce of Courage in the final scene, which would give him massive credibility.

 

[Jonas]

Well there you go. That's actually a really good point

 

[GwJ]

So, I made a new timeline. Let me know if it has any glaring inconsistencies.

.................../ WW/PH - ST - FS/FSA - aLttP - LA
SS - MC - OoT
...................\ MM - TP - LoZ - AoL - OoX

 

[lanky_gunner]

I heard somewhere a theory that Oracle of Ages and Seasons were the latest in the series, but they were set at the same time in both of the timelines, and due to the events of it, the timeline was set into one again.

Now granted this was a theory, but the reason why I liked it and it stuck with me was because after you beat both games, you could "connect" the games together and defeat Ganon's form. The whole connection with the two games is a little vague really, but I still think it's an interesting theory.

But as far as the timeline goes, I think you have it set up pretty well, although I always figured LoZ and AoL were set in the same timeline as ALttP. FS/FSA was another tricky one too. It's difficult to place that one, but I believe, due to the events shown with the Four Sword, that in actuality it takes place after Minish Cap and feature the same Link.

So I will modify it to fit where I think things go.

................................./ WW/PH - ST - aLttP - LA - LoZ - AoL - OoA
SS - MC -FS/FSA - OoT
.................................\ MM - TP - ...................................... OoS

I guess this means the child timeline is pretty empty, so maybe LoZ and AoL belong there, but because of interviews saying ALttP was set before LoZ, I gotta make it so...

 

[GwJ]

It's safe to assume OoS and OoA happen on the same timeline since the second one (I forget which it is) references the previous one and the fact that they link together to finish the story.

I need to move MC - FS/FSA out from before OoT too.

.............../ WW/PH - ST - MC - FS/FSA - aLttP/LA - LoZ/AoL
SS - OoT
...............\ MM - TP - OoX

Oh yeah, Debbie (supposed SS villain) can't be Vaati, just for the record. If Debbi was Vaati, it'd have to take place along with Minish cap and the four swords games and we know for a fact that MC and FS/FSA DON'T go before OoT.

 

[Masky]

So, I made a new timeline. Let me know if it has any glaring inconsistencies.

.................../ WW/PH - ST - FS/FSA - aLttP - LA
SS - MC - OoT
...................\ MM - TP - LoZ - AoL - OoX

Yeah... remember that time when the master sword sunk to the bottom of the ocean and was lost forever in WW but then reappeared somehow in LttP... good times brah

 

[t3h Icy]

Umm, I'm pretty sure the timeline goes in the order the games were released? How could they make a game in the past unless they have a time machine?

 

[ZIO]

Cannot tell if serious.

 

[Masky]

Umm, I'm pretty sure the timeline goes in the order the games were released? How could they make a game in the past unless they have a time machine?

they have a time machine... the Ocarina of Time

 

[GwJ]

Yeah... remember that time when the master sword sunk to the bottom of the ocean and was lost forever in WW but then reappeared somehow in LttP... good times brah

All that implies is that it was retrieved somehow between the games.

 

[lanky_gunner]

It's safe to assume OoS and OoA happen on the same timeline since the second one (I forget which it is) references the previous one and the fact that they link together to finish the story.

Merely a theory I thought was interesting.

I need to move MC - FS/FSA out from before OoT too.

.............../ WW/PH - ST - MC - FS/FSA - aLttP/LA - LoZ/AoL
SS - OoT
...............\ MM - TP - OoX

Oh yeah, Debbie (supposed SS villain) can't be Vaati, just for the record. If Debbi was Vaati, it'd have to take place along with Minish cap and the four swords games and we know for a fact that MC and FS/FSA DON'T go before OoT.

Eiji Aonuma has stated, after the release of Four Swords, that the story came before Ocarina of Time. Therefore, the Four Swords arc comes before OoT, with Minish Cap being the first in the arc, due to some of the origin stories with Link, such as his hat and the unknown hero explained in the intro movie claiming no title Link has obtained such as the Hero of Time, Winds, etc, although Skyward Sword may change all of this when it comes out.

If anything, we should also add the actual legend of Zelda, the very first, the one put to sleep told of in Zelda II. Technically her story is the first, for every Princess born after her is named Zelda.