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Time Travelers - Town wins! Time travel mechanics rarely used!

Kawaii Kangaroo

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DG is not easy to read. I saw an avenue that might have led to a contradiction, so I took it. 2328 has the full explanation. Why is it so wrong to question a town read? Town on Reyth stood out quite strongly to me, coming from him.
Ok good to see you did have a reason/follow up then. I just saw it as odd that you'd question his town read for no particular reason, but I see you had one.


See 2381.
Debunked.


I have no clue what you're talking about. I never thought that taking Ran's reaction to the fake claim as a scum reaction is invalid. And "bad questions" was the ORIGINAL reason for my suspicions on him. This paragraph makes no sense.
No that's what I'm saying. Taking Ran's reaction to the fake claim as a scum reaction is invalid. It's kind of the point I'm making.

I'm saying essentially that the ONLY reasoning you have for ran scum is his bad questions. Does that make sense?


1385, 1440, 1445 seem to suggest that it is definitely not nonsense. Yes, I actually do believe that now. Trying to make them look bad is not my motivation. My motivation is to catch scum -_-
Asking people if they want to lynch people they think are town is a bit of a loaded question. It makes it look like VG wanted to lynch Ran if we had a cop clear on him, when what they said they meant was that they are willing to lynch Ran irrespective of his alignment. I relate this to people saying they want to lynch PSDL irrespective of their alignment. They are fine lynching Ran because he has claimed a role that could potentially devastate town. To me you seemed to intentionally misrepresent what they were saying and try to hold it against them.

@Side note at Reyth: Vg didn't actually say "I think Ran's town and we should lynch him because of this!" Wtf you smoking son :cool:

DG has made it quite clear he has a town on Ran because his role is too strong to be scum. No need to question him.
Yet you seem to be in complete disagreement with DG's stance. Why are you not questioning the people who have your #1 scum read as town, but questioning the people who possibly want to lynch Ran (vg/reyth iirc) over technicalities? Your push is in the wrong place. The point I'm making on this is that you're not really pushing your agenda of getting scum Ran lynched, you're instead calling out vg on a misunderstanding?

I wanted to make it clear that Ran's ability was not to be used without town agreement. I wanted to avoid the situation where he uses it, and when we all jump on him the next day, he tries to wiggle out and defend it as a pro-town action, saying he was sure they both were scum. With his response to that question, he has no wiggle room.

I phrased it as a question because of my interaction with vg.jpg earlier. 1445 and 1478 suggest that he doesn't trust Ran to follow town direction in a scenario like that, so I asked a question to find out.
Fair enough, imo thought it wasn't necessary to go to this extent. After revealing his role, Ran should already of understood this quite clearly though, thus why I think your question was unnecessary.

Thanks for providing reasoning. I don't think it's shallow or misrepresenting.
Explained elsewhere.
 

July

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It's probably July, but I think it'd be silly to lynch the claimed masons on D1. vg.jpg would come after.
Can you explain why you think it would be silly to lynch the claimed masons on D1? Has that been the only thing stopping you from pushing a scum read on me lately?

Kay I'm back x.x

Do you guys realize you are clearing Ran by trying to meta Overswarm as a mod? Do I even need to say how bad of an idea that is? I've seen town-aligned miller mafia-NK-immune able-to-force-one-person-to-vote-a-certain-way the next day from him. As someone else brought up earlier, maybe Ran isn't telling us the whole story. Maybe he has restrictions as to when he can use it, or who can be his targets. Maybe once he uses it the entire scum team becomes mafia goons. We don't know. Moreover, just because it's easily provable doesn't mean we need to believe it. What if he as scum says he's going to restrict the lynch pool to Townie A and Townie B, claims he was roleblocked, and then uses that fact to try to push a lynch on A or B? Are we still going to say he doesn't have the balls to fakeclaim that?
I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I have had a strong town read on Ran ever since he decided to push me early Day 1 and pressure me with all those questions. That shows Ran trying really hard to gain a read on me, and while you are right that the interactions were weird because they were forced I didn't find it scummy. Ran's play has also been completely within character, his style of scumhunting, his back and forths with Reyth, the reaction to Zen's gambit, none of it struck me as OoC for Ran and most importantly, when he reacted he kept pushing that he wanted Zen dead for the fake guilty, not that he wanted to disprove the fake guilty which isn't indiciative of scum motivation. My read on Ran is reinforced by his role but by no means dependent on it.

HI JULY

IF I TYPE MY POSTS IN CAPS, WILL YOU ACTUALLY READ THEM?

vvv
I am reading, just realize there are a lot of posts to wade through and the things that stand out to me the most are not always the most recent. The numerous times you said that you expected our reads to line up more because of mafia early on stood out to me, so I do apologize for thinking that had more of a role in your read than it did. However, I don't remember much suspicion from you between you comments on my playstyle being different and this post below, but I will address this independent of earlier reads:


Ran is my top pick atm. Asks pointless questions (what PLSD thought of Zen, when neither had even read the game), reacts very poorly (seems fake) to the daycop gambit, including a claim whose timing suggests it's a safe claim and a call for a call for a Zen claim. His role is provable, but nothing guarantees that it is not scum. Seems to be ignoring my question about the use of his night action too. Wonder if he'll answer it now.

Kk so looking back I was actually wrong, I actually find your case on Ran to be one of the least convincing. Asking pointless questions is definitely not the case, for Ran that is scumhunting and I agree with SK's early assessment that the questions may seem strange but at least he follows up on them. I also don't agree that he reacted poorly to the daycop gambit, looking at his motivation he pushed for Zen to be lynched for the fake guilty because he thought he was scum, I have no reason to doubt that he believed that and valued Zen's lynch over self-preservation. Role speculation leans town, and while you may disagree with his choices he clearly thinks the people he would have been narrowing the lynch pool into were scum and it was to help town. Why would he even admit who he was going to put up for the lynch if it wasn't genuine?

KK is probs my next pick. He's been challenging everyone to show why he is scum, claiming that nobody has done so, when in reality he is just dismissing every point against him as stupid. 1647, 1649 is a prime example - he just calls every point BS and calls people stupid and flat out wrong. His case on me is full of misrepresentation and reaching (1414 - in talking about Ryker he quotes me but leaves out literally the most important word in the quote and attacks his strawman instead). He calls me out for shallow reads (one of the main pillars of his case), based on who agrees with me, and then when asked about his reasoning on July, he gives in 1629 that he agrees with what she has to say and that he sees town intent, which no deeper than the reasoning for my reads.

The bolded part is absolutely true, there was no legit case on KK and it was frustrating to watch people reach for a case on him, just like this case was reaching. His #1414 and subsequent posts building his case on you are him looking at your intentions and sincerity, and i know even from the beginning KK had questions about your sincerity that came through even more when you listed your full reads and the reasoning was weak and the lines between null and scum seemed arbitrary. His view on me should make sense in retrospect, but at the time it wasn't obvious.

July is next scum pick. It felt very off that she brought up the time travel suggestion as a way of dealing with Ran. Just felt like wild speculation and I'm not sure what to make of it. More importantly, she has been on DG hard this whole game. Nothing wrong with staying hard on your scumpick, but I feel that she is using it as an excuse to avoid providing stances on other players. She mentions that she thinks I'm town in 565, and I don't get mentioned again until I jump to a top three scum pick in 1132, where she is directly asked for her reads. She says it's because I haven't been "digging in and providing content", the only questions I got from her were requests for clarification. I felt absolutely no pressure from July. Her other pick here is PLSD, who was an easy pick to list.

The bolded line is wrong, and I put my reads out there as best I could and in fact I remember listing a bunch of reads at the request of Ran. While I was pushing hard on my scum read, I was also scumhunting. I also post infrequently, so from 565 I had to take in a lot of information, and I remember asking you multiple times about part of your post that bothered me and made me reread you and find your posts underwhelming. If you felt no pressure from me then that is my fault, but my read from you built through discontent at you present play and then retrospection on your play.
I still think that even your strong reads were based on weak reasoning, especially KK for whom you built your read on them largely around how they interacted with you and your perception of their read on you. The Ran case was a popular case but like I said, you took it all at face value: digging into his intentions and his motivation behind his actions reveals a whole different story. And you and I, well we haven't seen eye to eye all game, I understand your case on me to an extent, but I don't understand letting up on me just because I'm in a masonry.

T-Block, if it is not you lynched toDay, who would you prefer of the following option: SK, DeGrey, Zen, PLSD.

I'm not willing to lynch Ran, nor .jpg.

I believe SK's claim, but I have a stronger town read on .jpg than SK. .Jpg's #2390, #2392 and #2393 point out a lot of inconsistencies within SK that I don't like.

SK, who are your top three scum picks? What wagons would you support toDay?
 

SoupaKatamari

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July said:
SK, DeGrey, Zen, PLSD.
No, stop yourself right here.

SK = Claimed something

DeGrey = Has connections with Asdioh via the flavor ****

Zen = did a pro-town motive action and has been playing town

PLSD = un-exisistant and we get nothing from this flip

are you not considering what is best, or what you want? you're so damn convinced on T-block, but all of his actions make sense, you're going into tunnel mode july.
 

July

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No, stop yourself right here.

SK = Claimed something

DeGrey = Has connections with Asdioh via the flavor ****

Zen = did a pro-town motive action and has been playing town

PLSD = un-exisistant and we get nothing from this flip

are you not considering what is best, or what you want? you're so damn convinced on T-block, but all of his actions make sense, you're going into tunnel mode july.
You don't even know my intention in asking this question, now do you SK?

I know who his top 3 scum picks are, he JUST listed them as Ran, me, and then .jpg.

Swiss, Reyth, KK, and Nich objectively do not seem like realistic lynches toDay so I'm not going to bother asking him about those.

SK, DeGrey, Zen, and PLSD are the most realistic lynch options for toDay. DeGrey is probably not realistic, and I'm not thinking Nabe is either but he can be added to the list of options anyways since I've seen his name thrown out a couple places toDay.

I want to know his thoughts on these ^^^ the other possible wagons, which one he thinks is most legit outside of his scum reads.

Do I agree with all of those lynches as option for toDay? No, I would prefer not to lynch SK or Zen. But I want his opinion on the options that I don't already know his opinion on (Ran, .jpg, me) and are still possibilities for toDay.

Personally, I am considering what is best for town. Ran is town, I will fight anyone on that. I like .jpg's play and I think he is town. I am not convinced of a T-Block lynch or that T-Block is scum, but I am still suspicious of him and I also trust KK's read on him. Only T-Block and KK can convince me whether or not T-Block is the best lynch for toDay.

But I am stubborn, I will give you that :p
 

Kawaii Kangaroo

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it's like almost 2am i'll get to more of this tomorrow

^bt1w o hai Nabe :awesome: good to see ewe conveniently pop in after all the action :chuckle:

@specifically X1: shamwowSLAP. how did you come to the conclusion that wii've now lied about our abilities? If this is true wii wouldn't be able to confirm them. Wii've confirmed 1/3, wii can quite easily confirm the other 2 to prove wii aren't lying.

also @Nabe: all our abilities are twilight abilities. also there's a post I made under my name and I only have 2 posts in the game. i'd link it but im using a computer from the 50s. Could you respond to it and tell if you still don't agree with the analysis I made on soup/yourself involving t-block (as this appears to be the bulk of your read)?

Mininote: rewinding (reversing/redoing/whatever) the Day has been shown to do exactly what wii've described with the song of time:1xspeed command, as proven by the mod. There's nothing iffy about something mod-proven.

I'm going to talk to Soup about t-block because I disagree with this read atm. i'm going to be brave and give this thread a good reread as well! Grey needs looking into. Soup's getting on skype tommo aren't you soup so wii can discuss things then

@mod: how are you resolving actions this game?
>vg.jpg wagon

you guys are ****ing stupid with 4 votes

>any votes on obvtown asdioh

you guys are ****ing stupid

kata i love you again man but what happened!?

i guess i still gotta read some more.

sorry OS!
>remember talking about t-block scum

>see t-block votes

:yeahboi:

uhh..i'm gonna bet that my re-read won't give me anything except back and forth banter and i'm gonna waste my time reading it all and most of my post-v/la reads will probably stay the same?
SoupaKat your heads seem to disagree. @Soup specifically, you had TBlock as scum Asdioh as town a little while back as I've quoted, but then you switched these reads completely. What did Kat say to convince you? Or did you convince yourself! Or do I have it wrong (impossible!! :embarrass:) Tell tell tell :chuckle:

Btw wii may have a suitable solution to all our problems!!! :chuckle: It'll have to wait though ;) First tell us about this! :bee: I want to know who thinks what and why :cool:
 

SoupaKatamari

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i'm at work - me soup spoke on skype last night. we both agreed there was soemthing t-block said in response to zen that made us think town. soup can elaborate onthis in more detail but really this is the explanation at its bluntest. hydra inconsistencies come naturally to a hydra as do hydra agreements - look at chuckie in everything.

if you're online vanz... stay online. wii can discuss this solution of yours in realtime and you can probe my mind with your australian ways :gri:
 

Kawaii Kangaroo

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I'm heeeerreeee.

My plan? You wanna know it huh? It's thisssss

Unvote Vote Nabe

I'm sure this is going to be like christmas for Nich :chuckle:

Wagon switch gooooooo
 

Kawaii Kangaroo

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Also why do you think the Rangaroo is scum btw? July is very convinced he's town. He asks lots of questions but apparently he does this when he's town two. I'd just like to hear what you think because while I'm personally not 100% either way on him, I don't see why he's so scummy. T-Block's case on him is full of air to us.
 

SoupaKatamari

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sorry at work.Essentially it's this for me:
not ordered

Us / You / July / Zen / Nich / T-Block / Reyth / Swiss
[Ranmaru]
Nabe / Jpeg / Degrey / Sex Dance

^soup will explain ran as he seems more decisive. he didn't go into specifics on our skype chat. ran is so-so with me atm because it feels like he's floating around wagons somewhat nonchalantly. I need to look into him in more detail.

What did you think of the degrey/jpeg exchange concerning the breadcrumb btw?
 

Kawaii Kangaroo

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I thought both sides were pretty ok in the actual argument, and I don't see anything that scummy. I don't think DeGrey is indy at all tbh. The big issue for us is why Vg were so concerned about the info DeGrey revealed. Concerned enough that they would go to the lengths to leave a fake bread crumb or whatever. When I saw DeGreys info, I didn't really care that much, but it seems Vg thought it was of high importance. Is their play a big facade for something? Is their weird outburst about indys a secret way of telling us all that they are the man hunting terminator that will stop at nothing to destroy its target? Who knows! This is all speculation really :/
 

Overswarm

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Vote count:

T-block - Ranmaru, July,
Nich - Nabe, Reyth, Zen,
Nabe - Nicholas1024, Kawaii Kangaroo, SoupaKatamari,
Ranmaru - T-block, Videogames.jpg,

Not voting: Swiss, Prehistoric Laundry Sex Dance, Degrey,

Deadline is set for Tuesday, August 9th, at 3:00 p.m. EST
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
 

#HBC | Nabe

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You also jumped to his defense after his role claim saying it all fit into place, yet you've been quick to question the legitimacy of SK's role which I find quite odd. Degrey's role is unprovable, its all based on "mod-confirmed" information. Yet you don't seem to see a chance of this as a fake/safe claim. SK's role on the other hand is provable, and whether or not the command makes sense, the command was accepted by the mod and did what SK said it would do, and the name of the ability is specific and lines up with SK's char claim.
SK's claim sets me on edge, Grey's doesn't. A couple points of interest:

- I didn't defend Grey at all. My post was probably 100 posts later and it was a catchup post. Also, I don't recall anyone being terribly suspicious of Grey at the time, and certainly not pushing votes on him, so there wasn't anything to defend from, imo.
- Grey's claim could be fake. But it hits a lot of good notes, which is all I had to say about it. It's more believable than SK's on the face, although they're two very different situations. SK's role is partially cleared by OS -- that said, there are still elements of their play I can't reconcile, and their having that role doesn't make me think 'town'.

You've also questioned me about DeGrey's post about being happy with where he is in this game (or something along those lines, I don't have the time or patience to find the exact quote), and when I gave you my interpretation of it you rejected it and said his statement made perfect sense with his play.
This is untrue. Go back and reread; I didn't reject your interpretation, I outlined an alternate one because your response said to me that you weren't looking from any other perspectives. And I recall that you acknowledged that the potential was there, and agreed that you might have to take a step back and reevaluate. That's an attitude I don't see a trace of now (since you're accusing me of out-and-out opposing your POV which isn't the case) which suggests an inconsistency between words and motive.

Those are the ones I remember, not going to ISO you just for this question, and it was pertinent to the fact that you claimed that you weren't going to attempt to read DeGrey so how can you so matter of factly say these interpretations are wrong. You cleared that up by saying you have taken that read into your own hands for a while now, which I obviously wasn't aware of.
I wouldn't expect you to ISO, since you were confident enough to say it out of hand which implies that you have your reasoning well-ordered. It's a fairly large point to make, and I would expect you to defend it more fervently and correctly in your original response, i.e. by listing multiple events when your accusation implied multiple events. This speaks to what Reyth mentioned earlier about you being less thorough than usual; I thought your original response was slippery.

Having doubts on you again.
 

#HBC | Nabe

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Endorsing 2380 by Reyth. The call of KK reaching is justified.

T-block's actions throughout the game have been largely understandable. I think there's something to be said about a consistent push on Ran without real consideration of other possibilities; I can see why Block would come to the conclusions he does, but he hasn't branched out much from it in recent pages. But, I think that he's just wrong and a bit inactive. I'd see him go if it came to that, but he's low on my radar at present.
 

#HBC | Nabe

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T-block is town, there is scum on this wagon.

the latest theory speculation via jpg/DeGrey makes me actually feel better about DeGrey, but not much, and only because i didn't like Jpg's reaction to it all.

Nabe is null, and i don't understand the Nich hate, unless i'm not reading something he is.

I want to say Ranmaru is scum, but..

Vote: videogames.jpg
Ok SK, at some point if it is necessary to change wagons, who will be your main wagon choice?

Also, what do you think of my theory that your role could balance Ran's role as scum?
Nabe probably.

It's alright but i'm not a man of speculation, i do believe mafia double-voters exist of course, i'd rather focus on the context of what the player has done then play 20 questions with the mod.
From this line of questioning, it's fair to say that your only scumread is VG, correct? Since you call me null in the top post and you vote for VG, and say that I would be your second choice.

T-block wagon smells funny, just like the SK wagon did. In fact, I like the fact that SK was #1 on that wagon, but just unvoted a bit earlier.
Re: 2390, is this in proper perspective? How long has SK's vote been on Block? If it's in proper perspective, this says a lot about SK.


@SK: 2397 is bad. I know you're jokey but come on, you can do better than bolding an entire paragraph and blanketing it under a claim of WIFOM (and you do in 2398 so 2397 was just to be a jerk?)
 

T-block

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Endorsing 2380 by Reyth. The call of KK reaching is justified.

T-block's actions throughout the game have been largely understandable. I think there's something to be said about a consistent push on Ran without real consideration of other possibilities; I can see why Block would come to the conclusions he does, but he hasn't branched out much from it in recent pages. But, I think that he's just wrong and a bit inactive. I'd see him go if it came to that, but he's low on my radar at present.
Nabe, I've been V/LA and just got back yesterday lol. I have two other scumpicks... they just happen to be claimed masons at the moment -_-

What do you mean by "just wrong". You don't think Ran is scum then? Your 2350 says he's one that you would vote at the deadline. Why is that?

Can you elaborate on your SK scum read in 2350 as well? Based on the posts before 2350, not after, as I'm seeing in your ninja.
 

#HBC | Nabe

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@KK/T-block, something funky is going on here. Here's KK's original point to T-block, an explanation of why Ran's role can't be a scum role.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13084820&postcount=1491

#1491: TB about Ran's role: "Yes, his role is provable, but I don't see why it can't be a scum role."

I'll tell you why TB! Assume Ran didn't make up his role (which is obvious), if it is a scum role it means he can force an entire mislynch on a player with no consequences. A mod wouldn't give scum a "free lynch" like that. There is no way scum could use that incorrectly or have no repercussions. It's like an unrestricted Town Wacher - Broken.
T-block's response (the underlined serves in response to KK). Block says "these are the ways in which Ran's role could be a scum role".
See 2381.
Do you guys realize you are clearing Ran by trying to meta Overswarm as a mod? Do I even need to say how bad of an idea that is? I've seen town-aligned miller mafia-NK-immune able-to-force-one-person-to-vote-a-certain-way the next day from him. As someone else brought up earlier, maybe Ran isn't telling us the whole story. Maybe he has restrictions as to when he can use it, or who can be his targets. Maybe once he uses it the entire scum team becomes mafia goons. We don't know. Moreover, just because it's easily provable doesn't mean we need to believe it. What if he as scum says he's going to restrict the lynch pool to Townie A and Townie B, claims he was roleblocked, and then uses that fact to try to push a lynch on A or B? Are we still going to say he doesn't have the balls to fakeclaim that?
KK's 2400 responds to 2381 on a different tack, talking about how he's not clearing Ran on mod meta alone, and how he thinks Block's Ran case holds no weight. However, his response doesn't address the issue of whether or not Ran's role could be a scum role. Then, he says this in 2401:
However, the debunking (2400) clearly doesn't deal with the possibility of Ran's role being a scum role. So that point remains unanswered.
 

T-block

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I'm sorry but I'm not clearing Ran just on this point at all. Aside from 100% trusting July's read on him, I'm debunking that your case of scum Ran holds no weight.
Good. I just want to make sure that people aren't using just the claim to conclude that Ran is town (looking at you, DG).

1. You can't use his claim as evidence against him. The claim is sound and has no holes in it. If there was a hole in it, we'd be lynching him.
Please point out where I tried to use the claim itself against him.

I'm not arguing that his claim has holes. I'm just saying that just because it's provable DOESN'T MAKE HIM TOWN.

2. The fear of "we don't know if Ran's telling the truth" is not a valid reason to lynch him either.
Agreed. Again, I'm only trying to show that he should not be cleared for his claim.

3. Calling his reaction to Zen's gambit anything other than null is idiotic. You say that he overreacted, which is basically him cussing and using AtE. Can town cus and use AtE as well? Yep. Can town overreact to things? Yep. Than this is a NULL tell. The substance of his reaction is that he was WILLING to die on the premises that scum Zen from his perspective gets lynched upon his own town flip. That is EXACTLY the right move for a townie, sacrifice yourself for a scum lynch. Whether or not Ran is town, he did exactly what a townie should do (ignoring the cussing/Ate stuff that is a null tell). Therefore, it is NOT valid to use Ran's reaction as a reason to lynch him.
It's not the overreaction itself. It's that the overreaction seemed fake. You fail to realize it's not the profanity and the AtE that I take issue with... it's the fact that none of it seemed genuine. More importantly, the timing of certain posts (claims, additional info, etc.) was completely off. I'll elaborate in my next post.

Overall, I have proved that these things can not logically be used as an argument for Ran scum. Your ONLY argument left for Ran scum is that he asks questions (more specifically whatever I quoted you saying above). To me this is incredibly weak reasoning and why I don't like your push on Ran at all.

You never fully explained or brought attention to why you don't like Ran's "questions that he doesn't follow up" or whatever. It's like you tacked this on as additional reasoning to 1. His bad reaction to Zen and 2. that we can't trust his claim.
You haven't proven **** lol. I did fully explain my dislike for his useless questions. I think they are an attempt to fake contribute. Town's motivation for asking questions is to catch scum. What is the motivation behind asking PLSD for his opinion on Zen, when neither player had even read the game? Anyone with any rational ability would be able to predict that PLSD would say he had no opinion, no? I don't see scumhunting motivation in this question... I see a desire to seem townie by asking questions no matter how useful they are.

You also seem to be unable to see that the questions were my ORIGINAL reasoning for suspecting Ran, so I'm not tacking it onto anything -_-
 

#HBC | Nabe

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Can't breathe, but the view is equal to the taste
What do you mean by "just wrong". You don't think Ran is scum then? Your 2350 says he's one that you would vote at the deadline. Why is that?
I can see the actions Ran has taken as coming from Rantown very easily, but I've never seen Ranscum either. His play in this game is not what I'd expect from him, and I don't know that the actions I do identify with Rantown are town so much as null, but they definitely aren't out-and-out scum actions. He's not around much at present, he seems to have fallen off after the Zen claim. I would lynch him at deadline for sure but he's not my scum and like you, low on my radar.

Can you elaborate on your SK scum read in 2350 as well? Based on the posts before 2350, not after, as I'm seeing in your ninja.
I think their slot has been flat throughout the game which shouldn't come from either head, but Soup in particular carried for a large portion of the game and made unmemorable posts (see: RE4 in comparison and any other game in contrast). I haven't felt their slot's presence in this game until when Kata started to post and shortly after claimed. Since then I think that Kata's been just as flat, although more present. I don't understand the motivation behind their reads and I don't think Kata has had a scumhunting presence. I had several problems with the explanation of their claim and still do, which hasn't been acknowledged by SK despite my asking. There's also the early-game encounter I had with Soup which has been hashed pretty thoroughly.
 

Reyth

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Every time Nabe tickles the pixels itt it screams:

TOWN!




The Nabe wagon is the suck.
 

T-block

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I can see the actions Ran has taken as coming from Rantown very easily, but I've never seen Ranscum either. His play in this game is not what I'd expect from him, and I don't know that the actions I do identify with Rantown are town so much as null, but they definitely aren't out-and-out scum actions. He's not around much at present, he seems to have fallen off after the Zen claim. I would lynch him at deadline for sure but he's not my scum and like you, low on my radar.
Let's ignore meta here then, since you've never seen scum Ran. Do you have anything to say about his play in particular? Or is it just because his activity has died down?

Hey Block! What say you about 2427? Or, should KK respond to me first?
I thought 2427 was more for KK to respond to... I agree that KK is not addressing my points properly. They've been trying to incriminate me for things I haven't said for a long time now, so that's nothing new.
 

T-block

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Okay, here's a decent quote summary of Zen's gambit. But you should really go read the whole thing in context... it starts post 1218.

Comments in Lime Green.


I'm high on Endorphins and Futurecopped Ranmaru n1 with guilty.
its a pri cool ability, daycop essentially
Vote: Ranmaru
Bull****.

Doublevote: Zen

DIE MOTHER ****ER DIE.
I'm not kidding lol.
I'm not kidding either.
Also notice how you hadn't even pressured me, your apparent 'guilty'. Why didn't you try to get more info from me?
So then it's a battle to the death :chuckle:
im sure ill find enough when i read
Yes. YOU WILL DIE YOU **** SUCKER. :mad:

I AM CAPTAIN KIRK. DESTROY THIS SCUMBAG.
Watch the timing of the claim here. First of all, there's a fast double vote. Why so fast to reveal part of his role here? Comparisons to the MS game are not valid, as previously stated, because a dayvig is very different from a daycop. More importantly, the post where he claims flavour is entirely unprovoked. Look at how he questions Zen, asking him why he hadn't pressured his guilty before - it looks like he's done with the initial outburst and is ready to approach this rationally. Then after Zen says he'll find stuff when he reads (Zen doesn't even HAVE anything else at this point - why should Ran feel any more threatened by Zen's post here?), Ran claims Kirk. Where was the provocation? WHY did Ran claim Kirk at this point?

No, NO NEED TO READ. THANKS FOR GIVING YOURSELF AWAY SCUM.
lolwut safeclaim

ill gladly die if it means ur death by the vig
y would u think scum would do this xD

ur fuuull of it
is july ur scumbud? she was viewing before u came on
You didn't even full claim when presenting your 'result' on me. And it's lazy.

Im not full of it at all bro.
Nope. I have none. Is tblock your buddy?
y would scum do this Ran, answer the question x3333
YOU TELL ME. HOW WOULD I KNOW?

Here is my thoughts on why you would do this:

1. You haven't done ****. I'm right about JPG, so it would be best to fake claim a guilty on me to save a bud.
ill leave this to the rest of town.

my name, dont forget it

tata

doc on me tonight
No. Of course not. There wouldn't be a doc on you after my town flip
AND DON'T EVEN THINK OF TRYING TO CLAIM INSANITY. Oh boy.
lol y would i save my buddy? i didnt even know people were voting him xD
jpg that is O_O
He would have told you in your qt. I have been voting Jpg.
lol only you? so then y would he need saving?
Saving before a wagon would build on him.

But if not it's obv for saving A buddy who is under the hot seat. So, tell me your thoughts on people with wagons. I WANT THOUGHTS ON EACH PERSON.

I WANT YOUR READS NOW.

I WANT WHY YOU COPPED ME.

WHEN DID U COP ME.
Yes Kawaiii

Ran lol no think of something better

i copped u because i felt u were off from reading wat i did

i copped you yesterday night and didnt get results til today and havent been home all day til a bit ago
Also Zen, one more thing.

Would you be willing to be vigged upon my town flip?
u wont flip town sunn
I will flip town. R u saying you don't want to be vigged on my town flip?

How is my reaction ugly?

I know i am town. I know his fake claim is fake, therefore scum.
And i double voted him. Jeesh.
Zen I want your reads on everyone NOW NOW NOW
if im insane no i dont want to be vigged that would be dumb
NO DON'T GO IF UR INSANE CUZ UR SCUM

caps
y would u doublevote me without seeing if i was real or not hm? HMM?
I never said I was insane xD

instructing vig to kill me is the dumbest thing ever tho not in any circumstance would i say that
I SAW A FAKE GUILTY ON ME. THEREFORE I PUT EVERYTHING I HAVE, ON THE TABLE.

NOW ONE MORE THING GUYS.

I have an ability, called Bold leadership. I can target two people, and those two people would be the ONLY LYNCH the next Day. It is one shot. I was going to pick Nabe and Jpg. Just so you know.
Where does this come from? Why does he feel a need to out his other ability here? What was the provoking factor? This all occurs quickly, very late at night (3:30am on the east coast IIRC) and his mention of Bold Leadership happens before DG appears on the scene. Only Zen and KK were online at this point. Is he feeling pressure that he needed to deal with by adding to his claim when most of town hadn't even had a chance to give input yet?

so u can double vote AND do that?

explain the flavor
Yes the VIG SHALL KILL U. I AM %100 SERIOUS.

DH Dayvigged me and I reacted differently. I was town princess and I gave up after that.

Here this is different. It's possibly a Fake guilty from scum, and I believe it's from scum since Zen hasn't done DOO DOO, AND SO I WANT HIM DEAD.
THere is no flavour. :s

I'm Captain Kirk from Star Trek. :D It is a really fun role. I was going to use it well until SCUM FAKE CLAIMED A GUILTY ON ME. D: <
y not c if i was gambiting or insane?

have u ever seen me do something like this as scum? no. I play to win. id be dead next
day or vig if u were town.
NO. I HAVENT EVER SEEN U AS SCUM. EVER. So I wouldn't know. I feel your play here is off because you have been very lurky. You can DIE DIE DIE IN LAVVVAA.
OH U WILL BE DEAD NEXT. TRUST ME. Trust me.
Unvote

i lied


@Ran: touhou
Now my claim is out. Great. D: <

I'm still keeping my vote on Zen. ALL DAI.

JPG is still scum to me.
Then after learning it's fake, he just says "now my claim is out". I would have expected a more explosive reaction, given his previous posts, no?

It's not fake. You are scum. Not me.

NOW CLAIM MOTHER ****ER. WHAT IS YOUR FULL CLAIM. NOW YOU BROUGHT ME TO CLAIM.
I still really dislike this, although I have a much easier time attributing this post to frustration and anger. Zen had already stated that he lied about being daycop. It was still only Ran, KK, and Zen at this point, and KK had shown a liking for Zen. Why is he pushing a claim, again without town consensus?

See, my first priority isn't to survive, it's to catch scum. now I'm abandoning my SUPER AWESOME ROLE, to get you lynched. Even if I get lynched. That I really really hate you for messing it up for me :c

I just responded to you, scum.
A few posts after and he stresses that his role is "SUPER AWESOME", which does not seem genuine. What's so awesome about it? By this point, DG had already explained that it's pretty anti-town.


The timing of the claim posts is what makes me feel like it's a safe claim.

And let me repeat myself: the fact that his claim is provable does not mean he is town. Saying that his role is too strong to be scum is also not valid, because we don't know the whole story. In SMRPG, Axem Rangers (scum JoaT) had an ability where the target would be told they had been granted one-shot bulletproof, but it was a lie. We would have used it to claim a town role that can grant one-shot BP. Simple as that. Don't make assumptions.
 

T-block

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Ranmaru your reaction is horrendously ugly. Based solely to how you acted to Zen's claim or whether it be a gambit, it's bad.

ZenTown btw. I'll die for this read alone. Throw in July too, I'll defend her too.

Unvote
Vote: Ranmaru


Pile dem votes on boys!
3. Calling his reaction to Zen's gambit anything other than null is idiotic. You say that he overreacted, which is basically him cussing and using AtE. Can town cus and use AtE as well? Yep. Can town overreact to things? Yep. Than this is a NULL tell. The substance of his reaction is that he was WILLING to die on the premises that scum Zen from his perspective gets lynched upon his own town flip. That is EXACTLY the right move for a townie, sacrifice yourself for a scum lynch. Whether or not Ran is town, he did exactly what a townie should do (ignoring the cussing/Ate stuff that is a null tell). Therefore, it is NOT valid to use Ran's reaction as a reason to lynch him.
I guess it was your other head (I hate hydras), but still... you didn't seem to think it was null when it was happening.
 

Nicholas1024

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Alright, I'm really happy to see that the Nabe wagon is finally taking off. (In fact, since I was getting nowhere I was about to refocus and leave Nabe-scum for D2, but now that I can actually get him lynched...) Since a lot of the arguments between me and Nabe approach TLDR status, I'll summarize my case against him.

1: He has no drive to scum hunt. The only scum read he's pushed has been me, and that was made necessary by activity reasons. (I'd like to remind everyone one more time that I was a very safe wagon at this point, the consensus was dumb or scum due to my somewhat shaky early game play.)

2: Everything he's done has been categorized by one word, SAFE. This connects with point 1 somewhat in that he never provides reasoning for his reads if he can avoid it. (You can argue with reasoning, but arguing with a read without reasoning? Not so much.) Take a look at his recent reads list.

MY READS IMPORTANT UPDATE (August 1st 2011, 15:50:07 E.S.T.)

Will be pushing: Nich
If Nich suddenly becomes a clear: VG, SK
Would vote at deadline / dirtbags: PTSD, T-block, Ran
Also: Swiss
Town: Other people
Zen: Zen

Note: formal write-up to follow under order of King Nich Nich (oops, wrong game)
Someone remind me who the possible choices for a lynch today are. Well, besides Nabe there's been consideration of PLSD, T-block, Ran, VG, SK, and me. Take another look at the scum list (Namely, "would vote at deadline" and above). Nabe's pretty set to vote ANY wagon that develops, isn't he?

3: He's straw-manned and avoided my arguments in our recent dispute. I've been after him to provide examples of him giving reads with reasoning all game. He's twisted that request into me supposedly wanting a full read list. He says it's anti-town, yet gives it anyway (in the above quote). I've asked him twice for reasoning behind the video read, and he's ignored me completely. In fact, twice my #2354 (Which is basically what I'm arguing in this point but with more detail and quotes) has been disregarded by him, with him claiming I'm trying to "choke the thread with walls".


If anyone wants more details on any of these points, I'd be happy to oblige. And my challenge to supporters of Nabe-town remains, show some posts of Nabe actually scum hunting.

@T-block
Just wanted to comment, but the case against me (which is only really being pushed by Nabe...) is based in stuff over 2000 posts ago...
 

T-block

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Ok good to see you did have a reason/follow up then. I just saw it as odd that you'd question his town read for no particular reason, but I see you had one.
Cool.

Debunked.
You haven't debunked anything. See 2427, 2428.

No that's what I'm saying. Taking Ran's reaction to the fake claim as a scum reaction is invalid. It's kind of the point I'm making.

I'm saying essentially that the ONLY reasoning you have for ran scum is his bad questions. Does that make sense?
Well you didn't say it very clearly lol. But I understand your point now, and I'll point you again to 2428.

Asking people if they want to lynch people they think are town is a bit of a loaded question. It makes it look like VG wanted to lynch Ran if we had a cop clear on him, when what they said they meant was that they are willing to lynch Ran irrespective of his alignment. I relate this to people saying they want to lynch PSDL irrespective of their alignment. They are fine lynching Ran because he has claimed a role that could potentially devastate town. To me you seemed to intentionally misrepresent what they were saying and try to hold it against them.
It doesn't make it seem like that at all.

The comparison to PLSD is invalid. We are okay with lynching PLSD as there is nothing to suggest he is town. vg.jpg, on the other hand, HAD REASON to believe that Ran was town, but wanted to lynch him anyways. This isn't "he's useless, so let's lynch him and if he flips town, oh well". This is "he's probably town, but let's lynch him anyways".

The following quotes show that vg.jpg had Ran as town:

1440: "If Ran has the ... Bold Whatever role he claimed, then he is most likely town, but the havoc he could cause by misusing his role scares me."

1445: "And I believe him because from the sounds of it, that is a role that will be verified by the mod upon the start of a new Day, so I don't see why he would fakeclaim it."

Yes, I will take issue with someone wanting to lynch a town member, especially with as much content as we have right now.

So, where's the misrepresentation?

Yet you seem to be in complete disagreement with DG's stance. Why are you not questioning the people who have your #1 scum read as town, but questioning the people who possibly want to lynch Ran (vg/reyth iirc) over technicalities? Your push is in the wrong place. The point I'm making on this is that you're not really pushing your agenda of getting scum Ran lynched, you're instead calling out vg on a misunderstanding?
I have been pushing for a Ran lynch -_- Why can't I pursue other things as well? Push other people; get called out for pushing the wrong place. I bet if I didn't, you'd call me out for tunneling Ran, right?

Fair enough, imo thought it wasn't necessary to go to this extent. After revealing his role, Ran should already of understood this quite clearly though, thus why I think your question was unnecessary.
In 1440, vg.jpg says this:

"Now, this might be a different story if Ran would listen to the input of others for who to use his ability on, but he's demonstrated nothing but thickheadedness this game, and I don't trust him with his role. I have NO problem lynching him toDay."

I took issue with the fact that he jumped to this conclusion, and then used it to justify a lynch push, instead of attempting to get town to direct Ran's use of the power. By asking the question, I show that it is unreasonable to jump to this conclusion. Make sense?
 

Reyth

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Ok for the record:

1) .jpg said Ran is prob town AND HE'S A LIABILITY and should be lynched; i.e. policy lynch. I hold it as harmless.

2) As far as Nich's case on Nabe about not scum hunting. There is something Nich needs to realize about Nabe -- he proves he has been scum hunting by the content of his posts; his posts are chock full of scum-hunting-aware gems of knowledge and wisdom. Just because he doesn't fit Nich's model for what scum hunting should be doesn't mean that Nabe hasn't been scum hunting.
 

T-block

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Can you explain why you think it would be silly to lynch the claimed masons on D1? Has that been the only thing stopping you from pushing a scum read on me lately?
Yeah, that's pretty much the reason why I stopped the push on you. Lynching claimed masons on D1 is silly because we don't have night action or flip information... claiming masons as scum is an incredibly risky maneuver, and it would be wrong for me to say I'm confident enough in my D1 read to still go through with the lynch. However, I could see you and KK having the balls to try this, so I'm not going to let this stop me from pushing your lynch in later days, if the evidence points towards it.

I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I have had a strong town read on Ran ever since he decided to push me early Day 1 and pressure me with all those questions. That shows Ran trying really hard to gain a read on me, and while you are right that the interactions were weird because they were forced I didn't find it scummy. Ran's play has also been completely within character, his style of scumhunting, his back and forths with Reyth, the reaction to Zen's gambit, none of it struck me as OoC for Ran and most importantly, when he reacted he kept pushing that he wanted Zen dead for the fake guilty, not that he wanted to disprove the fake guilty which isn't indiciative of scum motivation. My read on Ran is reinforced by his role but by no means dependent on it.
It was mostly to DG, and anyone else who thought the claim should be reason to no longer look at Ran as scum. I knew that you had other reasons for having Ran as town.

I am reading, just realize there are a lot of posts to wade through and the things that stand out to me the most are not always the most recent. The numerous times you said that you expected our reads to line up more because of mafia early on stood out to me, so I do apologize for thinking that had more of a role in your read than it did. However, I don't remember much suspicion from you between you comments on my playstyle being different and this post below, but I will address this independent of earlier reads:
I apologize for the tone of that post. I understand that it's a lot to read through, and that things will be missed, but it's getting frustrating to see you continually bring up points against me that simply aren't true.

I still think that even your strong reads were based on weak reasoning, especially KK for whom you built your read on them largely around how they interacted with you and your perception of their read on you. The Ran case was a popular case but like I said, you took it all at face value: digging into his intentions and his motivation behind his actions reveals a whole different story. And you and I, well we haven't seen eye to eye all game, I understand your case on me to an extent, but I don't understand letting up on me just because I'm in a masonry.
Well... if that's what you think, that's what you think. I think KK's case on me is based on weak reasoning, and others have agreed, but you seem to think it's okay there. Do you actually agree with the reasoning, or is it just because it's coming from someone who you have as confirmed town? And I am looking at the motivation behind Ran's actions, and I am still seeing scum. The masonry point is explained above.

T-Block, if it is not you lynched toDay, who would you prefer of the following option: SK, DeGrey, Zen, PLSD.
PLSD, DG, SK, Zen would be my lynch order out of that pool.

PLSD for obvious reasons.

DG hasn't done much at all lately, and I expected a lot more out of them after that first phase. The conversation about the crumbing with vg.jpg was stupid, and I thought it was a waste of time tbh. Other than that, they've been bouncing around and haven't done much scumhunting, so they're off my town list. I would MUCH rather lynch someone else, but I'm not going to refuse to put my vote on him.

SK is so late in the list mostly because of the claim, and the fact that he's basically confirmed as Link (although now that I think about it, it's not a given that Link is town...). I need to see more from them before I can make a solid conclusion based on their actions.

Zen is cool. He's actually already done quite a bit for town, and I hope he manages to catch up.
 

Nicholas1024

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@Reyth
Alright, since you're so insistent upon Nabe-town, and claim that he's scum hunting, let's see you prove it. Find me some evidence of Nabe pushing a scum-read with some reasoning. I've given this challenge numerous times, and NOBODY has answered it.
 
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