Time Travelers - Town wins! Time travel mechanics rarely used!

[Kawaii Kangaroo]

T-Block stuff

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13079698&postcount=1117

#1117: T-Block takes issue with DeGrey's town read on Reyth, when he himself says he hasn't reached a conclusion on Reyth. Why would a townie take issue with someone else's town read and nothing else? Especially considering he apparently didn't have a read at that stage.

He should be more concerned with Dg's scum reads, which he isn't.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13084820&postcount=1491

#1491: TB about Ran's role: "Yes, his role is provable, but I don't see why it can't be a scum role."

I'll tell you why TB! Assume Ran didn't make up his role (which is obvious), if it is a scum role it means he can force an entire mislynch on a player with no consequences. A mod wouldn't give scum a "free lynch" like that. There is no way scum could use that incorrectly or have no repercussions. It's like an unrestricted Town Wacher - Broken.

Though, I don't like how you changed your vote when provoked like that. Your reasoning is for "bad questions" when you realise that taking Ran's reaction to the fake claim as a scum reaction isn't valid. I've been in ran's situation twice before, and I reacted exactly (albeit, maybe without all the cussing) how he did. You accept that you're going to be lynched and do everything in your power to make sure the person faking a guilty on you gets lynched as well (either after or before).

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13084987&postcount=1498

#1498: TB casting suspicion about why other people do/don't want to lynch Ran. Why are you trying to make Reyth/Vg look bad? Do you actually believe Vg thinks "Ran is town, but okay with lynching him." Nonsense.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13085096&postcount=1506

#1506: TB doesn't question DeGrey about his Ran Town read. Yet he's specifically questioned 4 other people about their ran reads? Why doesn't he questioned the guy who thinks the person he's voting is town?

#1719:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13093557&postcount=1719

T Block basically threatens "Ran, if you use your power tomorrow you get lynched?" Why is this a question? Isn't his point obvious enough that he doesn't need to address it as a threat to Ran? Trying to make more of something, when there really isn't.

http://www.smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13096847

#1761/1762 (page 45): TB's reads scum picks. Shallow and misrepresenting of Ran imo.

 

[vanderzant]

@Nabe: Accept that we're not lynching Nich. He's town. Stop responding to him if you have to. Vote for PSDL/T-Block or do something else.

@Nich: You're tunnelling. Drop Nabe for now ok? Pretend we can't lynch him until tomorrow, and help decide out of T-Block/PSDL/Zen, or whoever you think.

@Asdioh/X1: Think about Ran's role. It doesn't make sense and you know he didn't make it up. Trust us with July on this one.

@DeGrey: Understand and accept that you're going before LYLO, preferably around about a Day 3 lynch. You don't pose any value for town and you're always going to be a question mark. I have too many strong town reads that should go to LYLO before you. Hopefully the game is over and done with before we get there.

@Kat/Soup/Swiss: Read up and let us know where we should go toDay.

@Zen: I'd like to think you're town but I'm not that naive. Also you can't read me . Say something that makes me think you're town :/.

 

[Kawaii Kangaroo]

@Nabe: Accept that we're not lynching Nich. He's town. Stop responding to him if you have to. Vote for PSDL/T-Block or do something else.

@Nich: You're tunnelling. Drop Nabe for now ok? Pretend we can't lynch him until tomorrow, and help decide out of T-Block/PSDL/Zen, or whoever you think.

@Asdioh/X1: Think about Ran's role. It doesn't make sense and you know he didn't make it up. Trust us with July on this one.

@DeGrey: Understand and accept that you're going before LYLO, preferably around about a Day 3 lynch. You don't pose any value for town and you're always going to be a question mark. I have too many strong town reads that should go to LYLO before you. Hopefully the game is over and done with before we get there.

@Kat/Soup/Swiss: Read up and let us know where we should go toDay.

@Zen: I'd like to think you're town but I'm not that naive. Also you can't read me . Say something that makes me think you're town :/.

My bad, don't modkill me

 

[Swiss]

Apologies for the activity.

Will read up tonight, would have yesterday but it took me two and a half ****ing hours to get hime from work and I wasn't in the mood for the no doubt mind numbingly dumb posts I was about to read.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

@DeGrey: Understand and accept that you're going before LYLO, preferably around about a Day 3 lynch. You don't pose any value for town and you're always going to be a question mark. I have too many strong town reads that should go to LYLO before you. Hopefully the game is over and done with before we get there.

The hilarious part is that I don't stand a ghost of a chance of living through three nights.

But yeah, Kat, I need to know if you'll be skipping this night phase or the next one. It's fairly important information.

 

[Kawaii Kangaroo]

Yeah lets just skip the night phase that way we can have two scum lynches for the price of one

 

[Overswarm]

Vote count:


SoupaKatamari -
T-block - Degrey, Kawaii Kangaroo, Ranmaru, July,
Prehistoric Laundry Sex Dance -
Nich - Nabe, Reyth, Zen,
Nabe - Nicholas1024,
DeGrey -
Ranmaru - T-block, Videogames.jpg,

Not voting: Swiss, SoupaKatamari, Prehistoric Laundry Sex Dance,

Deadline is set for Tuesday, August 9th, at 3:00 p.m. EST
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Zen, please confirm if you want a replacement or not. At 60 pages, it's kind of a big deal. o_o

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

So, does this mean you have no meaningful response?

You really seem persistent to choke out this thread with walls.
oh look I can say baseless incriminating statements as well

@Nabe: Accept that we're not lynching Nich. He's town.

I disagree.


@VG 2357: 2309.

 

[Nicholas1024]

I'll take that as a yes.

@Kawaii
Alright, I'll take a look at someone else since Nabe lynch doesn't seem to be happening today. But if I get NK'd tonight I want you to lynch Nabe for me, I'm really certain he's scum.

 

[Reyth]

I will vote PLSD if someone else does but right now Nich is the best way to offer a valid option to Nabe/T-Block and I'm not leaving until the PLSD wagon forms.

 

[ranmaru]

Reyth what is your read on Tblock? Seeing from KK's post above, it seems if Tblock flips scum, you would be cleared, (wrt to KK's first point).

JPG, how do you feel about being copped?

Also, we need THREE more people to speak interest of a Tblock wagon. IF we can only get two, then that's fine cuz I can double up. But I would prefer three if possible.

 

[Reyth]

I've had a town read on T-Block all day that started immediately after he started to recover from his first post and hasn't ceased all game. The cases against him have been underwhelming and I will not be voting for him.

Ultimately I would rather vote for PLSD than for Nich but because of the lame wagons that have formed on Nabe and T-Block my hand has been forced; but ultimately both are lynchable.

 

[ranmaru]

Why exactly do you think feel he is town?

Also, why do you want to vote Nich?

Didn't you like PLSD earlier?

 

[July]

@July: SK lynch was fine for me because he was null and had become a lurker. I'm pretty sure I gave that reasoning before - I'll try to find it if you don't believe me. Stop selectively looking at posts/twisting my posts into a scum case. I had solid reads on you, Ran, and KK, but when you claimed masons I didn't see a need to lynch you D1. I STAYED ON MY RAN READ THOUGH, and maintained that I wanted him dead. You keep telling me I'm sidelining, but you conveniently ignore where I actually do stuff.

With SK, I saw you question it and ask people to help convince you, and then after Reyth actually arguing the opposite, that SK was town, you randomly switched votes. If you asked for reasons behind the SK wagon and got none, I assumed you were still unsure of it and I don't see how you could become suddenly convinced. That was the part I had an issue with how you reacted at the time, it seemed like you were weary to jump on SK despite your previous read on him of null/lurker.

I also said that I saw you had strong reads on Ran, KK and myself. Where you got those reads from I also have issues with though. I agreed with you early on that Ran and my conversations were weird because Ran forced me into conversation. Your Ran suspicions were the strongest, but your suspicions for me and KK had such bizarre reasoning. I know that one big issue that you had with me was that I wasn't acting like you expected me to, based on my play in Pizza mafia, but that was a whole different situation for me based in paranoia and garnering town cred. As for KK, until you listed them as your scum read along with me and Ran I don't remember you addressing them much other than addressing their unexplained town read on me. That also became a cornerstone of your suspicions towards them. So while they were strong reads as in you pushed them, they were built upon weak reasoning, with the case on Ran being the most legit.

With the Ran case its hard to read you, I'd like to see your responses to KK's points because there point about Ran's role is valid.

This is one event. You said "everytime something is posted against him" which implies multiple events. Which is it?

You also jumped to his defense after his role claim saying it all fit into place, yet you've been quick to question the legitimacy of SK's role which I find quite odd. Degrey's role is unprovable, its all based on "mod-confirmed" information. Yet you don't seem to see a chance of this as a fake/safe claim. SK's role on the other hand is provable, and whether or not the command makes sense, the command was accepted by the mod and did what SK said it would do, and the name of the ability is specific and lines up with SK's char claim.

You've also questioned me about DeGrey's post about being happy with where he is in this game (or something along those lines, I don't have the time or patience to find the exact quote), and when I gave you my interpretation of it you rejected it and said his statement made perfect sense with his play.

Those are the ones I remember, not going to ISO you just for this question, and it was pertinent to the fact that you claimed that you weren't going to attempt to read DeGrey so how can you so matter of factly say these interpretations are wrong. You cleared that up by saying you have taken that read into your own hands for a while now, which I obviously wasn't aware of.

I will vote PLSD if someone else does but right now Nich is the best way to offer a valid option to Nabe/T-Block and I'm not leaving until the PLSD wagon forms.

Would you support a Zen lynch if a wagon formed on him?

 

[Reyth]

Well all of my scum reads have claimed something and are off the table for today. YOu basically are asking me who I would like to cannibalize. The least offensive cannibalization for me is either PLSD and Nich. PLSD for not catching up properly and Nich for play which I have not agreed with all game.

 

[Reyth]

Nawww, I won't lynch Zen.

 

[ranmaru]

Why is Tblock town to you?

 

[Reyth]

I'm pretty sure I've detailed out why I like T-Block previously in-detail. I have agreed with his logic in this game for the most part. He appears to be genuinely scum hunting as well. I haven't always agreed with his conclusions but I see townie thought processes just the same.

 

[ranmaru]

Ok. Can you give me thoughts on KK's #2361?

 

[Reyth]

T-Block stuff

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13079698&postcount=1117

#1117: T-Block takes issue with DeGrey's town read on Reyth, when he himself says he hasn't reached a conclusion on Reyth. Why would a townie take issue with someone else's town read and nothing else? Especially considering he apparently didn't have a read at that stage.

I think that Reyth town is odd coming from Ryker, for meta reasons. Other than that, I can see where he's coming from for his reads.

Once again (as I have previously stated) I think KK is reaching here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13084820&postcount=1491

#1491: TB about Ran's role: "Yes, his role is provable, but I don't see why it can't be a scum role."

I'll tell you why TB! Assume Ran didn't make up his role (which is obvious), if it is a scum role it means he can force an entire mislynch on a player with no consequences. A mod wouldn't give scum a "free lynch" like that. There is no way scum could use that incorrectly or have no repercussions. It's like an unrestricted Town Wacher - Broken.

Ok, I can understand the reasoning behind a ONE-SHOT ability like Ran's as scum IF it is balanced like say with SK's role for instance. I've seen town get burned by assuming a scum power "cannot be" as I have already previously mentioned. Just the same, I can also with agree with KK's logic here too but it isn't enough to bring a scum case on T-Block either.

Though, I don't like how you changed your vote when provoked like that. Your reasoning is for "bad questions" when you realise that taking Ran's reaction to the fake claim as a scum reaction isn't valid. I've been in ran's situation twice before, and I reacted exactly (albeit, maybe without all the cussing) how he did. You accept that you're going to be lynched and do everything in your power to make sure the person faking a guilty on you gets lynched as well (either after or before).

Still, Ran's reaction was bad and so I can see where T-Block is coming from on this.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13084987&postcount=1498

#1498: TB casting suspicion about why other people do/don't want to lynch Ran. Why are you trying to make Reyth/Vg look bad? Do you actually believe Vg thinks "Ran is town, but okay with lynching him." Nonsense.

1) He is checking reads not casting suspicion (KK reaching)
2) VG said EXACTLY that (KK reaching)

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13085096&postcount=1506

#1506: TB doesn't question DeGrey about his Ran Town read. Yet he's specifically questioned 4 other people about their ran reads? Why doesn't he questioned the guy who thinks the person he's voting is town?

Ummm, sorry I don't see how him questioning Nich makes him scum. This is just an interesting point worthy of a probe by KK but not a scum tell (without further explanation through query etc).

#1719:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13093557&postcount=1719

T Block basically threatens "Ran, if you use your power tomorrow you get lynched?" Why is this a question? Isn't his point obvious enough that he doesn't need to address it as a threat to Ran? Trying to make more of something, when there really isn't.

This is a pro-town move from T-Block. The scenario laid out of being forced by Ran to lynch town is horrific and T-Block is responding properly. I see this as reaching by KK as well.

http://www.smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13096847

#1761/1762 (page 45): TB's reads scum picks. Shallow and misrepresenting of Ran imo.

He isn't misrepping Ran 2/3's of his points here are spot on accurate. The first point I disagree with because I support active scum hunting and querying and I think Ran's explanation on this point was good.

 

[T-block]

Kay I'm back x.x

Do you guys realize you are clearing Ran by trying to meta Overswarm as a mod? Do I even need to say how bad of an idea that is? I've seen town-aligned miller mafia-NK-immune able-to-force-one-person-to-vote-a-certain-way the next day from him. As someone else brought up earlier, maybe Ran isn't telling us the whole story. Maybe he has restrictions as to when he can use it, or who can be his targets. Maybe once he uses it the entire scum team becomes mafia goons. We don't know. Moreover, just because it's easily provable doesn't mean we need to believe it. What if he as scum says he's going to restrict the lynch pool to Townie A and Townie B, claims he was roleblocked, and then uses that fact to try to push a lynch on A or B? Are we still going to say he doesn't have the balls to fakeclaim that?

 

[T-block]

okay
Who's your second scum read?

It's probably July, but I think it'd be silly to lynch the claimed masons on D1. vg.jpg would come after.

 

[T-block]

T-Block stuff

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13079698&postcount=1117

#1117: T-Block takes issue with DeGrey's town read on Reyth, when he himself says he hasn't reached a conclusion on Reyth. Why would a townie take issue with someone else's town read and nothing else? Especially considering he apparently didn't have a read at that stage.

He should be more concerned with Dg's scum reads, which he isn't.

DG is not easy to read. I saw an avenue that might have led to a contradiction, so I took it. 2328 has the full explanation. Why is it so wrong to question a town read? Town on Reyth stood out quite strongly to me, coming from him.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13084820&postcount=1491

#1491: TB about Ran's role: "Yes, his role is provable, but I don't see why it can't be a scum role."

I'll tell you why TB! Assume Ran didn't make up his role (which is obvious), if it is a scum role it means he can force an entire mislynch on a player with no consequences. A mod wouldn't give scum a "free lynch" like that. There is no way scum could use that incorrectly or have no repercussions. It's like an unrestricted Town Wacher - Broken.

See 2381.

Though, I don't like how you changed your vote when provoked like that. Your reasoning is for "bad questions" when you realise that taking Ran's reaction to the fake claim as a scum reaction isn't valid. I've been in ran's situation twice before, and I reacted exactly (albeit, maybe without all the cussing) how he did. You accept that you're going to be lynched and do everything in your power to make sure the person faking a guilty on you gets lynched as well (either after or before).

I have no clue what you're talking about. I never thought that taking Ran's reaction to the fake claim as a scum reaction is invalid. And "bad questions" was the ORIGINAL reason for my suspicions on him. This paragraph makes no sense.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13084987&postcount=1498

#1498: TB casting suspicion about why other people do/don't want to lynch Ran. Why are you trying to make Reyth/Vg look bad? Do you actually believe Vg thinks "Ran is town, but okay with lynching him." Nonsense.

1385, 1440, 1445 seem to suggest that it is definitely not nonsense. Yes, I actually do believe that now. Trying to make them look bad is not my motivation. My motivation is to catch scum -_-

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13085096&postcount=1506

#1506: TB doesn't question DeGrey about his Ran Town read. Yet he's specifically questioned 4 other people about their ran reads? Why doesn't he questioned the guy who thinks the person he's voting is town?

DG has made it quite clear he has a town on Ran because his role is too strong to be scum. No need to question him.

#1719:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13093557&postcount=1719

T Block basically threatens "Ran, if you use your power tomorrow you get lynched?" Why is this a question? Isn't his point obvious enough that he doesn't need to address it as a threat to Ran? Trying to make more of something, when there really isn't.

I wanted to make it clear that Ran's ability was not to be used without town agreement. I wanted to avoid the situation where he uses it, and when we all jump on him the next day, he tries to wiggle out and defend it as a pro-town action, saying he was sure they both were scum. With his response to that question, he has no wiggle room.

I phrased it as a question because of my interaction with vg.jpg earlier. 1445 and 1478 suggest that he doesn't trust Ran to follow town direction in a scenario like that, so I asked a question to find out.

http://www.smashboards.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13096847

#1761/1762 (page 45): TB's reads scum picks. Shallow and misrepresenting of Ran imo.

Thanks for providing reasoning. I don't think it's shallow or misrepresenting.

 

[T-block]

I know that one big issue that you had with me was that I wasn't acting like you expected me to, based on my play in Pizza mafia, but that was a whole different situation for me based in paranoia and garnering town cred.

HI JULY

IF I TYPE MY POSTS IN CAPS, WILL YOU ACTUALLY READ THEM?

vvv

My meta on July in this game applies as far to say that when we are both hunting scum, our thoughts on players seem to align. And the only game we were in together, she was actually indy looking to blend (although we were still hunting scum together) so it might not even be applicable.

So no, I'm not giving meta much weight here.

 

[SoupaKatamari]

T-block is town, there is scum on this wagon.

the latest theory speculation via jpg/DeGrey makes me actually feel better about DeGrey, but not much, and only because i didn't like Jpg's reaction to it all.

Nabe is null, and i don't understand the Nich hate, unless i'm not reading something he is.

I want to say Ranmaru is scum, but..

Vote: videogames.jpg

 

[Reyth]

Ok SK, at some point if it is necessary to change wagons, who will be your main wagon choice?

Also, what do you think of my theory that your role could balance Ran's role as scum?

 

[SoupaKatamari]

Nabe probably.

It's alright but i'm not a man of speculation, i do believe mafia double-voters exist of course, i'd rather focus on the context of what the player has done then play 20 questions with the mod.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

Unvote, Vote .JPG

SK, you never answered me.

 

[Dramatic Flair]

Ehhhhhhhhh, Unvote.

 

[videogames.jpg]

JPG, how do you feel about being copped?

Cop can target me if they want. I feel like it would be a waste though. I've already said who I'd want copped.



SK's 2385, can I state how incredibly derpy this post is? Let me point it out, line by line. Starting with his first line:

T-block is town, there is scum on this wagon.

Now let's see... oh yeah, let's look at my two most recent posts in the game.

T-block wagon smells funny, just like the SK wagon did. In fact, I like the fact that SK was #1 on that wagon, but just unvoted a bit earlier.

Like, I don't remember seeing a single bit of reasoning for the TB wagon. I'll admit that I wouldn't mind lynching him toDay, but I'm damn sure not going to do it unless I see good reasons. Otherwise, there are better lynches out there.

You say TBlock is town. If I were scum, why would I openly state my distaste for his wagon, and not join it? I just explicitly opted not to vote for him, and you just explicitly said that scum are on his wagon.

the latest theory speculation via jpg/DeGrey makes me actually feel better about DeGrey, but not much, and only because i didn't like Jpg's reaction to it all.

Uhhh? Thanks for explaining. And I think my reaction was perfectly reasonable. Did you even read everything involved, and try to understand it?

Nabe is null, and i don't understand the Nich hate, unless i'm not reading something he is.

I want to say Ranmaru is scum, but..

Vote: videogames.jpg

You want to say my top scumpick is scum, but instead you'll just vote me without reasoning.

I dunno, after this post, I kind of wouldn't mind seeing you lynched... again.

Unvote, Vote .JPG

SK, you never answered me.

Ehhhhhhhhh, Unvote.

What are you

 

[Reyth]

Whaaaaaat, I don't EVEN!

 

[videogames.jpg]

Whaaaaaat, I don't EVEN!

?

Remember this:

>vg.jpg wagon

you guys are ****ing stupid with 4 votes

>any votes on obvtown asdioh

you guys are ****ing stupid

 

[videogames.jpg]

>remember talking about t-block scum

>see t-block votes

T-block is town, there is scum on this wagon.

Whaaaaaat, I don't EVEN!

Me neither, I'm so confused.

 

[Reyth]

ya .jpg het is teh suck...

 

[SoupaKatamari]

Me neither, I'm so confused.

Read can change in a period of time, i have talked with my other hydra partner and aforemention that my read faltered due to your reactions with DeGrey, i don't like how you took credibility for DeGrey finding your crumb, as if you set it there, all it did was set up WIFOM and DeGrey's motive to un-veil such crumb is somewhat pro-town considering that speculated into Terminator talk or whatever.

 

[SoupaKatamari]

You want to say my top scumpick is scum, but instead you'll just vote me without reasoning.

I dunno, after this post, I kind of wouldn't mind seeing you lynched... again.

>Implicating implications that distancing could be at work but i'm not implying that's why i'm voting you and that ranmaru has less priority over you

 

[SoupaKatamari]

You say TBlock is town. If I were scum, why would I openly state my distaste for his wagon, and not join it? I just explicitly opted not to vote for him, and you just explicitly said that scum are on his wagon.

 

[SoupaKatamari]

T-block - Degrey, Kawaii Kangaroo, Ranmaru, July,

Look, scum on the wagon, not all scum need to be on the same wagon/vote.

 

[Xivii]

Zen, please confirm if you want a replacement or not. At 60 pages, it's kind of a big deal. o_o

I'll stay if I need to. If I don't, then yes a replacement would be good.

 

[Kawaii Kangaroo]

Kay I'm back x.x

Do you guys realize you are clearing Ran by trying to meta Overswarm as a mod? Do I even need to say how bad of an idea that is? I've seen town-aligned miller mafia-NK-immune able-to-force-one-person-to-vote-a-certain-way the next day from him. As someone else brought up earlier, maybe Ran isn't telling us the whole story. Maybe he has restrictions as to when he can use it, or who can be his targets. Maybe once he uses it the entire scum team becomes mafia goons. We don't know. Moreover, just because it's easily provable doesn't mean we need to believe it. What if he as scum says he's going to restrict the lynch pool to Townie A and Townie B, claims he was roleblocked, and then uses that fact to try to push a lynch on A or B? Are we still going to say he doesn't have the balls to fakeclaim that?

I'm sorry but I'm not clearing Ran just on this point at all. Aside from 100% trusting July's read on him, I'm debunking that your case of scum Ran holds no weight.

1. You can't use his claim as evidence against him. The claim is sound and has no holes in it. If there was a hole in it, we'd be lynching him.

2. The fear of "we don't know if Ran's telling the truth" is not a valid reason to lynch him either.

3. Calling his reaction to Zen's gambit anything other than null is idiotic. You say that he overreacted, which is basically him cussing and using AtE. Can town cus and use AtE as well? Yep. Can town overreact to things? Yep. Than this is a NULL tell. The substance of his reaction is that he was WILLING to die on the premises that scum Zen from his perspective gets lynched upon his own town flip. That is EXACTLY the right move for a townie, sacrifice yourself for a scum lynch. Whether or not Ran is town, he did exactly what a townie should do (ignoring the cussing/Ate stuff that is a null tell). Therefore, it is NOT valid to use Ran's reaction as a reason to lynch him.

Overall, I have proved that these things can not logically be used as an argument for Ran scum. Your ONLY argument left for Ran scum is that he asks questions (more specifically whatever I quoted you saying above). To me this is incredibly weak reasoning and why I don't like your push on Ran at all.

You never fully explained or brought attention to why you don't like Ran's "questions that he doesn't follow up" or whatever. It's like you tacked this on as additional reasoning to 1. His bad reaction to Zen and 2. that we can't trust his claim.