Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

His aerials only lose to CC/ASDI down if they're used poorly. He can do them late or while drifting away to make them safe. A lot of moves people tend to complain about losing to ASDI down don't if they're used in the right way. True crouch is a different story, but then your opponent is stationary and easier to deal with in a few other regards.

 

[Boiko]

If he spaces bair, he loses to retreating lasers and it resets. Nair doesn't have as much range as dair, so it gets hit by CC shine. Dair can be spaced, but they can still CC punish it, or just shield and reset. Even when spaced, spacies can punish MK out of CC. As I said above though, he's just better off going for grab or punishing their aerial approach. He has the easiest time navigating neutral against Fox, but the most difficult time dealing with his approach options. Falco he can more easily deal with approaches, but has a tough time getting himself in. Wolf he has a hard time with both.

 

[_Chrome]

I was unaware that MK losing to Wolf was a popular opinion, rather than just a recurring opinion. Most MKs I've spoke to have come to the consensus that it's an even matchup, with about equal numbers thinking it's a plus or a minus (though the disadvantage opinion is becoming more apparent recently/it's a growing opinion).

As for MK losing to spacies, it's definitely not a radical concept, but most people won't agree with MK losing to Falco, even if I see that as possible.

 

[Apollo Ali]

*whispers*

i think ddd/mk is even

 

[Ripple]

*whispers*

i think ddd/mk is even

Who let you out of the discord?!

 

[_Chrome]

I think it's possible it's an even matchup, but I'm a buster, D3 kinda sucks and I don't know much about him besides he sounds like he throws up 17 tubs of lard when he dies off the side. Oh yeah, he also has the handling of a tub of lard.

 

[trash?]

meta knight is a fastfaller, DDD is a big hammer man who can CG real well and space with sentient creatures that he tosses out willingly to their death

what I'm getting at is, there is several rights issues going on here and the MK wins by virtue of having the moral high ground

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I can accept it because as far as we know ddd's schtick is being a garbo character that has memetastic matchups against top tiers

 

[Ripple]

. Oh yeah, he also has the handling of a tub of lard.

Unless I'm crazy, lard is basically butter. You're saying he's handling is like butter. Fix your analogy game.

 

[Life]

Unless I'm crazy, lard is basically butter. You're saying he's handling is like butter. Fix your analogy game.

Have you ever actually handled butter? Like with your hands?

 

[Ripple]

Have you ever actually handled butter? Like with your hands?

I've handled butter that has and hasn't been in the fridge for a day.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Lard I think refers to the solid state of it, or at least that's what he was going for. Like a cold, disgusting gloopy chunk of butter.

 

[_Chrome]

Lard might have butter-like movement properties, but it's gloopier. Also he handles like the tub of lard, not the lard itself. Think about a tub of lard with feet, but no legs. That's DDD

 

[Frost | Odds]

I've handled butter that has and hasn't been in the fridge for a day.

Schrodinger's Butter exists in a quantum superposition of both smooshy and non-smooshy states

 

[DMG]

Schrodinger's Butter exists in a quantum superposition of both smooshy and non-smooshy states

This is actually what killed his Cat. It's not radiation or poison, the idiot just kept feeding it Butter

 

[Jolteon]

I can't believe that TLS is so resilient to productive conversation that people are arguing over the qualities of lard and butter.

 

[Life]

I can't believe that TLS is so resilient to productive conversation that people are arguing over the qualities of lard and butter.

Good point. I dunno why we're talking about glorified fat when we could be talking about how terrible this thread is!

 

[CORY]

I can't believe that TLS is so resilient to productive conversation that people are arguing over the qualities of lard and butter.

Well, I can

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

dissecting poor metaphors that fail to describe gameplay is productive discussion honestly

 

[steelguttey]

hey let me start a discussion

all of the gnw's and oli's that are in the same region as a player playing the other character agree that oli goes even or beats gnw. most of oli's mus are pretty up in the air rn but thats one that has much more high level play than usual. he also has good matchups against snake and samus, oli just might be the answer to cancer

 

[DMG]

Having a good MU vs Snake doesn't seem to matter in actual Bracket. I can't remember the last time I saw a quality match vs Snake, where the other character beat him so firmly and solidly into submission that it looked anything resembling a legit counter. 5 point slight advantages in PM might as well not matter.

 

[Deleted member]

lol people still think snake loses MUs

ah ha ha ha you

 

[Zach777]

Olimar seems like a character that would give Snake issues. Olimar uses his minions as meat shield to stop nades and tranqs. Snake cannot just shield with a nade beneath him for safety because Olimar will latch pikmins onto Snake's shield/pluck more pikmin. Olimar has at least some disjoint on his fair/bair to prevent Snake's air approaches with dair/something else. Pikmin can kill Snake absurdly early sometimes. Olimar can sacrifice Pikmin to Snake's down-smash to get rid of it if necassary.

Honestly, I think a Snake player would have to figure out how to fight Olimar more than Olimar would have to figure out Snake.

The only thing that would be normal for Snake would be that he can croutch under Oli projectiles(pikmin). But Pikmin curve so Olimar would just space for it.


But by no means would Snake be completely countered by Olimar.

 

[ilysm]

I'm not going to say any of that isn't true, but speaking as an Icies main I can say that that sort of resource management has its cost. Pikmin don't invalidate grenades or tranqs. They may stop them, but you're considering one side of that situation. The other side is that Snake has a myriad of tools to kill Pikmin. Of course, there's different risk/reward for that (hitting a grenade on the Pikmin is different from hitting a tranq on the Pikmin is different from a Pikmin detonating his d-smash), but that flip side still exists. Like, Nana can also eat tranq with a quick dash dance, but now you've got a sleeping Nana. That example has more immediate consequences, but it still illustrates my point. Olimar has gotta play around his Pikmin carefully against a character with a lot of projectiles that can kill them, because he needs them in order to perform 98% of his moveset. That may be trivial in practice, though, because I don't main Olimar or Snake, so idk.

Now, in terms of a matchup, I can see how Olimar would be disruptive to Snake's gameplan. Plucking more Pikmin would give Snake time to bury more bombs or pull more grenades, so the projectile game would get kinda frustrating after a while. Another thing to consider purely from a zoning standpoint is that Snake does have a crawl, making arcing the Pikmin to hit him a lot more difficult. Also Olimar's game plan revolves primarily around hitting people with Pikmin to build percent, force approaches, and more importantle bait out unsafe moves meant to remove the Pikmin so that Olimar can punish, so when the Pikmin do hit Snake, he's uniquely suited to limit the means Olimar has to approach him while he removes the Pikmin. All that having been said, in a straight CQC fight, I can see Olimar having an advantage just due to his disjoint and good punish game. Snake's hitboxes are in all the wrong places to actually approach people or stop approaches, so he relies on his special moves. Olimar kinda messes with his special moves. It's just unclear how much that actually affects Snake's gameplan, and how much it hurts Olimar in the process.

 

[Zach777]

Good point, Indigeau.

But I play Olimar alot (not in tourney though) and the time it takes to pluck a pikmin after one got killed is very short. The pluck and chuck but save one purple mindset seems like a generally solid gameplan vs Snake.

But again, I don't hardcore main Olimar. I only play him frequently in friendlies and watch whatever top Oli tourney match I can find. Take my Olimar suggestions with a grain of salt (insert bad Snake is dumb and salt inducing joke here.)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Pluck and chuck sounds like @pooch182 's dating strategy

you heartbreaker ;(

 

[KayB]

Is it just me or does Marth vs Samus seem really difficult for Samus

 

[Chevy]

Is it just me or does Marth vs Samus seem really difficult for Samus

Seems really difficult. Closer to even at a high level.

 

[shairn]

Strong opinion from Hbox on PM g-dubz. Sounds like discussion is going to be shifting there.

 

[Life]

If Game and Watch is left in his present state it will damage the state of competitive PM and its reduce its audience. But of course everyone thinks it would be absurd to in some way modify a game that is already a mod.

Contrary to popular belief, there are still options to fix the balance of PM.

• A hard ban on Game and Watch in tournaments, a la Meta Knight in Brawl.
  
  
• A soft "consensus" ban, in which players informally agree not to use Game and Watch at tournaments. This has been done in other fighting games before, but rarely.
  
  
• A community nerf patch that brings the strongest--i.e. most unchanged from 3.02--characters down to a normal level. In my opinion, this is the best compromise for Game and Watches and non-GnWs, and should be implemented if at all feasible.
  

None of these options are "light" or easy to do, but are they really worse than letting things continue on their current course? Game and Watch may already have hurt Project M's viewership and tournament attendance, especially of top Melee players, and the situation will no doubt worsen.

(sorry I just love this pasta, especially in light of hbox's comments, and the fact that GnW continues to not win majors since the last one LZ won I guess whenever that was)

Man I haven't gotten to play this game in ages. Sadface.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Last night just realized how garbage I am at Bowser

may not actually drop him lmao

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

lz is the only gnw player to win a major in PM

lz has won two majors in the past year or so

hbox is the only puff player to win a major in like the last four years in melee

hbox was won at least two majors in the past three months

I don't think there's any issue with gnw at all, there's only an issue with how hbox isn't used to the character at all. this is especially odd because hbox has said multiple times how good mr lz is, so he acknowledges his skill. I think hbox just doesn't like losing to unknown (to him) midwest players playing a character that he has an already bad mental matchup with

(this is also funny because rewind five years back and people were saying most of the things that hbox is saying about marshall/gnw about himself and puff. how quickly we forget)

on a side note, I saw hbox attempting to do the exact same thing yesterday to every single pm character: poke with bair, weave and interrupt with nair, and then fish for dair into upsmash
and it was working for the most part, but when it didn't work or wasn't efficient enough, hbox failed to do much in the way of creative gameplay or adapting

hbox is really good at fundamentally playing puff, but he seemed lost in every matchup (especially the wario one, where he failed to capitalize on any sort of edgeguard opportunity which you just can't do as puff)

this shows two things:
first, the pm community has come a long way at getting better at the game. hbox won forte 2 using this exact strategy, but now it can't even get him top 8
second, if puff got an hbox-level player to actually sit down and develop matchup knowledge, puff would be a whole lot more feared than she currently is. fox-puff is one of the most delved-into and evolved matchups at the highest level of melee, and hbox still manages to find success. that level of matchup development is possible for every single puff matchup in pm but who knows if we'll ever see it

so in the end, despite any sort of tierlist theorycrafting, results (and therefore tiers) are carried by players. the best puff player doesn't play pm and has no idea what to do on the meta-level and the best puff player who does (shoutout to soulpech) doesn't have the same level of fundamentals that gives hbox success. so for the foreseeable lifespan of the game, puff is always going to be a low-tier character

tires don exits

 

[Player -0]

rip Wario bike. Only shoulder bash remains.

Wario bike hitbox remains on the shoulder bash though

 

[zman804]

New PMU Tier List

 

[Ripple]

"wow, how is X character so high? They suck! And how is X character so low?! LOL. Tier list is a joke"

-at least 25% of people

 

[Ningildo]

I'm not going to say any of that isn't true, but speaking as an Icies main I can say that that sort of resource management has its cost. Pikmin don't invalidate grenades or tranqs. They may stop them, but you're considering one side of that situation. The other side is that Snake has a myriad of tools to kill Pikmin. Of course, there's different risk/reward for that (hitting a grenade on the Pikmin is different from hitting a tranq on the Pikmin is different from a Pikmin detonating his d-smash), but that flip side still exists. Like, Nana can also eat tranq with a quick dash dance, but now you've got a sleeping Nana. That example has more immediate consequences, but it still illustrates my point. Olimar has gotta play around his Pikmin carefully against a character with a lot of projectiles that can kill them, because he needs them in order to perform 98% of his moveset. That may be trivial in practice, though, because I don't main Olimar or Snake, so idk.

Now, in terms of a matchup, I can see how Olimar would be disruptive to Snake's gameplan. Plucking more Pikmin would give Snake time to bury more bombs or pull more grenades, so the projectile game would get kinda frustrating after a while. Another thing to consider purely from a zoning standpoint is that Snake does have a crawl, making arcing the Pikmin to hit him a lot more difficult. Also Olimar's game plan revolves primarily around hitting people with Pikmin to build percent, force approaches, and more importantle bait out unsafe moves meant to remove the Pikmin so that Olimar can punish, so when the Pikmin do hit Snake, he's uniquely suited to limit the means Olimar has to approach him while he removes the Pikmin. All that having been said, in a straight CQC fight, I can see Olimar having an advantage just due to his disjoint and good punish game. Snake's hitboxes are in all the wrong places to actually approach people or stop approaches, so he relies on his special moves. Olimar kinda messes with his special moves. It's just unclear how much that actually affects Snake's gameplan, and how much it hurts Olimar in the process.

Tranq only does 1% so the only Pikmin they might kill semi consistently are White Pikmin.

And while it is true that grenades and explosives do kill multiple Pikmin with ease, you have remember that by the time Snake has thrown one grenade and is out of lag, Olimar can repluck all 4 of his Pikmin (IASA for Grenade pull + toss is 45, while it's 11 for a successful Pluck), which means unless Snake managed to both kill all of Olimar's Pikmin and be near him at the same time, Oli can easily keep Pikmin stocked. Pikmin Toss is also fairly fast with an FAF of 25, so by the time it collides with either projectile (grenade/tranq), Oli more than likely is able to do another one while Snake is still in lag.

I have no real idea how it would play out at top level play, as I've only played the MU a handful of times and am far from said level, nor is there any real footage of this MU being played in general, but if it comes to down to a drawn out projectile battle, Oli has the advantage in all likelihood.



And yeah, Olimar is way too low, but at this point Olimar mains need to step up and place well instead of claiming the character is good and not doing much else.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I mean there's things I disagree with but nothing I see strikes me as something that's so far beyond the ream of opinion that I would complain about it

all in all, pretty good tierlist

my only real qualm is that ivy seems a little low. other than that, all of the placements are within the realm of reason or close enough to make no matter

 

[Kapapanerp]

Honestly the only thing that seems out of place is Roy. I'd imagine the work that Lunchmans been putting in would have him at low A tier at least.

 

[Life]

I think if we're allowed to use speculation to determine where characters go on the list (and IMO we should), GnW is too high and Falco and Sonic are too low.

If we're not allowed to use speculation, then literally all of S tier except Diddy needs to fall. I also think Peach might be really good in that context, considering she has like five high level mains which is more than every S-tier.

I can expound on any of those if anyone cares, just not feeling it in this post.

 

[Kushina43]

>Fox not number 1
*complaint noises*

But honestly it is a pretty good list. While I wish my King Bowser wasn't stuck at the bottom, it's interesting how I'm playing both the best and worst characters on this tier list