shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
Sweet deal
Play bowser for the cred, diddy for the W
-
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Play bowser for the cred, diddy for the W
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
it's like junebug memeing stage-first counterpicks but with a worse character
I've said this before, the more I think about ganon, the more I like him. I hate fighting against ganon, but that's also exactly why I like him. He has glaring weaknesses and things that can definitely be taken advantage of, but he also has strengths and manages to fulfill the role of "polarizing mid-tier grappler" exceptionally well. He has few mixups, but by god they hurt when you land them. Things will seem hopeless when playing against a good ganon player, and ganon does have some silly good matchups because of his god-given right to just plow through some things and not care about others and kill people at 60 off the side of ghz
bowser is like ganon except bad and not good and the only people that lose to bowser are frauds with no fundamentals like me
I've said this before, the more I think about ganon, the more I like him. I hate fighting against ganon, but that's also exactly why I like him. He has glaring weaknesses and things that can definitely be taken advantage of, but he also has strengths and manages to fulfill the role of "polarizing mid-tier grappler" exceptionally well. He has few mixups, but by god they hurt when you land them. Things will seem hopeless when playing against a good ganon player, and ganon does have some silly good matchups because of his god-given right to just plow through some things and not care about others and kill people at 60 off the side of ghz
bowser is like ganon except bad and not good and the only people that lose to bowser are frauds with no fundamentals like me
Or you lose to Odds cause he's way better than you. Odds made me reconsider life after a couple friendlies at LTC. Not sure I won a single game, maybe coulda won the very last one last stock before we had to get up, but otherwise he Bowser Bombed straight thru my butthole
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Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
You are likely to mess up more in bracket and Snake punishes mistakes pretty hard, so yeah that sounds correct.
D
Deleted member
Guest
**** snake
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
>people complain that meta knight is second on the new new pmu tierlist
>metaknight mains have a conference
>"how can we prove ourselves to not be scrubs with a good character"
>secret tech ensues
and that's how two metaknights got top 2 at two very large regionals
(also dexter is good shoutout to minnesota hidden bosses)
(also shoutout to emu for winning his first large tournament since the infamous mew2 one)
>metaknight mains have a conference
>"how can we prove ourselves to not be scrubs with a good character"
>secret tech ensues
and that's how two metaknights got top 2 at two very large regionals
(also dexter is good shoutout to minnesota hidden bosses)
(also shoutout to emu for winning his first large tournament since the infamous mew2 one)
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ilysm
sleepy
Rawkobo
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2014
- Messages
- 565
MK needed an already established top player to come forward and show what he could do. They couldn't convince Lunchables to do it even if his is apparently god tier. So Emu took up the sword and apparently read Tealz's down-B guide.
Shoutouts to @Tealz.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
luigi can get a sketchy version of the kamemushi combo with a banana off of a grounded footstool on diddy
matchup is now 100/0 in luigi's favor
diddy now f tier
matchup is now 100/0 in luigi's favor
diddy now f tier
Bottom 5
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
so it turns out zard is actually top tier
Flipp was rightso it turns out zard is actually top tier
Kapapanerp
Smash Apprentice
No idea what a kamemushi combo is, but footstool setups are dank af. Mind explaining what it is, or am I being trolled lmao
Life
Smash Hero
>zard is top tier
Okay who beat whom and have they played a Zard before
Okay who beat whom and have they played a Zard before
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
footstool > zdrop banana to force trip, then do a jab reset on the tripped diddy to shoryuken
also works with dtilt as a jab reset but idk if that actually works they may be able to roll out it's also a lot tighter but it adds like 12 percent to the entire combo
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
But you can tech trips in PM
Granted it would be hard in this scenario since it's a Z drop
Granted it would be hard in this scenario since it's a Z drop
JOE!
Smash Hero
Life
Smash Hero
Diddy is a fair and balanced character
JOE!
Smash Hero
Towards the end when Kycse was gliding in to grab, June was reading and spot dodging. If Kycse just picked up on that and waited a moment he couldve just grabbed anyway.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
I still don't understand how that glide to getting on top of the ledge works. I always just end up regrabbing ledge =[
Player -0
Smash Hero
Assuming he did the Brawl thing it's like a thing Kakera (I think it was Kakera, Otori?) did where they'd glide up/through the ledge
There's an angle on the control stick that you hold back/down. You hold back so you go up but down so you don't grab ledge.
For the Luigi thing I assumed it was a footstool -> AGT down/throw down -> Shoryu (which beats tech due to lack of invincibility frames on start of tech iirc).
There's an angle on the control stick that you hold back/down. You hold back so you go up but down so you don't grab ledge.
For the Luigi thing I assumed it was a footstool -> AGT down/throw down -> Shoryu (which beats tech due to lack of invincibility frames on start of tech iirc).
The tech is invincible frame 1, but you can't actually tech for 20+ frames.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
alright since this thread hasn't seen a post in a week I'm here to give you all some [un]informed opinions about tiers in this game
this is based off of a bunch of things (mainly just watching a ****ton of videos as well as reading the entirety of this thread over the course of a couple years plus a bunch of theorycrafted dolphin gifs) and doesn't really take into account machup numbers because matchup numbers are meaningless and questionable in their current pm state at best (and even then, a character's tier placement is not merely the sum of their mu numbers)
some explanations:
characters ARE ordered within tiers.
the color gradients between tiers are a rough estimate on my part of how much of a gap their is between each one. if you don't want to interpret color gradients, I think there's a relatively significant gap between B+ and A tier and between 100 tier and A tier. There's a less significant gap between B- tier and C tier, and the gaps between the various B tiers are just barely significant enough to be noted.
100 tier: These are the best characters in the game, and they have a multitude of ways to be played that are all equally high-quality. This is probably the tier that is least ordered within itself, but this is the order that I felt most comfortable putting the characters in. Wolf is probably the best character in the game and fox is probably not, that's all I can really tell you. These are characters that will win a tournament by themselves if their player is the best player at the tournament, and might win a tournament even if their player is not the best one present.
A tier: These characters are very good and have a dominant playstyle as well as versatile options to deviate from that playstyle and deal with harder matchups. They do have some bad/gimmicky matchups from lower tiers and generally lose to the characters above them. These are the characters that cause other people to hate the game and will win a tournament by themselves if their player is the best present. Combinations of multiple characters in this tier cover pretty much every matchup and gives a reasonable chance to place higher than a solo main of the 100 tier characters.
B+ tier: Good characters that have a "usual gameplan" but often have to vary from it (sometimes widely) to deal with problematic matchups and can occasionally run into things that simply shut them down. Tink is the high-tier gatekeeper. These characters can win a tournament if their player is the best one there by a reasonable margin. However, these characters also have to deal with bracket luck and gimmicks, but are on the giving and receiving end of gimmicks equally often. Some combinations of these characters could theoretically have a large matchup coverage, but the time investment in each character is so large it's rarely seen, except for Falco and Marth who are good counterpick characters but also have a hard time dealing with PM things and accumulated melee matchup knowledge.
B tier: This is the most eclectic mix of characters that often have disparities between theoretical performance and objective tournament results, or have weirdly skewed risk/reward patterns such as touch of death confirms coupled with other poor traits. These characters often live or die off of gimmicks/bracket luck but the important fact is that they can live. These characters can win a tournament with good bracket luck and/or a player that is the best at the tournament. Some of these characters work well as counterpicks or multimains, but some (namely Ice Climbers) have such a deep gameplan it precludes them from being counterpick characters but enables them to be solo-mained with some success. These characters have robust gameplans but will occasionally run into things they just can't deal with.
B- tier: You need to put in work with these characters but they have good traits that can carry you far. These characters have skewed matchups where they are above average or exceptional against certain traits but get invalidated by other traits. These characters can look stifling in the hands of the right player with the right matchup but can also look stifled against an equally skilled opponent in a different matchup. These are often used as counterpick characters to complement a higher tier or meme on people who don't have matchup experience. The gameplans for some of these characters can be parsed down to things like "weave"/"run away" , which makes them easy to learn as counterpick characters. However, all of these characters have mixups that can be used as reads to grant success beyond the "counterpick character" level. A solo main of these characters needs to be significantly better than anybody else at a tournament and have bracket luck.
C tier: The "low tiers" of PM, although a better analogue is the mid-tiers of melee. They have tools but also have glaring weaknesses that can oftentimes lead to a degenerate neutral game that is singly focused on the opponent running into their tools or not knowing the counterplay to them. In comparison to melee mid-tiers, these characters are helped by the expanded stagelist, which helps minimize their weaknesses and emphasize their strengths, but they will lose a stage counterpick war. A skilled player will find success with good reads, as all these characters do have tools, but will need to significantly outplay a high tier opponent. These characters can be stifling at lower-level play but it is highly unlikely these characters will win a large tournament.
???? tier: I honestly don't know what to do with olimar lmao. Do I judge him based off of his current demonstrated state? (B- tier) Do I judge him based off of the olimar discord's theorycrafting of close to perfect pikmin control leading to a dominant stage presence and the nickname "chibi astronaut falco"? (B+ tier) Do I find some sort of average and put him in the middle (B tier) Is olimar invalidated by any fox that can spam lasers and press upsmash? (yes, so C tier). I just don't know how all of olimar's tools and weaknesses combine in practice, and his stock-to-stock life is ruled by RNG (which itself is dependent on what specific surface of specific stages he pulls his pikmin on) which makes me really hesitant to put him anywhere.
caveat: I'm bad at this game and all of my opinions are probably wrong and I probably don't have any insight in this post aside from acting as a literature review of the general PM tierlist research.
tires don exits, but it's fun to think about them and play theorycrafting games with yourself
edit: I probably just wrote a lot and said a little idk just look at the picture and tell me how wrong I am
this is based off of a bunch of things (mainly just watching a ****ton of videos as well as reading the entirety of this thread over the course of a couple years plus a bunch of theorycrafted dolphin gifs) and doesn't really take into account machup numbers because matchup numbers are meaningless and questionable in their current pm state at best (and even then, a character's tier placement is not merely the sum of their mu numbers)
some explanations:
characters ARE ordered within tiers.
the color gradients between tiers are a rough estimate on my part of how much of a gap their is between each one. if you don't want to interpret color gradients, I think there's a relatively significant gap between B+ and A tier and between 100 tier and A tier. There's a less significant gap between B- tier and C tier, and the gaps between the various B tiers are just barely significant enough to be noted.
100 tier: These are the best characters in the game, and they have a multitude of ways to be played that are all equally high-quality. This is probably the tier that is least ordered within itself, but this is the order that I felt most comfortable putting the characters in. Wolf is probably the best character in the game and fox is probably not, that's all I can really tell you. These are characters that will win a tournament by themselves if their player is the best player at the tournament, and might win a tournament even if their player is not the best one present.
A tier: These characters are very good and have a dominant playstyle as well as versatile options to deviate from that playstyle and deal with harder matchups. They do have some bad/gimmicky matchups from lower tiers and generally lose to the characters above them. These are the characters that cause other people to hate the game and will win a tournament by themselves if their player is the best present. Combinations of multiple characters in this tier cover pretty much every matchup and gives a reasonable chance to place higher than a solo main of the 100 tier characters.
B+ tier: Good characters that have a "usual gameplan" but often have to vary from it (sometimes widely) to deal with problematic matchups and can occasionally run into things that simply shut them down. Tink is the high-tier gatekeeper. These characters can win a tournament if their player is the best one there by a reasonable margin. However, these characters also have to deal with bracket luck and gimmicks, but are on the giving and receiving end of gimmicks equally often. Some combinations of these characters could theoretically have a large matchup coverage, but the time investment in each character is so large it's rarely seen, except for Falco and Marth who are good counterpick characters but also have a hard time dealing with PM things and accumulated melee matchup knowledge.
B tier: This is the most eclectic mix of characters that often have disparities between theoretical performance and objective tournament results, or have weirdly skewed risk/reward patterns such as touch of death confirms coupled with other poor traits. These characters often live or die off of gimmicks/bracket luck but the important fact is that they can live. These characters can win a tournament with good bracket luck and/or a player that is the best at the tournament. Some of these characters work well as counterpicks or multimains, but some (namely Ice Climbers) have such a deep gameplan it precludes them from being counterpick characters but enables them to be solo-mained with some success. These characters have robust gameplans but will occasionally run into things they just can't deal with.
B- tier: You need to put in work with these characters but they have good traits that can carry you far. These characters have skewed matchups where they are above average or exceptional against certain traits but get invalidated by other traits. These characters can look stifling in the hands of the right player with the right matchup but can also look stifled against an equally skilled opponent in a different matchup. These are often used as counterpick characters to complement a higher tier or meme on people who don't have matchup experience. The gameplans for some of these characters can be parsed down to things like "weave"/"run away" , which makes them easy to learn as counterpick characters. However, all of these characters have mixups that can be used as reads to grant success beyond the "counterpick character" level. A solo main of these characters needs to be significantly better than anybody else at a tournament and have bracket luck.
C tier: The "low tiers" of PM, although a better analogue is the mid-tiers of melee. They have tools but also have glaring weaknesses that can oftentimes lead to a degenerate neutral game that is singly focused on the opponent running into their tools or not knowing the counterplay to them. In comparison to melee mid-tiers, these characters are helped by the expanded stagelist, which helps minimize their weaknesses and emphasize their strengths, but they will lose a stage counterpick war. A skilled player will find success with good reads, as all these characters do have tools, but will need to significantly outplay a high tier opponent. These characters can be stifling at lower-level play but it is highly unlikely these characters will win a large tournament.
???? tier: I honestly don't know what to do with olimar lmao. Do I judge him based off of his current demonstrated state? (B- tier) Do I judge him based off of the olimar discord's theorycrafting of close to perfect pikmin control leading to a dominant stage presence and the nickname "chibi astronaut falco"? (B+ tier) Do I find some sort of average and put him in the middle (B tier) Is olimar invalidated by any fox that can spam lasers and press upsmash? (yes, so C tier). I just don't know how all of olimar's tools and weaknesses combine in practice, and his stock-to-stock life is ruled by RNG (which itself is dependent on what specific surface of specific stages he pulls his pikmin on) which makes me really hesitant to put him anywhere.
caveat: I'm bad at this game and all of my opinions are probably wrong and I probably don't have any insight in this post aside from acting as a literature review of the general PM tierlist research.
tires don exits, but it's fun to think about them and play theorycrafting games with yourself
edit: I probably just wrote a lot and said a little idk just look at the picture and tell me how wrong I am
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eideeiit
Smash Ace
Ur very rong.
The things I get the least are Peach and Zard. Peach is definitely one of those hard CPable chars Imo. Zard also cannot be "invalidated" or close to it like Kirby perhaps can be. He just gets blown up super hard gets grabbed and stuff. Having to play perfect is way different from perfection not being enough. Though I probs know less than you haha.
Also I've been unable to follow PM as well as I'd have liked in the past month. What's gone down that I should know of? Who has won/lost and why?
The things I get the least are Peach and Zard. Peach is definitely one of those hard CPable chars Imo. Zard also cannot be "invalidated" or close to it like Kirby perhaps can be. He just gets blown up super hard gets grabbed and stuff. Having to play perfect is way different from perfection not being enough. Though I probs know less than you haha.
Also I've been unable to follow PM as well as I'd have liked in the past month. What's gone down that I should know of? Who has won/lost and why?
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Life
Smash Hero
My issues when I played Zard were that I couldn't figure out how to get down from being launched and I couldn't figure out how to get off the ledge and Kycse has figured out both of those things so Zard is probably not bottom tier
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Player -0
Smash Hero
Found a glitch on PS2 with Pika. If you single zap from the respawn platform (or general area) to the right platform for a ledgecancel Pika falls off platform then sinks into PS2 and then pops back up.
/random
Edit - I think it needs to be from an ~45° angle and touching plat before sliding off. No horizontal momentum
/random
Edit - I think it needs to be from an ~45° angle and touching plat before sliding off. No horizontal momentum
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Warzenschwein
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Messages
- 331
what are we calling this revolutionary tech
Player -0
Smash Hero
I vote zipghostsaveporting.
it combines every part of the technique into a very simple name
Yeah it's really specific though, I'm not really sure how exactly to get it but it definitely works. You should get absolutely 0 horizontal momentum. I currently have a 10% success rate (with cpu guy being a pain)
it combines every part of the technique into a very simple name
Yeah it's really specific though, I'm not really sure how exactly to get it but it definitely works. You should get absolutely 0 horizontal momentum. I currently have a 10% success rate (with cpu guy being a pain)
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
how will this affect the meta
Luk101
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2015
- Messages
- 66
I know he has the glide from ledge, but what does kysce use to come down?
Life
Smash Hero
Relative to me? He's willing to glide to plats (I never wanted to risk glide in that situation), which also opens up b-reverse glide mixups; I think he's better at spacing/timing aerials on shield as he comes down; possibly airdodging idk been a while since I played Charizard in tournament
Same glitch as the Ganon thing on Bowser's Castle.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3pleir/bug_a_ganon_in_the_player_2_spawn_position_can/
As far as I can tell it can happen on any edge if you hit it just right. Your collision gets stuck on it for whatever reason.
Here's two other instances of it happening
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