Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

It's not the IASA frames it's that the entire animation plays slower on heavier characters and vice versa. Which results in more frames of endlag even after they have been released. Most throws have this quality, there are exceptions. This is the only way weight affects throws, 100 weight is assumed for knockback purposes on every throw in every game(except Sm4sh maybe?).

In both brawl and smash 4, weight also affects throw kb.

 

[Chevy]

In both brawl and smash 4, weight also affects throw kb.

Neat, I always thought Brawl was the same.

 

[Life]

wario is broken

 

[_Chrome]

I remember being salted at for saying that a number of months ago. Good times.

 

[Player -0]

Design talk for a minute.

I was thinking of Wario's D-Smash and it's purpose. Obviously (I think I'm right? lol) it's a tech reset/awkward spike. I was thinking about how it executes this function. As a reset it meteors people into the ground and either pops up or knocks people down. I don't recall when it awkwardly knocks people that are trying to CC down. In terms of a function it's pretty neat. Don't have enough time to do setup? Throw a reset in which they can get out of but if they miss they'll get punished harder/etc. In terms of how Wario D-Smash works it makes DI really ineffective and teching is pretty much a necessity. Though this can be difficult due to the awkward nature of the move.


Look at two other moves, Lucas D-Tilt (does this move have 2 hitboxes? Lucas is jank af so idek) and Roy Jab on fast fallers (spacies) at mid-high. Both of these have similarities to Wario D-Smash in that they pop the opponent up/forward and they're forced to make a tech. These on the other hand, can be DI'ed to make the teching easier via window and/or reacting.

This whole post was secretly a setup for me to complain on how Wario D-Smash works.

 

[Bazkip]

We could go on for pages about Wario. So much of his crap is super questionable.

Lunchables pls fix.

 

[Soft Serve]

yeah nerf wario and snake game and watch and wolf


diddy is fine i swear

 

[Bazkip]

yeah nerf wario and snake game and watch and wolf


diddy is fine i swear

Your massive trove of gfys expose your lies

 

[ilysm]

Softie's like The Riddler; he just can't stop himself from leaving huge amounts of self-incriminating evidence at the scene of every crime he commits against this game and its players. It's like a compulsion.

 

[JOE!]

Design talk for a minute.

I was thinking of Wario's D-Smash and it's purpose. Obviously (I think I'm right? lol) it's a tech reset/awkward spike. I was thinking about how it executes this function. As a reset it meteors people into the ground and either pops up or knocks people down. I don't recall when it awkwardly knocks people that are trying to CC down. In terms of a function it's pretty neat. Don't have enough time to do setup? Throw a reset in which they can get out of but if they miss they'll get punished harder/etc. In terms of how Wario D-Smash works it makes DI really ineffective and teching is pretty much a necessity. Though this can be difficult due to the awkward nature of the move.


Look at two other moves, Lucas D-Tilt (does this move have 2 hitboxes? Lucas is jank af so idek) and Roy Jab on fast fallers (spacies) at mid-high. Both of these have similarities to Wario D-Smash in that they pop the opponent up/forward and they're forced to make a tech. These on the other hand, can be DI'ed to make the teching easier via window and/or reacting.

This whole post was secretly a setup for me to complain on how Wario D-Smash works.

Why the hell does his Dsmash shockwave hit aerial opponents but Charizard's and DK's (down B) dont?

 

[_Chrome]

Good quesiton JOE! ... and I'm not sure anyone has a real explanation for it.

 

[shairn]

The explanation is that Strong Badam was on the pmdt

 

[Strong Badam]

I used to come in and inform whenever people were confused about a supposed inconsistency. Characters are VERY different and putting the same tool on the other is a bad idea because it wouldn't fit their expressed personality, become problematic due to other attributes or options that character has, or various other reasons. But people don't want to hear the truth, they just want to make it all seem like a conspiracy to keep the low tiers down or whatever. When 90% of the time people argued with me instead of listening and learning, it slowly became obvious that it was just a waste of my time and I went elsewhere.

The explanation is that Strong Badam was on the pmdt

What is that supposed to mean? What does it contribute to the discussion?

 

[Life]

If this seems rough to you, think about how much the GnW mains and the Squirtle mains and the Snake mains have to put up with every time their characters win tournaments (and that the Fox mains put up with all the time despite tournament results). Gonna be riots in the streets if MrLZ wins Olympus.

Also, is there a more appropriate forum to talk PM character design?

 

[Strong Badam]

Uhhh trust me, no one has been harassed over PM character design more than me, not even close.

 

[PlateProp]

Why the hell does his Dsmash shockwave hit aerial opponents but Charizard's and DK's (down B) dont?

Becuz they dont deserve free tech chase kappa

 

[shairn]

I used to come in and inform whenever people were confused about a supposed inconsistency. Characters are VERY different and putting the same tool on the other is a bad idea because it wouldn't fit their expressed personality, become problematic due to other attributes or options that character has, or various other reasons. But people don't want to hear the truth, they just want to make it all seem like a conspiracy to keep the low tiers down or whatever. When 90% of the time people argued with me instead of listening and learning, it slowly became obvious that it was just a waste of my time and I went elsewhere.


What is that supposed to mean? What does it contribute to the discussion?

Just answering their question, although it does seem that I implied it was a conscious development. I don't think I'm wrong, but I don't think it was intentional or malicious either. We're all human.

 

[Zoa]

Man, Strong Bad, I feel for you. While I don't generally agree with some character designs I still appreciate all the former PMDT has put into PM. While a simple thanks won't suffice for all the former PMDT has done, I'll say it anyways.

Thank you. The game is awesome. You all did an awesome job.

 

[Strong Badam]

Just answering their question, although it does seem that I implied it was a conscious development. I don't think I'm wrong, but I don't think it was intentional or malicious either. We're all human.

It definitely makes it seem like it's because I main Wario that his down-smash works the way it does, like it's some bias or something. It ignores that Wario's Down Smash functioned that way for two years before I even considered playing him. I got enough of it over the course of 6 years, I don't need to be tagged into threads that I haven't read in weeks to read stuff like this. It's rude and I don't really appreciate it. Leave me alone please.

 

[Kipcom]

Why the hell does his Dsmash shockwave hit aerial opponents but Charizard's and DK's (down B) dont?

I think the better question is why does Wario have it, rather than why don't other characters have it.

No one needs that ****.

Then again, I just realized my last statement sums up a huge chunk of PM's design in the first place. Eh

 

[_Chrome]

I think the better question is why does Wario have it, rather than why don't other characters have it.

No one needs that ****.

Then again, I just realized my last statement sums up a huge chunk of PM's design in the first place. Eh

True haha. Whenever I would fool around and play Wario I would spam his dsmash for tech chasing because it's super good lol. I always wished Charizard's worked in the same way, but whatever.

 

[Player -0]

Zard's feels like it should be a popup and not a tech reset though.

idk character design stuff.


Wario's feels like it kinda fits his theme (funky stuff with resets. Though I don't know if it was went about well. I still have problems with shoulder bash being dumb lol).

The part where Wario's comes into question is that it pops up at higher percents for pretty much a shoulder bash/whatev and the trouble escaping it due to teching being the sole option of escaping (and Wario is made for tech chasing. Part of his theme I think?)

 

[Shellfire]

It's like that for one reason likely: no one actually put that much thought into the details. Definitely isn't the first time. Quite a few instances of some seemingly tiny attribute change totally ****ing something else.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not every character needs the same tools and attributes or they start to blend into each other.

PM team towards the end of design was definitely aiming for that to make charcters stand out.

I don't think the Zard v Wario thing in terms of differences is the same thing, when you also need to consider both characters on a whole.

 

[JOE!]

Sort of unrelated, but is there any sort of formula to calculate how long it takes to escape a grab based on % / etc? Also, is it true that pummels stale the throw or some weirdness?

Curious if I could whip something up for each character in terms of like, "X pummels at Y % are guaranteed pre-throw".

 

[Player -0]

Pretty sure there's a formula that calculates the base grab length then it's decreased by a certain number of inputs. This formula applies for certain characters during the grab (tether grabs LOL. Rip Link more iirc).

Pummels are separate for the throw unless something jank is janky.


In terms of guaranteed pummels in P:M it depends on the opponent really heavily due to being able to set the D-Pad to not taunt inputs. This allows inhumane levels of mashing that doesn't like even allow 1 pummel at 100%.

I'm not sure where the formulerr is. Maybe a PMDT dood has it.

 

[Life]

I don't have the formula, but it's something along the lines of a certain number of frames, scaling upwards with damage, where each mash input (attack, special, or a control stick direction) reduces the timer by an extra 8 frames (I'm pretty sure it's 8) and pummels increase it slightly (not sure if that's like a hitlag thing or what)

 

[Deleted member]

Uhhh trust me, no one has been harassed over PM character design more than me, not even close.

at least 70% of this is because theres no one person known to be accountable for GAW lol

 

[ilysm]

Life If I recall correctly, pummeling an opponent puts them in an oh-i'm-getting-hit-by-a-pummel animation that lasts 18 frames, during which they can't mash out, but it doesn't stall the escape counter. Getting hit by a non-pummel attack while in a grab causes you to enter said animation for just one frame. This is why wobbling doesn't exist in PM.

Pummeling is bad in this game.

 

[JOE!]

Life If I recall correctly, pummeling an opponent puts them in an oh-i'm-getting-hit-by-a-pummel animation that lasts 18 frames, during which they can't mash out, but it doesn't stall the escape counter. Getting hit by a non-pummel attack while in a grab causes you to enter said animation for just one frame. This is why wobbling doesn't exist in PM.

Pummeling is bad in this game.

So like, you are guaranteed at least 1 given the 18 frames they are stuck being pummeled?

 

[ilysm]

I don't think so due to the endlag of the actual pummel. My thought is that the mash window is now pretty much strictly determined by percent.

 

[DMG]

Is pummel - Cstick buffer Dthrow still a thing in PM? Read about it in Melee working on Dthrow, wasn't sure if applied to PM at all for any throw

 

[ilysm]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nope.

 

[DMG]

Best answer:

 

[JOE!]

So, still no word on the pummel window / etc from anyone?

 

[ilysm]

If this is regarding the chart, I'd factor out pummels as they essentially do nothing. Percent is really all that matters. As long as percent lets you mash out within a certain window of being grabbed, a pummel before throwing is not guaranteed (i.e, you may get the pummel off if you're quick, but they'll break out of the grab before you can throw).

 

[DMG]

Ya pummels sound risky in PM. Time to Dthrow fools into oblivion

 

[Only a NOOB]

Elements > Turtles

Water > Fire

Squirtle = Water, Bowser = Fire

Squirtle > Bowser

Now the shoe is on the other hand!

Except you seem to have forgotten that Dragon types resist Water moves! Checkmate!

 

[DMG]

But water pokemon usually come with ice beam or other ice moves, REVERSE CHECKMATE

 

[eideeiit]

How does one beat Ike again? I saw a great Fox lose to a good Ike and started wondering.
My guesses:
Moves have big start-up->focus on interupting.
Weak to cross ups.
Grabs have such reward that you don't want to mess with them->try to play a bit outside dash SH nair range where (I think?) you can shield fairs and react to Quickdraws and interrupt them and don't have to take the grab/aerial/WD mixups.