Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

smash box wont matter tbh. the reason you're losing isn't your control scheme.

I don't think anyone suggested that, but you're nuts if you think better controllers doesn't mean more consistency and more advanced tech being within practical human usability

where do you think rob's location on a tier list is nowadays

somewhere in the top 20 but not top 10, but I'm generally pretty optimistic on him

 

[DMG]

I still think the superior version will be a Smashbox that included a control stick, even if that means compromising and somehow accomodating both the new buttons and stick. Most FGC or traditional stick players I know or have talked to over FB, were not enthusiastic on replacing the stick entirely with buttons. I think that's possibly a mistake, even with all the known stick issues and inconsistencies per controller.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Luigi is top 15

 

[KinGly]

Luigi is top 15

In giant mode Luigi can chaingrab floaties 0-death. This obviously makes him #14.5

 

[Deleted member]

In giant mode Luigi can chaingrab floaties 0-death. This obviously makes him #14.5

i have a good doctor i can refer you to in dallas.

---

luigi is definitely not top 15, and probably not top 25 either

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Rob is top 5. His spinny move is too good.

 

[KinGly]

i have a good doctor i can refer you to in dallas.

---

luigi is definitely not top 15, and probably not top 25 either

I'm too far gone for a doctor to help me

 

[Zach777]

Bowser is clearly the best. Every low level player says so.

 

[Deleted member]

bowser is grossly mis-characterized as a bottom tier. there are many characters worse than bowser. i wouldnt put him top half, but putting him at worst in the game seems absurd.

 

[xquqx]

bowser is grossly mis-characterized as a bottom tier. there are many characters worse than bowser..

Such as? No sense coming in here and throwing around statements that contradict what seems to be a fairly common consensus without at least naming some examples. Could even bring some life back into this thread by starting a discussion.

 

[eideeiit]

I know nothing, but I guess it would probably be something like...

Bowser's mechanics hard counter so many options that he can turn many situations that normally are much more open-ended and varied into simple coin tosses, so to say. He can play a mid-level game even versus high-level opponents, which should favor the Bowser-player as that's what he always does.

*put a dog driving a car here*

 

[DrinkingFood]

*put a dog driving a car here*

╭━━━━╮ This is cooldog. Help
╰┃ ┣▇━▇ cooldog take over
 ┃ ┃  ╰━▅╮ Smashboards by pasting
 ╰┳╯ ╰━━┳╯ him in 10 other
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[_Chrome]

Kirby is possibly worse than Bowser, given he hardly has any strengths at all outside of a pretty effective edge game, however he shouldn't actually be able to corner his opponent since he's so slow, which also leads to inconsistent followups out of something like his dthrow.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

╭━━━━╮ This is cooldog. Help
╰┃ ┣▇━▇ cooldog take over
 ┃ ┃  ╰━▅╮ Smashboards by pasting
 ╰┳╯ ╰━━┳╯ him in 10 other
  ╰╮ ┳━━╯ threads or you
 ▕▔▋ ╰╮╭━╮ will never be a cool dog.
╱▔╲▋╰━┻┻╮╲╱▔▔▔╲
▏  ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔  O O┃
╲╱▔╲▂▂▂▂╱▔╲▂▂▂╱
 ▏╳▕▇▇▕ ▏╳▕▇▇▕
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wow top player opinions I hope to one day be able to understand the game to this depth

Luigi is top 15

obviously


this post is entirely devoid of content

luigi is top 15 but so are like 20 other characters and also luigi is spoopy as hell to play

 

[Haden]

IMO, the best 3 characters in the game for 3.6 are Metaknight, Wolf and Fox. MK because great frame advantages and gimp options, Wolf because SUPER consistent 0 to death combos and easy wave-laser approaches and the Fox because in spite a couple tweaks is basically still Fox doing what Fox always did....... shine off stage and shine upsmash + the brutal up air is still a thing with great combos and super awesome frame data. I think most of the people playing this game can agree on these 3 characters at least being in the top 5

 

[InfinityCollision]

M2 seems very solid against the trend of MK Wolf Diddy all getting extremely popular

MK and Diddy, yes. Wolf somewhat less so, but it's doable.

odd chars that don't feel so combo-food for him

That's really not a thing.

Link or TL

I would argue that he wins the Link matchup, though Tink can be troublesome.

If you want to beat a proficient Mewtwo, you need to fully cover the space between HC fair range and max range dash->Teleport/TeleAC range without exposing yourself to attacks from another position (most often the space directly behind you), and you have to mitigate his typical survivability advantage. Tink and Wolf have flexible, noncommittal tools that extend into the midrange space and confirm into strong floaty punishes/kill confirms, adequate control of their own space, and they're mobile enough that Mewtwo can't easily outmaneuver them until he can create an advantaged position. Lasers are difficult to counteract effectively (limited laser lifespan works in Wolf's favor here), and Tink's bombs are somewhat resistant to his usual strengths in item play (shield->WD catch doesn't work reliably and he can't swat them unless you're willing to commit to a tipper utilt, plus Tink likes to throw from positions that are difficult to react to in time for a raw WD catch). Even so, if Mewtwo gets a read or the opponent is pushed into a situation where they can't utilize those tools effectively then Mewtwo can get a lot of mileage off of that opening.

Most characters run into some issue or combination of issues in the Mewtwo matchup wherein they're unable to adequately contain him, get outboxed in close quarters, can't keep up and thus give him too much opportunity to charge Shadow Ball, can't kill him, get bullied too hard in punishes/edgeguards, etc. If few enough of these things hold true then you can potentially argue for an evenish matchup given sufficient strengths in other areas, otherwise you're probably in for a bad time. Link for example is slow, loses at midrange (boomerang is easy to navigate around) and risks getting outboxed by Mewtwo's stronger close-quarters pressure, can't reliably kill (dthrow->dair isn't real), and gets wrecked by corner carry into edgeguards. He does have tools that can work in this matchup, but he has to work harder and play better to keep up with Mewtwo.

Even if say oddball stuff like Zard hangs around in PM meta, I feel something like that would be a bigger hindrance to Mewtwo viability than the Meta being essentially 6 chars, since the other 5 would likely be extremely tasty for him to to combo to death from fairly minor mistakes (3 spacies, MK, and Diddy)

Zard is jokes. His movement is equal or worse in pretty much every metric (Mewtwo arguably has a better dashdance, despite what Zard's higher dash/runspeeds might suggest. Zard's bulk is an issue, whereas Mewtwo's dash is fairly generous in terms of hurtbox displacement), he can't reliably confirm elevator combos on Mewtwo, and he gets fat shamed into free edgeguards very easily. If I was to point to somewhat annoying oddballs (ie still even at worst imo), it'd be the likes of Pikachu and maybe Squirtle.

 

[bboss]

IMO, the best 3 characters in the game for 3.6 are Metaknight, Wolf and Fox

I have talked to many top players and the general consensus is that #1 is MK, #2 is Wolf, and #3 is Diddy. I don't know about fox, his upsmash was nerfed in both kb and damage, and his shine was also nerfed.

 

[DMG]

It seems solid that the top 4 combination of chars in PM is MK, Fox, Wolf, and Diddy. I don't think it particularly matters how you order them, but you could probably argue that Diddy is the most volatile of the choices while MK is probably the safest choice (MU spread wise and also potential meta / MU changes in the future). Outside of top 4, I do not believe there's a strong consensus for say top 10 because there are quite a few characters where the representation is not adequately spread out (how many top tier Lucas mains do you know of across America? etc)

Just about everyone agrees on top 4 though, maybe some odd/infrequent opinions place Fox or Diddy much lower but for the most part that appears to be the top 4 in PM.

 

[bboss]

Do you guys think Snake is top 10?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

yeah snake has the magical ability to be top 10 while having only 4 winning matchups



/s

but yeah snake is near the outside cusp of top 10 because of sticky and dair

 

[bboss]

yeah snake has the magical ability to be top 10 while having only 4 winning matchups



/s

but yeah snake is near the outside cusp of top 10 because of sticky and dair

Only 4 winning matchups? Since when? Snake only has like 10 bad matchups. He destroys puff, Samus, Zelda, Peach, Squirtle, etc.

 

[DMG]

Snake is a total meme. He's supposed to lose to like half the cast, but has results of a top 5 character.

Edit: Emphasis on "Supposed"

 

[Player -0]

Ness meme is swag too.

 

[bboss]

Ness meme is swag too.

But Snake wins Snake Ness... hehe...

 

[eideeiit]

idk, unordered within tiers

A-tier: can take anyone and anything, lose very rarely
B-tier: can take nearly anyone, but taking something big would be an upset, lose rarely
C-tier: can take anyone if the stars align, lose occasionally

A+: Thunderz

A: Sosa , Malachi , Gallo , Switch , Hyperflame , Jose V , Boringman , Junebug , Lunchables , Mr. Lz ,

B: Ripple , Flipp , Professor Pro , Dirtboy , DVD , Aidan , Frozen , Marshall ,

C: Sothe , Hero of Time , StereoKidd , Aion , Jason Waterfalls

 

[bboss]

Flipps better than malachi gallo jose boringman mr lz ripple prof pro dirtboy dvd aidan frozen marshal. So yeah Snake / Flipp should be higher... i dont really understand the concept of this tier list tho... is it player or character based?

 

[eideeiit]

It's just a quick tier list of the best players, I just put in the chars for some reason. And do notice the list is unordered within tiers.

Flipps better than malachi gallo jose boringman mr lz

and this part is just plain wrong IMO. Though I haven't been following Flipp all that closely. All I know is he's done very little ever since Big Balc and that Kycse overtook him in the CT PR at some point.

I also may be overrating Aidan because he's been on the come up but idk. Lists like this are bound to be super subjective.

 

[Ripple]

I'm definitely a C tier player due to character choice

 

[eideeiit]

Oh yea my bad

Ooze tier: Ripple

 

[bboss]

and this part is just plain wrong IMO. Though I haven't been following Flipp all that closely. All I know is he's done very little ever since Big Balc and that Kycse overtook him in the CT PR at some point.

Flipp won Gauntlet 3 Gauntlet 4 SuperNova and got 2nd at Big Balc to Junebug. Hes gotten a heck of a lot better in the past year.
As for Ripple its not like he doesnt play other characters, yes he plays d3 but he also has a very good zero suit. And he beat hbox at big house 4 singles. I think any player in PM can take a character that is considered low-tier and do fairly well with them.

 

[ilysm]

Hm. This thread looks a bit different.

So I was recently told that Samus has a largely even MU spread, with a couple wins and a couple bad losses, and it got me thinking about how her numbers indicate consistency, and that got me thinking about volatility. I'm starting to consider a character's consistency a lot more in tier lists and in the ongoing debate over whether it's necessary to have a secondary. How do you guys think volatility in a MU spread should be counted in terms of how high on the tier list they are?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I would say a character is more viable the less their success in bracket is dependent on luck.

 

[bboss]

Im really confused
What does that mean?

 

[ilysm]

It means that some characters can have a decent matchup spread but lose certain matchups by such a significant margin that their success can be seen as dependent on "luck"; i.e, who you end up needing to play against in any given bracket. I'll use the example of Ice Climbers, since I understand them the best in this context. Ice Climbers, like most characters in this game, have a couple good winning matchups, a couple losing matchups, and a fair amount of even or near-even matchups. However, they have certain matchups (Peach, Mewtwo, Zelda, and Toon Link) that become almost excessively difficult to play at a high level. People perceive this as inherently limiting because sometimes it seems as though these matchups are so difficult that the skill level of the players matters comparatively less.

I'm not sure if I'd characterize this as entirely "luck-dependent", but it definitely makes things harder for a player to succeed consistently, and those two things look super similar. I think this is one of the strongest arguments for having any kind of secondary at all, actually.

 

[Bleck]

fox mccloud etc

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

in pm brackets fox is actually a super volatile character lmao

 

[Journal]

God this thread has been so dead since the PMDT stopped development. Which I guess is okay, I get more work done.

 

[Zach777]

We can't whine in hopes of getting characters buffed/nerfed. Therefore interest died.

 

[Soft Serve]

Alternatively, most of the more vocal players in here retired and the rest just play the game and talk about it in a constructive point elsewhere, like character discords

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

the only real action in this thread back in the day was when people would argue about whether or not buffs were deserved and nothing really actually got done but there was a lot of fun name-calling

also this is the only place where oracle would actually post which was fun

also circa 3.02 people were sayign that wolf was probably going to become the best character in the game and look where we are now